WhiteStumbler

I thought that Mr. N liked JS working for him, as an apprentice in "Norellian" magic. This episode moved super fast. It was packed with some great moments. I'm glad Childermas didn't need to get resurected or be some sort of thrall to the Creepyfairy. What was it that he called the thing that Stephen pulled from the bog hole? I kept hearing "Mossyoak" which is a camouflage pattern for hunters, so I'm sure I have it wrong. I'm loving how they are showing people who are products of the Enlightenment struggle to even discuss the dark, chaotic world just beyond the mirror. A- episode, the best so far imo.

Wellington: "Can a magician kill a man by magic?" Mr. Strange: "I suppose a magician might... but a gentleman never would."

Yes, there was the creaking "magic is afoot!" sound, Childermass said something about "magic is being used" (as lucindabelle said), he grabbed a waterglass and a green spark appeared within it, and he used the water as some sort of divining rod / scrying glass for magic, before he settled on the unfortunate Ms. Pole in her assassin's role. Yokosmom: A disturbing Option 4 occurs to me -- Childermass is given a hint by the Faerie, with the full intention of getting Childermass killed, so that the Faerie can use Childermass in some capacity after death.

I had been thinking, as the episode started, that the Creepy Wormtongued Puck was essentially holding most of the cards in his dealings with the human world. He needs some sort of permission, invitation, or deal to "cross over" into the regular world and get what he wants, but he has a lot of glamours at his disposal (invisibility, seduction) and he knows the rules of magic while the humans usually don't seem to know what is up. With Childermass being shot, I think that JS&MN is setting him up to be resurrected by Mr. Strange (he has the power to do it as demonstrated with the Neapolitan soldiers), but since Resurrected Childermass would have been to "the other side", and since he already had some magical abilities himself (the water-glass trick), Childermass might be a very useful ally of Strange and Norrell against Creepy Wormtongued Puck. I felt really bad for the resurrected soldiers. Couldn't someone have found a priest (who happened to be fluent in Italian? Or use the translator?) to hear their confession before they were killed again? Seems sort of heartless to send them back to hell without being absolved of their sins.

dramachick: Childermas is the ___ to Mr. Norell, right? I Don't know what to call him. Assistant? Fixer? Familiar? But he is the one who said "saddlebags" when JS was proposing taking 40 books with him. Zero Paul Kaye this week, so that was disappointing. This show is doing a very nice tightrope walk balancing whimsy and creepy. The acting seems stronger than last week, maybe because I know the characters better. I'm not expecting it to be brilliant, but so far it is very good. Very good indeed. Can JS cast the See Your Enemy spell again, or is it a one time deal? Will he see the Blue Fairy again?

The music, the scenery, the sense of southern gothic dread and decay from S1 would be tough for any show to follow, but TDv2 seems determined to give it a go (L. Cohen! Nick Cave!) in toxic, sun-blasted S. California. I wasn't swept up in the narrative in the same way I felt transported by S1, but this had twice as many protagonists (at least), and was without the narrative trick of using two untrustworthy narrators to play off of each other. S1 did a brilliant job of constantly flanking my understanding of WTH was going on -- as soon as I thought I had a handle on the threads of the story, TD would expand the scope of the evil or subvert what I thought I knew. I hope S2 manages some of that same magic. The S2 debut also suffers from an acute absence of Big Hug Mugs. I wish that the police protagonists weren't all so obviously damaged -- discovering the hurt and how it is dealt with can be really rewarding, but seeing damaged people lash out because reasons is less interesting. I will certainly watch next week, and I also hope that the dialogue is less clunky.

Gingerella-- You forget the winner of the War of Five Kings, Balon "The Damp" Greyjoy. Joffrey, Robb, Stannis, and Renley are all dead. As the last King standing in the Westeros Murderdome, Balon wins! Ugh. Just thinking about Robb, I ... I gotta go. Something in my eye. I don't want you guys to see me like this.

RE: Jon Snow -- As I said after S5E02, Jon Snow's epitaph should read "Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark"

I'm unsure, but wanted to express my appreciation for ALL of the folks who carved out this Habitat and guarded it so ferociously. You have my gratitude.

Seconded. The show used Benjen Stark to screw with us! Just to hammer home the true nihilism of it all. I like narrative works that paint in shades of gray. It is becoming impossible to be very invested in something that is, as Sansa said, either terrible or boring.

I think Sansa and (less useless now) Reek survive. They fall into snow (not water) and, while shimpy is right that you need a lot of snow to survive , it might have been in the lee of the castle, and the wind can deposit a lot of snow. I'm grasping at straws, aren't I? Is Sam the only one JS told about Hardhome? If yes, then he probably deserved to die. And why wasn't Ghost going nuts? Did they fucking kill Ghost?!?

That is a perfect solution to that question. I love it! Maybe the dragons aren't going to fight the WWs (at least not at first), but are going to just pump out lots of Valyrian steel swords.

2. I love the idea of a dragon army! I think three full sized fully grown dragons should be pretty formidable, though. That's all that Aegon needed (+ some allies and two sisters) to conquer Westeros. 3. I think the current occupants of Valyria are the exiled stonemen infected with greyscale. 4. I remember Sam reading about dragonglass, and Shireen (sob) reading to Davos about dragons. I don't remember Sam reading about dragons off the top of my head. 5. Tywin said the last of the dragon skulls in the throne room were the size of apples. Varys may have said something similar. So the triplets are already much bigger than that. How big will they get? Great question, one that everyone around Dany seems uninterested in.

Dany needs a Maester with a link for Dragon Research to crack open some dusty books asap. I Hope she frees the two "innocent" dragons from the Mereen dungeon. Is there a link between dragons and greyscale? Other than the leper colony in the remains of Valyria? Also, the two iconic things about pre-Doom Valyria were dragons and Valyrian steel. Could there be a link between them, and that's why no one since The Doom can make new V steel?

Quite liked it, knowing nothing other than it is an adaptation of a fat book that I bought for a friend once. Sort of reminded me of Neil Gaiman having a glass of magical hock with Jane Austin? Interesting. Was the implication that J Strange could see N whenever Mr. N was near a mirror?

The skull of the one that Arya hid in while eavesdropping on Varys and Illyrio had teeth that were as tall as she was. Drogon currently has teeth that are about as long as her hand. If Drogon grows up to be one of the dragons the size of the "beasts that brought the whole world to heel", I am thinking he will be at least 10x larger than he is now. Multiply that times 3 and that would be a lot of dragon.

Thanks to you all. I will lurk around and see where everyone is after E10.

I don’t think that the choices Game of Thrones has made this season are the kind of show I trust to spend a lot of time thinking about and parsing the meaning of. What is the point in speculating about what a character might or might not do and what it means, if the show runners can then just re-write the character or retcon the world? I am left believing that GoT now has little to offer but manipulative gut punches and shock, and it is too lazy / compressed / IDK what to earn these through character / world building, without gimmicks. I don’t need my entertainment to be happy, and I don’t need nobility and “good” to triumph, but I do need consistency. I can deal with (not be entertained by, but perhaps educated by) horrible things happening to innocent characters, if those horrors are earned by the show. They have to be earned through details, earned by showing us characters wrestling with momentous decisions or horrible choices, and earned by consistency. For me, this season Game of Thrones has failed to earn the horrors and the bleakness, is resorting to manipulation, and seems addicted to plot twists for the sake of plot twists (rather than the feel of organic inevitability I loved so much in S1 - S3 and that was on the decline in S4). The show has done a really horrible job (IMO natch) of handling everything in KL, the entire Dorne storyline, grayscale, the “great fighters” the Unsullied and our continued pointless, momentum-less time in Mereen, Sansa’s rape, and now Shireen’s murder. This season has been filled with stalling, retcons, gimmicks, and filler (again, IMO), so my trust in the show to not resort to these just to rip our guts out (over and over) is exhausted. I finally asked myself a foundational question: Would I recommend GoT to a friend? And if the answer is no, why should I watch as anything but a casual viewer? And so, my friends, I’m resigning my commission at the Spitball Wall, at least for now. If you get stuck on a question about who said what when, you can try a PM and I will consult the Master Compendium of Scripts. Who knows, I may be back next week after the show makes Shireen’s murder some sort of nightmare that Davos had on his way to Castle Black. I wanted you to know, if this is the end of our time together, that I have really enjoyed this journey with you all. You have made everything that was worthwhile in previous seasons even more enjoyable, and you have taken the sting out of the many horrors the show has thrown our way.

I'm suffering from ptsd and brutality fatigue. I'm out for a few days to regroup and reevaluate my TV decisions.

I wish to formally renounce my allegiance to Stannis Baratheon, titles titles, and note for the record that the Stannis they had presented up until this episode was *incapable* of burning, or by omission of word or deed allowing to be burned, Princess Shireen of House Baratheon. I will defend the King I knew, not this... person tonight.

I like the spec, but Jon isn't immune to fire. He burned his hand throwing a lamp at the zomboni that came to kill Ld Cmd Mormont. As for how Stannis knew to come visit The Wall, Maester Aemon sent ravens across the 7K, Davos read one, Stannis sentenced Davos to death for freeing Gendry, Mel burned the scroll and said 'death marches on The Wall', and to bring Davos because he was needed as well.

Fo shizzle, mah hizzle.

Hizdahr zo Loraq is Dany's intended.

So the reason I went back to try to find all the WW dialogue I could find was this spitball: My theory is that the WWs are essentially humans possessed by demons. The WWs are clearly humanoid in appearance, they wear clothes, own and use technology-appropriate weapons, and at least some (all?) of them are the result of the... conversion of a normal (if anything emanating from Craster's Keep could be called "normal") human baby into a WW. For deities to intervene into this world usually requires a human actor to allow the supernatural to "cross over" into this world, whether it is Thoros praying for supernatural intervention to bring Beric back from the dead, Melisandre burning the Ursurper Leeches, or for the sacrifice of Varys' "root and stem" in a brazier. Human sacrifice, either in whole or in part, also seems to be a part of many of the rituals that bring the deities to this world; "death pays for life", blood-engorged leeches, Varys, blood magic. (The exception there seems to be Thoros.) Now there will probably never be a reveal of this in-universe, but I think that it is at least reasonable that one of these demons was summoned by a human sorcerer and figured out a way to possess the sorcerer. This demonic intrusion into this world then figured out a way to create new "vessels" (for more of its demon friends, or for more iterations of itself) by turning babies into infantcicles without needing a human actor to allow it / them to cross over. The ability to animate the dead would be a means to more control over the world, and probably relatively a small potatoes party trick to it / them. I don't have any idea why it / they would lie fallow for thousands of years -- it has been hard enough wrestling with this spitball since Sunday. Varys: He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a hooked blade he sliced me, root and stem, chanting all the while. He burned my parts in a brazier. The flames turned blue and I heard a voice answer his call. I still dream of that night. Not of the sorcerer, not of his blade. I dream of the voice from the flames. Was it a god? A demon? A conjuror's trick? I don't know. But the sorcerer called and a voice answered.

Sole Survivor: I saw the White Walkers. People need to know. Bran: Is it true he saw the White Walkers? Ned: The White Walkers have been gone for thousands of years. Tyrion: (To Cersei) Where's your sense of wonder? The greatest structure ever built, the intrepid men of The Night's Watch, the wintry abode of the White Walkers. Jaime: Let me thank you ahead of time for guarding us all from the perils beyond The Wall-- Wildlings and White Walkers and whatnot. We're grateful to have good, strong men like you protecting us. Jon: We've guarded the kingdoms for 8,000 years. Jaime: Is it "we" already? Have you taken your vows then? Jon: Soon enough. Jaime: Give my regards to The Night's Watch. I'm sure it will be thrilling to serve in such an elite force. And if not? It's only for life. Old Nan: (To Bran) Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know about fear? Fear is for the winter, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die all in darkness. That is the time for fear, my little lord, when the White Walkers move through the woods. Thousands of years ago there came a night that lasted a generation. Kings froze to death in their castles, same as the shepherds in their huts. And women smothered their babies rather than see them starve, and wept and felt the tears freeze on their cheeks. So is this the sort of story that you like? In that darkness, the White Walkers came for the first time. They swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders, big as hounds… Tyrion: But I don't believe that giants and ghouls and White Walkers are lurking beyond the Wall. I believe that the only difference between us and the Wildlings is that when the Wall went up, our ancestors happened to live on the right side of it. Benjen: You're right. The Wildlings are no different from us. A little rougher maybe. But they're made of meat and bone. I know how to track them and I know how to kill them. It's not the Wildlings giving me sleepless nights. You've never been north of The Wall, so don't tell me what's out there. Maester Aemon: We've been capturing Wildlings, more every month. They're fleeing south. The ones who flee say they've seen the White Walkers. Tyrion: Yes, and the fishermen of Lannisport say they see mermaids. Bran: I'm Brandon Stark of Winterfell. If you don't let me be, I'll have you all killed! Wildling 2: Cut his little cock off and stuff it in his mouth. Osha: The boy's worth nothing dead. Benjen Stark's own blood? Think what Mance would give us. Wildling 1: Piss on Mance Rayder, and piss on the North. We're going as far South as South goes. There ain't no White Walkers down in Dorne. Sam: They were touched by White Walkers. That's why they came back. That's why their eyes turned blue. Only fire will stop them. Jon: How do you know that? Sam: I read about it in a book, a very old book, in Maester Aemon's library. Jon: What else did the book say? Sam: The White Walkers sleep beneath the ice for thousands of years. And when they wake up... Pyp: And when they wake up, what? Sam: I hope The Wall is high enough. Sam: The Fist of the First Men! Think of how old this place is-- before the Targaryens defeated the Andals, before the Andals took Westeros from the First Men. Edd: Before I die, please, stop talking. Sam: Thousands and thousands of years ago, the First Men stood here where we're standing all through the Long Night. What do you think they were like, the First Men? Edd: Stupid. Smart people don't find themselves in places like this. Jon: I think they were afraid. I think they came here to get away from something. And I don't think it worked. Jon: I saw Craster take his own baby boy and leave it in the woods. I saw what took it. Mance: You're telling me you saw one of them? And why would that make you desert your brothers? Jon: Because when I told the Lord Commander, he already knew. Thousands of years ago, the First Men battled the White Walkers and defeated them. I want to fight for the side that fights for the living. Did I come to the right place? Mance: We'll need to find you a new cloak. Craster: I got no fear of what's out there. When the white cold comes, your swords and cloaks and bloody fires won't help you. The only ones left will be those who are right with the gods. The real gods. Bran: What is it? Jojen: Dragonglass. Sam: We found them at the Fist. Someone buried them a long time ago. Someone wanted us to find them. Bran: Why? What are they for? Sam: Killing White Walkers. Meera: How do you know that? Gilly: The Walker came for my baby. And Sam… Meera: But no one's killed a White Walker in thousands of years. Sam: Well, I suppose someone had to be the first. Gilly: Shouldn't you be training, too? Sam: Well, I'm hardly a new recruit. How many brothers can say that they've killed a White Walker and a Thenn? I might be the first in history. Jon: (To Mance) And what happens to your people? You preserve your dignity and die standing and they'll sing songs about you. You'd rather burn than kneel. The great hero. Until winter comes and the White Walkers come for us all and there's no one left to sing. Jon: (To Tormund) Your people need a leader. And they need to get south of The Wall before it's too late. We don't have much time and they have less. The Walkers are coming and they'll hit your people first. I'm not asking you to make peace to save your skin. Make peace to save your people. Stannis: You don't look like a soldier. But I'm told you killed a White Walker. Sam: I did, Your Grace. Stannis: How? Sam: With a dagger made of dragonglass. Stannis: Dragonglass? Sam: What the maesters call obsidian. Stannis: I know what it is. We have it in Dragonstone. Why would obsidian kill a Walker? Sam: I don't know. I've been going through all the old manuscripts hoping to find something, and all I've learned is that the Children of the Forest used to hunt with dragonglass. Sam: (To Olly) I've seen the army of the dead. I've seen the White Walkers. And they're coming for us, for all the living. And when it's time, we'll need every last man we can find. Jon: My name's Jon Snow. I'm Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. We're not friends. We've never been friends. We won't become friends today. This isn't about friendship. This is about survival. This is about putting a 700-foot wall between you and what's out there. Wildling Woman: You built that wall to keep us out. Thenn: Since when do the crows give two shits if we live? Jon: In normal times we wouldn't. But these aren't normal times. The White Walkers don't care if a man's Free Folk or crow. We're all the same to them, meat for their army. But together we can beat them. Wildling Woman: Beat the White Walkers? Good luck with that. Run from them, maybe.