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S02.E14: Innocence

Mya Stone

By Mya Stone
in Buffy The Vampire Slayer

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Mya Stone

Mya Stone

  Quote

 

Buffy and her friends battle the Judge and face unexpected danger from Angel, who has lost his soul after experiencing a moment of true happiness.

 

This episode marks the turning point for all viewers, I think. This is when the show became something more than just something to watch on a Monday/Tuesday night. For myself, it touched on so many things that I had to deal with as a teenage girl. First love. First loss. What happens the next day after giving everything you have to give to a boy you love. Plus, a rocket launcher. 

SMG ran the gamut. Her uncertainty, and vulnerability, being peeled away, leaving the steely resolve that Buffy was known for as the years went on. This is truly the episode that she grew up. This is not just about the rise of Angelus (and btw, I forgot how much I love him - he's just such a gleeful asshole - and yes, that's my type) There is so much depth here, that even all these years later I can still talk about the episode at length. 

Alas, I won't. I will leave you with one word: 

 

"Arm?" And with that, Oz cemented his place in my heart forever. 

  • Love 1
DAngelus

DAngelus

(edited)

Greatest episode of the greatest season of television I have ever seen.  Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.  Dru names the stars, Cordelia wrinkes her nose, Angel kisses Spike, it's all good.

 

  Quote
"No, Xander's right!  My god, you people are all—well, I'm upset and I can't think of a bad word right now, but that's what you are…and we're going to the factory!"

 

Aw, Willow.  Followed by:

 

  Quote

"Buffy! We were just going to rescue you."

"Well, some of us were." (pointed glance)

"Well, I-I would have."

 

Aw, Giles.  (I think he would have, too.)

 

One time I did a scene-by-scene analysis of the episode, noting what I loved about each and every moment.  It's in the waybacked TWoP archives; perhaps I'll pull it out some day.

 

Lastly, one of the great cut lines of all time, from the Judge, when Spike is nagging him during the opening scene:

 

  Quote

"I fought an army.  They hacked me to pieces.  For six hundred years, I lay in the ground, my living head in a box.  I've learned to be patient."

 

I can see that line getting trimmed as unnecessary, but I still love it.

Edited by DAngelus
Jazzy24

Jazzy24

Awww..... "Innocence"

Poor Buffy in this episode.

I love this episode but I didn't like how Buffy got punished for having sex, by having her boyfriend become a evil monster. Or the idea that guys turn into completely different people after you have sex with them.

But I liked this episode.

- SMG can cry and Buffy breaking down in her room with the Buffy/Angel theme song playing in the background was so sad and I cried for Buffy.

- Xander being the man with the plan

-Oz and Willow having a nice conversation in the van

- Buffy looking so badass with that rocket and giving Angelus a good kick in the nuts

-Giles having a great conversation in the car with Buffy about how he will give her his support

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

I do love Angelus he's so much fun but so obvious.

romantic idiot

romantic idiot

  On 7/5/2014 at 10:19 AM, Jazzy24 said:

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

This. Most of the episode, I'm bewildered, discovering things with Buffy. And there's the kickass moment of Buffy demolishing the judge. But every time I've watched this episode - this scene brings the tears. Always. It's magic. Just the loss of hope is a kick in the stomach. And I"ll confess the only reason I can stand watching it is because I know what happens afterwards. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have been able to watch this series. 

Dianthus

Dianthus

Sex and gender roles are definitely at issue throughout BtVS. In this ep., Angelus kills a hooker, then refers to Buffy as a "real pro." Also, Xander casts Cordelia in the role of a hooker-type.

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

"Let it burn" Buffy says at the end of this ep.

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.

DAngelus

DAngelus

  Quote

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

Expand  

 

Pretty much every weapon Buffy uses is "phallic", though.  Stakes, swords, a flaming sewer pipe.  (Those darn penises are everywhere!)  Does this mean that she secretly lusts for Machida or Lurconis? (Both of whom are pretty phallic themselves, by the way.)  Sometimes a rocket launcher is just a rocket launcher, IMO.

 

And given that the fight between Buffy and Angel in the "rain" of the movie theater symbolizes the death of their love, and that Buffy's foot quite nearly impairs Angel's ability for any sex whatsoever, it's not the best violence=sex connection I could ever draw.  I'd say it's more about Buffy and Angel's love dying as it was consummated; transitional imagery, not about correlation.  But JMO.

 

  Quote

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.
Expand  


Neither of those cases is about actual fire, though, so a connection to "I think I'll just let it burn" is unmerited, IMO.  Also, Buffy's line here is about the fire going out and the death of her hope,

  Reveal spoiler
Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 7/5/2014 at 1:43 AM, Mya Stone said:

 

This episode marks the turning point for all viewers, I think. This is when the show became something more than just something to watch on a Monday/Tuesday night. For myself, it touched on so many things that I had to deal with as a teenage girl. First love. First loss. What happens the next day after giving everything you have to give to a boy you love. Plus, a rocket launcher. 

SMG ran the gamut. Her uncertainty, and vulnerability, being peeled away, leaving the steely resolve that Buffy was known for as the years went on. This is truly the episode that she grew up. This is not just about the rise of Angelus (and btw, I forgot how much I love him - he's just such a gleeful asshole - and yes, that's my type) There is so much depth here, that even all these years later I can still talk about the episode at length. 

Alas, I won't. I will leave you with one word: 

 

"Arm?" And with that, Oz cemented his place in my heart forever. 

Expand  

It is marvellous for all the reasons you've underlined but I never got people's fandom for (and sometimes devotion to) Angelus?

  On 7/5/2014 at 3:37 AM, DAngelus said:

Greatest episode of the greatest season of television I have ever seen.  Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.  Dru names the stars, Cordelia wrinkes her nose, Angel kisses Spike, it's all good.

 

 

Aw, Willow.  Followed by:

 

 

Aw, Giles.  (I think he would have, too.)

 

One time I did a scene-by-scene analysis of the episode, noting what I loved about each and every moment.  It's in the waybacked TWoP archives; perhaps I'll pull it out some day.

 

Lastly, one of the great cut lines of all time, from the Judge, when Spike is nagging him during the opening scene:

 

 

I can see that line getting trimmed as unnecessary, but I still love it.

 

Expand  

How much scarier if it had been what we see in the comics in which case it isn't Willow but

  Reveal spoiler

 

  On 7/5/2014 at 4:55 AM, VCRTracking said:

Oz: "Uhhh....arm!"

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Actually prefer his line in the previous ep where he says 'No it explains a lot'

  On 7/5/2014 at 10:19 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Awww..... "Innocence"

Poor Buffy in this episode.

I love this episode but I didn't like how Buffy got punished for having sex, by having her boyfriend become a evil monster. Or the idea that guys turn into completely different people after you have sex with them.

But I liked this episode.

- SMG can cry and Buffy breaking down in her room with the Buffy/Angel theme song playing in the background was so sad and I cried for Buffy.

- Xander being the man with the plan

-Oz and Willow having a nice conversation in the van

- Buffy looking so badass with that rocket and giving Angelus a good kick in the nuts

-Giles having a great conversation in the car with Buffy about how he will give her his support

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

I do love Angelus he's so much fun but so obvious.

Expand  

I do love that final scene, SMG and KS play it so beautifully, no matter what happens to Buffy it will all be okay as long as can come home to Joyce's

  Reveal spoiler

loving arms.

 

  On 7/5/2014 at 6:34 PM, wingster55 said:

Gotta love the nose wrinkle. (No, really)

Need to rewatch this ep before making a substantial post. 

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Yeah, one of CC's little acting traits, you can see her doing it as far back as Baywatch. 

 

  On 7/8/2014 at 4:41 PM, romantic idiot said:

This. Most of the episode, I'm bewildered, discovering things with Buffy. And there's the kickass moment of Buffy demolishing the judge. But every time I've watched this episode - this scene brings the tears. Always. It's magic. Just the loss of hope is a kick in the stomach. And I"ll confess the only reason I can stand watching it is because I know what happens afterwards. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have been able to watch this series. 

Expand  

Yeah, it's a wrencher, isn't it? I wasn't online when they showed this ep but the boards must have gone utterly crazy. 

 

  On 7/9/2014 at 9:39 PM, Dianthus said:

Sex and gender roles are definitely at issue throughout BtVS. In this ep., Angelus kills a hooker, then refers to Buffy as a "real pro." Also, Xander casts Cordelia in the role of a hooker-type.

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

"Let it burn" Buffy says at the end of this ep.

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.

Expand  

Don't forget his taunting message to Buffy after killing Jenny's uncle?

 

  On 7/10/2014 at 2:33 AM, DAngelus said:

 

Pretty much every weapon Buffy uses is "phallic", though.  Stakes, swords, a flaming sewer pipe.  (Those darn penises are everywhere!)  Does this mean that she secretly lusts for Machida or Lurconis? (Both of whom are pretty phallic themselves, by the way.)  Sometimes a rocket launcher is just a rocket launcher, IMO.

 

And given that the fight between Buffy and Angel in the "rain" of the movie theater symbolizes the death of their love, and that Buffy's foot quite nearly impairs Angel's ability for any sex whatsoever, it's not the best violence=sex connection I could ever draw.  I'd say it's more about Buffy and Angel's love dying as it was consummated; transitional imagery, not about correlation.  But JMO.

 


Neither of those cases is about actual fire, though, so a connection to "I think I'll just let it burn" is unmerited, IMO.  Also, Buffy's line here is about the fire going out and the death of her hope

  Reveal spoiler

 

Expand  

You always wonder does Spike actually crave Buffy because of little brother jealousy of Angelus and his relationship with Dru?

Innocence

The Good; As Joss says "Buffy in pain, show good!" And he really puts her, Jenny and Giles through the wringer here (Willow also has her pain but Oz is there to thankfully not kiss it better) But you know what? It doesn't matter because in the final scene she ends up back in Joyce's loving arms

  Reveal spoiler

and it's all too beautiful for words. Stunningly brilliant in every way, quite possibly the best episode of Buffy ever.


The Bad; Ummmmmm? Actually one thing I don't like is Angelus killing the hooker in the alley (Sophia Crawford, SMG's stunt double). She is lovely in a trashy sort of way, the Gorch's were wrong! Such a misogynistic cliché, couldn't he have killed some guy emptying the bins or something?

Best line; Xander (to Cordy) "Wear something trashy...er" (unkind actually as CC's outfit is very nice although a little school-uniformish). Plus; Giles; "I'd say we've hit rock bottom" Xander; "I have a plan" Cordy; "Oh no, there's a lower place!" But best dialogue; Joyce; "So how was your birthday?" Buffy; "Got older" Joyce "You don't look any different to me" (nice contrast between the scene where Joyce senses something different about Buffy after she's lost her virginity)

What the fanficcers thought; Angelus kills Buffy's Scoobs but others (Harmony, Jonathon, Amy, Larry etc) take their place-Deadscoobies.

Questions and observations; So much good stuff, the dream sequence and the scene where Angelus kills Jenny's uncle especially good. But how does he know he's in town? Did Dru have a vision? So Sunnydale has it's own army base

  Reveal spoiler

as well as an airport big enough for a 747, zoo, docks etc Not bad for a town of under 40,000 (The Mayor's influence?).  You can start to see his jealousy of Dru and Angelus almost from the start, without Darla the Fanged Four are out of balance. It was always one of the things that troubled me about the supernatural threat, that really faced with modern technology they're not really up to much, the Hellgods from 'Cabin in the Woods' have a tactical nuke with their names on it (love the Judge's ignorance of what he's facing followed inevitably by death) Buffy says she beat up Willy the Snitch again.


I think most people fell in love at this point with Oz, ironically because he DOESN'T want to kiss Willow. Jenny leaves the Scoobies here and realistically will never get back in. Alison Hannigan shows some superb acting skills upon her discovery of Xander/Cordy but all the actors really shine here. Oz joins the Scoobies from the beginning. This makes the Scoobs officially; 1. Buffy 2. Giles 3. Willow 4. Xander 5. Angel (for the course of the ep at least) 6. Jenny 7. Cordy 8. Oz the biggest they'll ever be until season 5

10/10 and more of I could make it, just superb and a whole new era for Buffy

  • Love 1
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

  On 6/19/2018 at 8:31 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

How much scarier [would the hallway walk towards Angelus have been] if it had been what we see in the comics in which case it isn't Willow but

  Reveal spoiler
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Actually, not much.  Arguably less.  This is the key argument against the inclusion of 

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Beautiful episode; no need to rewrite it, IMO.

Nice nuance:  when Willow is trying to reassure Buffy on the phone in Act II (just before she surprises C/X in the stacks), she's insisting that Angel's disappearance is part of a "plan", it's just a "plan I'm not a part of".  But, it turns out, Willow is part of Angel's plan, or rather message:  "It's not really the kind of of message you tell. It sort of involves finding the dead bodies of all of your friends!"

(Hey, I didn't say she'd enjoy being part of the plan.  Just that she was.)

  On 7/5/2014 at 3:37 AM, DAngelus said:

Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.

Expand  

Yeah, not so much with the overly-bright "new versions", I'm afraid.  You can see the vamp-face plain as day.  I'm almost expecting Willow to say "Hi, Angel, what's with the fangs?  Do you need a drink?  We can get some steaks from the cafeteria."  In words of one syllable…"sheesh".

  • Love 1
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

  On 6/19/2018 at 8:31 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Angelus killing the hooker in the alley (Sophia Crawford, SMG's stunt double)

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Is that really Sophia?  She's credited as "Carla Madden".  (I'm not saying it couldn't be SC, not after the Joey "Clayne" Crawford business from earlier in the year; I'm just wondering.)

Asian Dan is in Jenny's class.  Good for him, computers are a useful subject to study.

Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 6/24/2018 at 9:53 AM, nosleepforme said:

That last scene was a thing of beauty, just a normal mother-daughter moment, Buffy watching an old movie with Joyce. These kind of moments when Buffy gets to live a little normal life are always treasured by me. I also loved the conversation with Giles at the end, where he tells her that she will not be getting any blame from him, only respect. I feel like scenes like that round out the adult characters much more. In most teen shows, the adult characters are only positioned as dramatic obstacle, here they're supportive.

 

It would have been interesting to have seen what kind of reaction the episode got upon the original airing, but I did not have internet at the time (I think I was 10).

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Absolutely, when in later seasons we

  Reveal spoiler

Yeah, I didn't really get online until the end of season 6, it was a glorious 3 years.  

Halting Hex

Halting Hex

  On 9/20/2018 at 7:35 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

t's great how DB slips into Angelus purely through facial experssions.

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And posture. I've seen contemporary commentary that said they knew Angel had lost his soul just because he was standing straight up (for once!) in the alley, before he even turned and bit the hooker.

A century's worth of guilt almost literally lifted off of his shoulders.  No more slouching and skulking for (ex-)Broody Boy, it seems.

  • Love 1
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

From a review I just read:

  Quote

We learn later on that the curse that the gypsies placed on Angel was meant to torture him with guilt and that it would be broken if he ever achieved true happiness, which I guess in Angel’s case involves taking a seventeen-year old girl’s virginity. 

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Well, when you put it that way, lol…hey, you find your "true happiness" where you can, I guess.

Just kidding, of course.  I'm sure Buffy made it special for him.  Otherwise, Angel will be facepalming every time he walks by the Bronze, going "I can't believe I didn't think of that before!"

  • Love 1
lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

(edited)

Innocence continues to be one of my favorite eps. Though if I had a say in anything, I would replace one annoying scene (W/O conversation in the van) with something like this:

  Quote

Sunnydale High's hallway. Cordelia's heading towards her locker only to spot Willow standing by with her arms crossed and the pissed-off look on her face.
CORDELIA (tryin' to act as if nothing had happened): Hi, Willow. What's up?

WILLOW (keeping her eyes on the other girl): Four words, Cordy.
CORDELIA (slightly surprised): Four words?.. What words? What are you talkin' about?
WILLOW: Four words (gets a little bit closer).

CORDELIA (putting an annoyed expression on her face): Oh, I see... We're speaking in riddles, aren't we?
WILLOW (comes even closer giving Cordy a ripperish glare she learned from Giles, though the other girl still stands there): Xander. Is. Mine. Bitch.

CORDELIA (not backing away and taking her usual Queen Bitch of SH stand): Gee, looks like little Willow finally got a backbone (crossing her arms). Now you listen to me, kiddo...
Cordy's unable to finish, 'cause Willow punches her in the face. Cordelia goes down hitting the floor.
WILLOW (rubs her fist while looking at Cordelia laying on the floor and rubbing her jaw): You have been warned, Cordy (turns around and starts walking away). Go over my head again and I'll have yours on a platter. You will find out who the real queen is. Bye.

CORDELIA (watching the redhead in awe): Ouch.

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Edited by lembergwatcher
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

Easy there, now.  Willow wouldn't be Willow if she wasn't so Willow-y, and that's part of why we (well, the "I" part of "we", anyway) love her so.

Besides, Xander should probably get some say in whose he "is", too.  Agency…it's not just a girl thing, you know.

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by Halting Hex
  • Love 1
Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 10/12/2018 at 1:19 PM, Halting Hex said:

From a review I just read:

Well, when you put it that way, lol…hey, you find your "true happiness" where you can, I guess.

Just kidding, of course.  I'm sure Buffy made it special for him.  Otherwise, Angel will be facepalming every time he walks by the Bronze, going "I can't believe I didn't think of that before!"

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I doubt it, I'm sure if it was just extreme sexual pleasure then ex-pro Darla or group sex with the Furies sisters would do the trick. I remember a bizarre discussion on the Bronze where it was mooted that if Dru was a virgin when sired would her vamp healing mean she stayed a virgin constantly? We got into some weird discourse. 

lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

(edited)

That scene at Sunnydale Mall...

  Quote

Angelus: You can't do it. You can't kill me.

Her anger takes over and she kicks him extremely hard in the crotch. Angelus grabs his groin and moans in extreme pain. He collapses to his knees. Buffy turns her back on him and walks away.

Buffy: Give me time.

Angelus is on all fours now and can't move to follow her.

Expand  

Am I supposed to believe justice is served since Angelus is "on all fours now and can't move to follow" Buffy? Yes, the kick was very spectacular thing to watch.

  Reveal spoiler

Is it just me, or do we have a blatant case of an emotional manipulation here? I mean Joss is obviously trying to have his cake and eat it too: Angelus can't just get away with murder, but God forbid we stop pandering to Bangel 'shippers and let Buffy do what has to be done. Isn't the whole kick-in-the-crotch moment supposed to distract us from Buffy's own confirmation Angelus' is actually right ("You can't kill me")? Don't you think her walking away saying "Give me time" sends Angelus a message he's free to kill until Buffy finds the strength (and courage) to finish him off? 

  Reveal spoiler

Some fans claim the whole "Buffy kicks Angelus" moment to be one of the best in an ep (or the season in general). I hardly think so,

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by lembergwatcher
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

(Ooooh, I'd forgotten that I'd written but failed to post what follows about a month back.  It's arguably slightly OT and somewhat silly, but I'll give a more-serious answer to the above post later. )

So last week [Ed: meaning, November] I'm watching The Family, the 2013 comedy with Robert DeNiro as a mobster who had to relocate to a small town in Normandy, France for witness protection, with Tommy Lee Jones as the FBI monitor, and there's a scene where DeNiro's wife (Michelle Pfeiffer) is telling their teen daughter (Dianna Agron) to make sure she has protection if she's going to be hanging out with the local boys, since she lost her virginity to DeNiro when he "jumped on [her]" in church, of all places.

And Agron scoffs at this, saying she can handle herself (we've already had a scene where she beats the absolute shit out of a French kid who tried to get handsy with her, although she might not always have that tennis racquet available) and when she loses her virginity, it will be at a time and place of her choosing, and with her "soulmate".  Which seems well and good, but before long she's falling for a cute student teacher, and seducing him in a deserted classroom before he goes to Paris to take his final accreditation exams.  And before we know it, she's calling "Henri" in Paris to find out how his exams went.  And, shockingly, while he passed, he won't be coming back to Nowhere, Normandie, but he thinks they had a wonderful "experience".

And of course Agron's face falls and I'm like "well, this feels very familiar" and I decide to take advantage of the DVR and switch over right then to this episode.  

  Reveal spoiler

And it's as beautiful as ever, from "was I…not good?" to "It's what?  Bells ringing, fireworks, a dulcet choir of pretty little birdies?" to Angel's "Thoughtful" Finger.  So now I know that this episode isn't just memorable…it's trope-defining.  Well done, Joss.

And then I get back to the movie, and while Agron isn't going to Paris to kick Henri in the nuts, she does take a moment from planning to throw herself off of the parapet of the local church to look down and see the mafia hit squad converging on the house where DeNiro is and rushes down to save her dad, as Pfeiffer and her brother (John D'Leo) likewise do.  Of course DeNiro mostly saves himself (it's his movie, after all), but the "family" theme works (and BtVS was best when it had the Scoobs working together in this manner, IMO), and a rocket launcher factors into the big fight, so that's a homage of a different sort.

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by Halting Hex
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

I don't think that "give me time" is meant to be triumphant; it's Buffy showing determination in the face of the weakness she'd just admitted by implication.  (When she couldn't dispute Angel's assertion that she couldn't kill him.)  She's saving some face (and letting us have the joy of seeing Angel's ouch-face) but the episode never tries to present this as some great triumph.

Remember the very next scene shows Buffy tearing up in the Citroen, telling Giles "you must be so disappointed in me".  She knows she's failed.  She knows there will be consequences.  Which just makes the failure sting even harder.

  Quote

GILES: The coming months are going to be hard, I suspect, on all of us.  But if it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy…I'm not your man.

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Buffy's not meant to be perfect.  This is A Show About Growing Up, after.all.  She's still got some growing to do.  

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by Halting Hex
  • Love 4
lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

  On 12/18/2018 at 7:54 PM, Halting Hex said:

Buffy's not meant to be perfect.  This is A Show About Growing Up, after.all.  She's still got some growing to do.

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True. But as long as those issues do not make everyone else hostage to Buffy's Growing Up.
There's no need to wait or grow up

  Reveal spoiler

  if she can ask for Kendra's intervention

  Reveal spoiler

get out of the way and let the Slayer # 2 do the job.

  Reveal spoiler
Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

(edited)
  On 12/18/2018 at 5:02 PM, lembergwatcher said:

That scene at Sunnydale Mall...

Am I supposed to believe justice is served since Angelus is "on all fours now and can't move to follow" Buffy? Yes, the kick was very spectacular thing to watch.

  Reveal spoiler

Is it just me, or do we have a blatant case of an emotional manipulation here? I mean Joss is obviously trying to have his cake and eat it too: Angelus can't just get away with murder, but God forbid we stop pandering to Bangel 'shippers and let Buffy do what has to be done. Isn't the whole kick-in-the-crotch moment supposed to distract us from Buffy's own confirmation Angelus' is actually right ("You can't kill me")? Don't you think her walking away saying "Give me time" sends Angelus a message he's free to kill until Buffy finds the strength (and courage) to finish him off? 

  Reveal spoiler

Some fans claim the whole "Buffy kicks Angelus" moment to be one of the best in an ep (or the season in general). I hardly think so,

  Reveal spoiler

 

Expand  

Technically you're right but I think you're expecting too much of Buffy, like Xander can't just stake Jesse or the gang

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by Joe Hellandback
lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

  On 12/21/2018 at 5:28 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

I think you're expecting too much of Buffy, like Xander can't just stake Jesse

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Xander isn't the Slayer. Buffy is. I expect Buffy to do her job. That's it. And yes, Jesse was a sadistic mass-murderer who killed for two centuries leaving piles of bodies in his path.

  Reveal spoiler
Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 12/21/2018 at 5:51 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Xander isn't the Slayer. Buffy is. I expect Buffy to do her job. That's it. And yes, Jesse was a sadistic mass-murderer who killed for two centuries leaving piles of bodies in his path.

  Reveal spoiler
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Still doesn't make it easy for her and a vamps a vamp, who knows what Jesse would have gone on to do?

lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

  On 12/28/2018 at 3:06 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

who knows what Jesse would have gone on to do

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We will never know because Xander had the stake pointed at Jesse's chest, i.e. was determined not to let Vamp!Jesse doing any more harm even though Jesse was one of his two best friends. Besides Jesse was a vamp for only a few hours (we don't know whether he killed someone between the incident at the tunnels and the events at The Bronze or not) while Angelus had a history of mass-murder and killed at least two people before confronting Buffy at the mall.

Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 12/28/2018 at 5:58 PM, lembergwatcher said:

We will never know because Xander had the stake pointed at Jesse's chest, i.e. was determined not to let Vamp!Jesse doing any more harm even though Jesse was one of his two best friends. Besides Jesse was a vamp for only a few hours (we don't know whether he killed someone between the incident at the tunnels and the events at The Bronze or not) while Angelus had a history of mass-murder and killed at least two people before confronting Buffy at the mall.

Expand  

Same principle applies, Buffy could have finished Angel off just as easily. 

Halting Hex

Halting Hex

So, wait a second.  Does the fact that Xander's Janus-spell-induced "military knowledge" is what ultimately defeats the Judge mean that Ethan Rayne saved the world, however inadvertently?

See, Ripper, this is why you shouldn't mistreat* your old Bottom Boi; he's sometimes surprisingly useful.

*-emotionally, I mean; the physical aspect ("Oooh, Ripper, you're hurting me") Ethan seems reasonably okay with.  Kinky-dinky…

Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

Jenny Trout's Xander-hate gets annoying this episode;  she claims that the "say 'hi' for me" that X asks Willow to relay over the phone is "evidence" that he's slavering over Angel's potential death (Willow was just then having to reassure Buffy that Angel's absence didn't mean he'd been killed; unfortunately, she was right) and "Nice Guy" that he (supposedly) is, anticipating that this brings him one step closer to Buffy-muffy.  Umm…yeah.  

Or, back on the Earth planet, it's a pro forma politeness that he offers while being bored and distracted by the book he's currently researching in (which he finds so useless that he soon heads to the stacks to get a replacement, meeting a nose-wrinkling Cordelia there).  When Willow quirks an eyebrow at him after she ends the call with Buffy, she sure doesn't seem offended; it's more about her finding his contribution exceedingly prosaic, AFAICT.  Gee, sorry if Angel's theoretical imperilment doesn't make Xander hyperventilate, Will.  There is the trivial matter of the unstoppable planet-killing demon currently on the loose, if you've forgotten.

Then, when the Hallway Standoff ends with Angel kissing Buffy and tossing her into the wall, JT takes issue with Xander asking Buffy if she's okay. (Seriously??) "NO OBVIOUSLY NOT XANDER GOD"  (Yes, she really does use the all-caps. Sigh.)  I mean, aside from showing that Xander has manners, his inquiry serves two purposes:

1)  Angel just threw Buffy into a wall; inquiring after her physical health is not exactly unmerited.  Also,

2)  Buffy was clearly not okay, as noted, since she just stood there like a statue and let Angel kiss her, I'll agree.  But that just means that there's a benefit to trying to snap her out of her daze; a polite "are you okay?" is hardly the hanging offense it's being characterized as, IMO.

Still, I wouldn't reference someone's review just to complain about it;  Jenny does manage to hit a good point, appropriately enough about her namesake:

  Quote
  Quote

JENNY: But you didn’t know he’d turned bad?

WILLOW: How did you?

Expand  

And the point goes to Willow. Jenny says she knew because she’d seen his face. So… you just roam the halls of Sunnydale High armed with a cross?

Well, that’s not a bad idea, actually.

Expand  

Nicely spotted; I'd bought that Ms. Calendar had thought quickly enough to allay Willow's suspicions, but the "what are you doing with that big old cross, teacher-lady?" point had escaped me.

However, Ms. Trout is confused on another point; she doesn't understand how the rocket-launcher gets around the "no weapon forged" description of the Judge.  We understand Buffy doesn't kill him, she simply re-disassembles him (which is why she tells the group to keep the pieces apart), but the confusion occurs because Giles's recounting of the Judge's history was in Surprise, not this episode.

So perhaps the cut line referenced above 

  Quote

JUDGE: I fought an army.  They hacked me to pieces.  For six hundred years, I lay in the ground, my living head in a box.  I've learned to be patient.

Expand  

should have been included, after all.  Not merely for its entertainment value, but to clearly restate Buffy's Problem for the new episode.  Hmm.

Edited by Halting Hex
lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

  On 4/20/2019 at 9:35 PM, Halting Hex said:

Jenny Trout's Xander-hate gets annoying this episode

Expand  

Poor boy. Seems like whatever he does is constantly used against him.

  On 4/20/2019 at 9:35 PM, Halting Hex said:

JT takes issue with Xander asking Buffy if she's okay.

Expand  

I hope Ms. Trout doesn't take issues with Xander saving Willow or coming up with the plan how to stop the Judge in the exact same episode?

  Reveal spoiler
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

So I dug up this for posting elsewhere:

Was+it+good+for+you+too.jpg

…and for the first time ever, I noticed that Angel has omitted the necessary comma in front of "too".  (Also, I'm not exactly sanguine [pardon the pun] about "capitalizing" the first letter of each word by making it larger if you're already doing all-caps, but that's a stylistic choice.  The grammar error is an error, pure and simple.)

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Edited by Halting Hex
lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

  On 6/30/2019 at 12:28 AM, Halting Hex said:

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Expand  
  Reveal spoiler

And what if 18th century English grammar was slightly different? Besides, Angel was an Irishman and AFAIK back in 1750s English wasn't native language for vast majority of that country's population.

Halting Hex

Halting Hex

  On 6/30/2019 at 8:20 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Besides, Angel was an Irishman and AFAIK back in 1750s English wasn't native language for vast majority of that country's population.

Expand  

Then I suppose I should blame the Master, but the script for Welcome to the Hellmouth tells us that his name is Heinrich Josef Nest and he's Bavarian.  So no help there.

Of course, Angel's specific sire was Darla, and her "family" has been in America since the War of Independence…but Giles would probably say that we don't speak proper English, either.  However, as I noted in the School Hard thread, Giles has botched pronoun-gerund agreement at least twice that I'm aware of, so "England" better not be getting too hoity-toity, I'd say.

Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)
  Quote

BUFFY:  Leave Willow alone and deal with me.

ANGEL:  But she's so cute…and helpless.  Really a turn-on.

Expand  

Buffy can totally see Xander coming up behind Angel (with Jenny's Big Ol' Cross) during this.  She does a really good job of keeping Angel's attention solely on her and letting X (not exactly known for his stealthiness skills) get within "rescue Willow" range.

It's actually an effective police technique (I've seen it on Law & Order often enough).  I guess the Career Fair did have her pegged, after all. Polyester, donuts, and brutality aside.

Edited by Halting Hex
  • Love 2
Joe Hellandback

Joe Hellandback

  On 6/30/2019 at 12:28 AM, Halting Hex said:

So I dug up this for posting elsewhere:

Was+it+good+for+you+too.jpg

…and for the first time ever, I noticed that Angel has omitted the necessary comma in front of "too".  (Also, I'm not exactly sanguine [pardon the pun] about "capitalizing" the first letter of each word by making it larger if you're already doing all-caps, but that's a stylistic choice.  The grammar error is an error, pure and simple.)

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Expand  

Trust me, never watch 'Blakes 7'

watcher1006

watcher1006

(edited)
  On 9/18/2020 at 5:31 PM, Halting Hex said:

Buffy can totally see Xander coming up behind Angel (with Jenny's Big Ol' Cross) during this.  She does a really good job of keeping Angel's attention solely on her and letting X (not exactly known for his stealthiness skills) get within "rescue Willow" range.

It's actually an effective police technique (I've seen it on Law & Order often enough).  I guess the Career Fair did have her pegged, after all. Polyester, donuts, and brutality aside.

Expand  

Yes, contrast that with

  Reveal spoiler
Edited by watcher1006
Typo
  • Love 1
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)
  Quote

XANDER:  It was just kissing; it doesn't mean that much.

Expand  

While X's attempt to downplay his and Cordelia's smoochies may wound Willow's heart, the episode bears him out.  Only a few moments later, we see Buffy greet Angel at his apartment with a fervent kiss, but the feelings are definitely not returned there.  And we also see Oz refuse to kiss Willow because, with her emotions focused on Xander, it would be "kinda on the empty side".   Sometimes kissing really doesn't mean that much, it appears.

Which is hard news for those who were hoping the Angel/Spike kiss just before this would lead to something bigger…but so it goes.

************************************

Georgia Corsby (a video reactor) and her friend, Aaron, were a bit surprised by Oz pulling van duty, since one could get into serious trouble for "stealing weapons from the army", after all.  And it's not as if Oz really hangs with this crowd;  he literally only found out about the whole "vampires are real" thing two nights before.  (Monday-Buffy had a prophetic dream; Tuesday-Buffy has a party, gets wet, surrenders her flower; Wednesday-Angel leaves Buffy a sobbing wreck;  Thursday-Buffy blows up the vampires' plans at the mall.)  Aaron makes the point that Cordelia has assimilated into the group, but Georgia counters that Out of Mind, Out of Sight showed how unhappy she was with her "popular" crowd, whereas Oz has his band and an entirely different life.  (And again…two days.  He hasn't even been to a Scooby meeting, yet.)  

But he has apparently been obsessing about Willow for months (going back to Inca Mummy Girl), so…never underestimate the power of a cute redhead, it seems.

(Or…he's just really stoned.  One or the other, I suppose.)

There was also discussion of whether Drusilla should be able to recognize the rocket launcher and scramble out of the way, rather than just stand transfixed, as the Judge does, but I think we're on good ground there.   Aside from the general "if they're pointing it at you, it's probably not good news" concept, we know that Spike and Drusilla watch television together, as mentioned at the end of School Hard and as evident from the bank of TVs Spike subsequently installs at the Factory.  Hardly surprising that "William the Bloody" might have taken in a few dozen or so war movies, with his girlfriend at his side.

I mean, they can't just sit around and watch The Price is Right;  Spike's bound to get bored with Dru always knowing the exact price, I'd think.  Bring on the battle scenes!

Edited by Halting Hex
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

  Quote

OZ (on why he won't kiss Willow):  Well, to the casual observer, it might seem as though you're trying to make your friend Xander jealous, or…even the score?

Expand  

Hey, wait…how does Oz know about all this?  I wouldn't have been certain he knew about Willow's interest in Xander, much less the whole "X//C secretly dating" bit.  Must have been some hard stares going around that van on the drive over, I suppose.

My head canon is that Cordelia attempted an apology, taking the responsibility for having kept her…whatever with Xander a secret on herself, and telling Willow not to blame him.  But if that happened, clearly Willow was in no mood to hear it.  

  Reveal spoiler

 

lembergwatcher

lembergwatcher

(edited)
  On 2/28/2021 at 7:44 PM, Halting Hex said:

Hey, wait…how does Oz know about all this?

Expand  

Isn't

  Reveal spoiler

Besides, he might have heard something while Willow babbled on their way to Buffy's birthday party (about W/X, not X/C). Then, as you said, Oz could have caught some vibes between the three Scoobs as he drove his van to their destination... Let us say, Oz is a very sensitive guy with some deductive skills or whatever and a poetic soul.

Edited by lembergwatcher
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

So, while I'd seen Georgia and Aaron's reaction vid to this in January (see comment above), I looked at it again, now that I've gone through (almost) their entire catalogue (they've just done 2.17), and there's this bit in the tag:

  Quote

JOYCE:  So, are you excited to go to the mall on Saturday?

AARON:  Christ, not the mall again.

Expand  

I'd never thought of this before, but yeah, the mall where they have the final showdown with the Judge here must be the same mall as Bad Eggs, as the "mom-sponsored shopping expedition" Joyce has been dangling in front of Buffy's eyes.  I mean, a "one-Starbucks town" is unlikely to have more than one mall, right?  If nothing else, there'd be at least one Starbucks per mall, presumably.

(They did use two different locations in filming the episodes.  The mall in Bad Eggs was the famous Galleria in Sherman Oaks [as featured in the movie Valley Girl], whereas this one was a shuttered department store in downtown LA.  But that's outside the story.  For those in Sunnydale, it's the same mall.)

So Buffy got to spend her Saturday not looking for dresses than make her look like "a thin streetwalker", but surreptitiously scanning the floor to see if any random Judge-parts got left behind.  No wonder she seems less-than-enthused when Joyce raises the subject.

Basically, Angel took her innocence, broke her heart, betrayed her, terrorized Willow, ruined Buffy's birthday AND spoiled her and Joyce's shopping time.  Bastard.  Grrr…

Edited by Halting Hex
Halting Hex

Halting Hex

(edited)

So, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of reactors are just confused as anything as to what's happening at the start of the teaser.  (They don't necessarily mind, because suspense, but they're all like "wtf was that ending [to Surprise]?") And I can't help but think that this means that Marti Noxon botched the structure of 2.13:  either she should have ended with Angel and Buffy happily in bed (but some ominous minor-key music on the soundtrack), or we should have gotten the entire teaser from this to wrap things up, with "I feel just fine" ending the episode as "to be continued" flashed over Angel's vampiric face.  But the cheap shock of "Angel wakes up, runs outside, and moans Buffy's name while in the rain" just leaves everyone confused without advancing the plot, IMO.

(Some, such as David Hines, have mocked Angel's ability to get dressed while in distress, but as I've never had my soul sucked out, I can't authoritatively state what the timeline should be here.  The idea that Angel couldn't fight off the pain for long enough to put on pants seems speculative at best, I'd say.)

****************************************

I've seen reviews that mention the red sheets visible on Angel's bed during the "was I not good?" scene, but I've only just gotten the symbolism that set decorator David Koneff is employing.  Buffy went to her virginal bed which had white sheets (as seen by the shot her in that bed during the teaser), but now that she's surrendered the flower, the sheets are red.  Oh, my.

"Oh, that's what that song is about!" —Willow, Lie to Me.  Indeed.

*************************************

Of course, Angel not only changed the sheets and made the bed while Buffy was out of the apartment, he also changes clothes on his visit.  As much as I approve of the black button-up shirt Angel wears for the first half of the ep (is this the first button-up he's worn since the premiere?  I was sick of those stupid v-necks and wife-beaters under his jacket…who does that?), that chocolate-brown silk shirt he puts on during the scene with Buffy is even nicer, IMO.

Apparently, Angel likes it, too, since he's still wearing it during the final fight with Buffy at the mall…which is the next day.  (Angel breaks Buffy's heart and tries to kill Willow on Wednesday, Buffy cries herself to sleep, then the mall battle is Thursday night.) Ewww, Angel!  You couldn't have packed a spare?  Or heck, send a minion around to pick up a few changes of clothing for however long you're planning on staying at the factory with Spike and Dru.  (We know from Lie to Me that there's one minion ["Lucius"] who knows how to drive a car, at least.)

I mean, yes, vampires probably don't sweat so much and the shirt ended up getting washed pretty thoroughly by the sprinklers during the fight with Buffy, anyhow.   But still. Classy vampires change their clothes; I'm just saying.

Edited by Halting Hex

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