Avaleigh

Rhaegal: What's worse is he's still mother's fucking favorite.

I don't think show Tywin was going to let Tyrion live. Maybe it was possible prior to the crossbow incident but in that moment I thought he was trying to tell Tyrion what he wanted to hear. He told Tyrion that he'd let him live, he said they could talk about it, he calls him his son, etc. Once he gets shot he's back to telling Tyrion how he really feels--that Tyrion is no son of his. I also didn't like that Varys had nothing to do with helping give Tyrion directions to the secret entrance to the TotH. I agree that it's odd that Tywin acted so stunned when he had the truth thrown in his face since he knew the incest was true in the scene with Jaime where he talks about Jaime fathering children with the last name of Lannister. I also feel like Tywin would have been inclined to call her bluff. (I do think she was ultimately bluffing even if she didn't exactly see it that way in that moment. ) I can imagine him describing a life on the run even if they did have gold. Jaime can't defend them in the same way he used to, Tommen's life would still be in danger, they don't exactly blend in, I'm not even sure if Tommen could inherit Casterly Rock pure Lannister or not since he'd also be a bastard. (The main reason I'm unsure is because in the books when Jaime is saying that he and Cersei should marry and she's objecting, Jaime asks Cersei why inheriting the Rock wouldn't be enough for Tommen rather than having him sit the IT.)

I keep seeing the speculation that Jaime will spend the bulk of next season away from KL. Is there any reason he shouldn't stick around for the first half of the season? Ideally the first episode would contain reactions and the funeral. There's Tommen and Margaery's wedding, plus he'll likely need to interact with Loras (assuming Loras joins the KG) , Bronn, Tommen, and maybe Lancel in addition to whatever scenes he'd have with Cersei. I don't know, I do agree that losing Tywin, Tyrion, and Jaime from KL is going to be tough. Curious about what Jojen's death does to the Jojen paste theories

I enjoyed it but Tywin's death didn't blow me away here like it did in the books. I'm trying to put my finger on what it was for me that kept it from being completely satisfying. I think book Tywin seemed less concerned and less wary of the situation than show Tywin did. Show Tywin seemed almost nervous and I thought one of the things that was great about the scene from the book is that Tywin still tries to treat Tyrion in the dismissive way he's always treated him only this time Tyrion is completely through with being treated that way ever again and it's just Tywin's bad luck that he never learned to be respectful to his son or take him seriously. Shae's death was lame and anticlimactic for me. I was really hoping for some kind of conversation between the two of them to help give us an idea of her relationship with Tywin and the length of it, whether or not she's a spy, if she ever loved Tyrion, etc. I also rolled my eyes, laughed, and thought of benteen's prediction about crying Tyrion when Shae reached for the knife. Loved the Tywin Cersei scene though. Her gleeful expression when she told him his legacy was a lie was a great moment IMO. To me she might as well have shot him with a crossbow. I mean she basically told him that he's a bad man and that she fears the idea of her son being raised by him and becoming like him. ETA: Charles Dance was great here. I honestly can't tell whether Tywin was deluded or not with that level of denial. Show Cersei is doing everything book Jaime ever wanted her to do. In the books she's the more rational one when it comes to wanting to keep their relationship a secret while he wants to be open. I'm guessing he's going to take her at her word and when he wants to marry or be more open she's going to change her mind now that Tywin is out of the picture. I agree that it would be more interesting to see Jaime getting turned off at seeing what a shit ruler she is. It'll make a great moment if we could get a scene where he tells her that she reminds him of the Mad King when it comes to ruling. So does this make Jojen paste more or less likely? I didn't think the episode needed Lady Stoneheart. Mance is a fucking boss.

Hmm, yeah, the Bronn thing is weird. So the idea is that Tyrion blames Jaime for Cersei successfully turning Bronn over to her side? I can't explain exactly why I'm disappointed that Bronn might be part of the wedge between Jaime and Tyrion but I am. Maybe it's because I feel like that could damage the Jaime Bronn relationship before it's had the chance to really solidify. I don't know, I'm excited but I guess I'm also feeling apprehensive. I really hope they don't spend too much time with Jon. I enjoy Jon and I get that a lot of people love Stannis and I like him too but if ever there was an episode I'd like to be Lannister heavy it's this one. I'mrreally looking forward to Cersei's scene with Tywin because my hope is that it'll give us some insight into how he feels about his kids and what responsibility he bears in terms of how they turned out. I'd also like (but don't expect) a comment from Cersei to Tywin that is similar to Tyrion's comment about Tywin never personally sacrificing something personal for Team Lannister. I just really want someone to nail Tywin for his hypocrisy for all these years and Cersei seems like the best bet since they're having a scene and Cersei still has the inconvenient marriage hanging over her head. Speaking of which I guess they're going to carry over the Cersei Loras engagement for a third season.

I think hiding Needle is the main thing that indicates Arya would one day like to reclaim her real identity. While I agree that Arya wouldn't have wanted to be a princess who was sent off to marry some guy in order to make an alliance, I don't think she'd object hugely to being the Lady of Winterfell since she loved it so much. Again though, my thought is that Arya wouldn't necessarily hear about Ramsay being a bad guy, just that he was a Bolton from the North who gave Theon some vicious payback after Theon killed her two younger brothers. Re: Arya getting close to people, I guess she does have that effect. OTOH, the Kindly Man is still with us. He's the only one I can think of unless Sam counts. Lol, should Roose be worried? As much as I was one of those people who loved, loved Arya's scenes with Tywin part of me thinks that he probably would have put two and two together but for storyline purposes it obviously couldn't have been done. I think I'd have felt the same had Arya had scenes with Roose instead. All this being said, the Littlefinger moment worked for me in that I could see him initially not taking notice of a serving girl. Varys though IMO would have instantly known it was Arya.

They had a perfect opportunity to bring up Lyanna during that early Oberyn Tyrion conversation but they didn't even have him say her name to remind people of the character.

No way can they have Jaime and Tyrion part as friends. I can't see why they'd spend so much time building up the Jaime/Tyrion relationship only to have no pay off at the end of the season. As devastating as it was to see Jaime and Tyrion part in such a negative fashion, I think I'd be even more bummed to not see it because it's such a powerful moment. Plus, their bad parting makes me look forward to the day they meet again more than I probably would have had there been no conflict between them. Similarly, I hardly think I'd be as interested in the next meeting between Jaime and Cersei if they weren't at complete odds with each other as they are now.

Wasn't Jeyne the girl who saddled Arya with the nickname Arya Horseface? Lol while teasing obviously isn't a good enough reason for Arya to go jumping to conclusions, I can see Arya automatically thinking the very worst of a "stupid" girl like Jeyne . Arya seemed to resent both Sansa and Jeyne so it isn't hard for me to imagine her feeling incredibly pissed off and frustrated that Jeyne of all people is posing as her and has even been able to live in Winterfell again. I can see it being a situation where she doesn't find out how horrible Ramsay is. I can see this being her impression especially if she somehow hears something about Ramsay being the Northman who punished Theon.Eta Identity is such a huge thing with Arya it's hard for me to believe that she wouldn't freak out over the idea of someone taking the identity she so very much wants (IMO anyway) to reclaim as her own.

Good point, JeanSheridan, about Shae hopefully going out with more of a fight on the show. I honestly think Tyrion would have to do more than just strangle her. I feel like something else would have to help give him an advantage to where she can't fight him off or hurt him during the confrontation. Whatever he does though can't make much noise or else why wouldn't Tywin come out upon hearing the struggle? Going back for a moment to the idea of Shae being a spy for Tywin---another clue is when Shae tells Sansa that she can get Littlefinger to stop if Littlefinger tries to pull any creepy shit on her. Sansa kind of laughs and wonders what Shae could possibly do but Shae seems very matter of fact and confident. I can't think why else she'd be so confident as she wouldn't really have reason to believe that Tyrion could keep Littlefinger in check. Tywin on the other hand? I'd like it if the show would address why Robert or Tywin or even Joffrey didn't hire a Faceless Man long ago to deal with Dany and Viserys. It's actually something that still confuses me about the books as well. I know they're supposed to be wildly expensive but it also seems like they go around giving the gift for free. Not only that but what if a FM who is the best person to get the job done but had once met the target? Is knowing the person still more important than getting the job done efficiently? That just seems silly IMO.

If they do include Mance's baby (and so far they haven't done anything to set that up) then maybe Val isn't off of the table after all. It's not that I think she's terribly important, I just think that she would be a good character for Jon to bounce some dialogue off of especially with characters like Sam, Grenn, and Pyp being out of the picture.

I'm curious to know if Sansa and Jeyne will ever meet again. Sansa won't likely ever find out about all of the awful shit that Jeyne has suffered via Ramsay but I would be interested in having her thoughts about Littlefinger being the one to place Jeyne in the role of fake Arya. I honestly don't know how she'd feel about that. I can imagine Arya being incredibly pissed off at the idea of Jeyne Poole impersonating her. I'm not even sure if the idea of Jeyne not having a choice in the matter would even register with her at this point since she's in such an unforgiving place. It wouldn't help of course that she and Jeyne were never all that friendly in the first place. Eta: This is really book speculation as I can't see them incorporating the relationships Jeyne had with Sansa and Arya on the show.

To me the biggest change about Selyse on the show is her attitude to Shireen. IIRC book Selyse is a bitch but she loves and feels very protective over her daughter. I can only think that the reason for the change is so that she won't oppose Melisandre when Mel comes up with the burn!Shireen plan but it still doesn't make sense why either woman would ever think this is a good idea particularly if they're in the presence of an enemy wildling with King's blood. Since they made sure to have Sansa mention Jeyne Poole in the first season I'm inclined to think fake Arya is very much on the table. I only wish they'd already set up Littlefinger's role for what happens to that poor girl. I hope they don't take out that detail because it's a perfect example of why a man like Littlefinger is so dangerous and awful even to people who aren't standing in his way.

Based on everything I've seen and read I can't help but feel like this episode has the potential to be my favorite one ever. It sounds like it's going to have everything. In fact, it has me wondering if this is my own high point as far as the series goes. Yeah, I'm looking forward to the Dany riding Drogon moment, Jon's Julius Caesar experience, the two arrests/trials, and the two battles but I think this is probably the last of the main ones where I definitely feel like I have certain expectations. The others for me were RW/PW, Viper/Mountain duel, BoB, Lysa/Moon Door, and Ned's death. I hope Bran & co still run into the wights. (They didn't see any Others in the books ,right? Just wights?

I'm confused as to how Shireen works as a substitution for baby Mance. Why wouldn't Melisandre just burn Mance? How would she think she could do something like that without permanently alienating Stannis? Also, if the idea is to have Sam and Gilly be the ones to ferry Shireen to safety, what does the show do with her then? If they send her off with Davos somehow, that would be tough to tie into the Manderly plot. OTOH I kind of like the idea of Rickon and Shireen being friends for some reason not that I think that'll actually happen.

I hope they keep the Alys plot and since the Unsullied are already familiar with the Karstarks it doesn't have to come across as filler. Like the Tormund suggestion too. The other reason I want them to keep Alys is that it's a good chance for the Unsullied to see Melisandre be wrong about something she sees in the flames. Val is the one I can't see making it at this point and that's a shame because I was looking forward to seeing her interact with Selyse and Shireen. Thinking about this reminds me about the loss of Patchface and Melisandre's comment about how he's dangerous. I wonder if the danger she saw in him will be transferred over to Shireen? Re: Littlefinger and Lady Stoneheart--- I'd be fine with having her force a kiss on him. That would just be creepy and dementor-ish. I think it's also important that there are people around during Littlefinger's death. Ideally a mix of those he knows he's fucked over and those he thinks he can still bend to his will. Alternating between begging and attempting to give some lame ass command that he knows won't be followed would be nice to see too. Viserys's death worked for me for these reasons and others.

I like the idea of a brief montage of scenes to give an idea of where certain characters are headed. Arya sailing to Braavos looking hopeful, Jon on top of the Wall for the first time as LC, Sansa traveling with Littlefinger and maybe she's riding in front looking confident, Bran with Bloodraven engaging in weirwood action, Jorah at the brothel (like that idea), Tyrion also sailing away, etc.

I think Littlefinger has to have a special death in store for him. Of all the thingstthat would let me down that one is definitely high on the list. I just can't decide what I'd most like to see. Does he deserve to be taken out by an Other? Lady Stoneheart? A dragon? Moon Door? A sword through the heart by Arya? Beheading in front of the mob like Ned? All sound appealing quite frankly. The main point for me is that I want him to go through some kind of terror where he's either pleading, crying, pissing himself, running like his life depends on it---as long as he's scared I'll be happy. Lady Stoneheart might very well frighten him the most, IDK. In terms of the more villainous people in the story I think the "special" deaths should also include Ramsay and Ser Robert Strong. Ramsay would get the Vargo Hoat treatment if it were up to me only Jeyne would have first dibs. I'm normally not an advocate of torture but Ramsay is a special case Imho. I want that asshole to pay. Ser Robert Strong's death should be interesting since it'll probably take something more than skillful swordmanship and I wonder how GRRM will incorporate that with the Hound taking him out, if that ends up happening. I want Walder Frey to die, but I want him to die last during RW2.0

The scene with the facialist reminded me of a scene from the 1939 film The Women. I wouldn't be surprised if the gossip about Sonja is true. I rolled my eyes hard when Aviva told Luann to "be a friend" . She can leave anytime. I can't even deal with the George situation right now. Unbelievable that Aviva doesn't seem to understand that it isn't cute. I hope he's never been inappropriate with her. Looking forward to next week's episode. Luann is coming off really well. I'm still shaking my head that they dumped her when she's giving exactly what each episode needs IMO. Not saying she's the only lady doing this I just think it's funny that they dumped Luann and now she's getting all of this positive feedback. I hope they bring her back full time and admit that they made a mistake. That could be pretty satisfying for her.

I'm wondering if they're trying to make it look like Melisandre is trying to take credit for something that had nothing to do with her leech spell. They had her talk about her potions with Selyse a few episodes back where she's not quite admitting that she is (or can be) a fraud, so I wonder if maybe they're spacing out the deaths to give less credence to the idea that she's as powerful as she says/thinks she is. The babyshadow thing is impressive admittedly but she's almost a one trick pony apart from her apparent immunity to poison. That or having enough skill to read the flames in order to have already prepared herself with an antidote. I've always been suspicious of how powerful she really is. OTOH her prediction for Arya seemed to be presented in a way that was meant to be taken as true, so that makes me think the show is going to make her more accurate when it comes to reading the flames than she is in the books

In the books it's easy to see how the Lannister family has benfitted from their close royal ties, but on the show Tywin and Cersei together make it seem like Tywin was propping up Robert financially and that Tywin was getting minimal to no return on his investments in the crown. In the books Tywin is responsible for turning around the family's fortune. He makes them the wealthiest family in the kingdoms while his own father was going around lending people money without ever collecting it back. Now the show is making it seem as though Tywin is the one who is largely responsible for not doing anything about the family finances and that doesn't seem right to me somehow. I prefer the idea of the Lannisters having the money, resources, talent, strength, intelligence, looks, etc and *still* fucking it up even with all their advantages, and largely because of certain familial relationships. I don't want Tywin's inability to properly deal with the financial situation to really factor into the equation of the Fall of House Lannister. I'd prefer it to come about from his mistakes as a man on a personal level. His abominable treatment of Tyrion, his cruel disregard for Cersei, his blindness when it comes to Jamie's issues, ignoring the years long problem of the incest, his own hypocrisy, etc. Eta On the show I don't really see the proof that Tywin has been rewarded financially for repeatedly lending Robert money. We don't hear about the Lannisters increasing the size of the Westerlands with lands grants or certain people being showered with titles, or special taxes or ways to get extra income out of Lannisport or anything like that. It's also annoying t o know that even as late as the epilogue of ADWD we know that Kevan is a very rich man and that there isn't really any reason to think that the Lannisters should be so dependent on the mines for the majority of their finances. I'm sure they make money in a variety of different ways and have done for years so I'm not really seeing how it's logical or necessary to introduce the idea that Tywin is struggling financially.

I considered the idea that Tywin is all about keeping up appearances and that this could be the reason for his inability to effectively deal with the family's financial situation. On one hand I agree that appearances mean a lot to Tywin and that he very much cares about people's opinions despite what he might have to say about lions not caring about the voices of the sheep or however it was he put it. OTOH I'm also thinking about the scene he had with Olenna where he's chiding her over excess of the wedding. He tells her that people who blow their money on things like parties tend not to have their money long. To me, this doesn't sound like a man who is willing to bury his head in the sand when it comes to dealing with hard financial truths. It's also worth pointing out that he's making sure the next two weddings will be low key affairs. Running with the idea that Tywin is similar to a British aristocrat from the early 20th century, Tywin hasn't taken the measures that a man like that should have taken if he wants to deal with the money issue. First thing---he's had 3-5years notice that the last mine is dry . So what does he do during this time? Does he find himself a young bride with a dowry, Roose Bolton style? Maybe look for a merchant's daughter in the east or maybe even a Hightower from Oldtown. Finding a bride for Tyrion would have been another temporary solution. Instead of doing something like that he chooses to contnue to fund Robert's bullshit in addition to paying for his own expensive war. He also doesn't bother to explain to his children about the lack of money so consequently we see each one of them spending in the way they normally would. Plus, even though Cersei knows that they aren't financially sound Tywin doesn't really make it seem like he plans on dealing with the situation when she questions him about how they might be able to go about making an arrangement of payment. It was a frustrating conversation and IMO it didn't really shed much light on what brilliant idea Tywin had to pay/fend off the Iron Bank. Is it that he truly has no solution?

Sorry, I should have clarified that I thought they were using flaming arrows for visibility because they were shooting a night scene. There's a moment when Ygritte dodges a flaming arrow and one gets the sense that she likely wouldn't have seen it had it not been on fire. Similarly, I imagine they thought it would be easier for audiences to catch a small moment like that with a flaming arrow--it just looks more dramatic. The arrow that finally hit her wasn't aflame because there wasn't really a need for it visually.

Gah, I have the same worry as you right now, Pete Martell, regarding the upcoming Jaime/Cersei scene. At this point I'm basically always worried about what they're doing with Jaime because I feel like they don't get him at all. Actually, it's more of a feeling like sometimes they totally get him and other times not at all so the writing for him feels uneven, plus there's that letdown factor--I feel like they get him in an awesome scene like with Catelyn and then they do something like having him kill his cousin because he "loves killing". It's like wait, what? We can get the awesome tub scene but then we also get something like the rape scene. (Even though I'm trying to pretend the rape scene didn't happen, it's kind of hard when you have Benioff flat out say in the Inside the Episode that it was force. It's like if you see it that way then how were you not writing about it with that in mind and how does it suddenly not effect the writing for those characters later on? I'm still in agreement that it's better to pretend that it didn't happen but with the preview scene I couldn't help but feel worried like they might throw anything at us just for shock value.) I know there's been a lot of discussion about D&D favoring House Lannister but for me it doesn't really come across as lopsided and I feel like I had the Wtf-are-you-guys-doing? reaction at multiple points in every season particularly when it comes to Jamie's character but also sometimes with Tyrion, and Tywin. With Cersei, when they include moments like the Pycelle/kennels comment, I feel like the showrunners basically get her at the end of the day so I don't have any big complaints about her characterization or portrayal. IMO we never got to see what an incredible swordsman Jaime was and it's still a huge gripe for me that we didn't get one scene to show, really show, how fucking good he was. That little display with Jory was only the tip of the iceberg. One of a thousand reasons for why the first season called for 12 episodes to be done properly. If I could have had just one extra scene added to s1 it would probably be one of Jaime taking out multiple Northmen before finally being taken down only because the numbers were impossible. With Tyrion I agree with the comments about how he has been white washed (it's especially noticeable in the way they portrayed his marriage to Sansa and his relationship with Cersei) and also agree that the proof that something has gone terribly wrong in his characterization is demonstrated by the fact that loads of Unsullied to see him as the so-called moral center of the show. To me though this doesn't come across as the showrunners being hopelessly biased in favor of House Lannister as much as it comes across as making changes and characterization choices that are taking away from significant complexities that I feel GRRM established in the book. (I also haven't noticed viewers seeming like they're more pro-Lannister than they arguably should be.)At the end of the day I don't know that a lot of the changes made did anything to enhance House Lannister or make it more interesting. The hint of Tyrion's monstrous side just isn't apparent to me on the show whereas in the books I felt like I saw flashes of that side of him in the first three books prior to the murder of Shae. While I was still shocked it seemed plausible that Tyrion was in a dark, murderous, blind rage. With the Light Tyrion they've given us on the show, I fully expect plenty of cries of this Sunday from those who are finding it hard to swallow that kind, funny Tyrion who has even repeatedly been shown to have sympathy for Cersei, had it in him to kill the woman he loved.

riff raff I thought the need for flaming arrows was supposed to be about visibility since it was a night scene. Re: the Others I agree with you completely about the lack of mentioning them not making any sense considering they're supposed to be the main reason the wildlings have banded together.