Dani-Ellie

I don't think it's entirely fair to call the cliffhanger pulled out of a hat. Emma's whole story arc in 4B was that Rumple was trying to turn her towards darkness. In the end and in a very roundabout way, he accomplished his purpose. The show absolutely pulled an Insidious on us, where the characters and the audience think the danger is one thing when it's actually something else, but it's not like they didn't lay any groundwork for it, considering that the bit with the darkness killing Gold was introduced in "Heart of Gold."

Ooh, yay! Good luck!!

I get that and believe me, I'm frustrated with the missed potential, too. And perhaps this belongs in the fandom thread, but I do find it very difficult to have a discussion when every discussion inevitably comes down to "well, the writers suck, so..." Because no, they don't. They've created characters that have touched every single one of us to the point that we're giving up our free time to discuss it on the internet. They've created a fantasy fairy tale show that's made it to at least season five on a broadcast network. That is insanely hard to do. Plus, these guys are first-time showrunners, and yes, it absolutely shows, but at the same time, there are bound to be some growing pains because of that. I just feel like we don't always give the writing team enough credit for what they have done. And I also feel like since we've been watching this show for four full seasons now, we know the show is going to zoom the plot along at the speed of light and we know they're not going to hit the deep emotion we seem to want. I've adjusted my expectations to match what we are getting rather than what we could be getting. I still enjoy the hell out of this show, and I just really wish there was more positive discussion because I don't want to constantly shit on it and it's very difficult to feel like you're enjoying something in a vacuum.

From Shanna Marie in the Emma thread: Maybe it's just me but I really wish we could kinda back off the notion that more and more things in the writing are simply happy accidents. Regardless of whether it's how we would write the story, these guys are professional television writers who have a show on a national broadcast network. They have to be doing something right because ahead of this show's premiere, some of the ratings websites were taking over/unders on how quickly this thing was going to get canceled and here we are, going into season five. These guys are the ones who put thought into the color of the car Emma drives into town. They made it bright yellow to signify that she's bringing color and light to Storybrooke. That doesn't strike me as a detail they'd put in if they didn't want Emma to be something more than someone who just runs around saving everyone. That strikes me as a detail they put in because they wanted her to represent the light, the hope, coming back into these people's lives. I don't see why in the example of Emma's role as savior being a catalyst that it can't be simply that the characters have yet to realize they don't need Emma to do every little thing, which is why they always call for her, instead of it being a writing mistake. For me, it's getting increasingly difficult to discuss things here because it feels like every discussion ends up coming down to the various ways the writers suck or how the writers are going to screw up a plot we know nothing about yet.

Responding in the writers thread.

I like adorable Emma. :)

And that pledge was to get Regina to her happy ending, which I still maintain she can't attain if she's dead. I guess I just don't understand why the idea that Emma saved Regina has to come at the expense of the idea that Emma saved everyone. Regina is included in everyone, so the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Of course she saved Regina's happiness, because she saved Regina's life. That's also another thing that doesn't have to be an either/or. Regina can't have a happy ending if she's had all the light snuffed out of her by the darkness or if she's dead before she's fully attained whatever her happy ending is. Emma also saved everyone else's happiness because she saved everyone else's lives. Right now, the people who love Emma are miserable, but is there any doubt that they're going to save her? So their happy endings, along with Emma's, are still attainable, too. If the darkness consumed everyone and everything, no one would have a happily ever after. If this was the series finale, I would be a lot more angry about this whole thing, but it's not. It's a season finale, so this isn't the end of the story. The writers may have a Regina bias but I don't think it's as all-encompassing as it's frequently made out to be. Just like there are shipper goggles, I do think there are anti-shipper or anti-character goggles and sometimes what we see and hear gets filtered through those goggles, too. The fact of the matter is they wrote this big massive heroic moment for the savior, and we're sitting here debating whether or not it was all because of one person. I personally don't believe it was. The actress who plays the character has gone on record multiple times to say she doesn't believe it was, that her headspace when playing the scene was that Emma was saving everyone. One of those times was during a panel where the writers heard her and didn't jump in to correct her or clarify. Regardless of what Eddy said in one interview, the story as played out onscreen did not indicate that it was. Basically, I think we're all making a mountain out of a molehill, here, on all sides. Emma's sacrifice wasn't just for Regina, but the fact that Regina was included or even highlighted isn't a huge deal to me, either.

This. It doesn't have to be an either/or. And really, in that moment, what were Emma's options? Let it consume Regina and then move on to the next person? In the eighth episode of this show, Emma pulled Regina from a burning building, and this was back when they were mortal enemies. Now that they're friends (and regardless of whether I like it, agree with it, or believe it, that's also the truth of the story), there is no way I'd believe Emma not saving her. But it is also true that Emma would have done it no matter who was in the middle of that vortex. Hell, Emma would have done the same for a stranger, because that's who she is. That's part of what makes her the savior. Which then leads into Emma sacrificing herself for everyone. We were both told and shown that the darkness was not going to stop. It consumed the Apprentice and then moved on to Regina. After Regina, it would have latched onto someone else and then someone else and then someone else. Emma taking it on herself prevented the darkness from spreading throughout the town like a contagion. Like Jen said, Emma had like, a second to make her decision, and she chose to save everyone, Regina included, because that's who she is.

Those two are the like, prince and princess of Cutie Kingdom.

I have no experience with NerdHQ aside from this, so forgive me if this comes across as, "Well, duh, Danielle," but what I liked about that panel was that it was basically a no-holds-barred free-for-all. No one was there specifically to do PR for their respective shows, so it was just this big conversation. I felt like everyone could let their hair down a little bit and just go for it, you know? And it was nice to see them get into some of the deeper aspects of the entertainment industry, like how they don't always realize that what they do touches people's lives or what made them think about taking this career track in the first place.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I don't like to read AUs as a general rule. I prefer the stuff I read to be based in canon because I want to read the further adventures of the characters I see on my TV screen every Sunday. If I wanted to read about the adventures of two kids in high school, for example, I'd go get a YA novel. But that's just a personal quirk of mine, so the stories I clicked into that had the characters wildly OOC just rubbed me the wrong way. This is ultimately my issue, too. People are absolutely free to write their fic and make their art and squee all they want. But when their squee is so zealous that it becomes abusive to real people, that's where I have the issue. When neither Emma nor Regina were canonically attached, it was a little different because there was that little glimmer of hope. But now both of them are in canon relationships with other characters, and I'm sorry, but Captain Swan and Outlaw Queen are not going to go away. It may be disappointing to some but that's life. The overzealous fans need to find a way to deal with that that doesn't involve being harassing asshats.

This. I admit I was disappointed when Emma didn't say it in the loft but I ultimately liked the way it played out as aired, especially in light of Jen's comments. Because look, here's Emma, chickening out again. Afraid to say it because saying it might make it go away, like breaking a spell. So she hesitates, ultimately holds back, and really, they're both disappointed in that moment. And then later in the street, she knows. She knows saying it this time is going to make it disappear because of what she has to do but she gets over that fear and says it anyway. And in the end, it gives both of them hope. She gives Hook a reason fight for her (not that he wouldn't have anyway, but still), which in turn gives her hope because she knows that he will.

I don't know how prevalent it is now but there also used to be a LOT of breaking up the Charming Family so Emma is "free" to go to Regina. Snow and Charming don't approve of the relationship between them (for a variety of reasons) and Emma pretty much walks out the door and goes to her little family of Regina and Henry. And really, if that floats your boat, fine, but it's something I could never stomach because no. Just no. After everything Emma has been through trying to find her family, I do not buy her just walking away from them. I do not buy Snow and Charming being so insensitive to Emma that they force her out the door like that. Hell, I don't even buy Regina allowing it! Especially Fanon Regina, who's so super understanding. Why would Fanon Regina want her girlfriend to leave her family, the family she's spent her entire life searching for? At that point, you might as well just write original fiction, because the characters bare so little resemblance to the characters on the show that I honestly just do not get it. And look, I get subtext ships. But I just don't understand this insistence that subtext somehow takes precendence over text, to the point of berating the actors, the writers, and their fellow fans, and I don't think I ever will.

Dude, if you're worried that people are going to try to get you barred from the press room because you've posted nasty shit about one of the actors in the press room to the point that you tell no one you're going, the problem is not with the other people or the press room.

When I first saw the episode, I read the scene like Jen did (to the point that I had no idea people would read it differently until I came here and Tumblr) so I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that the intention was for Emma to be saving everyone. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have had that explanation of how Merlin stopped the darkness from consuming the realms by tying it to one person and they wouldn't have had Emma calling back to it during the scene in the street. I do think it was a way of putting the cap on the Regina and Emma bit set out in the first episode but I have no idea why everyone's so focused on Regina. Just because she was the one in immediate danger? They all were in immediate danger because the second the darkness destroyed Regina, it was just going to go on to the next person. And yes, Emma did tell Regina she'd come too far to have her happy ending destroyed now, bringing that storyline through to completion, but you know what? That scene brought two other storylines to completion, too. Emma turns to her parents and tells them to get the darkness out of her as heroes this time, thereby fully accepting what they did for her as a baby. She turns to Hook and tells him she loves him, bringing their little "be patient" bit from the season premiere full circle.

The Comic Con promos have never been canon. They're hat-tips more along the lines of "Hey, look what's coming!" and only the broadest strokes have ever made it onscreen. It's a promo, not a sneak peek. It's also very clearly meant to echo this deleted scene from the pilot.

When my supervisor asked me why I wasn't at Comic-Con, I told her it was too big. Pics like that illustrate why. My heart is fluttering just *looking* at that. I would be having a panic attack on that floor in about five seconds flat. ( ... I don't like small spaces. Or crowds. Basically anywhere I could possibly feel trapped. Holy yikes that it is *way* too many people in one space for me.)

Him and Emma on mine!

I cannot tell you how giddy it makes me that Hook has a quirked eyebrow. <3

"Savior" doesn't have to mean "the one who does." Emma sets things in motion. The fact that the citizens of Storybrooke can find some other way than Emma doing it for them is empowering in and of itself. And they can do that because Emma first weakened the Dark Curse and then broke it. Without Emma, they'd all still be stuck in their Groundhog Day existence. As the Savior, she provides them the means to better their lives. It doesn't necessarily mean that she has to constantly be the one in the line of fire. It doesn't mean that she personally has to go to every house in Storybrooke and hand a happy ending to the occupant. I actually like the fact that show has taken the tack that happy endings can't just be handed to people and they have to be fought for. Emma constantly running around and being a one-woman happy-ending machine undermines that notion. Emma's role in the story for me is basically a catalyst. Sometimes she needs to act, sometime she needs to inspire the action. Sometimes she needs to take charge and lead, sometimes she needs to let someone else take charge. Sometimes she needs to finish the fight, sometimes she just needs to start it. She doesn't have to be the one "winning" every time. It's a fluid thing that to me is so much bigger than that.

This. And in re: this discussion, I've always interpreted "Savior" as something bigger than "Breaker of the Dark Curse." Because even before the Curse was broken, we saw her returning happy endings. She got Ashley/Cinderella out of her deal with Gold, allowing her to keep her baby. She reunited Ava/Gretel and Nicholas/Hansel with their father. She fought against Regina's attempts to set Mary Margaret up for murder. Emma is the catalyst for change, which is not always an active role. Sometimes she's the one exacting the change (as with the above examples), sometimes she's the inspiration for the change (as with Hook's redemption arc and Elsa figuring out what made her control her powers). It's been said before in the behind-the-scenes specials that the color of Emma's Bug is not an accident. It's bright yellow, meant to signify the fact that she's bringing color to the dull world of Storybrooke. She is the color, the light, in these people's lives. And with this latest sacrifice of hers, she ensured that the light she's already brought wasn't snuffed out by the darkness.

This. Plus, after four full seasons of Emma being expected to be the savior for everyone, I'm more than ready for everyone to return the favor. Operation Save the Savior is a go, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, Elsa and Anna were both openly crying.

I sensed fondness and pride in Henry's smile when he said that, which indicated to me that he liked, got along well with, and was proud to learn from the Hook he knew. YMMV.