S02.E04: Beasts Of Burden

[RealityGal]

Actually, she said "You're very sweet.". I loved that.

That makes me like the scene even more.  She is by far my favorite character on the show.

We also saw a smaller flash of anger in the family tub after Daytak half drowned her at the end of the previous episode and which they included at the beginning of this one in the previouslies. I'm still going along with @johntfs 's theory that Stahma has had a fundamental change, but y'all have swayed me enough with the recollection of her being a snake all along that I'm thinking the moment of real change was in the bathtub, when she realized she could no longer hide her true nature.

It just occurred to me that Daytak holding her head under water and Stahma coming up a changed person heavily borrows from the ritual of baptism by immersion practiced in many Christian churches.

 

You may have something there.  I don't know that this show goes so lightly when trying to make comparisons.  The Earth Republic seems to be the Nazi's.  With the uniforms, the unquestioning loyalty to a cause, the evil means that they think justifies a good cause, the fact that they seemed to grow out of the extreme loss that humans faced after the war.  The Castians seems to have a lot of similarities to some points of traditional Christianity.  The man in charge of the household, the woman in a subserviant and chaste role, the use of the bible to sort of justify whatever a man would like to do, the crazy torture ritual that seemed a little like a burning at the stake, the focus on the male child as the heir.  So its not so much of a stretch to think that something happened to Stahma while she was being drowned, in the way that there is a transformation that takes place during a traditional Christian baptism.

[90PercentGravity]

I've never seen Stahma as anything even remotely close to subservient. She has always been the one with the power -- she was just good at hiding it. She manipulated everyone and every thing, including Datak. Stahma isn't the one that changed, imo, Datak was. In prison he realized that Stahma was making a power grab and when he came out she was no longer able to control him with simple manipulation, so she had to change her strategy.

Edited July 13, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[Emily Thrace]

I don't know that this show goes so lightly when trying to make comparisons.  The Earth Republic seems to be the Nazi's.  With the uniforms, the unquestioning loyalty to a cause, the evil means that they think justifies a good cause, the fact that they seemed to grow out of the extreme loss that humans faced after the war.

Actually given Pottinger's accent and Amanda's comments last week I think they may be going for a British East India trading company parallel rather than the more traditional Space Nazi's. Although in terms of racism the difference between the two is really only by degree The British Empire definitely believed their race was superior and had a right to rule over everybody else.  The British just generally believed the savages could be converted and salvaged as slave labor instead of wiped off the face of the earth.  (For the most part anyway some Irish academics definitely disagree).  Although they weren't shy about sacrificing a few of them along the way, by some estimates they killed more people than the Nazi's did.

 

I wish I had a few more historical examples but the British Raj is one of those parts of history I don't know as much about. Most of my knowledge of the British Empire is about Ireland and British North America and to a lesser extent Africa and China.

[RealityGal]

Actually given Pottinger's accent and Amanda's comments last week I think they may be going for a British East India trading company parallel rather than the more traditional Space Nazi's. Although in terms of racism the difference between the two is really only by degree The British Empire definitely believed their race was superior and had a right to rule over everybody else.  The British just generally believed the savages could be converted and salvaged as slave labor instead of wiped off the face of the earth.  (For the most part anyway some Irish academics definitely disagree).  Although they weren't shy about sacrificing a few of them along the way, by some estimates they killed more people than the Nazi's did.

 

I wish I had a few more historical examples but the British Raj is one of those parts of history I don't know as much about. Most of my knowledge of the British Empire is about Ireland and British North America and to a lesser extent Africa and China.

 

Perhaps, but I think going for a german accent may be too obvious, even for a show that doesn't seem to mind being pretty obvious.  What comments did Amanda make that made you think of British East India trading company?  I'm just curious.

[jhlipton]

My favorite two things, however, may be Doc Yewell's snark, and the way that Nolan continually and cheerfully blows off Pottinger's posturing.

I don't mind Nolan snarking at Pottinger -- I do mind the "macho" shoulder bump. I liked it even less when he did it to Tommy.

 

That ambush was some quality shooting. But I suppose after decades of post apocalyptic mayhem, the mine had some people working there who knew their way around a rifle and our intrepid terrorist knew their names.

Berlin is awesome. Can I have some more Berlin and Irisa interactions, please? The flirtier the better.

I thought the ambush was pretty stupid -- the "guards" got taken out way too easily, and the one that did survive didn't shoot from under cover. I have no clue what Pottinger's plan was, since he knew there were still two raiders.

And Berlin... I hate the "Damsel in Distress" at the best of times, but she's supposed to have Army and police training. In case of attack, grab your camera in the most obvious way possible? Is that what they teach at the Academy? Then she lets herself get kidnapped, and even with her hands free, only manages to show cleavage, not any smarts or training. All so she can get rescued by Han Solo... excuse me, Nolan. Blech. I hated those scenes, and where she's presented as a prize to Tommy, and as the adjascent side in the triangle.

Thank goodness for the Tarrs or this would have been a pretty worthless episode with a few good lines (e'g' "Look who raised me")

 

 

[Pottinger is] smart enough that I'd rather see him ending up being an ally against something worse. Though, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure I'd feel that way if he were played by a different actor who didn't bring positive baggage to the role for me.

I'm not aware of Murray, so he doesn't bring any past associations with him, but I think you're right. I really hope he's not the one who raped Amanda.

BTW, this is one of the extremely few movies or shows where a character actually has an abortion, and the rape, as much as or more than the abortion, is what leads her to who she is now.

ETA:

Perhaps, but I think going for a german accent may be too obvious, even for a show that doesn't seem to mind being pretty obvious.  What comments did Amanda make that made you think of British East India trading company?  I'm just curious.

She made a comment that the "colonization of India was a blip in history", which is unfortunately incorrect.

Edited July 13, 2014 by jhlipton

[SimoneS]

I don't see any resemblance between the Earth Republic and the Nazis. The Earth Republic acts like our government or any other powerful aggressive government that covets the resources of a less powerful group of people. The Earth Republic used its military superiority and the stupidity of the Defiance citizens who elected the corrupt and politically inept Datak Tarr to take over the town.

 

The Castithans are a patriarchal society, but Stahma has been able to manipulate Datak to some degree. I don't buy that Datak hurting Alak was the last straw. Stahma never had any intention of allowing Datak to get back his power once he got locked up. She did nothing to help free him and when he was freed, she immediately plotted to get him locked up again by paying the E-Rep soldiers to provoke him. If anything, Datak injuring Alak gave her the leverage to convince Alak to go along with her plans to get rid of his father. Datak would have let Alak walk away from the dodgy business and go legit with his music business so that Stahma would have no male ally in the family to give her cover, but Datak never was clever. 

Edited July 13, 2014 by SimoneS

[johntfs]

 

 

And Berlin... I hate the "Damsel in Distress" at the best of times, but she's supposed to have Army and police training. In case of attack, grab your camera in the most obvious way possible? Is that what they teach at the Academy? Then she lets herself get kidnapped, and even with her hands free, only manages to show cleavage, not any smarts or training. All so she can get rescued by Han Solo... excuse me, Nolan. Blech. I hated those scenes, and where she's presented as a prize to Tommy, and as the adjascent side in the triangle.

 

That was more person in distress instead of damsel.  Not every person with Army or police training is a Special Forces badass.  Berlin has mostly been shown to be a camera/electronics geek.  She did her basic training, probably does a little upkeep work but mostly sits on her ass, watches people with her cameras and sends packs of heavily armed other people to deal with the trouble she spots.  I have zero problem with the idea that she wasn't able to win fights against people with 60+ pounds of muscle on her who were also armed with guns while she wasn't.

[RealityGal]

I don't see any resemblance between the Earth Republic and the Nazis. The Earth Republic acts like our government or any other powerful aggressive government that coverts the resources of a less powerful group of people. The Earth Republic used its military superiority and the stupidity of the Defiance citizens who elected the corrupt and politically inept Datak Tarr to take over the town.

 

The Castithans are a patriarchal society, but Stahma has been able to manipulate Datak to some degree. I don't buy that Datak hurting Alak was the last straw. Stahma never had any intention of allowing Datak to get back his power once he got locked up. She did nothing to help free him and when he was freed, she immediately plotted to get him locked up again by paying the E-Rep soldiers to provoke him. If anything, Datak injuring Alak gave her the leverage to convince Alak to go along with her plans to get rid of his father. Datak would have let Alak walk away from the dodgy business and go legit with his music business so that Stahma would have no male ally in the family to give her cover, but Datak never was clever. 

 

There is no due process with the Earth Republic, we have due process, the Nazi's didn't.  People are sent to jail without so much as a trial from what I've seen.  The prison also has a little bit of the concentration camp feel to them.  The ideal of the United States is a country  comprised of all different sorts of people, which, in this show would translate to different species (I'm not saying that different races are different species, but right now, different races are as physically different as we can get), the Earth Republic only has, to my knowledge, one species working for it, which to me runs parallel to the Nazis who only wanted certain people to be part of their group.  Physically, the Earth Republic uniforms look more like Nazi uniforms, IMO.  I think the Nazis also used the fact that people, in a tough situation, can easily choose a bad leader.  From my understanding, Hitler was given power after the first world war when Germany was economically depressed.  The people were somewhat desperate for a leader that promised them a way to make things better.  By the time they could see what a monster Hitler was, it was just too late.  It seems to me, like a lot of people gave power to the Earth Republic because they were desperate after the war, and now its become this giant machine that does bad things even though it began with what was probably a good mission.  But I can understand your argument.

 

I think that Stahma would have continued to use her quiet, methodical manipulation of Datak if it hadn't been for Alak.  She would have eventually gotten Datak killed or put in jail.  But I think the situation with Alak pushed her to do something drastic and immediate.  I'm unsure that if Datak had gotten out of jail and simply had a "forgive and forget" attitude that Stahma just wouldn't have allowed herself to fall back into her old role.  She has always controlled Datak, he is useful to have as a cover and as a scapegoat.  So perhaps it would have been just as easy for her to manipulate him again, so she could have him for a cover.  Its almost better for her to not have to get her hands dirty.  In controlling Datak, she has power, but without the risk.  But I think the situation with Alak pushed all of that aside.  At this point, she has already shown Datak's gang that she can control his business, she has the respect, but with Datak she would also have a scapegoat.  And she has shown that she can control Datak if she needs to.

Edited July 13, 2014 by RealityGal

[SimoneS]

What due process was used when our country invaded Iraq? What due process did the Europeans use when they invaded the lands of numerous peoples since 1492? What recourse did the people of those countries have to stop these governments? In all these cases, we have powerful nations determined to possess the natural resources of other countries by invading them, sometimes using a pretext, sometimes not. The Earth Republic isn't any different. It is not wiping out any of the species or creating ghettos for non-human species in Defiance. If anything it is forming alliances with the different groups in Defiance. The Earth Republic is merely attempting to exploit Defiance's natural resources to build what will possibly be a powerful weapon. Now if the E-Rep uses the weapons to commit genocide, your Nazi comparison would work, but for now, I don't see any comparison.

 

It seemed to me that Stahma quickly realized that she no longer able to subtly manipulate Datak. When she saw him reading the book, she realized that he was relying on an interpretation of their religious beliefs to guide his actions. She was always going to have to make that final move against him or her life would have been hellish from then on.

Edited July 13, 2014 by SimoneS

[Chaos Theory]

I've never seen Stahma as anything even remotely close to subservient. She has always been the one with the power -- she was just good at hiding it. She manipulated everyone and every thing, including Datak. Stahma isn't the one that changed, imo, Datak was. In prison he realized that Stahma was making a power grab and when he came out she was no longer able to control him with simple manipulation, so she had to change her strategy.

 

There is a term in sex called "Topping from the bottom".  I think that is what Stahma has always done.  Enforced her will from a submissive position.  She is all smiles and bows and "You are so strong."  She does this with everyone and yet it seems to be her that gets her way.   If you listen to what she says even in the first season.  Her words are very telling.  She speaks softly but her words have great meaning.  She tells her husband what to do and yet makes him believe it was his idea the entire time.  She tell Amanda in season two she is so strong, so brave while handing her Adreno to ease her pain.    This has never never been a woman you want to cross.  It is only due to the society she was born into that she is a submissive as she is. 

[johntfs]

Talking further about Berlin, prior to her "Hot Chewbacca" speech and using her cameras, Berlin's "contribution" to Nolan's hunt for the bomber was to get in his way.  Not in a political or bureaucratic sense.  She got knocked aside by the miner and then Nolan physically tripped over her.  So, no, Berlin isn't exactly G.I. Jane.

[RealityGal]

What due process was used when our country invaded Iraq? What due process did the Europeans use when they invaded the lands of numerous peoples since 1492? What recourse did the people of those countries have to stop these governments? In all these cases, we have powerful nations determined to possess the natural resources of other countries by invading them, sometimes using a pretext, sometimes not. The Earth Republic isn't any different. It is not wiping out any of the species or creating ghettos for non-human species in Defiance. If anything it is forming alliances with the different groups in Defiance. The Earth Republic is merely attempting to exploit Defiance's natural resources to build what will possibly be a powerful weapon. Now if the E-Rep uses the weapons to commit genocide, your Nazi comparison would work, but for now, I don't see any comparison.

 

It seemed to me that Stahma quickly realized that she no longer able to subtly manipulate Datak. When she saw him reading the book, she realized that he was relying on an interpretation of their religious beliefs to guide his actions. She was always going to have to make that final move against him or her life would have been hellish from then on.

 

Whether you buy it or not, the US did use a constitutional process in its invasion of Iraq.  I'm not saying I agree with the invasion, but there are certain executive powers that have been constitutionally determined.  Beyond that, while you may believe, and I would likely agree, that Iraq was invaded for reasons other than those given, the fact is that the reasons given would have been enough to legally, under our laws, been enough to go to war.  Although, that again, is a process.  While a president can send in troops on an executive order, continued funding of a war comes from Congress.

 

However, putting someone in jail is generally a matter of due process, there is normally always a trial.  Even for POW's, even for enemy combatants.  I would say you are comparing apples and oranges.  Where the Earth Republic has come into Definance, for even petty crimes there hasn't been a trial, there has only been someone being taken away to a prison.  This is more reflective of the Nazi's.   The declaration of war is another process entirely, and its not the same as due process which is afforded when someone has spray painted a dirty message on a wall, or spits at the Mayor, or expresses a counter point of view.  In the United States if you do any of those, and/or worse, you are afforded due process, as far as I know.  Nazi Germany, not so much.  You disagreed with the Nazi's you were put in jail, you disagree with the United States government, they shrug their shoulders.  You make a threat against the Nazi's, you go to jail, you make a threat against the US Government, you at least get the benefit of a trial.

 

BTW, how many humans did you see in that jail?  Because I don't remember seeing that many.  It certainly seemed disproportionate to me, and if it is, well, that seems little reminiscent of Nazi work camps, IMO.  But perhaps there were a ton of humans and I just didn't see them.

 

Personally, I see more comparisons to the Nazis, but YMMV.

 

As for Stahma, Datak has always been enamored with the old ways, which includes the Castian bible and/or religion.  And Stahma has always been able to manipulate him regardless. 

[Cardie]

All authoritarian governments maintain their power in the ways we've seen the E-Rep employ. If they have occupied a foreign country, they crush all dissent and sometimes massacre or enslave some portions of the population. If a dictator has arisen in his own land, the military also crushes all dissent and persecutes any portion of the population that is "different" from the ruler's cronies. You will get varying views on what counts as authoritarian and who gets to say so. Extreme libertarians in the US believe that any action by the government infringes upon their freedom; others of us would conclude that due process protects the ordinary citizen from abuses of police or military power. To Westerners, the British in India may look less oppressive than Assad or Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein.  Indians are less likely to find that a foregone conclusion. But, wherever one evaluates a specific authoritarian regime as falling on the "evil" scale, there are many, many other examples than Nazis. So trying to restrict the E-Rep to a one on one allegory of the Nazis oversimplifies the question, in my opinion.

[johntfs]

There is a term in sex called "Topping from the bottom".  I think that is what Stahma has always done.  Enforced her will from a submissive position.  She is all smiles and bows and "You are so strong."  She does this with everyone and yet it seems to be her that gets her way.   If you listen to what she says even in the first season.  Her words are very telling.  She speaks softly but her words have great meaning.  She tells her husband what to do and yet makes him believe it was his idea the entire time.  She tell Amanda in season two she is so strong, so brave while handing her Adreno to ease her pain.    This has never never been a woman you want to cross.  It is only due to the society she was born into that she is a submissive as she is. 

 

I agree with this a lot, though I do think Stahma has gone through some changes to the point that she's now "topping from the top."  When she has her talk with Kenya in the first season, I get the sense that she's honestly opening up about her real feelings.  She's mostly content with her life, even though she's essentially been forced to be resigned to her contentment by the nature of her native culture.  When she rebels in Season One, she only does so in tiny, secretive ways.  When Datak finds out and demands that she murder Kenya to make amends to him, she does so.  It's only after Datak is taken to prison that she begins to grow - because she finally has the space and need to grow.  Even then, I think her offer of partnership to Datak is genuine.  It's only after he refuses that she begins taking action to remove him.

[jhlipton]

[T]hat seems little reminiscent of Nazi work camps, IMO.  ...

Personally, I see more comparisons to the Nazis, but YMMV.

 

Three main differences:

The prisoners are not forced to work (as far as I've seen)

The prisoners are not starved

The prisoners are not executed en masse

The camp looks much more like a standard refugee camp to me. YMMV

 

Talking further about Berlin, prior to her "Hot Chewbacca" speech and using her cameras, Berlin's "contribution" to Nolan's hunt for the bomber was to get in his way.  Not in a political or bureaucratic sense.  She got knocked aside by the miner and then Nolan physically tripped over her.  So, no, Berlin isn't exactly G.I. Jane.

I don't expect her to be GI Jane, I just don't expect her to not have any combat training. She's in uniform, so she's not "office staff". And that sort of uniform almost always includes some sort of side-arm.  They should either let her react like someone of her standing should, have made her tech support or keep her out of those scenes.  

 

It also turns Nolan into the Gary Sue -- the only one who can track, run, disarm, etc etc etc.  After the "Hot Chewbacca", they could have shown that Nolan isn't Han Solo, but instead have amped it up, if anything.

YMMV :)

[RealityGal]

 

Three main differences:

The prisoners are not forced to work (as far as I've seen)

The prisoners are not starved

The prisoners are not executed en masse

The camp looks much more like a standard refugee camp to me. YMMV

 

I think in some of the documentaries I've watched about the work camps people were simply worked to death.  However, you're right, no one has been forced to work.  As far as feeding it seemed more like a situation where they just throw out the food, not where they feed everyone, which does not comport with most prisons even run by the US IMO.  In fact it seems like a situation in which most people don't get food or starve.  And I'm not sure if, in the early days of the concentration camps, if people were always killed off.  I'm certainly no Nazi historian, but I thought that the systematic killing came a little later on as Hitler was really getting amped up.

 

But YMMV, and honestly, I get oogy talking about Nazi's especially because I think it might ruin the show for some of those who are Jewish.  Whenever I see a program and there is something that reminds me of Jim Crow laws, or American slavery, it sort of ruins the entire show for me.

[shapeshifter]

I get oogy talking about Nazi's especially because I think it might ruin the show for some of those who are Jewish.  Whenever I see a program and there is something that reminds me of Jim Crow laws, or American slavery, it sort of ruins the entire show for me.

Yeah, it kind of diminishes the horror of the original when it is called up for use in scifi for the big bad. The novel Watership Down, pulled it off, but that's an exception. And I think for the most part here they aren't saying the Earth Republic is the second coming of the Nazis or the British in India or any one overlord group from the past--but they are a little heavy handed with some of the references, like "Berlin" and her jack booted costume.

[Chaos Theory]

But I think that is kind if the point Earth Republic is kind of heavy handed but I am not sure how I see them really. Defiance is an Old West type town and Earth Republic is the new World that infringes on them.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[johntfs]

 

I don't expect her to be GI Jane, I just don't expect her to not have any combat training. She's in uniform, so she's not "office staff". And that sort of uniform almost always includes some sort of side-arm.  They should either let her react like someone of her standing should, have made her tech support or keep her out of those scenes.  

 

It also turns Nolan into the Gary Sue -- the only one who can track, run, disarm, etc etc etc.  After the "Hot Chewbacca", they could have shown that Nolan isn't Han Solo, but instead have amped it up, if anything.

YMMV :)

 

Berlin does have combat training.  She showed that when she arrested Irisa.  Combat training isn't ninjitsu or sorcery, however.  Surprise matters.  Berlin was caught off guard by the miner in episode 2 and shoved aside.  Size also matters.  A big, strong untrained person still has a pretty decent chance of winning a fight against a smaller, weaker trained person.  The physics of fighting are pretty unforgiving for smaller folks.  

 

As for a side arm, I want to say Berlin was wearing one in the streets, but getting knocked over is getting knocked over.  Meanwhile, absent some specific emergency (invasion or somesuch) the only people who can carry weapons on a military base in the US are security or law enforcement personnel whose duties require them to be armed.  Even if she has a gun with her when the raider-miner showed up, she was too engrossed in her security footage to engage him with it.

 

As for Nolan, I don't see him as any kind of Sue.  In nothing else, he screwed up and put Berlin in danger by directly telling the miner-raider guy who and where she was.  Nolan accidently set Berlin up to be kidnapped.  That's not exactly "Sueish" behavior. 

[sjohnson]

^^^I see Nolan as setting Berlin up too. I suppose you could attribute that to incompetence but the show has already made it clear that Berlin is just a stupid obstacle I think. Berlin falling down and blocking his pursuit in a previous episode was pretty definitive. So I don't think the show intends for us to read Nolan's incompetence into it. I also don't think the show intends for us to view Nolan as letting Rafe kill the guy before he gets caught and possibly tells how Nolan tipped him off to Berlin. 

 

I know they addressed Nolan's privileged character status with Berlin's remarks to Nolan. But I think they did so more to "hang a lantern" on it, acknowledging that Nolan's happy-go-lucky persona was fun for him (and presumably the audience,) but not really fun in its consequences, just so that the audience knows not to take it seriously.

[johntfs]

^^^I see Nolan as setting Berlin up too. I suppose you could attribute that to incompetence but the show has already made it clear that Berlin is just a stupid obstacle I think. Berlin falling down and blocking his pursuit in a previous episode was pretty definitive. So I don't think the show intends for us to read Nolan's incompetence into it. I also don't think the show intends for us to view Nolan as letting Rafe kill the guy before he gets caught and possibly tells how Nolan tipped him off to Berlin. 

 

I know they addressed Nolan's privileged character status with Berlin's remarks to Nolan. But I think they did so more to "hang a lantern" on it, acknowledging that Nolan's happy-go-lucky persona was fun for him (and presumably the audience,) but not really fun in its consequences, just so that the audience knows not to take it seriously.

 

I find myself disagreeing with almost all of that.  Berlin isn't "just a stupid obstacle."  She's a fully realized person with her own strengths and weaknesses.  She's highly intelligent and good with technology, but falls down a little in unexpected physical confrontations.  Nolan's anger and frustration with the way Rafe manipulated his feelings of guilt and debt caused him to "set up" Berlin for kidnapping.  However, that wasn't his intention.  He was clearly trying to motivate the godson to leave Defiance as quickly as possible and not come back.  Meanwhile, Nolan didn't "let" Rafe kill the guy.  He'd been shot and ultimately Rafe made his own decision.

 

As for the Hot Chewbacca speech, there were a couple of things going on with that.  First, figure Berlin was feeling angry and embarassed over literally getting in Nolan's way and when he needled her some more with his "Be careful what you wish for, E-Rep" she reacted.  Secondly, her speech made the point that just because the E-Rep is generally in opposition to our show's heroes, doesn't mean that's it or the people in it, are necessarily villains.

[sjohnson]

As to whether the writers thought of Berlin's happy cowboy speech as showing how supporting ERep can be a valid viewpoint, we must disagree. I'm sorry but I can't see the show as heading anywhere but the overthrow of ERep, making them essentially the Big Bads. I think Berlin's arc will be seeing the light. (And Pottinger's lapsing into total monstrousness.) Happily if I'm wrong, I will be surprised without losing money. 

 

I suppose people will see the same thing differently. Berlin in the dirt blocking Nolan looked to me as the visual equivalent of a pie in the face. I can't conceive of the scene happening in the reverse without being perceived as a deliberate humiliation of Nolan. Have to agree to disagree I guess.

 

I may be misinterpreting Nolan letting Rafe take the godson. I thought there was no chance any more of the guy getting away and that Nolan knew it. I also didn't see any reason to send Rafe and the kid anywhere if Nolan really had any intention of arresting him. They all could have just waited for the other lawkeepers. If the guy really had a chance to get away, the logic doesn't follow, and it was all Rafe's idea.

[jhlipton]

We've seen Berlin in 4 confrontations now.

 

1) She's a stumbling block to Nolan

2) She's a silly git who, in a combat situation, grabs her camera instead of her gun and lets herself get knocked down (and out IIRC)

3) She's so focused on the video that she doesn't hear the miner (and apparently, the video is so unimportant that not even Pottinger's Bio-Man is guarding it)

4) She wiggles out of her bonds only to be knocked to one side again, so she has to be rescued by Han.

 

There's falling "down a little in unexpected physical confrontations" and then there's "silly girl, action is for MEN!!!!"

 

(BTW, Leia had less combat experience than Berlin, but handled a blaster as well as any of the guys.  Leia, in bondage, killed Jabba!  Berlin is no Leia!)

[johntfs]

1) True enough, but that's more of a shit happens moment than anything else.

 

2) Or she's a clever woman who grabs her camera in order to record the bad guys and eventually bring them to justice.

 

3) So, you've never, ever, ever been startled by someone because you were focused on something else?  (I will say fair point regarding Berlin's poorly guarded work area, though that probably falls more on the Mayor than her)

 

4) She wriggles out of her bonds, tossed a bear-trap onto the guy but yes, loses a fight for her life and needs to be rescued.

 

Meanwhile, we've seen five confrontations involving Berlin and she subdued Irisa just fine.

 

BTW, Rainbow Brite used to beat the snot out of Murky Dismal, so Berlin is clearly no Rainbow Brite either.  Nor is she Strawberry Shortcake or She-Ra, Princess of Power.  You are absolutely correct about your statement.  There are many cartoon and fantasy characters that Berlin is not.

[Grammaeryn]

I did get the whole We Big Men We Save Girl vibe too. It's telling in the dialogue when they switch from calling Berlin a woman to a girl. Damsel is apparently too 16th century. I was very grateful for a Irisa-lite episode! That storyline needs time to breathe. When I turned off the show, my final thought was, "Damn, I want to be Stahma is my next life!"

[johntfs]

I did get the whole We Big Men We Save Girl vibe too. It's telling in the dialogue when they switch from calling Berlin a woman to a girl. Damsel is apparently too 16th century. I was very grateful for a Irisa-lite episode! That storyline needs time to breathe. When I turned off the show, my final thought was, "Damn, I want to be Stahma is my next life!"

 

 

I got that vibe too, but I got it more as We Big Men We Save Girl From Our Own Fuckup.  Aside from that, Nolan tends to refer to anyone at least ten years his junior as "kid", "girl" etc.  He referred to the miner who grabbed Berlin as a kid, too.

[shapeshifter]

Nolan tends to refer to anyone at least ten years his junior as "kid", "girl" etc.  He referred to the miner who grabbed Berlin as a kid, too.

--which can mean either he's feeling old or he's being arrogant or both. We haven't seen (IMO) enough character development for him to know for sure.

[RealityGal]

I did get the whole We Big Men We Save Girl vibe too. It's telling in the dialogue when they switch from calling Berlin a woman to a girl. Damsel is apparently too 16th century. I was very grateful for a Irisa-lite episode! That storyline needs time to breathe. When I turned off the show, my final thought was, "Damn, I want to be Stahma is my next life!"

 

She is my favorite character on the show.  But I sort of like the villainous women in these shows.  I normally find them so much more interesting than the "good" characters.  So much more three dimensional.  

[Grammaeryn]

Aside from that, Nolan tends to refer to anyone at least ten years his junior as "kid", "girl" etc.  He referred to the miner who grabbed Berlin as a kid, too.

 

He referred to Berlin as a woman in the same episode. It goes from woman to girl. Watch. 

[Emily Thrace]

He referred to Berlin as a woman in the same episode. It goes from woman to girl. Watch.

 

I think that has more to do with Berlin being around the same age a Irisa though more than anything, My mom tends to call anyone around my age as a "kid" for the same reason.

[Grammaeryn]

I think that has more to do with Berlin being around the same age a Irisa though more than anything, My mom tends to call anyone around my age as a "kid" for the same reason.

 

I disagree. She's a woman when she wasn't in danger. A girl when she needed rescuing. It's coded language. But whatevs it's a TV show and my mom spent my childhood pointing this kind of writing out to me.

[shapeshifter]

Nolan sees himself as a father figure, and one who doesn't give a crap if this makes him look paternalistic if he calls a young lady in distress a girl. It might not be anything more than that. Just because he's a cowboy doesn't mean the whole show is chauvinist, and it doesn't make him despicable either. It does serve to keep him from being a Gary Stu or whatever you want to call it. He might also do it to send a signal that reads: Just because I'm rescuing you doesn't mean I'm your frickin' knight in shining armor; I'll be your dad but not your lover.

Edited July 17, 2014 by shapeshifter

[sjohnson]

I can't see how the girl thing is about Berlin rather than the character who uses "girl." But the way the show staged Berlin in the dirt blocking Nolan's pursuit I did think was very much about her. I thought the show was demeaning her character's competence. But I'm pretty sure the show likes cowboys, so Nolan being a happy cowboy doesn't mean he isn't the special person the show loves. I'm afraid I really do think his only competition in that regard is Irisa the Chosen One. 

[jhlipton]

BTW, Rainbow Brite used to beat the snot out of Murky Dismal, so Berlin is clearly no Rainbow Brite either.  Nor is she Strawberry Shortcake or She-Ra, Princess of Power.  You are absolutely correct about your statement.  There are many cartoon and fantasy characters that Berlin is not.

 

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree about this -- I think we've both made our arguments.  I can see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree.

 

I only compared Berlin to Leia because the show  explicitly compared Nolan to Han.

[johntfs]

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree about this -- I think we've both made our arguments.  I can see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree.

 

I only compared Berlin to Leia because the show  explicitly compared Nolan to Han.

 

I'm sorry.  I didn't need to do the "cartoon pushback" quite as hard as I did.

 

That said, it's pretty clear to me that there's some truth to Berlin's analysis that Nolan is modelling himself on Han Solo at least a little bit.  Meanwhile, Berlin isn't trying to be anyone other than herself.

[jhlipton]

I'm sorry.  I didn't need to do the "cartoon pushback" quite as hard as I did.

 

No probs -- I thought it was funny.

 

I have no problem with Nolan modeling himself after Solo, but Solo wasn't near the jerk Nolan can be (the shoulder bump for example is just pure jerkitude), and when Solo was a jerk, he usually got called on it.  The show seems to want him to be the Big Damn Hero that Solo was, but also seems to congratulate him when he's a bit of a bully.

 

(When I see one character shoulder-bump another, I immediately lose respect for the bumper.  it's such a macho, dick move.)