Dani-Ellie

Elsa also found Anna's snowflake necklace in Gold's shop. The last Elsa knew, that necklace was in Anna's possession. We know now that Rumple pulled it out of the fire after Anna threw it in and that's how he came to be in possession of it, but Elsa does not, so she's working off the assumption that Anna's necklace being in Storybrooke means Anna is somewhere in Storybrooke because the necklace came with Anna.

It's funny; I'm 33, and sometimes I totally feel like a grandma, depending on where I am. Like, ff.net? I feel like a grandma. Tumblr sometimes, too. Then there was the group of friends I made years ago playing an LJ-based RP where I ended up being one of the babies of the group. LJ led me into discussion of SVU, where I was also one of the babies of our little group. So it kind of all depends on the group. Exactly. Twitter and Tumblr have their places, but I don't think they're going to replace discussion forums any time soon, not for people who really want to get into the kinds of in-depth discussions we do here. There is discussion going on on Tumblr, but depending on how long the thread gets, it looks like it can get unwieldy.

Really, Regina is the problem here. Rumple, I can see everyone treating him the way they do, because he held all the power before and still holds a great deal of it now. Yes, they may be too trusting based on past history but Rumple tends to play his true plans very close to the vest anyway, so that's easier to ignore. But then you have Regina. Regina, who's responsible for a great majority of these people's ills, what with her murdering and cursing, and ... it's all water under the bridge? Snow couldn't even let her husband hold his newborn baby son because she was afraid of missing things like she missed with Emma, and yet she's going to gossip over affairs and give life advice to the woman who was the reason she missed all those things with Emma? Emma is out there somewhere, fixing to remove her birthright, and Snow pauses in the search to talk to Regina? Emma witnesses Regina burn her mother at the stake and is not the tiniest bit horrified when she returns to the present? Henry suffered emotional abuse at the hands of his mother, ate a poisoned turnover meant for his other mother, and was just recently shut out of his mother's life because of a romantic breakup, but everything's a-okay now? Regina imprisoned Robin's wife and sentenced her to death, and he's okay with it to the point that he loves Regina and is willing to let said wife and mother of his child die again? This is not okay. It's not normal. And it's painfully obvious that the writing just does not want to deal with any kind of realistic consequences to Regina's actions. The problem is, the consequences are where the real drama is.

Snowflake in Snow's and Charming's room won't be a problem for a little while (and at the rate this show goes, he'll probably be an infant until season 7 ;)). Emma and Elsa (or Henry) could be sharing the bed in the loft, and the odd person out could be on the couch. Or maybe there's a rollaway bed that they set up in front of Emma's during the night?

I honestly do not want the Frozen gang to go back to Arendelle. I want to keep them in Storybrooke forever and ever.

I think it was a little bit of both. I do think Regina has come to have a bit of begrudging respect for Emma ("Emma and Henry and the two idiots" comes to mind ... she at least respected Emma enough that she didn't lump her in with the "idiots"). Yes, Emma's magic is useful but it's also part of who she is. It's part of what makes her Emma. And not only were Snow and Charming just going to allow her to remove a part of herself, Charming snarked at Hook when he asked if Emma even mentioned the method that the method didn't matter. Spells can go wrong, magical objects can backfire. Wouldn't they be concerned that Emma herself could get hurt in the magical removal process? I can't believe I'm about to type these words but: thank you, Regina. Someone needed to kick Snow's and Charming's asses into gear. Of course she did it in the snarkiest and most hypocritical way possible because she's Regina but still.

But Regina doesn't like green eggs and ham! ;)

Oh, I completely get that. I just think accidentally killing your sister is a more comprehensible reason for going off the deep end than, say, blaming a small child for someone else murdering your boyfriend. ;)

They gave up the ribbons before Ingrid killed Helga. Could the ribbons have maybe retained the magic the sisterly true love bond gave them because they weren't being worn when the shit went down?

As I was doing my rewatch yesterday, I came to the conclusion that Ingrid is, so far, the most sympathetic villain on this show for me. Usually I do not at all buy into the villain's sob stories, but I am totally buying into this one. There are a few different aspects of Ingrid's story that are doing it for me. The first is what led her here. Ingrid's accidental killing of her loving, adoring sister with magic she couldn't control is by far the best reason for slipping into magical villainy I think this show has ever done. There's an underlying sense of utter tragedy to it all, and really, if anything is a reason to go off your rocker, that's it. It's one of those things where I can't help thinking that if there was some type of Enchanted Forest mental health facility that could have helped Ingrid deal with the guilt of her loss, she might not have gone down this path. Of course, it doesn't at all excuse what she did to Elsa and Anna and what she's doing now. And that I think is the other key: I don't feel like the show is presenting her in a "feel sorry for her" light. They're not pandering to her, they're not excusing her villainy. They're presenting her as mentally unstable and they're presenting her actions as wrong. They're not pretending she's justified in her actions due to her tragedy. And it's refreshing. And what's really aggravating is now I know they can do this. See, show? Just present the story and let the audience decide whom to root for. Don't try to shove it down our throats. I may not feel like Ingrid should be redeemed and given rainbows and puppies and kittens but I do hope they don't kill her and instead they neutralize her and send her somewhere she can get the help she needs.

Anna: Though, [ingrid] does have skeletons in her closet because we did just find Hans in her closet and his body does contain a skeleton.

But she's also never almost dropped a lamp post on her father or blasted back her kid as he tried to take her hand before, either. The way she pulled herself up short as she ran to Henry to make sure he was okay and then held her hands against her chest as if she couldn't trust them broke my heart. It's like blasting Henry was her breaking point. She'd even said to Elsa later that she was pretty much expecting him to be her Anna, her port in the storm where the control would come from. When she hurt him, she lost what little semblance of control she had left. She didn't originally go to Rumple asking him to take her powers. She asked him for help controlling them. It was only after she admitted to him that she'd hurt Henry that he suggested taking them entirely ... because the Dark One knows how to recognize a desperate soul. This is why I can't with Snow and Charming just sitting there letting her go through with it. Talking about it was great, really, but maybe the discussion should have been happening while following the locator-spell-ed scarf? Because they know Emma hurt Henry and they have to know how that would affect her. They have to know that she hadn't come about this decision in a calm, considered manner. Their baby girl was out there panicking, and they were all, "Whatever she decides!" And really, that's great. Parental support of their kids' decisions is wonderful. But I think parents should also suggest consideration and sleeping on a decision, especially one that drastic, so that it's not made rashly or in the heat of the moment. When the Evil Queen is the one speaking sense in the situation, someone's blown it somewhere, heh.

I think the answer to this goes back to why I was so annoyed with Snow and Charming leaving Emma to make her decision on her own in the first place: Emma wasn't rational. She was hurting her loved ones and had no clue how to stop it herself. And the more worked up she got because she had no clue how to stop it herself, the more out of control she spiraled. It wasn't, "I've thought long and hard about this and I want to give up my magic for reasons X, Y, and Z." It was, "What the hell is happening to me?! Just make it stop!" I think she was just desperate and willing to believe anyone and do anything at that point, as long as it just made it stop.

From the 4x08 thread (quoting myself first for context): There was an episode of the old Disney Channel show So Weird that did something similar to this. The episode's theory was that there are countless alternate universes made up of all the choices we don't take. And in the episode, by some contrivance of plot that I don't remember because it's been close to a decade since I've last seen it, Bizarro Annie ended up finding her way to this universe. Can you imagine like, Bizarro Regina meeting our Regina? Would she be disgusted with herself? And then there's Bizarro Snow, who never had to live in the forest or go on the run because Regina up and left. (I am finding a way for her to have still met Bizarro Charming, because I need a Bizarro Princess Emma in this story.) If this is really what they're doing, I don't want it to be one or two characters finding their way to Bizarro Universe and vice versa. I want everyone to meet themselves. I want down to be up and up to be down and just complete and utter chaos. It could be so very much fun.

Replying in the spec without spoilers thread.

Maybe there's an alternate universe out there made up of the paths the characters didn't take? Two roads diverged in an enchanted wood ... and in our universe, Regina ran away from Robin. In the alternate universe, she stepped into the tavern. It would be the same spot in the "book," hence the same page. The page Robin somehow ended up with belongs in the Bizarro Universe's Once Upon a Time book.

I was reading that as a joke, like, "Well, obviously, one of us won't be of any help, so who the hell can we send instead?"

Guys. I really, really don't want the Frozen gang to go when this arc is over. There better be some kind of portal/door/window to Arendelle from Storybrooke when all is said and done because Elsa/Emma is my new favorite thing and they may have made me cry. And Anna is still delightful and Kristoff is still amusing as all get-out and they have to get unfrozen at some point, yes?? And do we really have to send them back to Arendelle? Can't we just keep them? Please? How much did I love Elsa overhearing Snow and Charming talking about letting Emma give up her magic, promptly deciding, "F that noise," and going out and getting shit done. Damn straight, Elsa! And Emma. Oh, I hurt for her all throughout this episode but her fireworks at the end made me grin like an idiot. (For the purposes of maintaining my squee, I am ignoring all footage/recollection of Outlaw Queen, Operation Mongoose, and Regina ... except for that part where Regina was all, "WTF is wrong with you two?!" to Snow and Charming re: Emma giving up her magic. Because that part was kind of awesome.)

Speaking of Graham! So, let me get this straight, Regina. Emma saves a woman's life (from you!) and accidentally screws up your love life. You took a man's life because he broke up with you, which totally-on-purpose screwed up Emma's (potential) love life. And somehow Emma is the one who is oh so wrong here? Give me a freakin' break. Where the hell is that adorable little kid staying while his dad hooks up with his mom's would-be murderer? Hopefully with Uncle Little John.

Completely random, but I just wanted a share a My Coworkers Are Awesome story: There is some road work being done on my route to work, so the town has set up a detour. Which is all well and good except the detour road is just barely wide enough in some places to fit two cars comfortably side by side. Last Friday on my drive in, I pulled close to the edge of the road to get out of the way of a truck ... and hit a bank of rocks or something hidden in the leaves. I was fine, the car was fine ... except for a couple of bent rims. My boss told the shop guys to get me a couple new rims and get them swapped out for me. Come to find out that salvage yards around here don't keep steel rims so unless I wanted to replace them with aluminum, I was SOL. So not only did the shop guys hammer them back into shape for me, they filled my tires, too! So yeah ... my coworkers are awesome. :)

This is my hangup. This is Emma, the child who was stolen from them. For all intents and purposes, Emma was abducted at birth and returned to them 28 years later. I can quite obviously understand how and why they would fumble and flounder in just about all their interactions with each other simply because they don't know each other. Emma has lived close to three decades without them. KAOS Agent did a remarkable job highlighting the differences in their life experiences above, so I won't repeat, but these three people have three decades' worth of catch-up to do. But they have her back now. They have her back after having her essentially forcibly ripped from them the night she was born. So my thing is ... I would think they would want to be with her. I would think they would want to spend every second with her that they could. Their baby, their little girl, is back. I don't even think the fact that they spent 28 years in magical stasis should matter all that much in this. Their last memory of their little girl is them sobbing as they give her up. Now that they have her back, regardless of what age she is, I would think they would be clinging to her, lest she slip out of their sight again. So, really, the lack of thought where Emma fits into their plans and the seeming appearance that Emma is not necessary for their happily ever after is absolutely baffling to me.

Here's my thing, though. I completely agree that Snow's reactions were overwritten and possibly overdirected/overplayed (since I don't know what the stage direction was in the script). Regardless, what plays out onscreen is what plays out onscreen, whether or not I think it makes any sense. It's the characterization we're being given, whether I like it or not. And honestly, I've felt this building since the Echo Cave, so I don't exactly think it's coming out of nowhere. I hate to rehash Neverland, but seriously, Snow was perfectly willing to let Emma go back to Storybrooke without both her parents just days after telling her it was her job to help her not feel like an orphan anymore. Hate to tell you, Snow, but your daughter can't exactly not feel like an orphan anymore when her parents are trapped in a realm she can't easily visit. More than once, Snow told Emma to go without them if they had to, which is a complete 180 from her "We go home together. That is the only way" stance from the Enchanted Forest. So, from Emma's perspective, what the hell changed between the Enchanted Forest and Neverland? And all this is coming off the heels of the Echo Cave, which was never addressed between Snow and Emma onscreen, so it's hard to tell where the characters' heads are at. Emma tries to explain how New York was home to her and Henry. Snow snaps at her, "That's because you forgot about us." As if it was something Emma chose while she was one of the ones giving Emma the courage to go in the first place. Whether I like it or not, being dismissive of Emma and shutting her down when she tries to open up has become a pattern of behavior for Snow, so the fact that it's seemingly coming to a head? Yes. Please. I'm sitting here all, "Finally." I'm hoping this is the catalyst to fixing it because I don't see how in the hell they can twist this so it's Emma's fault the way they did before. Firstly, if the roadblock was completely Emma before, that roadblock was removed through the trip to the past. By the show's own logic, it's Snow's turn to step up ... and, imo, she's completely blowing it. Secondly, they showed a mother backing away from her own daughter in fear, unable to look her in the eye, and yelling at her. As far as I'm concerned, and it seems to me this is how they're playing it, that's on Snow. This relationship was once the heart of this show for me and I really would like it to be again. I don't like being mad at Snow, I really don't. But as far as I'm concerned, she needs to put on her big girl pants and step up for her children ... both of them.

This. I will admit that I am harsher on Snow than I am on Emma, for a couple of different reasons but mostly because like it or not, Snow, you're the parent here. Snow needs to get her shit together, not just for Emma but for baby Snowflake as well. Because if she doesn't, what the hell happens six or seven years down the road when Snowflake begins to feel like he has to be everything for his parents that his sister couldn't? Snow framed her desire for a second child as a chance to do everything with that child that she missed with Emma. If she doesn't change her thinking on that, it could cause so very many problems, not just in her relationship with her grown child but also in the development of her growing child. I don't think second children should be second chances, and framing her desire for a child as a do-over is so incredibly unhealthy for everyone involved. Plus, for all Emma likes to keep things bottled up, I have seen, more than once, her trying to reach out and Snow shutting her down. I don't give a shit if it's going to be painful for Snow to talk about. It's going to be painful for Emma, too, but she's trying. And all Snow is doing by constantly shutting her down every time she tries to open up to her is telling her, "Your feelings and experiences are not welcome here." Do I believe she's meaning to do this? No, of course not. But she now has two children who need her to be a mother. They need her to be a support system. They need her to be a judgment free zone. They need her to listen. I'm sure I said things to my mother as I was growing up that hurt, but I always knew I could say them, even if it would be painful for the both of us. Right now, I don't think Emma has that (Snowflake is obviously too young to need it ;)), and it makes me both sad and angry.

Elsa destroyed the urn when she came out of it at the end of 3x22, if I remember correctly.

So. Much. This. And look, Snow didn't even say another freakin' word to her. Emma: So I guess I'll have to take a raincheck on babysitting? Snow: *crickets* Emma's question was unsure and full of pain and hurt and Snow couldn't even bring herself to respond to her. So Emma's last impression going into not only a chase after a villain but also the subsequent psychological warfare with the Snow Queen was how her own mother couldn't even look her in the eye or bring herself to say anything to her. Holy fuckin' shit, Snow, you totally failed Parenting 101 this episode.