Katrina Crane: She's a Good Witch!

[mad_typist]

Use this topic to discuss your thoughts on Katrina, a.k.a. Mrs. Ichabod Crane. I worry that she's a little too saintly right now, so I hope she becomes more well rounded character when she inevitably gets pulled into the modern world.

[joshleejosh]

I just hope she can go for more than 10 minutes without being kidnapped or imprisoned.

[riley702]

Gotta say she's the weakest link here by a long shot. 

[HalcyonDays]

Gotta say she's the weakest link here by a long shot.

I totally agree, and I'm concerned that season 2 will have an increased presence of her character.

I just hope she can go for more than 10 minutes without being kidnapped or imprisoned.

This made me laugh. I just want to see something that would indicate that she is supposed to be a powerful witch. Anything actually.

Edited April 12, 2014 by HalcyonDays

[methodwriter85]

I would just like to see Katrina resemble an actual person instead of a 3-d carboard cutout from a Harlequinn romance novel.

[Skyline]

I'm not looking forward to her expanded role next season.

[rubyred]

After the disappointing "gotcha!" moment when I thought she'd actually died and we'd be delivered from her whisper-acting, I'm losing hope that they are going to actually go for it and make Katrina evil. She has been satisfyingly shady all along, culminating in the Mary Welles "accidental" death reveal (I maintain Katrina tripped her on the way down). But in "Deliverance" she was in full innocent damsel mode, with not much irony or sideye.

 

The story could be saved if we found out (I don't know how, since Katrina is an unreliable witness) that she originally thought Abraham was the Witness and so targeted him for her encorcellment, only to belatedly realize the Witness was Crane and redirect her charms in that direction. Like in HP, when it was revealed that the Chosen One could have been Neville instead of Harry (mindboggling). Thus Katrina set off the whole Four Horsemen thing to begin with because she was so clumsy with her magicks that she identified the wrong guy.

 

I also want her to die because we'd get Headless back - OG Headless, angry and vengeful, instead of this drippy emo sack pining after Katrina. We'd never have to see his face again! (The actor but is fine this character is a dead end.)

[Dobian]

I agree, the Headless Horseman was this monster out of a nightmare the first season.  You couldn't kill it and it never stopped coming.  They wrecked it by sticking a head on him and making him want a girlfriend.  Meh.

[Julia]

Like in HP, when it was revealed that the Chosen One could have been Neville instead of Harry (mindboggling). Thus Katrina set off the whole Four Horsemen thing to begin with because she was so clumsy with her magicks that she identified the wrong guy.

 

And Neville actually did end up killing him, so he was the chosen one after all, just not the one Voldemort chose.

 

I agree, at some point they have to address the fact that Katrina has made a number of very poor choices.

[Dobian]

I think Neville gets an assist on killing Voldemort, he killed his snake.  Harry was like a starting pitcher and got the win, Neville got the save.  But back to Katrina, is she a good witch?  Good as in, if I needed a witch in a pinch I'd take Katrina?  I haven't seen her do many really impressive feats of magic since she's been on the show.  She's mostly just all helpless.  Where are all these great magic powers?  Why can't she wave her hand and set Henry on fire?  Oh right, he's her "son".  Blech.  Come on, let's see some magic!  Where's Hermione, is she available for this show?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Dobian

[CertainJewel]

Hi all! First time poster in this thread. Oh Katrina Katrina! It would be far more interesting for her to be more like Katrina is in the real story, The Legend of Sleepy Hallow by Washington Irving. She was "coquettish" and played Brom (Abraham Van Brunt) and Ichabod. She broke Ichabod's heart as he wanted to marry her. He ran off and was chased by the headless horseman. If she wasn't so needy and was more duplicitous I think I would be more interested in her. As it is I fast forward most of her scenes.

I don't have a problem with Ichy being married to Katrina but I do have a problem with her being the damsel in distress with Ichy saving her.

This last episode with the pregnant by a demon trope. Honestly?! What lazy writing! I'm just happy that is done and over with in one episode.

[formerlyfreedom]

A few posts were moved from her over to Speculation: What Do You Think Will Happen as they were about Katrina and Henry with other thoughts as well.

[DeLurker]

How do you solve a problem like Katrina?

 

Acting wise on Sleepy Hollow, I find Katia Winters to be a black hole, absorbing all the scenes she is in until they turn into a void. But with more information coming out about the casting and how TPTB and writers clearly are enamored with her character, I'm wondering if KW is actually decent, but sucked into TPTB's Katrinacentric Lurve herself?

 

Is anyone familiar with Katia Winter's work outside of Sleepy Hollow?  Does she have any acting skills?  I've looked at her IMDB and haven't seen anything she's been in myself.

[CooperTV]

Is anyone familiar with Katia Winter's work outside of Sleepy Hollow?  Does she have any acting skills?  I've looked at her IMDB and haven't seen anything she's been in myself.

 

I watched Swedish murder mystery Crimes of Passion: Tragedy on a Country Churchyard with her in it. She was playing some blonde femme fatale. She wasn't very good, I thought.

[BigEasygirl]

I agree, the Headless Horseman was this monster out of a nightmare the first season.  You couldn't kill it and it never stopped coming.  They wrecked it by sticking a head on him and making him want a girlfriend.  Meh.

 

I miss headless Headless soooooo much!!!!!    headless Headless>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Katrina's jilted ex.

[BigEasygirl]

OMG!  Somebody on twitter called Katrina "StruggleWitch."   LMAO!!!!     And then this,

 

CherryCinnaMoon ‏@CherryCinnaMoon 2m2 minutes ago

RT '@tara_melissa abbie got 99 problems and that witch ain't one #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter' #SleepyHollow  

Edited November 11, 2014 by Reese

[Latverian Diplomat]

I was surprised, with all the schmooping about future children in her dream, and the evil pregnancy aspect of her poisoning, that "Deliverance" didn't end with unable to bear children. At last, Henry would do something that leaves a mark, and that bitter irony would take away some of their enthusiasm for Anakin-Skywalkering Henry.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[Julia]

I agree, the Headless Horseman was this monster out of a nightmare the first season. You couldn't kill it and it never stopped coming. They wrecked it by sticking a head on him and making him want a girlfriend. Meh.

This. I thought it was genius that they offered him Katrina in return for becoming something that wasn't even the same species as Katrina, sort of like his century's John Cho (only not as smart because hello, Katrina). Now the first horseman is the thuggish football player from a John Hughes movie, and Henry's a mulish griefer. As soon as girl with a shiny car who talks about cankles and the evil hall monitor show up we've got ourselves a very special teen apocalypse.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Julia

[Dobian]

Continuing on the theme of Katrina's merits as a witch, in this latest episode, Katrina gets knocked on her butt and Abbie has to finish the spell to set the heart on fire.  So if Abbie can pull off doing spells, what do they need Katrina for except as a magic consultant?

[phoenics]

Continuing on the theme of Katrina's merits as a witch, in this latest episode, Katrina gets knocked on her butt and Abbie has to finish the spell to set the heart on fire.  So if Abbie can pull off doing spells, what do they need Katrina for except as a magic consultant?

And she can do that from the ghostly realm...

I'm just sayin...

[ChelseaNH]

Katrina zapped Abraham to keep him from killing Ichabod at the end of The Weeping Lady, so she can do magic without incantations (when the plot requires it).

[amensisterfriend]

What frustrates me about Katrina is that we know from Abby and Jenny--and even short-lived characters like the dearly departed Caroline---that these writers are capable of creating engaging, likable yet relatably imperfect female characters. Katrina, though, just comes across like a character who the writers spent no time defining whatsoever beyond "Ichabod's true luv and, er, some sort of witch..." As others have said, she has no set personality whatsoever and ends up becoming whoever that week's plot needs her to be. (She reminds me of Grimm's Juliette and Criminal Minds' JJ in her personality-challenged blandness...though at least in this case we can cling to the hope that Katrina's going to become totally evil and hence slightly more interesting!)  I get that the actress isn't exactly Emmy worthy, but IMO she's been given a character who's rages from an underwritten cipher to an inconsistently written annoyance. 

[phoenics]

What frustrates me about Katrina is that we know from Abby and Jenny--and even short-lived characters like the dearly departed Caroline---that these writers are capable of creating engaging, likable yet relatably imperfect female characters. Katrina, though, just comes across like a character who the writers spent no time defining whatsoever beyond "Ichabod's true luv and, er, some sort of witch..." As others have said, she has no set personality whatsoever and ends up becoming whoever that week's plot needs her to be. (She reminds me of Grimm's Juliette and Criminal Minds' JJ in her personality-challenged blandness...though at least in this case we can cling to the hope that Katrina's going to become totally evil and hence slightly more interesting!)  I get that the actress isn't exactly Emmy worthy, but IMO she's been given a character who's rages from an underwritten cipher to an inconsistently written annoyance.

I wonder if this is because for the other characters, the other actors are SO GOOD that they elevate the material? But Katia cannot elevate it? Thus what you see is what you get?

I still think Katrina is a terribly wrought character - I wish the writers had continued with their original plan to kill her off in the pilot.

[ChelseaNH]

I got to thinking about Katrina this morning and what it was about the execution of her character that didn't work.  I realized that she still feels like a prop rather than a full character in part because she's always on mission.  She spends hundreds of years languishing in Purgatory, subsisting on the hope that one day Ichabod will wake up again.  When he does wake and they can see each other again, she spends all her time spouting exposition about the latest threat.  When she decides that she needs to go back to Abraham to protect Ichabod, she's all resolute and begging Ichabod to understand.  Where is her sense of frustration and loss?  Where is the part of her that's screaming "It's not fair"?

 

And then there's Henry.  Yes, she wants to save him -- lots of guilt and protective instinct there.  But does she never feel the urge to yell at him or shake some sense into him?  I'm fairly certain that parents can both love their children and find them extremely irritating at times, and Henry is such a pill when he's not being outright evil.

 

Ichabod didn't have to be the perfect husband who would forgive Katrina's lack of openness and love her just the same as he did before he found out.  He was allowed to be hurt and suspicious and confused, and the relationship between them was not automatically fixed.  If Katrina is going to be a character, she too needs to have a full range of human emotions, not just the ones convenient to the plot.

[HalcyonDays]

I understand what you are saying, ChelseaNH, and I agree - the character was not fleshed out by the writers at all. The first season, she was literally an exposition vehicle. The writers only used her to move the plot along and explain things. However, as they were doing this, they totally cast a shadiness over her character. The withholding of information, the fact that she popped up at convenient times, her crying as opposed to - I don't know - actually explaining something. I originally thought for the longest time --> shady. But I think the writers just made a mistake for her character. I was hoping for evil, because it would be fun, but alas no.

 

Now season 2 is another matter. The writers didn't bother to explain WHY she was so shady. Ichabod just dismissed it as "well, you had to because of the war." No, no, NO! There is so much he needs to be asking, and I hate the writers for not going there. I don't care if she really did it for the greater good - she needs to explain herself and Ichabod just letting it slide bothers me. I mean, when Ichabod shows up in Purgatory, just spout it out already. Don't weep and stall.

 

With the second season, we have her spouting things like "My opinion matter and no one elses does." How would THAT endear her to the fans. Not me. Just lousy lousy writing. Then add in her lack of magical ability (which was never explained - apparently it's due to those many years in Purgatory) and the fact that she always needs rescuing AND she is delusional about her son, it's hard to give her any sympathy.

 

I wanted to see kick-ass Katrina. I really did. Instead, we get a damsel without any powers who needs to be rescued every second episode, and does not provide any use to Team Witness. The writers are at fault for this, just like they are at fault for totally decimating Ichabod himself.

[DeLurker]

ChelseaNH - all valid points, but TPTB seem to think Katrina has been fully developed and all the nuances you mention are in play.  I disagree with them, but...

 

ETA:  Ditto to HalcyonDays' post.

Edited November 21, 2014 by DeLurker

[phoenics]

I got to thinking about Katrina this morning and what it was about the execution of her character that didn't work.  I realized that she still feels like a prop rather than a full character in part because she's always on mission.  She spends hundreds of years languishing in Purgatory, subsisting on the hope that one day Ichabod will wake up again.  When he does wake and they can see each other again, she spends all her time spouting exposition about the latest threat.  When she decides that she needs to go back to Abraham to protect Ichabod, she's all resolute and begging Ichabod to understand.  Where is her sense of frustration and loss?  Where is the part of her that's screaming "It's not fair"?

 

And then there's Henry.  Yes, she wants to save him -- lots of guilt and protective instinct there.  But does she never feel the urge to yell at him or shake some sense into him?  I'm fairly certain that parents can both love their children and find them extremely irritating at times, and Henry is such a pill when he's not being outright evil.

 

Ichabod didn't have to be the perfect husband who would forgive Katrina's lack of openness and love her just the same as he did before he found out.  He was allowed to be hurt and suspicious and confused, and the relationship between them was not automatically fixed.  If Katrina is going to be a character, she too needs to have a full range of human emotions, not just the ones convenient to the plot.

Do you think this is because the writers only see Katrina as a plot device and not a fully realized character? Because that's where it seems to be coming from... a lot of the character whiplash and shadiness - which tends to happen when writers see a character as a plot device. As much as I complain about how Abbie as a character is treated (all of the racial/sexual tropes that the writers let happen to her), I think Katrina suffers from being used as a plot device.

I think there is a reason for this though and it can be laid at the feet of the show premise. It's very hard to have a "wife"/true love character on a show that isn't part of the 2 leads on the show. I think a LOT of the issues with Katrina actually stem from trying to fit her into a show that she probably shouldn't have been on for so long. I think the writers made a mistake not killing her off in the pilot as originally planned or in the season finale earlier this year.

So - since they didn't do that - and decided to expand the character more this year, the character is in a tough spot. One, she's the perpetual third wheel to Ichabbie and if she isn't and the writers try to elevate her, the fan backlash tanks ratings. Two, by trying to expand the character without really tying her to the epic shadiness from S1 and trying to pretend that all of that shady red herring stuff never happened, the writers are basically being dishonest with the fans about the character - which just creates resentment. When you couple that with the backgrounding of Jenny/Irving, well it's a recipe for disaster.

Also - question: can anyone name ANY other show with a male lead and a female lead in a "partnership" kind of show where one of the leads is married and that marriage is attempted to be shown in a big way as "epic love"? Because I can't think of one... the only one that came close was Law and Order: SVU - but they never showed the marriage or wife much at all. At ALL. They focused on the partnership at all costs.

Anyone know of one I missed?

[DeLurker]

I can't think of any since being dedicated to your job means being all-about-the-job to the point of fracturing or not having personal relationships (in tv land).

[HalcyonDays]

Also - question: can anyone name ANY other show with a male lead and a female lead in a "partnership" kind of show where one of the leads is married and that marriage is attempted to be shown in a big way as "epic love"? Because I can't think of one... the only one that came close was Law and Order: SVU - but they never showed the marriage or wife much at all. At ALL. They focused on the partnership at all costs.

 

I can't think of any show either, honestly. I really can't, but then I don't watch a huge mess of shows either. The problem (well, not really, just happenstance) with this whole thing is that the show commited to the marriage, but didn't anticipate two things. The smoking fucking chemistry between Mison and Beharie, and the complete LACK of chemistry between Winter and Mison. I mean, it's like night and day. It really is. If Mison and Beharie didn't have this level of connection, we wouldn't be commenting on the wife as much as we are (however, the storylines still suck), and there would be no Ichabbie mentions at all (there probably wouldn't be much of a show either, but I digress). If there was a bit of something between Ichabod and Katrina, then we could accept the grande romance, but there is nothing. When I get more of a sexual vibe when Abbie wipes foam off of Ichabod's mouth, as opposed to the man himself being naked in bed with the wife, what does that tell you? Again, that's just me.

[phoenics]

But here's the thing... what show EVER tries to have or sell a romance without ever chemistry testing the "romantic pair"?

Katia and Tom never chem tested. Nicole and Tom DID. Tom wouldn't have gotten the part without his chemistry with Nicole.

I think you are right that the show runners didn't expect Ichabbie to be so hot - clearly in response to that fear they left Katrina alive - thinking that Ichatrina would boost the show because they were afraid Ichabbie would not carry it. Even though they chemtested Tom and Nicole. And didn't chemtest Katia and Tom.

Seriously - WHAT SHOW ever does that@?!

I don't think they ever really planned to play up the Ichatrina romance in S1 - clearly they cannot write it very well at all. So now, we're seeing a textbook of silly harlequin tropes and sexist tropes all over the place - all in an effort to prop up Ichatrina...

It makes me so angry because the show didn't need Ichatrina - or Katrina - and the show is suffering by trying to shoehorn her into things. She was never meant to be here this long. But Goffman.

That's why the character is so poorly written - she wasn't originally conceived to be a fully fleshed character - and her characterization is so 3 centuries ago. With Ichabod it's charming (well when he's not being a jerk to Abbie). That's what makes him special. Throwing Katrina into it with him suddenly makes Ichabod less special - he's not as sympathetic with such a strong tie to his past.

Ugh - I hate this season.

[ChelseaNH]

Do you think this is because the writers only see Katrina as a plot device and not a fully realized character?

 

This show's idea of plot is: cute banter, threat, historical flashback, magical MacGuffin, fight scene, victory lap, Henry looking menacing.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Everything is a potential plot device because plot is just something you get through.  People talk about K&O shows like Fringe, which I've never watched, but I do watch Hawaii Five-0 and it's the same deal:  the show has its charms, but great plotting is not among them.

[fantique]

KW also needs to stop turning into a revolutionary romance damsel with her breathy acting with TM and sometimes NJ. She's ok with everyone else, so I don't get it. Also she needs to blink and stop the weepy eyes. It makes her look weak in a not very interesting way.

 

Do you think this is because the writers only see Katrina as a plot device and not a fully realized character?

 

So - since they didn't do that - and decided to expand the character more this year, the character is in a tough spot. One, she's the perpetual third wheel to Ichabbie and if she isn't and the writers try to elevate her, the fan backlash tanks ratings. Two, by trying to expand the character without really tying her to the epic shadiness from S1 and trying to pretend that all of that shady red herring stuff never happened, the writers are basically being dishonest with the fans about the character - which just creates resentment. When you couple that with the backgrounding of Jenny/Irving, well it's a recipe for disaster.

Yes to your question.

The thing about being a third wheel is that it could have been done without a sense of Abbie vs Katrina. It could have been about her issues of not feeling secure in her role on the team because her powers are still weak and Abbie and Crane don't even need words to communicate anymore. Then they could have shown her save whoever and have her confess that she wasn't sure about her abilities and have the whole team (including Jenny and Irving) say she is an asset. When KW said at comic con that Katrina's doubts towards their partnership is more centred around the fact that she feels guilty for not being by his side, I was glad because I thought they would avoid the pettiness... I know, I know, I am too naive.

 

What's weird is that they've given her a strange sense of entitlement when it comes to being a part of team witness. Like she thinks this is her family's fight. She should be more about helping because she wants her husband alive while realising this is about the Witnesses. Funnily, while I think she's a goof and not necessarily a bad person, I get the vibes that KW's acting choices are sometimes coloured by a subconscious resentment on the fact that Abbie is front and centre and that people like her more. For example in that same interview, she didn't realise she had a look that was less than welcoming when looking at Crane and Abbie hug. I also sense that same weird sense of entitlement in her acting. I also don't like she's happy with her character's development because even when putting the tropes aside (if someone is not exposed to them or don't know what they are -like me-, they don't realise it's a trope), her character comes across as incompetent (magic keeps draining her), idiotic (still not over that fucking note saying absolutely nothing about her "spying", nevermind the fact that it took this long for her to send sone) and dishonest. Last episode was the first time I saw her as doing the right thing and being proactive. Most actions before were stupid and counterproductive. Staying with Abraham accomplished too little and going back did not help, bonus for trying but she did not manage to stop moloch. I think that was a mistake, unless they don't see her being here in the long term. It makes it harder and harder for people to accept her in the team dynamic.

Edited November 22, 2014 by fantique

[phoenics]

This show's idea of plot is: cute banter, threat, historical flashback, magical MacGuffin, fight scene, victory lap, Henry looking menacing.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Everything is a potential plot device because plot is just something you get through.  People talk about K&O shows like Fringe, which I've never watched, but I do watch Hawaii Five-0 and it's the same deal:  the show has its charms, but great plotting is not among them.

It wasn't like that last season - it was so much better. The magical MacGuffin stuff is really overused this season - it's bad, I agree.

[phoenics]

KW also needs to stop turning into a revolutionary romance damsel with her breathy acting with TM and sometimes NJ. She's ok with everyone else, so I don't get it. Also she needs to blink and stop the weepy eyes. It makes her look weak in a not very interesting way.

 

Yes to your question.

The thing about being a third wheel is that it could have been done without a sense of Abbie vs Katrina. It could have been about her issues of not feeling secure in her role on the team because her powers are still weak and Abbie and Crane don't even need words to communicate anymore. Then they could have shown her save whoever and have her confess that she wasn't sure about her abilities and have the whole team (including Jenny and Irving) say she is an asset. When KW said at comic con that Katrina's doubts towards their partnership is more centred around the fact that she feels guilty for not being by his side, I was glad because I thought they would avoid the pettiness... I know, I know, I am too naive.

 

What's weird is that they've given her a strange sense of entitlement when it comes to being a part of team witness. Like she thinks this is her family's fight. She should be more about helping because she wants her husband alive while realising this is about the Witnesses. Funnily, while I think she's a goof and not necessarily a bad person, I get the vibes that KW's acting choices are sometimes coloured by a subconscious resentment on the fact that Abbie is front and centre and that people like her more. For example in that same interview, she didn't realise she had a look that was less than welcoming when looking at Crane and Abbie hug. I also sense that same weird sense of entitlement in her acting. I also don't like she's happy with her character's development because even when putting the tropes aside (if someone is not exposed to them or don't know what they are -like me-, they don't realise it's a trope), her character comes across as incompetent (magic keeps draining her), idiotic (still not over that fucking note saying absolutely nothing about her "spying", nevermind the fact that it took this long for her to send sone) and dishonest. Last episode was the first time I saw her as doing the right thing and being proactive. Most actions before were stupid and counterproductive. Staying with Abraham accomplished too little and going back did not help, bonus for trying but she did not manage to stop moloch. I think that was a mistake, unless they don't see her being here in the long term. It makes it harder and harder for people to accept her in the team dynamic.

First of all - are you in my head? Because I had a similar thought about KW after reading an interview where she said that she wanted to get into present day situations and have reactions to them. I remember thinking - you want to be just like Ichabod Crane? Then I realized that she just wanted screen time, lol. I do think she likely has an subconscious entitlement cropping up. In any other show where you're in the "primary romantic couple", you'd be the lead. Except Abbie is the lead - and in any other show SHE'd be the romantic lead. This goes back to my theory that the writers never should have kept Katrina alive at the end of the pilot.

And then there is one scene right before the Abbie confrontation where she kind of barges right into the room when Ichabbie is having a discussion and I remember resenting it. And when I saw that comic cover with Katrina fore fronted before Abbie it made my blood boil - because it brought up issues from this episode.. having Katrina inserted into the group as an equal to Abbie - when she isn't. She's the wife of one of the Witnesses - but Irving and Jenny are as important to this as she is. I felt the fight between her and Abbie actually brought Abbie down a bit - because Katrina shouldn't get a vote in what the witnesses do. She isn't equal to them in this fight. She can be an ally if she could get down off of her high horse... but...

[RiddleyWalker]

The show is going a different direction than I'd hoped, but I'm starting to see a lot of humorous potential with Katrina. Acceptance is the final stage of grief they say and as the "Terminator" Headless Horseman is unlikely to return, I wrote this short comedy fanfic today (with apologies to Terry Pratchett) with that in mind. If nothing else, it was strangely cathartic.

 

This is a scene at the Headless house with Abraham and Katrina who are now married after she goes to the "Dark Side." Again, this is (well it's meant to be) humorous and I riff on the Terry Pratchett/Discworld "Death" quite a bit. If anyone reads it let me know what you think...https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByZS5seVV5x_WWZjM1NpVDdnSm8/view?usp=sharing

Edited November 23, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[HalcyonDays]

And then there is one scene right before the Abbie confrontation where she kind of barges right into the room when Ichabbie is having a discussion and I remember resenting it. And when I saw that comic cover with Katrina fore fronted before Abbie it made my blood boil - because it brought up issues from this episode.. having Katrina inserted into the group as an equal to Abbie - when she isn't. She's the wife of one of the Witnesses - but Irving and Jenny are as important to this as she is. I felt the fight between her and Abbie actually brought Abbie down a bit - because Katrina shouldn't get a vote in what the witnesses do. She isn't equal to them in this fight. She can be an ally if she could get down off of her high horse... but...

 

I totally agree with this - what the fuck does Katrina have a say in the matters of Team Witness. I'm sorry, but only the two matter. Jenny may offer her opinion, Irving may offer his opinion, Katrina may offer hers,  but it boils down to two votes - Abbie and Ichabod.

 

I pointed out in the media thread that the comic cover showed prominent Katrina, but the story was pure Ichabbie - which pisses me off, but whatever..(sorry, the cover, not the story..)

 

You know season 1, I really wanted to see an evil Katrina. I wanted more for the character and the actress. But now? I couldn't kill her fast enough. Jesus, just get the fuck out of my TV screen. Kill her and be done. And show writers, I know you are clueless, but THIS is why your ratings suck. Because we know better,  and recognize that the show that was quirkily amazing, is no longer here. Bring it back, SVP.

[Yolapukka]

I finally put my finger on what other TV character Katrina reminded me of, it's Deanna Troi on Star Trek, TNG, a character I was hot & cold on, or more accurately lukewarm and cold, only with Katrina it's mostly cold. She projects the same smug air of knowing best and knowing all and she also drones on too damn much as well.

Edited November 23, 2014 by yuggapukka

[DJG1122]

 I get the vibes that KW's acting choices are sometimes coloured by a subconscious resentment on the fact that Abbie is front and centre and that people like her more.

 

Maybe not so subconscious. Neil Jackson, in the interview referenced upthread, said Katia was bored with her character and is happy her role has been expanded. Seems to me that someone is doing whatever it takes to make Katia happy and the entire cast knows this.

[DJG1122]

 

 

 

 

This is a scene at the Headless house with Abraham and Katrina who are now married after she goes to the "Dark Side." Again, this is (well it's meant to be) humorous and I riff on the Terry Pratchett/Discworld "Death" quite a bit. If anyone reads it let me know what you think

 

Priceless!!!

[netlyon2]

 

 

What's weird is that they've given her a strange sense of entitlement when it comes to being a part of team witness. Like she thinks this is her family's fight. She should be more about helping because she wants her husband alive while realising this is about the Witnesses. [snip] I also don't like she's happy with her character's development because even when putting the tropes aside (if someone is not exposed to them or don't know what they are -like me-, they don't realise it's a trope), her character comes across as incompetent (magic keeps draining her), idiotic (still not over that fucking note saying absolutely nothing about her "spying", nevermind the fact that it took this long for her to send sone) and dishonest. Last episode was the first time I saw her as doing the right thing and being proactive. Most actions before were stupid and counterproductive. Staying with Abraham accomplished too little and going back did not help, bonus for trying but she did not manage to stop moloch. I think that was a mistake, unless they don't see her being here in the long term. It makes it harder and harder for people to accept her in the team dynamic.

I actually would be okay with Katrina standing up for her right to be a part of Team Witness; after all, she was a part of Washington's Team Witness, cast the spell that preserved Ichabod's life, had to give up her son as a result (coven hunt), and spent hundreds of years in Purgatory.  To me, she definitely earned her seat at the table.  However, there are two big problems with the execution:

1. She's a member of Team Witness, not a Witness herself, and she needs to remember that.  She sacrificed and lost out big, but so has everyone with a seat at the table (except for Hawley, who is going through his initiation now).  We have seen how both Jenny and Irving have suffered and sacrificed in this fight, so it's pretty off-putting when the character and the writers (and perhaps even the actress) act as though Katrina should have more influence than anyone else.  There are two heads of the table for Team Witness, and those seats are for Abbie and Ichabod.  Fall back, Struggle Witch.
2. And that's the other problem:  Katrina's not competent.  I don't need her to be a BAMF (we already have three on the team), but I do need for her to be reliable and effective.  If the audience (and Abbie, for that matter) is expected to trust her to get the job done on her solo missions, then make her trustworthy and able.  To draw an Orphan Black parallel (mild general spoilers): 
   I know that Mrs. S has her own thing going on, but I trust that those interests will largely align with the Clone Club's, particularly Sara's.  The show had created this confidence in me by showing that she (a) can get things done and (b) will fight to protect Sara and Kira.  With Katrina, I have yet to see (a) happen in the present and (b) is constantly suspect because she is so shady and secretive.

 

 

And then there is one scene right before the Abbie confrontation where she kind of barges right into the room when Ichabbie is having a discussion and I remember resenting it.

It's funny, I was a little taken aback when Abbie barged into the cabin during the Ichatrina/Bachelor cold open and thought, "Hey, Mills, he's got his wife back now, so you've gotta knock."  But when Katrina pushes into a Witness conversation, even when they ask her opinion, I just get plain irritated and want her to have a seat!

 

I've realized that skipping the opening credits does help me be more tolerant of the character.  Talk about the comics covers; homegirl has like 6 shots in the opening credits, more than Ichabod and way more than Abbie.  And while I used to giggle at her character/actress credits shot (once someone at TWOP pointed out how shifty she looks), now I have no time for it.  Look at the damn camera, Katrina.  Seriously, everyone else looks at the camera.  The guy with NO HEAD looks at the camera*; you can do it too!

 

* I guess I should be thankful that he's still Headless in the credits.

Edited November 23, 2014 by netlyon2

[fantique]

Maybe not so subconscious. Neil Jackson, in the interview referenced upthread, said Katia was bored with her character and is happy her role has been expanded. Seems to me that someone is doing whatever it takes to make Katia happy and the entire cast knows this.

Hmm... While I don't doubt the writers like KW and want to give her stuff to do, I don't think it's this "everyone must do everything to keep her happy" thing going on. She's getting fourth billing after TM, NB and OJ. I don't think it's about that. I just think they were so conscious of the lack of believability in their couple and their plot hinges on us buying their love so we get invested. Since even if they want to make her go evil, it has to leave a mark. We should feel betrayed along with the team. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

Maybe not so subconscious. Neil Jackson, in the interview referenced upthread, said Katia was bored with her character and is happy her role has been expanded. Seems to me that someone is doing whatever it takes to make Katia happy and the entire cast knows this.

 

Hmm... While I don't doubt the writers like KW and want to give her stuff to do, I don't think it's this "everyone must do everything to keep her happy" thing going on. She's getting fourth billing after TM, NB and OJ. I don't think it's about that. I just think they were so conscious of the lack of believability in their couple and their plot hinges on us buying their love so we get invested. Since even if they want to make her go evil, it has to leave a mark. We should feel betrayed along with the team. 

 

This is why I think she is Goffman's muse, TBH. During season 1, article after article talked about how wonderful Mison and Beharie were, how amazing the chemistry is and almost always (I'd say 85% of the time), mentioned that Katrina was a drag on the show and her behaviour was incredibly suspect.

 

Goffman is quoted as saying that Katrina is his favourite character and frequently gushes over her in interviews, etc. But here is the problem - if the vast majority of the fans don't care for KC, and it is clear that more focus on her is hurting the rest of the show and the characters, and reviews over and over again point to her being a large reason for it, then odds are we (and the reviewers) are right. But he has put his head in the sand and dismissed us as 'haters' because we don't get it.

 

Declining ratings don't lie. A large number of negative reviews don't lie. And here in these threads, most of us are saying the exact same things. So it's not us or our perception or our inability to get it. I get that you can't tool a show to completely win everyone over, but the show is alienating a large part of its viewing audience. A showrunner who wants to keep their job would see this, unless there is something else influencing them (hence - muse). JMO.

[DJG1122]

Hmm... While I don't doubt the writers like KW and want to give her stuff to do, I don't think it's this "everyone must do everything to keep her happy" thing going on. She's getting fourth billing after TM, NB and OJ. I don't think it's about that. I just think they were so conscious of the lack of believability in their couple and their plot hinges on us buying their love so we get invested. Since even if they want to make her go evil, it has to leave a mark. We should feel betrayed along with the team. 

Thinking about the magazine cover with NB behind TM. Last seas

Edited November 23, 2014 by DJG1122

[DJG1122]

Thinking about the magazine cover with NB behind TM. Last seas

Sorry, can't get this working right. Last season, most of the photos showed TM and NB with their arms around each other. In one episode, NB's hair is pulled back and a little messy. In Mama', she was wearing lip liner emphasizing her lips, which I don't remember seeing before. Almost as if she isn't supposed to be 'the most beautiful one'.

[fantique]

This is the Katrina thread so DJG1122 can you answer in the Abbie thread what you mean about this?

 

Sorry, can't get this working right. Last season, most of the photos showed TM and NB with their arms around each other. In one episode, NB's hair is pulled back and a little messy. In Mama', she was wearing lip liner emphasizing her lips, which I don't remember seeing before. Almost as if she isn't supposed to be 'the most beautiful one'.

[DJG1122]

This is the Katrina thread so DJG1122 can you answer in the Abbie thread what you mean about this?

Moving comments to the Leftenant Fist-Bump thread.

[phoenics]

This is why I think she is Goffman's muse, TBH. During season 1, article after article talked about how wonderful Mison and Beharie were, how amazing the chemistry is and almost always (I'd say 85% of the time), mentioned that Katrina was a drag on the show and her behaviour was incredibly suspect.

 

Goffman is quoted as saying that Katrina is his favourite character and frequently gushes over her in interviews, etc. But here is the problem - if the vast majority of the fans don't care for KC, and it is clear that more focus on her is hurting the rest of the show and the characters, and reviews over and over again point to her being a large reason for it, then odds are we (and the reviewers) are right. But he has put his head in the sand and dismissed us as 'haters' because we don't get it.

 

Declining ratings don't lie. A large number of negative reviews don't lie. And here in these threads, most of us are saying the exact same things. So it's not us or our perception or our inability to get it. I get that you can't tool a show to completely win everyone over, but the show is alienating a large part of its viewing audience. A showrunner who wants to keep their job would see this, unless there is something else influencing them (hence - muse). JMO.

I've seen show runners run a show into the ground due to them catering to their "muse" before - Goffman is just another one to add to the list. Worse - he wouldn't even blame himself if the show got canceled - he'd blame the fans.

[fantique]

I don't think it's about fighting for Ichy's love, but about fighting for the audience's love. They want to sell the character as quickly as possible. I believe that downplaying Abbie's beauty and propping up Katrina with neon signs "LOOK HOW SEXY! LOOK HOW HOT! Who would look at Abbie, when you have a REAL WOMAN like that?" is very much about shooting down Abbie. The message is clear: all men naturally fall in love with Katrina, the Most Beautiful. She is Goffman's favorite and so should she be with the audience.

But is the majority of the audience for sleepy hollow men? The overtly sexy woman is rarely popular with female viewers. So having her going around with her face looking not so great even if her body is (plus, the poor girl's wig colour changes as minutes go by), is not going to make female viewers exactly enchanted with her. What we are seeing is that she has a sexy body, her face always looks awful because she's always about to keel over. She hasn't looked normal since the weeping lady episode. The saddest thing is that she doesn't look great in colonial clothes and her hair is always a mess, so if that was a huge concern on the production side of things, wardrobe would have made more positive changes by now. Right now actually the story has her looking haggard and corpse levels of pale. If there is a difference today... but for now I am not convinced that's their angle. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

But is the majority of the audience for sleepy hollow men? The overtly sexy woman is rarely popular with female viewers.

 

The problem is the the showrunners dismiss the intelligence of the male viewer (and well, female at times too), and assume that they don't need an interesting character, just a nice bosom or butt to appeal to them, which is very insulting.

 

Watching the show with hubby - who has acknowledged that Katrina is pretty - the start of show conversation:

 

Hubby: "Is Katrina dead yet?"

Me: "No, sorry. Not yet. I'm hoping."

Hubby: "Too bad. So when are Abbie and Crane gonna have sex." (he says it more crudely)

 

He's not someone who cares for romance in shows, but he's not blind to the chemistry.

 

Like I said, it's an insult to male viewers to automatically assume they want fluff over substance, just like they are assuming that Katrina is the ideal. Again, I blame Goffman and the rest of them.

[DeLurker]

Maybe they think all women viewers want to be Katrina and look like KW?

 

They'd be wrong - again, KW is a highly attractive woman, but I don't think she's got the end-all looks that all women aspire too.