S02.E14: Innocence

[Mya Stone]

 

Buffy and her friends battle the Judge and face unexpected danger from Angel, who has lost his soul after experiencing a moment of true happiness.

 

This episode marks the turning point for all viewers, I think. This is when the show became something more than just something to watch on a Monday/Tuesday night. For myself, it touched on so many things that I had to deal with as a teenage girl. First love. First loss. What happens the next day after giving everything you have to give to a boy you love. Plus, a rocket launcher. 

SMG ran the gamut. Her uncertainty, and vulnerability, being peeled away, leaving the steely resolve that Buffy was known for as the years went on. This is truly the episode that she grew up. This is not just about the rise of Angelus (and btw, I forgot how much I love him - he's just such a gleeful asshole - and yes, that's my type) There is so much depth here, that even all these years later I can still talk about the episode at length. 

Alas, I won't. I will leave you with one word: 

 

"Arm?" And with that, Oz cemented his place in my heart forever. 

[DAngelus]

Greatest episode of the greatest season of television I have ever seen.  Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.  Dru names the stars, Cordelia wrinkes her nose, Angel kisses Spike, it's all good.

 

"No, Xander's right!  My god, you people are all—well, I'm upset and I can't think of a bad word right now, but that's what you are…and we're going to the factory!"

 

Aw, Willow.  Followed by:

 

"Buffy! We were just going to rescue you."

"Well, some of us were." (pointed glance)

"Well, I-I would have."

 

Aw, Giles.  (I think he would have, too.)

 

One time I did a scene-by-scene analysis of the episode, noting what I loved about each and every moment.  It's in the waybacked TWoP archives; perhaps I'll pull it out some day.

 

Lastly, one of the great cut lines of all time, from the Judge, when Spike is nagging him during the opening scene:

 

"I fought an army.  They hacked me to pieces.  For six hundred years, I lay in the ground, my living head in a box.  I've learned to be patient."

 

I can see that line getting trimmed as unnecessary, but I still love it.

Edited July 10, 2014 by DAngelus

[VCRTracking]

Oz: "Uhhh....arm!"

[Jazzy24]

Awww..... "Innocence"

Poor Buffy in this episode.

I love this episode but I didn't like how Buffy got punished for having sex, by having her boyfriend become a evil monster. Or the idea that guys turn into completely different people after you have sex with them.

But I liked this episode.

- SMG can cry and Buffy breaking down in her room with the Buffy/Angel theme song playing in the background was so sad and I cried for Buffy.

- Xander being the man with the plan

-Oz and Willow having a nice conversation in the van

- Buffy looking so badass with that rocket and giving Angelus a good kick in the nuts

-Giles having a great conversation in the car with Buffy about how he will give her his support

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

I do love Angelus he's so much fun but so obvious.

[wingster55]

Cordelia wrinkes her nose,

 

Gotta love the nose wrinkle. (No, really)

Need to rewatch this ep before making a substantial post. 

[romantic idiot]

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

This. Most of the episode, I'm bewildered, discovering things with Buffy. And there's the kickass moment of Buffy demolishing the judge. But every time I've watched this episode - this scene brings the tears. Always. It's magic. Just the loss of hope is a kick in the stomach. And I"ll confess the only reason I can stand watching it is because I know what happens afterwards. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have been able to watch this series. 

[Dianthus]

Sex and gender roles are definitely at issue throughout BtVS. In this ep., Angelus kills a hooker, then refers to Buffy as a "real pro." Also, Xander casts Cordelia in the role of a hooker-type.

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

"Let it burn" Buffy says at the end of this ep.

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.

[DAngelus]

Quote

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

 

Pretty much every weapon Buffy uses is "phallic", though.  Stakes, swords, a flaming sewer pipe.  (Those darn penises are everywhere!)  Does this mean that she secretly lusts for Machida or Lurconis? (Both of whom are pretty phallic themselves, by the way.)  Sometimes a rocket launcher is just a rocket launcher, IMO.

 

And given that the fight between Buffy and Angel in the "rain" of the movie theater symbolizes the death of their love, and that Buffy's foot quite nearly impairs Angel's ability for any sex whatsoever, it's not the best violence=sex connection I could ever draw.  I'd say it's more about Buffy and Angel's love dying as it was consummated; transitional imagery, not about correlation.  But JMO.

 

Quote

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.

Neither of those cases is about actual fire, though, so a connection to "I think I'll just let it burn" is unmerited, IMO.  Also, Buffy's line here is about the fire going out and the death of her hope,

Spoiler

 

so even if one claims that the S6 examples show some sort of Buffy/Spike "connection", that really wouldn't pertain to this episode, unless one wants to argue that Buffy doesn't "get the fire back" at any time between now and mid-S6.  Which would undercut the conventional reading of S3-S5 quite a bit, as well as Buffy's own statements in S6 that it's her return from Heeeeeaven that has affected her, not anything before that.

 

Also, the S6 examples are not actually talking about the same thing, semi-matching imagery or not.  Buffy is speaking about a general lack of passion, desire and vitality in her life, qualities that remain missing even after she starts getting regular injections of Ice Penis.  In contrast, Spike's "torch" is about his unrequited lust for Buffy. (Further, even if Buffy's issues had been purely sexual, why should that make Spike's lust particularly important?  Plenty of men have had unrequited desire for Buffy over the series, going back to Xander in the pilot episode. Is Ben now suddenly Buffy's soulmate because he wanted to take her for coffee?)

 

On the other hand, I do think we get hard evidence that Spike carries "a torch" for Buffy;  didn't he have a flashlight when they explored the Initiative complex in The Killer in Me?  So there's that, at lest.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 7/4/2014 at 9:43 PM, Mya Stone said:

 

This episode marks the turning point for all viewers, I think. This is when the show became something more than just something to watch on a Monday/Tuesday night. For myself, it touched on so many things that I had to deal with as a teenage girl. First love. First loss. What happens the next day after giving everything you have to give to a boy you love. Plus, a rocket launcher. 

SMG ran the gamut. Her uncertainty, and vulnerability, being peeled away, leaving the steely resolve that Buffy was known for as the years went on. This is truly the episode that she grew up. This is not just about the rise of Angelus (and btw, I forgot how much I love him - he's just such a gleeful asshole - and yes, that's my type) There is so much depth here, that even all these years later I can still talk about the episode at length. 

Alas, I won't. I will leave you with one word: 

 

"Arm?" And with that, Oz cemented his place in my heart forever. 

It is marvellous for all the reasons you've underlined but I never got people's fandom for (and sometimes devotion to) Angelus?

On 7/4/2014 at 11:37 PM, DAngelus said:

Greatest episode of the greatest season of television I have ever seen.  Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.  Dru names the stars, Cordelia wrinkes her nose, Angel kisses Spike, it's all good.

 

 

Aw, Willow.  Followed by:

 

 

Aw, Giles.  (I think he would have, too.)

 

One time I did a scene-by-scene analysis of the episode, noting what I loved about each and every moment.  It's in the waybacked TWoP archives; perhaps I'll pull it out some day.

 

Lastly, one of the great cut lines of all time, from the Judge, when Spike is nagging him during the opening scene:

 

 

I can see that line getting trimmed as unnecessary, but I still love it.

 

How much scarier if it had been what we see in the comics in which case it isn't Willow but

Spoiler

Dawnie who is threatened. 

 

On 7/5/2014 at 12:55 AM, VCRTracking said:

Oz: "Uhhh....arm!"

Actually prefer his line in the previous ep where he says 'No it explains a lot'

On 7/5/2014 at 6:19 AM, Jazzy24 said:

Awww..... "Innocence"

Poor Buffy in this episode.

I love this episode but I didn't like how Buffy got punished for having sex, by having her boyfriend become a evil monster. Or the idea that guys turn into completely different people after you have sex with them.

But I liked this episode.

- SMG can cry and Buffy breaking down in her room with the Buffy/Angel theme song playing in the background was so sad and I cried for Buffy.

- Xander being the man with the plan

-Oz and Willow having a nice conversation in the van

- Buffy looking so badass with that rocket and giving Angelus a good kick in the nuts

-Giles having a great conversation in the car with Buffy about how he will give her his support

-Buffy again making me sad just letting her candle burn.

I do love Angelus he's so much fun but so obvious.

I do love that final scene, SMG and KS play it so beautifully, no matter what happens to Buffy it will all be okay as long as can come home to Joyce's

Spoiler

and Dawn's

loving arms.

 

On 7/5/2014 at 2:34 PM, wingster55 said:

Gotta love the nose wrinkle. (No, really)

Need to rewatch this ep before making a substantial post. 

Yeah, one of CC's little acting traits, you can see her doing it as far back as Baywatch. 

 

On 7/8/2014 at 12:41 PM, romantic idiot said:

This. Most of the episode, I'm bewildered, discovering things with Buffy. And there's the kickass moment of Buffy demolishing the judge. But every time I've watched this episode - this scene brings the tears. Always. It's magic. Just the loss of hope is a kick in the stomach. And I"ll confess the only reason I can stand watching it is because I know what happens afterwards. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have been able to watch this series. 

Yeah, it's a wrencher, isn't it? I wasn't online when they showed this ep but the boards must have gone utterly crazy. 

 

On 7/9/2014 at 5:39 PM, Dianthus said:

Sex and gender roles are definitely at issue throughout BtVS. In this ep., Angelus kills a hooker, then refers to Buffy as a "real pro." Also, Xander casts Cordelia in the role of a hooker-type.

Buffy is toting a phallic symbol (the rocket launcher) to destroy the Judge, whose smoking remnants will set off the mall's sprinkler system. Buffy and Angelus get wet as they're fighting, just as Buffy and Angel got wet in the rain the night before. There's that link between sex and violence again.

"Let it burn" Buffy says at the end of this ep.

Buffy wants the fire back in s6.

Spike carries a torch for her.

Don't forget his taunting message to Buffy after killing Jenny's uncle?

 

On 7/9/2014 at 10:33 PM, DAngelus said:

 

Pretty much every weapon Buffy uses is "phallic", though.  Stakes, swords, a flaming sewer pipe.  (Those darn penises are everywhere!)  Does this mean that she secretly lusts for Machida or Lurconis? (Both of whom are pretty phallic themselves, by the way.)  Sometimes a rocket launcher is just a rocket launcher, IMO.

 

And given that the fight between Buffy and Angel in the "rain" of the movie theater symbolizes the death of their love, and that Buffy's foot quite nearly impairs Angel's ability for any sex whatsoever, it's not the best violence=sex connection I could ever draw.  I'd say it's more about Buffy and Angel's love dying as it was consummated; transitional imagery, not about correlation.  But JMO.

 

Neither of those cases is about actual fire, though, so a connection to "I think I'll just let it burn" is unmerited, IMO.  Also, Buffy's line here is about the fire going out and the death of her hope

Spoiler

 

, so even if one claims that the S6 examples show some sort of Buffy/Spike "connection", that really wouldn't pertain to this episode, unless one wants to argue that Buffy doesn't "get the fire back" at any time between now and mid-S6.  Which would undercut the conventional reading of S3-S5 quite a bit, as well as Buffy's own statements in S6 that it's her return from Heeeeeaven that has affected her, not anything before that.

 

Also, the S6 examples are not actually talking about the same thing, semi-matching imagery or not.  Buffy is speaking about a general lack of passion, desire and vitality in her life, qualities that remain missing even after she starts getting regular injections of Ice Penis.  In contrast, Spike's "torch" is about his unrequited lust for Buffy. (Further, even if Buffy's issues had been purely sexual, why should that make Spike's lust particularly important?  Plenty of men have had unrequited desire for Buffy over the series, going back to Xander in the pilot episode. Is Ben now suddenly Buffy's soulmate because he wanted to take her for coffee?)

 

On the other hand, I do think we get hard evidence that Spike carries "a torch" for Buffy;  didn't he have a flashlight when they explored the Initiative complex in The Killer in Me?  So there's that, at lest.

 

 

You always wonder does Spike actually crave Buffy because of little brother jealousy of Angelus and his relationship with Dru?

Innocence

The Good; As Joss says "Buffy in pain, show good!" And he really puts her, Jenny and Giles through the wringer here (Willow also has her pain but Oz is there to thankfully not kiss it better) But you know what? It doesn't matter because in the final scene she ends up back in Joyce's loving arms

Spoiler

(and Dawn's in everyone's memory)

and it's all too beautiful for words. Stunningly brilliant in every way, quite possibly the best episode of Buffy ever.

The Bad; Ummmmmm? Actually one thing I don't like is Angelus killing the hooker in the alley (Sophia Crawford, SMG's stunt double). She is lovely in a trashy sort of way, the Gorch's were wrong! Such a misogynistic cliché, couldn't he have killed some guy emptying the bins or something?

Best line; Xander (to Cordy) "Wear something trashy...er" (unkind actually as CC's outfit is very nice although a little school-uniformish). Plus; Giles; "I'd say we've hit rock bottom" Xander; "I have a plan" Cordy; "Oh no, there's a lower place!" But best dialogue; Joyce; "So how was your birthday?" Buffy; "Got older" Joyce "You don't look any different to me" (nice contrast between the scene where Joyce senses something different about Buffy after she's lost her virginity)

What the fanficcers thought; Angelus kills Buffy's Scoobs but others (Harmony, Jonathon, Amy, Larry etc) take their place-Deadscoobies.

Questions and observations; So much good stuff, the dream sequence and the scene where Angelus kills Jenny's uncle especially good. But how does he know he's in town? Did Dru have a vision? So Sunnydale has it's own army base

Spoiler

(couldn't the Initiative have been based there?) How come Spike is prepared to destroy the world now but not in Becoming pt2? Although, like the Harvest or Adam or the Mayor turning into a big snake it would have been bad but would the Judge really have been the end of the world? Buffy using a firearm is a rare sight (I always thought she chucked it away afterwards but obviously she saves it for Season 7 'Him', couldn't she have used it on Adam or Glory?).

as well as an airport big enough for a 747, zoo, docks etc Not bad for a town of under 40,000 (The Mayor's influence?).  You can start to see his jealousy of Dru and Angelus almost from the start, without Darla the Fanged Four are out of balance. It was always one of the things that troubled me about the supernatural threat, that really faced with modern technology they're not really up to much, the Hellgods from 'Cabin in the Woods' have a tactical nuke with their names on it (love the Judge's ignorance of what he's facing followed inevitably by death) Buffy says she beat up Willy the Snitch again.

I think most people fell in love at this point with Oz, ironically because he DOESN'T want to kiss Willow. Jenny leaves the Scoobies here and realistically will never get back in. Alison Hannigan shows some superb acting skills upon her discovery of Xander/Cordy but all the actors really shine here. Oz joins the Scoobies from the beginning. This makes the Scoobs officially; 1. Buffy 2. Giles 3. Willow 4. Xander 5. Angel (for the course of the ep at least) 6. Jenny 7. Cordy 8. Oz the biggest they'll ever be until season 5

10/10 and more of I could make it, just superb and a whole new era for Buffy

[Halting Hex]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

How much scarier [would the hallway walk towards Angelus have been] if it had been what we see in the comics in which case it isn't Willow but

  Hide contents

Dawnie who is threatened. 

Actually, not much.  Arguably less.  This is the key argument against the inclusion of 

Spoiler

Dawn; it necessitates re-writing events to diminish the Scooby "family" in favor of Buffy's literal family.  (One fanfic I saw had Xander feeling useless because he "remembered" Brave 12-year-old Dawn facing down Angelus in the "White Knight" scene from Killed by Death while Xander watched, helplessly.)  She steals the Scoobs' rightful place in each others' memories just as she steals their place in Buffy's affections…forget Spike, she's the real vampire in this bunch.

And so the Scoobs get sectioned off into their pointless subplots, tied to the Blank Wall of Wiccan Sanctimony or the Entitled Bitch from (Literally) Hell, barely interacting with each other, never mind Buffy.   And Giles gets to spend a year as the Friendly Neighborhood Drugpusher before being completely written off.  (Yes, yes, time with his family, I know.  ASH found the time to spend half of S7 on this side of the pond; leave Giles an important part of the [no longer really a] group and I bet he'd have stuck around for S6 as well.)

Beautiful episode; no need to rewrite it, IMO.

Nice nuance:  when Willow is trying to reassure Buffy on the phone in Act II (just before she surprises C/X in the stacks), she's insisting that Angel's disappearance is part of a "plan", it's just a "plan I'm not a part of".  But, it turns out, Willow is part of Angel's plan, or rather message:  "It's not really the kind of of message you tell. It sort of involves finding the dead bodies of all of your friends!"

(Hey, I didn't say she'd enjoy being part of the plan.  Just that she was.)

On July 4, 2014 at 8:37 PM, DAngelus said:

Every time Willow takes that first step down the dark hallway towards Angel (already in vamp-face, although you can barely see it), I shiver.

Yeah, not so much with the overly-bright "new versions", I'm afraid.  You can see the vamp-face plain as day.  I'm almost expecting Willow to say "Hi, Angel, what's with the fangs?  Do you need a drink?  We can get some steaks from the cafeteria."  In words of one syllable…"sheesh".

[Halting Hex]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Angelus killing the hooker in the alley (Sophia Crawford, SMG's stunt double)

Is that really Sophia?  She's credited as "Carla Madden".  (I'm not saying it couldn't be SC, not after the Joey "Clayne" Crawford business from earlier in the year; I'm just wondering.)

Asian Dan is in Jenny's class.  Good for him, computers are a useful subject to study.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 10:53 AM, nosleepforme said:

That last scene was a thing of beauty, just a normal mother-daughter moment, Buffy watching an old movie with Joyce. These kind of moments when Buffy gets to live a little normal life are always treasured by me. I also loved the conversation with Giles at the end, where he tells her that she will not be getting any blame from him, only respect. I feel like scenes like that round out the adult characters much more. In most teen shows, the adult characters are only positioned as dramatic obstacle, here they're supportive.

 

It would have been interesting to have seen what kind of reaction the episode got upon the original airing, but I did not have internet at the time (I think I was 10).

Absolutely, when in later seasons we

Spoiler

we lost Joyce you looked back at these scenes and appreciated them all the more. Thankfully Buffy had Dawn. 

Yeah, I didn't really get online until the end of season 6, it was a glorious 3 years.  

[lembergwatcher]

One of my favorite Angelus/Angel's image in the series ever. Although stake to the heart would have been better.

[lembergwatcher]

Facial expressions. One of those things I love the most about that episode.
 

Edited September 19, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Facial expressions. One of those things I love the most about that episode.
 

It's great how DB slips into Angelus purely through facial experssions. Ah, Alysson Hannigan Queen of Pain although SMG gives her a run for her money in this ep. 

[Halting Hex]

53 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

t's great how DB slips into Angelus purely through facial experssions.

And posture. I've seen contemporary commentary that said they knew Angel had lost his soul just because he was standing straight up (for once!) in the alley, before he even turned and bit the hooker.

A century's worth of guilt almost literally lifted off of his shoulders.  No more slouching and skulking for (ex-)Broody Boy, it seems.

[Halting Hex]

From a review I just read:

Quote

We learn later on that the curse that the gypsies placed on Angel was meant to torture him with guilt and that it would be broken if he ever achieved true happiness, which I guess in Angel’s case involves taking a seventeen-year old girl’s virginity. 

Well, when you put it that way, lol…hey, you find your "true happiness" where you can, I guess.

Just kidding, of course.  I'm sure Buffy made it special for him.  Otherwise, Angel will be facepalming every time he walks by the Bronze, going "I can't believe I didn't think of that before!"

[lembergwatcher]

Innocence continues to be one of my favorite eps. Though if I had a say in anything, I would replace one annoying scene (W/O conversation in the van) with something like this:

Quote

Sunnydale High's hallway. Cordelia's heading towards her locker only to spot Willow standing by with her arms crossed and the pissed-off look on her face.
CORDELIA (tryin' to act as if nothing had happened): Hi, Willow. What's up?

WILLOW (keeping her eyes on the other girl): Four words, Cordy.
CORDELIA (slightly surprised): Four words?.. What words? What are you talkin' about?
WILLOW: Four words (gets a little bit closer).

CORDELIA (putting an annoyed expression on her face): Oh, I see... We're speaking in riddles, aren't we?
WILLOW (comes even closer giving Cordy a ripperish glare she learned from Giles, though the other girl still stands there): Xander. Is. Mine. Bitch.

CORDELIA (not backing away and taking her usual Queen Bitch of SH stand): Gee, looks like little Willow finally got a backbone (crossing her arms). Now you listen to me, kiddo...
Cordy's unable to finish, 'cause Willow punches her in the face. Cordelia goes down hitting the floor.
WILLOW (rubs her fist while looking at Cordelia laying on the floor and rubbing her jaw): You have been warned, Cordy (turns around and starts walking away). Go over my head again and I'll have yours on a platter. You will find out who the real queen is. Bye.

CORDELIA (watching the redhead in awe): Ouch.

Edited October 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Easy there, now.  Willow wouldn't be Willow if she wasn't so Willow-y, and that's part of why we (well, the "I" part of "we", anyway) love her so.

Besides, Xander should probably get some say in whose he "is", too.  Agency…it's not just a girl thing, you know.

Spoiler

Save your punching skills for Anya in Döppelgängland, Will.  Now that's a good cause.

"Ow, ow, ow!  Happy, but ow." Awww. Ow, but aw.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Besides, Xander should probably get some say in whose he "is", too.

What Xander wants is not what he needs :)

[Halting Hex]

Well, he does know that.  "I sometimes want things that are not good for me," as he said in Ted.

Spoiler

But have a little faith.  The "I love you" is coming, soon enough.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 2:19 PM, Halting Hex said:

From a review I just read:

Well, when you put it that way, lol…hey, you find your "true happiness" where you can, I guess.

Just kidding, of course.  I'm sure Buffy made it special for him.  Otherwise, Angel will be facepalming every time he walks by the Bronze, going "I can't believe I didn't think of that before!"

I doubt it, I'm sure if it was just extreme sexual pleasure then ex-pro Darla or group sex with the Furies sisters would do the trick. I remember a bizarre discussion on the Bronze where it was mooted that if Dru was a virgin when sired would her vamp healing mean she stayed a virgin constantly? We got into some weird discourse. 

[lembergwatcher]

That scene at Sunnydale Mall...

Quote

Angelus: You can't do it. You can't kill me.

Her anger takes over and she kicks him extremely hard in the crotch. Angelus grabs his groin and moans in extreme pain. He collapses to his knees. Buffy turns her back on him and walks away.

Buffy: Give me time.

Angelus is on all fours now and can't move to follow her.

Am I supposed to believe justice is served since Angelus is "on all fours now and can't move to follow" Buffy? Yes, the kick was very spectacular thing to watch.

Spoiler

OTOH, as much as I love to see Angelus clutching his privates and moaning in pain, that didn't prevent him from killing Theresa, attempting to kill Xander, killing Jenny, attempting to kill Buffy herself, killing Lord knows how many innocent people after impersonating Grace Newman, attempting to kill Gage Petronzi, sacrificing that poor guy to awake Acathla or torturing Giles.

Is it just me, or do we have a blatant case of an emotional manipulation here? I mean Joss is obviously trying to have his cake and eat it too: Angelus can't just get away with murder, but God forbid we stop pandering to Bangel 'shippers and let Buffy do what has to be done. Isn't the whole kick-in-the-crotch moment supposed to distract us from Buffy's own confirmation Angelus' is actually right ("You can't kill me")? Don't you think her walking away saying "Give me time" sends Angelus a message he's free to kill until Buffy finds the strength (and courage) to finish him off? 

Spoiler

"Give me time" turned out to be sort of death warrant for many people.

Some fans claim the whole "Buffy kicks Angelus" moment to be one of the best in an ep (or the season in general). I hardly think so,

Spoiler

'cause it failed to achieve both things the Slayer's mission was all about - saving lives and slaying vamps.

Edited December 18, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

(Ooooh, I'd forgotten that I'd written but failed to post what follows about a month back.  It's arguably slightly OT and somewhat silly, but I'll give a more-serious answer to the above post later. )

So last week [Ed: meaning, November] I'm watching The Family, the 2013 comedy with Robert DeNiro as a mobster who had to relocate to a small town in Normandy, France for witness protection, with Tommy Lee Jones as the FBI monitor, and there's a scene where DeNiro's wife (Michelle Pfeiffer) is telling their teen daughter (Dianna Agron) to make sure she has protection if she's going to be hanging out with the local boys, since she lost her virginity to DeNiro when he "jumped on [her]" in church, of all places.

And Agron scoffs at this, saying she can handle herself (we've already had a scene where she beats the absolute shit out of a French kid who tried to get handsy with her, although she might not always have that tennis racquet available) and when she loses her virginity, it will be at a time and place of her choosing, and with her "soulmate".  Which seems well and good, but before long she's falling for a cute student teacher, and seducing him in a deserted classroom before he goes to Paris to take his final accreditation exams.  And before we know it, she's calling "Henri" in Paris to find out how his exams went.  And, shockingly, while he passed, he won't be coming back to Nowhere, Normandie, but he thinks they had a wonderful "experience".

And of course Agron's face falls and I'm like "well, this feels very familiar" and I decide to take advantage of the DVR and switch over right then to this episode.  

Spoiler

(Okay, arguably more Parker than Angel, but I don't have The Harsh Light of Day in there.  And that's the weaker ep, anyhow.)

And it's as beautiful as ever, from "was I…not good?" to "It's what?  Bells ringing, fireworks, a dulcet choir of pretty little birdies?" to Angel's "Thoughtful" Finger.  So now I know that this episode isn't just memorable…it's trope-defining.  Well done, Joss.

And then I get back to the movie, and while Agron isn't going to Paris to kick Henri in the nuts, she does take a moment from planning to throw herself off of the parapet of the local church to look down and see the mafia hit squad converging on the house where DeNiro is and rushes down to save her dad, as Pfeiffer and her brother (John D'Leo) likewise do.  Of course DeNiro mostly saves himself (it's his movie, after all), but the "family" theme works (and BtVS was best when it had the Scoobs working together in this manner, IMO), and a rocket launcher factors into the big fight, so that's a homage of a different sort.

Spoiler

And while I could do the standard "degrees" here (Tommy Lee Jones was in a zillion movies with Will Smith, Will Smith was in Suicide Squad with Robin Atkin Downes [Machida], so 3), that's just boring.  So let's have the "salacious [and possibly untrue] lesbian rumors" version instead, shall we?

Agron was dating Taylor Swift at the time (yeah, yeah, she cheated, Taylor, but you got two great albums out of it, so deal) and TS moved on (eventually) to Karlie Kloss, who was probably just using her but at least had the decency to wait until Taylor was literally on the other side of the planet (Perth, Australia) before her "wedding" to Jared Kushner's gay brother so there wouldn't be awkward questions about why Taylor skipped her "bff's" ceremony.  Years back, the young Karlie was "very good friends" with DJ Leigh Lezark (The Misfits) and before Kloss, Lezark was "seen about town" with Michelle Trachtenberg for most of 2010, so that's what…5?

(Or infinity, if some of that it bull, I suppose.  But it's fun.  For everyone.  

"'Everyone', of course, meaning 'me'." —Mayor to Allan and Trick, Bad Girls)

Edited December 18, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

I don't think that "give me time" is meant to be triumphant; it's Buffy showing determination in the face of the weakness she'd just admitted by implication.  (When she couldn't dispute Angel's assertion that she couldn't kill him.)  She's saving some face (and letting us have the joy of seeing Angel's ouch-face) but the episode never tries to present this as some great triumph.

Remember the very next scene shows Buffy tearing up in the Citroen, telling Giles "you must be so disappointed in me".  She knows she's failed.  She knows there will be consequences.  Which just makes the failure sting even harder.

Quote

GILES: The coming months are going to be hard, I suspect, on all of us.  But if it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy…I'm not your man.

Buffy's not meant to be perfect.  This is A Show About Growing Up, after.all.  She's still got some growing to do.  

Spoiler

But she grows from "give me time" to sending Angel to Hell with his soul, so it wasn't entirely a wasted 20 weeks, IMO.

And yes, there will costs along the way.  But that's part of the process.  Much as I hate Angel for what happens to Jenny, I really can't blame Buffy here.

(And you omitted Travis and his neatly-arranged children from the death toll above.  Angel may have found That Pesky Soul in his other trousers before we get to meet First!Travis in Amends, but Travis's clothing clearly marks him as a 1998-vintage Angel-victim.  My personal canon is that he was the owner of that "abandoned" mansion on Crawford St., but there's nothing specific to support that, I'll allow.)

Edited December 18, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy's not meant to be perfect.  This is A Show About Growing Up, after.all.  She's still got some growing to do.

True. But as long as those issues do not make everyone else hostage to Buffy's Growing Up.
There's no need to wait or grow up

Spoiler

(driving the situation to the point when there's nothing left but sending Angel to hell)

  if she can ask for Kendra's intervention

Spoiler

(immediately, not after the months-long reign of terror),

get out of the way and let the Slayer # 2 do the job.

Spoiler

And we both know that no matter how hard Buffy tried she has never really outgrown her biggest issue: letting personal stuff get in the way and cloud her judgement on far too many ocassions. "Angel!Angel!Angel!" will give way to "Dawn!Dawn!Dawn!" and then "Spike!Spike!Spike!".

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎18‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:02 PM, lembergwatcher said:

That scene at Sunnydale Mall...

Am I supposed to believe justice is served since Angelus is "on all fours now and can't move to follow" Buffy? Yes, the kick was very spectacular thing to watch.

  Hide contents

OTOH, as much as I love to see Angelus clutching his privates and moaning in pain, that didn't prevent him from killing Theresa, attempting to kill Xander, killing Jenny, attempting to kill Buffy herself, killing Lord knows how many innocent people after impersonating Grace Newman, attempting to kill Gage Petronzi, sacrificing that poor guy to awake Acathla or torturing Giles.

Is it just me, or do we have a blatant case of an emotional manipulation here? I mean Joss is obviously trying to have his cake and eat it too: Angelus can't just get away with murder, but God forbid we stop pandering to Bangel 'shippers and let Buffy do what has to be done. Isn't the whole kick-in-the-crotch moment supposed to distract us from Buffy's own confirmation Angelus' is actually right ("You can't kill me")? Don't you think her walking away saying "Give me time" sends Angelus a message he's free to kill until Buffy finds the strength (and courage) to finish him off? 

  Hide contents

"Give me time" turned out to be sort of death warrant for many people.

Some fans claim the whole "Buffy kicks Angelus" moment to be one of the best in an ep (or the season in general). I hardly think so,

  Hide contents

'cause it failed to achieve both things the Slayer's mission was all about - saving lives and slaying vamps.

 

Technically you're right but I think you're expecting too much of Buffy, like Xander can't just stake Jesse or the gang

Spoiler

don't try to kill DarkWillow?

Edited December 21, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

11 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I think you're expecting too much of Buffy, like Xander can't just stake Jesse

Xander isn't the Slayer. Buffy is. I expect Buffy to do her job. That's it. And yes, Jesse was a sadistic mass-murderer who killed for two centuries leaving piles of bodies in his path.

Spoiler

Willow? How could the gang possibly "kill" Dark!Willow if they didn't know what exactly would stop her?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:51 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Xander isn't the Slayer. Buffy is. I expect Buffy to do her job. That's it. And yes, Jesse was a sadistic mass-murderer who killed for two centuries leaving piles of bodies in his path.

  Hide contents

Willow? How could the gang possibly "kill" Dark!Willow if they didn't know what exactly would stop her?

Still doesn't make it easy for her and a vamps a vamp, who knows what Jesse would have gone on to do?

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

who knows what Jesse would have gone on to do

We will never know because Xander had the stake pointed at Jesse's chest, i.e. was determined not to let Vamp!Jesse doing any more harm even though Jesse was one of his two best friends. Besides Jesse was a vamp for only a few hours (we don't know whether he killed someone between the incident at the tunnels and the events at The Bronze or not) while Angelus had a history of mass-murder and killed at least two people before confronting Buffy at the mall.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:58 PM, lembergwatcher said:

We will never know because Xander had the stake pointed at Jesse's chest, i.e. was determined not to let Vamp!Jesse doing any more harm even though Jesse was one of his two best friends. Besides Jesse was a vamp for only a few hours (we don't know whether he killed someone between the incident at the tunnels and the events at The Bronze or not) while Angelus had a history of mass-murder and killed at least two people before confronting Buffy at the mall.

Same principle applies, Buffy could have finished Angel off just as easily. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy could have finished Angel off just as easily.

But she decided against it. For some trivial reasons.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:34 PM, lembergwatcher said:

But she decided against it. For some trivial reasons.

Love is never trivial

[Halting Hex]

So, wait a second.  Does the fact that Xander's Janus-spell-induced "military knowledge" is what ultimately defeats the Judge mean that Ethan Rayne saved the world, however inadvertently?

See, Ripper, this is why you shouldn't mistreat* your old Bottom Boi; he's sometimes surprisingly useful.

*-emotionally, I mean; the physical aspect ("Oooh, Ripper, you're hurting me") Ethan seems reasonably okay with.  Kinky-dinky…

[lembergwatcher]

Bad things may have good consequences. Sometimes.

[Halting Hex]

Jenny Trout's Xander-hate gets annoying this episode;  she claims that the "say 'hi' for me" that X asks Willow to relay over the phone is "evidence" that he's slavering over Angel's potential death (Willow was just then having to reassure Buffy that Angel's absence didn't mean he'd been killed; unfortunately, she was right) and "Nice Guy" that he (supposedly) is, anticipating that this brings him one step closer to Buffy-muffy.  Umm…yeah.  

Or, back on the Earth planet, it's a pro forma politeness that he offers while being bored and distracted by the book he's currently researching in (which he finds so useless that he soon heads to the stacks to get a replacement, meeting a nose-wrinkling Cordelia there).  When Willow quirks an eyebrow at him after she ends the call with Buffy, she sure doesn't seem offended; it's more about her finding his contribution exceedingly prosaic, AFAICT.  Gee, sorry if Angel's theoretical imperilment doesn't make Xander hyperventilate, Will.  There is the trivial matter of the unstoppable planet-killing demon currently on the loose, if you've forgotten.

Then, when the Hallway Standoff ends with Angel kissing Buffy and tossing her into the wall, JT takes issue with Xander asking Buffy if she's okay. (Seriously??) "NO OBVIOUSLY NOT XANDER GOD"  (Yes, she really does use the all-caps. Sigh.)  I mean, aside from showing that Xander has manners, his inquiry serves two purposes:

1)  Angel just threw Buffy into a wall; inquiring after her physical health is not exactly unmerited.  Also,

2)  Buffy was clearly not okay, as noted, since she just stood there like a statue and let Angel kiss her, I'll agree.  But that just means that there's a benefit to trying to snap her out of her daze; a polite "are you okay?" is hardly the hanging offense it's being characterized as, IMO.

Still, I wouldn't reference someone's review just to complain about it;  Jenny does manage to hit a good point, appropriately enough about her namesake:

Quote

Quote

JENNY: But you didn’t know he’d turned bad?

WILLOW: How did you?

And the point goes to Willow. Jenny says she knew because she’d seen his face. So… you just roam the halls of Sunnydale High armed with a cross?

Well, that’s not a bad idea, actually.

Nicely spotted; I'd bought that Ms. Calendar had thought quickly enough to allay Willow's suspicions, but the "what are you doing with that big old cross, teacher-lady?" point had escaped me.

However, Ms. Trout is confused on another point; she doesn't understand how the rocket-launcher gets around the "no weapon forged" description of the Judge.  We understand Buffy doesn't kill him, she simply re-disassembles him (which is why she tells the group to keep the pieces apart), but the confusion occurs because Giles's recounting of the Judge's history was in Surprise, not this episode.

So perhaps the cut line referenced above 

Quote

JUDGE: I fought an army.  They hacked me to pieces.  For six hundred years, I lay in the ground, my living head in a box.  I've learned to be patient.

should have been included, after all.  Not merely for its entertainment value, but to clearly restate Buffy's Problem for the new episode.  Hmm.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

50 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Jenny Trout's Xander-hate gets annoying this episode

Poor boy. Seems like whatever he does is constantly used against him.

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

JT takes issue with Xander asking Buffy if she's okay.

I hope Ms. Trout doesn't take issues with Xander saving Willow or coming up with the plan how to stop the Judge in the exact same episode?

Spoiler

I can only imagine her review of Becoming, Part 2.

[Halting Hex]

So I dug up this for posting elsewhere:

…and for the first time ever, I noticed that Angel has omitted the necessary comma in front of "too".  (Also, I'm not exactly sanguine [pardon the pun] about "capitalizing" the first letter of each word by making it larger if you're already doing all-caps, but that's a stylistic choice.  The grammar error is an error, pure and simple.)

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Edited June 30, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Spoiler

Apparently Angel spent most of his younger days in local pubs hitting on some indecent lasses (as it turned out). No time for proper grammar studies, you know...

And what if 18th century English grammar was slightly different? Besides, Angel was an Irishman and AFAIK back in 1750s English wasn't native language for vast majority of that country's population.

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Besides, Angel was an Irishman and AFAIK back in 1750s English wasn't native language for vast majority of that country's population.

Then I suppose I should blame the Master, but the script for Welcome to the Hellmouth tells us that his name is Heinrich Josef Nest and he's Bavarian.  So no help there.

Of course, Angel's specific sire was Darla, and her "family" has been in America since the War of Independence…but Giles would probably say that we don't speak proper English, either.  However, as I noted in the School Hard thread, Giles has botched pronoun-gerund agreement at least twice that I'm aware of, so "England" better not be getting too hoity-toity, I'd say.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

BUFFY:  Leave Willow alone and deal with me.

ANGEL:  But she's so cute…and helpless.  Really a turn-on.

Buffy can totally see Xander coming up behind Angel (with Jenny's Big Ol' Cross) during this.  She does a really good job of keeping Angel's attention solely on her and letting X (not exactly known for his stealthiness skills) get within "rescue Willow" range.

It's actually an effective police technique (I've seen it on Law & Order often enough).  I guess the Career Fair did have her pegged, after all. Polyester, donuts, and brutality aside.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

There was a time Buffy (and Buffy) didn't suck. Ah, the good old days...

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, Buffy ends up in SFPD at the end of 12th (final) "season" of the "comic continuation".

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 6/30/2019 at 1:28 AM, Halting Hex said:

So I dug up this for posting elsewhere:

…and for the first time ever, I noticed that Angel has omitted the necessary comma in front of "too".  (Also, I'm not exactly sanguine [pardon the pun] about "capitalizing" the first letter of each word by making it larger if you're already doing all-caps, but that's a stylistic choice.  The grammar error is an error, pure and simple.)

Oy, Angel! Were you raised in a barn or something?

Trust me, never watch 'Blakes 7'

[watcher1006]

On 9/18/2020 at 1:31 PM, Halting Hex said:

Buffy can totally see Xander coming up behind Angel (with Jenny's Big Ol' Cross) during this.  She does a really good job of keeping Angel's attention solely on her and letting X (not exactly known for his stealthiness skills) get within "rescue Willow" range.

It's actually an effective police technique (I've seen it on Law & Order often enough).  I guess the Career Fair did have her pegged, after all. Polyester, donuts, and brutality aside.

Yes, contrast that with

 

Dawn atop Glory's portal tower in S5 "The Gift" when Spike shows up behind Doc. Right away she calls out "Spike!" and everyone can groan as she gives away his tactical advantage.

Edited September 21, 2020 by watcher1006
Typo

[Halting Hex]

And you can also contrast [spoilered thing] with

Spoiler

Buffy making sure Angel's eyes are only for her when she's watching Spike get out his wheelchair, andiron at the ready, in Becoming Part 2.

 She's not just a pretty face, she's a pretty good poker face, our Buffster is.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

XANDER:  It was just kissing; it doesn't mean that much.

While X's attempt to downplay his and Cordelia's smoochies may wound Willow's heart, the episode bears him out.  Only a few moments later, we see Buffy greet Angel at his apartment with a fervent kiss, but the feelings are definitely not returned there.  And we also see Oz refuse to kiss Willow because, with her emotions focused on Xander, it would be "kinda on the empty side".   Sometimes kissing really doesn't mean that much, it appears.

Which is hard news for those who were hoping the Angel/Spike kiss just before this would lead to something bigger…but so it goes.

************************************

Georgia Corsby (a video reactor) and her friend, Aaron, were a bit surprised by Oz pulling van duty, since one could get into serious trouble for "stealing weapons from the army", after all.  And it's not as if Oz really hangs with this crowd;  he literally only found out about the whole "vampires are real" thing two nights before.  (Monday-Buffy had a prophetic dream; Tuesday-Buffy has a party, gets wet, surrenders her flower; Wednesday-Angel leaves Buffy a sobbing wreck;  Thursday-Buffy blows up the vampires' plans at the mall.)  Aaron makes the point that Cordelia has assimilated into the group, but Georgia counters that Out of Mind, Out of Sight showed how unhappy she was with her "popular" crowd, whereas Oz has his band and an entirely different life.  (And again…two days.  He hasn't even been to a Scooby meeting, yet.)  

But he has apparently been obsessing about Willow for months (going back to Inca Mummy Girl), so…never underestimate the power of a cute redhead, it seems.

(Or…he's just really stoned.  One or the other, I suppose.)

There was also discussion of whether Drusilla should be able to recognize the rocket launcher and scramble out of the way, rather than just stand transfixed, as the Judge does, but I think we're on good ground there.   Aside from the general "if they're pointing it at you, it's probably not good news" concept, we know that Spike and Drusilla watch television together, as mentioned at the end of School Hard and as evident from the bank of TVs Spike subsequently installs at the Factory.  Hardly surprising that "William the Bloody" might have taken in a few dozen or so war movies, with his girlfriend at his side.

I mean, they can't just sit around and watch The Price is Right;  Spike's bound to get bored with Dru always knowing the exact price, I'd think.  Bring on the battle scenes!

Edited January 11, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Quote

OZ (on why he won't kiss Willow):  Well, to the casual observer, it might seem as though you're trying to make your friend Xander jealous, or…even the score?

Hey, wait…how does Oz know about all this?  I wouldn't have been certain he knew about Willow's interest in Xander, much less the whole "X//C secretly dating" bit.  Must have been some hard stares going around that van on the drive over, I suppose.

My head canon is that Cordelia attempted an apology, taking the responsibility for having kept her…whatever with Xander a secret on herself, and telling Willow not to blame him.  But if that happened, clearly Willow was in no mood to hear it.  

Spoiler

As seen by her referring to CC as "a skanky ho" at the start of Phases, and then whole catty exchange of insults she and Cordy have in the cut scene at the gym, before they bond by beating up Xander during the self-defense exercise.

 

[lembergwatcher]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:44 PM, Halting Hex said:

Hey, wait…how does Oz know about all this?

Isn't

Spoiler

the Dogboy "practically a genius" as Willow so elegantly put it in Anne?

Besides, he might have heard something while Willow babbled on their way to Buffy's birthday party (about W/X, not X/C). Then, as you said, Oz could have caught some vibes between the three Scoobs as he drove his van to their destination... Let us say, Oz is a very sensitive guy with some deductive skills or whatever and a poetic soul.

Edited March 2, 2021 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

So, while I'd seen Georgia and Aaron's reaction vid to this in January (see comment above), I looked at it again, now that I've gone through (almost) their entire catalogue (they've just done 2.17), and there's this bit in the tag:

Quote

JOYCE:  So, are you excited to go to the mall on Saturday?

AARON:  Christ, not the mall again.

I'd never thought of this before, but yeah, the mall where they have the final showdown with the Judge here must be the same mall as Bad Eggs, as the "mom-sponsored shopping expedition" Joyce has been dangling in front of Buffy's eyes.  I mean, a "one-Starbucks town" is unlikely to have more than one mall, right?  If nothing else, there'd be at least one Starbucks per mall, presumably.

(They did use two different locations in filming the episodes.  The mall in Bad Eggs was the famous Galleria in Sherman Oaks [as featured in the movie Valley Girl], whereas this one was a shuttered department store in downtown LA.  But that's outside the story.  For those in Sunnydale, it's the same mall.)

So Buffy got to spend her Saturday not looking for dresses than make her look like "a thin streetwalker", but surreptitiously scanning the floor to see if any random Judge-parts got left behind.  No wonder she seems less-than-enthused when Joyce raises the subject.

Basically, Angel took her innocence, broke her heart, betrayed her, terrorized Willow, ruined Buffy's birthday AND spoiled her and Joyce's shopping time.  Bastard.  Grrr…

Edited March 5, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

So, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of reactors are just confused as anything as to what's happening at the start of the teaser.  (They don't necessarily mind, because suspense, but they're all like "wtf was that ending [to Surprise]?") And I can't help but think that this means that Marti Noxon botched the structure of 2.13:  either she should have ended with Angel and Buffy happily in bed (but some ominous minor-key music on the soundtrack), or we should have gotten the entire teaser from this to wrap things up, with "I feel just fine" ending the episode as "to be continued" flashed over Angel's vampiric face.  But the cheap shock of "Angel wakes up, runs outside, and moans Buffy's name while in the rain" just leaves everyone confused without advancing the plot, IMO.

(Some, such as David Hines, have mocked Angel's ability to get dressed while in distress, but as I've never had my soul sucked out, I can't authoritatively state what the timeline should be here.  The idea that Angel couldn't fight off the pain for long enough to put on pants seems speculative at best, I'd say.)

****************************************

I've seen reviews that mention the red sheets visible on Angel's bed during the "was I not good?" scene, but I've only just gotten the symbolism that set decorator David Koneff is employing.  Buffy went to her virginal bed which had white sheets (as seen by the shot her in that bed during the teaser), but now that she's surrendered the flower, the sheets are red.  Oh, my.

"Oh, that's what that song is about!" —Willow, Lie to Me.  Indeed.

*************************************

Of course, Angel not only changed the sheets and made the bed while Buffy was out of the apartment, he also changes clothes on his visit.  As much as I approve of the black button-up shirt Angel wears for the first half of the ep (is this the first button-up he's worn since the premiere?  I was sick of those stupid v-necks and wife-beaters under his jacket…who does that?), that chocolate-brown silk shirt he puts on during the scene with Buffy is even nicer, IMO.

Apparently, Angel likes it, too, since he's still wearing it during the final fight with Buffy at the mall…which is the next day.  (Angel breaks Buffy's heart and tries to kill Willow on Wednesday, Buffy cries herself to sleep, then the mall battle is Thursday night.) Ewww, Angel!  You couldn't have packed a spare?  Or heck, send a minion around to pick up a few changes of clothing for however long you're planning on staying at the factory with Spike and Dru.  (We know from Lie to Me that there's one minion ["Lucius"] who knows how to drive a car, at least.)

I mean, yes, vampires probably don't sweat so much and the shirt ended up getting washed pretty thoroughly by the sprinklers during the fight with Buffy, anyhow.   But still. Classy vampires change their clothes; I'm just saying.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Halting Hex