shang yiet

They deserve each other then, both accomplished liars, sneaks and keepers of secrets. That's their bond.

If that is exactly what Sam needs, so be it. But I need him to say it and if he wants more than Dean just staying out of the way and keeping his mouth shut, he's entitled to express that need too. Jack may be a danger to the world, he's not just Sam's personal weekend hobby or project like he's got nothing better to do with his time. So you can't just shove the potential world-ending burden on Sam.

Well then, Dean is just as bad as Sam. Agreed?

If Sam is to give Dean what he needs, then just maybe Dean can give what Sam needs. Or at least meet him halfway.

At least Sam killed Emma right in front of Dean. He didn't agree to give Emma a chance, sneak around behind Dean's back and killed Emma , kept it a secret and when confronted, admitted he did it because poor weak Dean was confused by his personal feelings.

I agree. What about what Sam needs to get through his grief? The sooner and faster Jack can use his powers to help Mary and Cas, the better it will help Sam tackle his feelings and Dean's co-operation is a factor. Yes, fine, Dean needs Sam to back off. No problem, he is entitled to his feelings about Jack. Perfectly normal reaction and all that. I don't think anybody here is saying otherwise. I don't need Dean and Jack to interact. But what about Sam's needs? Maybe he wants he and Dean to be on the same page with Jack. Maybe he needs to feel he is not doing it all alone. Maybe he needs the reassurance Dean feels the same way and that he (Sam) is doing the right thing. We can't have Sam with the sole responsibility of babysitting Jack while Dean goes off on cases, saying "Jack's your problem. I don't want to hear about him. Bye!" Otherwise, I'm fine with Dean leaving Jack alone and totally fine with Sam backing off.

I agree. They are both projecting their grief and loss on Jack. I would certainly like Sam to be more wary of Jack but Dean warning Jack he might kill him is pretty tactless and counter-productive. Just how was Dean going to do it? Jack could kill Dean in a blink of an eye. What good is that honesty when it unsettles Jack and makes him wary of both Dean and Sam? And so what if Sam is using Jack to save Mary and Cas? What's wrong with that? He can still have a genuine bond with Jack too in the process. So Dean can lay it on the line if he wants to but Sam has the right to do the same. I didn't like that only Dean is allowed to yell. Given Sam's history with the demon blood and special link to Lucifer, Sam has a big stake in the Jack situation as well and feels he has a lot to prove.

Both of them were on edge so Dean should try the eggshell approach himself and not crack that sarcastic car joke. Just saying. They both were struggling with their feelings and coping their own way. No I dont like that car remark but I never said Dean was being a jerk. Just that the writers should remember it is Sam's home and Sam has driven the car many times.

I thought Bobby wanted to write off the car as a wreck but Sam wanted him to save it. I think they both have this habit only Sam tends not to punch things. I do want him too. It would be the first time.

Jack has four dads - the Winchesters, Cas and Lucifer. Whose approval he will want the most, we shall see. But I'm sure Dean's opinion is important to him. Dean's opinion has been important in many plotlines. I wish the writers would leave Dean's wires (crossed or not) alone and focus more on Sam's wires. Maybe Sam can lend Dean some of his tranquilizers and maybe Dean can show Sam how to punch a wall. But seriously, I don't think the 'crossed wires' comment is insulting in any way. Getting wires crossed is pretty much the human way of coping with things. We feel fear and grief but it comes out as something else. Sam feels the same fear and grief but he is pushing it down and pinning his hopes on Jack being good. That's another example of crossed wires. I actually thought it was quite a gentle and thoughtful way to explain human emotions to Jack. In fact, I wish Jack had questioned not Dean's feelings but Sam's feelings. Like, why do you (Sam) trust me so much when you should want to end me? Why are you giving me the benefit of the doubt? I didn't like the 'Do I ever want you to drive' comment by Dean. Sure, I can accept it as sibling banter but still the car is Sam's home too. Sam begged Bobby to rebuild it after the car crash in Devil's Trap. Dean gave the car to Sam before he went to hell. It has been Sam's car too.

KatyM, my point was that Sam and Dean are both well-liked by their allies on the show and well-hated by the bad guys. It's not a case of people falling for Sam and hating Dean, or vice versa.

Villains are supposed to hate Dean and Sam. I think most of the allies on the show like both Winchesters and so they should.

I think we can all agree that if Jack goes evil, that will be his fault (and Lucifer). He does have free will, after all. Maybe Dean will be blamed for being 'mean' but I think it is far more likely that Sam will be blamed for being too naive and trusting and dumb for falling for Jack's tricks. And then the audience will blame arrogant Sam for not listening to Dean.

Catrox - Why shouldn't Sam still have issues with John? Is Dean done with his issues? No. And I did want Sam to be harsher with Mary. I wanted him to be allowed to get angry with her and let loose just like Dean was allowed to. Dean was able to speak for himself so no fear he won't be able to do so again should they ever bring John back.

I want Sam to speak for Sam. Dean can speak for himself. He did just fine with Mary and with John. If anything, Dean was harsher with her than Sam was allowed to be.

How could Sam tell Dean this when his soul was still trapped with Lucifer? Two people didn't tell Dean (Cas and Bobby) but the real Sam who was still trapped below gets the blame? I'm confused.

So Soulless Sam is responsible for his actions but not coin-influenced Dean? Doesn't seem fair to me. The real Sam (soul and spirit) was suffering down in hell while his body walked the earth. Hardly seems like anything to joke about. Anyway, Dean's greatest hits is just as long as Sam's greatest hits so hey, it's half a dozen on one hand and six on the other, as the saying goes.

He did have a psychotic break. You don't think so? My problem was that Carver was so wishy washy. No follow-through. If he wants to take the 'mature' angle, then don't have Dean and Bobby harping on not looking. Don't bring up Benny as the better brother. If Sam and Dean made a pact, then let's have Dean and Bobby fine with it. If Sam had a mental breakdown and thus not up to making rational decisions, then don't have Dean and Bobby questioning his actions. Don't bring up Kevin and make Sam at fault for him.

Sure, both Sam and Dean have those complicated messy emotions about their life, college, hunting,family,etc. Sam can miss Dean but would still want very much to 'escape' his family situation to go to college to decide his own future. I agree. Sure. Just like Sam has issues with control and might have problems with people being bossy. He would react a certain way. That doesn't mean it's Dean's fault if he does but it's a real issue too and doesn't make Sam a horrible immature person. Only human. Which leads to the next point Same goes for Sam and his words. And his feelings. For what it's worth, I did think Bobby's speech to Dean was somewhat harsh (not about the college part) but the other parts. He could have said things differently but I believe Bobby had the best intentions. And he's not a robot as well.

Dont understand the story. So the couple committed suicide? Why? And the show is getting boring with everyone having some crisis and all the monologuing. Stories repetitive.

Not probably dead. Dead as in dead as a dodo. And therefore, I had no choice but to try to move on as best as I could for my own emotional stability. (which is not the same as getting over it). Nope, Mary won't blame Dean. She'll understand.

I'm sure Mary won't blame Dean for giving up. I'm sure she understands he was immobilised with grief. Perhaps we'll find she and Dean made a pact not to look for each other. That will absolve Dean for sure.

I'm not denying Dean's grief. catrox. I was just wondering why Sam is not feeling hopeless too. Again I admit I have not seen the episode but I assume Sam is feeling more zen and positive about things as per usual. I don't know why. He should be feeling the same as Dean. That's my point.

This is what has always annoyed me. The writers pay so much attention to Dean's feelings and forget Sam is going through the same things too. I have no problem with Dean getting more badass moments but at least balance out the emo and give some to Sam. I would be quite surprised that Dean being wrong will prove to be a big thing. I doubt the writers will harp on it like they did Sam's mistakes. But yes, I agree, what's wrong with Sam and Dean taking turns being wrong? This is what I always thought happened to Sam after Dean went to purgatory. He was in no shape to start chasing clues. But I admit I have not seen this episode yet so I could be wrong but how come Sam is not suffering the same sudden loss and grief?

Damn, same old dynamics. Only Dean is allowed to have feelings and grieve. Just like after John and Bobby died. Meanwhile Sam is all zen. So boring. Switch it up, writers!