Slovenly Muse

I doubt it. This is a comedy show doing a comedy bit. I don't think it is any more real than Trevor taking cover in his underground hideout on his Halloween show. I'm sure if this were real, it would have made headlines. Sam does travel to do these pieces. Remember her interviews at the Syrian refugee camp? That wasn't hyped by the media either. She travels all over the U.S. to interview people, and she went to the U.N. last week (it may not have been a long way to go, but she was demonstrably there). I don't recall her ever trying to make it appear that she was somewhere she wasn't for comedic value. I think it's fair to take her at her word that she went to Russia for that piece. Why it's not making headlines, though, probably says more about the state of headlines these days than anything else.

There's a big difference. Maybe I can add to what natyxg is saying. When you are a "visitor" to San Junipero, you are alive inside your organic body. Your consciousness is seated in your organic brain, and that is where your memories are stored. You are a different KIND of being. Despite the posts up top, I don't think anyone is saying that "passing over" to San Junipero is like literally putting your SOUL inside a computer, but it's also not as simple as saying "souls don't exist, we are just the product of our memories, so why can't that all be copied digitally?" Living in an organic body is a huge part of life. There's no way that a digital copy of a person can actually BE that same person. Right now, for example, I live in an organic body. My memories and sensory experience of the world are all determined by my brain. But my brain is a living thing that can be flooded with different types of chemicals and hormones that can cause me to feel certain ways. If I'm hungry, or in pain, or PMS-ing, or eight months pregnant, or high on drugs, or releasing endorphins, that will effect my mood and possibly cause me to make choices that I would not under different circumstances. That's what life, what personality, IS. Our daily choices and daily lives are really a reaction to stimuli from an organic world. A VR world cannot replicate those same chemical impulses. And our memories are the same way. My memory is not objectively accurate. It changes over time, and can depend deeply on emotions. Think of a fight you had with someone where both of you adamantly believed the other was the instigator. Or the person you loved deeply, with whom your treasured every moment, until they broke your heart and you began looking back on your time with them feeling very differently, seeing in hindsight little signs that may or may not have actually been there at the time. Memory is notoriously unreliable and suggestible, and depends on emotion and brain chemistry. CAN a computer replicate human brain chemistry? How can a person living in an organic body continue to BE the same person when that organic chemistry is stripped away and they are reduced to the pure "ones and zeros" that is only the RESULT of that chemistry? How can that digital copy live in a meaningful way, grow, change, make choices, experience emotion, when the internal stimulus (brain chemistry) is now determined by a computer program instead of real life? How can memories saved to a computer shape you in the same way memories saved to your imperfect and highly suggestible brain do? If emotion depends on brain chemistry, and brain chemistry is determined by a computer, then San Junipero really IS a trap. Because what corporation would allow its digital citizens (customers) to experience the kind of stimuli that would make them choose to discontinue their service? Or discourage "visitors" from buying it? People would cease having a genuine experience once they "passed over" and begin having an experience dictated down to their very emotions by the corporation who now houses them. Authentic choices would no longer be possible. That's not real, and it's not life. Digital citizens might be people (sentient beings), but they cannot be the SAME people they were when they were alive. Regardless of whether or not souls exist, I just can't believe that the complexity of a human identity can be transferred to and maintained seamlessly by a hard drive. Hmmm. I sought to bring a bit of clarity to this point, and I'm not sure I succeeded. This is a VERY difficult subject to wrap a complex but limited human brain around. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I don't believe that "passing over" to San Junipero really means living forever. I think it's just a comforting lie. But what lives on is not you. It might pick up where you left off, but it will never really be "you." And that's just scratching the surface of the myriad implications of this episode. Possibly the most existentially-complicated episode of the series. Yikes.

I'm not sure that it IS a particularly hopeful ending. I mean, yes, it's cathartic to see these characters make a human connection that's based on reality and not some arbitrary system of numbers, but in the end, that catharsis is practically meaningless. Lacy is rated about as close to a zero as a person can get and now has a criminal record. She may have had a genuine experience and found some personal fulfillment, but when she gets out of jail she will find herself back in a world that determines her value based on a number that she can't control. She'll never be able to have those cathartic moments again; not if she also wants a place to live, a job, the ability to buy nice things and live in comfort... She's a pariah, and likely always will be. In a way, giving her a taste of genuine human connection was the cruellest ending possible for her, because she doesn't live in a world where that sincerity can be parlayed into happiness. (And I certainly don't mean to imply that material wealth is the same as happiness. I'm only saying that from what we see in this episode of how "sub-3's" are treated, your ranking affects your whole experience of life, not just your wealth and physical comfort.) I agree that the ending was not as bleak as most episodes, but it feels a bit simplistic to say that this one is "hopeful." It gave me a lot to stew in, and I'm still not sure how I felt about it all, but I will certainly not be forgetting this one anytime soon!

I used to think nothing could compare to the original movie, until a local offbeat theatre company began doing a yearly October run of The Rocky Horror Show. The first time I went, I didn't have high hopes, but it turned out, the show was FANTASTIC! Like, ten times more fun than going to see the movie. I realized that you don't need Tim Curry to play Frank in order for the character to be dynamic, compelling, and deranged in all the right ways. They didn't stick exactly to the movie, and made some stylistic changes that just flat-out WORKED for their vision of the show, and while the audience participation aspect was a bit unpredictable (encouraged, but you didn't always get the openings you expected), I don't think I've ever had more fun at the theatre in my life. Because they GET IT. It had a different energy than the movie, but everything that made the movie great shone through in every moment. I say this, because I see a lot of people in this thread not seeming to know whether they were unsatisfied with FOX's version because it genuinely missed the mark, or because they just have too much love and nostalgia for the original to really get on board with any other interpretation. Believe me, when it's good, when it's made by people who love the original for the right reasons and genuinely want to join the fun, you will love it. And if you didn't love this version, you have no one to blame but FOX.

Good on Gina Torres for getting out. She deserves WAY better than this show. But damn, what are they going to do without her? And more importantly, how many of those outfits did she steal from wardrobe on her way out? So much of this episode was ridiculous, but I admit, I did experience some emotions at times, which puts it far above the rest of the season. Not sure I can stand another season of Harvey, Louis, and Mike running around shouting at each other while madly trying to put out the fires they themselves set. But I have a feeling curiosity will bring me back again, just to see what the hell they try and do now. Watching this show try to write itself out of corners is like watching a rat try to navigate a maze. You don't depend on it to lead the way, you're just fascinated by what it does when it encounters simple obstacles.

I kind of hate myself for how damn invested I am in this season. I can't help it, I am really enjoying it! Even Angela's weird acting choices, I don't mind. And as much as I am totally along for the ride, I keep thinking of Orphan Black's endless loop... each season is dedicated to figuring out who the shadowy conspiracy group is, only to find out that there is an even MORE shadowy group even higher up, and the next season is dedicated to investigating THEM, and so on. Is Mr. Robot going to do that same thing, only the answer is "Elliot was the secret puppetmaster all along" every time? Because that twist is going to get old fast! At the moment, though, I don't even care. I'm into it!

Love it. I'll add them, as well as (after this past episode): Drink when someone throws a tantrum over something they believe they are entitled to but didn't actually earn. Drink twice if it's NOT Mike! (Edit: Damn, looks like, since I'm not a mod, I can no longer edit that first post to add suggestions. Guess we'll just have to keep adding on in the thread!)

Hmmm. Just catching up on this one after vacation. I think I might be crazy, but I kind of... liked it? After this season dragging on and going absolutely NOWHERE, it was really satisfying to actually get some payoff. Finally, I felt some emotions over the Mike-in-prison storyline, and Harvey twisting the knife while informing Sutter that he'd been totally owned, that was the kind of thing that used to delight me about this show. That kind of win (even though it may not last long) used to happen in nearly every episode, now there's about one good one a season. Hopefully they keep the ball rolling right to the end! However, despite some surface enjoyment, this show will NEVER stop with all the childish tantrums and ludicrous behaviour. Like Mike believing he was entitled to his deal, even though he didn't actually give Cahill anything (and actually withheld what he did know), like effort counts more than results. And Innocence Project guy treating Rachel and Jessica like they were his family counsellors rather than lawyers, because saving his life when no one else would even listen should have been their secondary goal after convincing his aunt he didn't do it? His whole storyline feels like a waste of screentime. It has nothing to say, it doesn't mean anything, it's just something to keep Rachel and Jessica busy, and while I'm not opposed to Rachel having something to do independently of Mike, I'm kind of over this guy. I'm not convinced he didn't do it, but they're not playing up any suspense or uncertainty around that, so why bother wondering? He's not compelling, and he's not making Rachel OR Jessica any more compelling while dealing with him (Jessica is, of course, compelling on her own, but her interactions with this convict whose name I can't even remember are the least interesting things she's doing right now). And I have nothing against D.B. Woodside, but he never really brought much to the show, mostly because his character was poorly written and a little creepy (consistently violating Jessica's personal/professional boundaries that he had agreed to respect when he took the job, then getting mad at HER about it), so I'll be happy if he takes that Chicago gig and doesn't hang around. Jessica could do better. Good use of Donna this episode. Believable, personal, minimal. Just right. Mixed bag, of course, but I didn't regret watching it, and that's progress!

Brilliant.

What makes a show fun to watch? Nuanced performances! Snappy writing! Edge-of-your-seat drama! And, in the absence of those, BOOZE! And this is Suits we're taking about, so let's get this drinking game a' rollin'! Here's what we've got so far. Drink when: We hear an overused phrase: "What are you doing here?" "I don't give a shit!" "Now if you'll excuse me..." Someone mentions how awesome Donna is. Drink twice if it's Donna herself. Louis' personal life is upended. Hardcore version: Whenever the word "goddamn" is used, shout "goddamn!" and drink. (Warning: not advised) Bring 'em on! I'll edit this masterlist every so often to incorporate more rules as they are added. Happy drinking! :D

Ok, that does it. I'm starting a drinking game thread.

1 drink someone says, "I don't give a shit". Get drunk in the first 15 minutes of show. 1 drink for the phrase, "Now if you'll excuse me," which is also bizarrely overused. My understanding was that he was trying to scare Sutter's employees into turning against him. Pointing out how little he's done for them, how undeserving he is of their loyalty, etc, while making them feel like THEY are in the most danger from Sutter's legal trouble. The guy who came forward to Cahill likely did so after Harvey's interrogation (was it the guy we saw him interrogating? I didn't catch his name). Basically, even though he knew none of them had given up the trading program, he was planting the seed in their minds that it would be in their best interests to come forward with anything else they DID have and try to cut a deal before they end up sharing in the consequences with Sutter (or, more likely, taking the fall for him). Plus, they did not otherwise meet their quota of scenes with people pointlessly yelling at one another this week. As improbable as that sounds. I was also a bit boggled at just how much Donna had to do in this episode. I have no inherent dislike for Donna, and I get how she's a magical character who can pull the occasional rabbit out of her hat, but here we have Louis unable to do anything in his personal life without Donna doing it for him, Harvey asking Louis for help with his problem, Donna magically providing the key to it all and giving Louis what he needs to solve Harvey's thing, then solving Louis' thing for him (the architect) AND solving Louis' OTHER thing for him (the trader). Can no one do ANYTHING without Donna? (She's turning into The Doctor's sonic screwdriver. Just wave it at whatever impossible situation you're in and everything's fine.) Actually, after Harvey walked in on Louis panicking about his romantic problem and got him to drop everything to work on his and Mike's case, I was really hoping that when Donna came back to see Louis at the end that her news was that Louis' date was all planned because HARVEY had called in a favour and gotten Louis access to something great as a gesture of thanks. (But I know it was a crazy dream on my part. Expecting the people on this show to start demonstrating mutual respect in a real way is nothing but a set up for disappointment.) But no! Donna just did EVERYTHING! No surprises this episode. We knew Mike was going to have a hard time betraying Kevin, so no news there. We knew this deal was shaky. On the Innocence Project case, we knew the missing witness was more or less useless, so her being dead is not exactly a blow. I don't even remember what else happened, but nothing great. Or terrible. Or unexpected. You know, I wish this show would either take the plunge and BECOME the gripping legal drama it seems to want to be (or, dare I say, think it is?), or loosen up and go back to being fun, escapist entertainment. It takes itself so seriously, but has no grounds to, and it's just embarrassing.

Yeah, it sounds like they hammered Kevin with the hardest possible sentence for the crime he committed, then offered him an "out" if he turned on Sutter, which he refused to do since it would also incriminate his wife, so he's stuck serving it. So, yep, so far Mike is over-identifying with Kevin's situation, taking it too personally to be productive, and is on track to compromise his early release for Kevin's sake. I hope this case takes a less-predictable route! But I'll settle for interesting. It was nice to see Mike and Harvey working together again, doing what they do best: Irritating the crap out of people! That was about the only positive for me here. I didn't hate this episode, but I didn't like it either. Rachel's story doesn't seem to have anything to SAY about the Innocence Project or the justice system in general, it's just something to keep her occupied for a little while, which is disappointing but at least she has something to do besides pine for Mike. Jessica rocks at everything she does, which I appreciate, even though she's not doing much. Louis is a buffoon to the extent that it is painful to watch, but at least his story with the architect isn't over before it even really started. Basically, I had little to no positive or negative feelings about the majority of the episode. It's all just, meh. Once again, wardrobe seems to be the only department working on this show who still seems like they give a damn.

I'll say this for the episode: I didn't actively hate it! I actually felt interested in the machinations, which was nice. It helps that Mike and Harvey are finally working towards one purpose in a somewhat co-ordinated effort (which IMO is the grease the show needs to keep things running smoothly. Friction between Harvey and Mike makes the story unbearable), even if that purpose is bullshit. I agree, timimouse, that making the goal of the season "Get Mike out of prison!" is dumb and a big waste of potential. I am, for the first time this season, starting to feel a bit of optimism, though, about where it might be heading. Korsh has said he wanted Mike to serve his full sentence, and the way Mike is obviously uncomfortable betraying his roommate is making me wonder if we're not heading in a different direction. When Mike (and Harvey) actually learn the INFORMATION about the case they're helping with, and start to get the details of what is really going down, I can see Mike's "bleeding heart" causing him to maybe try to parlay his deal into one for Kevin, or reverse course and commit to helping Kevin instead of betraying him, seeing Kevin as a REAL victim of whatever his uncle? stepfather? I can't even remember... is doing, making him realize that there are other people who, unlike him, really don't deserve to be in prison. I don't want to get my hopes up, because this goddamn show crushes them every time. But for the very first time this season, I'm starting to see some possibilities for what they might be planning that don't make me want to throw my TV out the window. I'm braced for bitter disappointment, but guys? I think I'm in. I think I might actually want to see where this is going. Goddamn it.

This is amazing.

Oh good! Another season granted for the purpose of cleaning up the mess left of the previous season, that will undoubtedly just result in more mess! I don't want to give up on this show, guys! It used to give me SO MUCH enjoyment! But I don't know how much more of this garbage I can take!

Yep, as much as I have defended this show in the past, or stuck with it despite its downward spiral, this episode caused me more discomfort than enjoyment, and I just don't know what to think about where things are going. There are parts I like. Actually, there are lots of things I like. I like Jessica showing Whatshisface who's boss. I like the firm's uphill struggle to regain their status. I like Rachel on The Innocence Project, and think it's a great storyline for her and a great angle on the justice system for a legal drama to examine. I like Louis and the architect. I even like the friendship Mike has developed with his cellmate. I think if these things could just breathe and have space to BE the story, this show could be downright watchable. But all this unnecessary lying and infighting and manipulating and shouting and pointless swearing... it's just unbearable. It's like they have all the potential positives of the season swirling around this giant awful black hole of suck that is this weirdly antagonistic Harvey/Mike relationship, where people who should have a deep connection based on real friendship can't seem to help each other at all, and just squabble like babies every time they talk. It's SO unsatisfying. If they want to keep the heart of the show the Mike/Harvey "bromance," then there needs to be some warmth in the relationship, because whatever else is happening, the M/H partnership is what anchors the show. It's been deliberately written that way. So when that partnership is discordant, the whole show feels painful to watch. A few weeks ago, I brought up an interview where the showrunner said he was planning to bring the humour back this season. That has OBVIOUSLY not panned out. But in that same interview, he also said that he intended Mike to serve his full sentence, no tricks or shortcuts to get him out early. Which means that either this informant storyline is a massive, pointless detour, or the writers decided 3 episodes in to abandon their good ideas and go with whatever is cheap and easy. Because if they were to drop all this ridiculous "Get Mike out of prison!" melodrama, and just relax and explore the connections Mike is making in prison, and the way being inside has changed his relationships with Harvey and Rachel, and the way someone who knows the law extremely well and isn't afraid to confront injustice might affect the prison community, they might have something good on their hands. But this show seems pathologically afraid to dive deep. It just skims the surface of whatever story it chooses to tell and hopes the abundance of shouting, squabbling, and S-bombs gives the false impression that these storylines MEAN anything. They don't. And it drives me up the wall.

To be fair, it must be really difficult to be satirizing these two parties/conferences in a "neutral" or bipartisan way. There's this idea that in order to seem fair and balanced, you have to mock both sides equally. Problem is, the two parties are NOT providing equal levels of material! The GOP is eating itself alive, its nominee is making flat-out treasonous remarks, its upper-level representatives (senators, congressmen, sponsors) are boycotting the RNC, key figures are surprising the audience with speeches AGAINST the nominee, and the people who ARE showing up to the convention are the wackadoos who won't see reason because they have no idea what it looks like. You don't even need to make jokes about a situation like that, you just need to talk about it and it's sure to be entertaining! By comparison, the DNC, while it has its conflicts, seems mostly tame and reasonable. There is SOME sketchiness surrounding the nominee, sure, but not nearly on the level of what's happening with the GOP. Personally, I think Colbert and others in the media HAVE been applying about the same level of humour to both sides. But since the two sides are not on equally-respectable footing, it comes across as being disproportionate, even though the discrepency in the levels of discourse actually stems from the parties themselves, not the media or satirists. If just flat-out TALKING about the facts of these two conferences makes one of them seem like a total shitshow and the other a big love-fest tainted with some sour grapes, that's not the same thing as choosing to UNFAIRLY portray one side as being more reasonable than the other, that's just examining the truth of what's happening! IMO, expecting Colbert and the media to make Hillary SEEM as ridiculous and unhinged as Trump, or make the DNC SEEM like a disaster on the same level as the RNC, would be unfair and biased. There is not as much comedy to be mined from the DNC, and that's just the truth!

Ha! That was totally my first thought when Mike was walking through the prison! "Hey, is that the set from Oz? I hope Mike gets the transparent rotating cell!" But Jesus, I hope sets and cast members are the only things they're borrowing from Oz! The last thing this show needs is to get any darker. I'm a bit disappointed by this episode, mainly because in interviews after the last season (or half-season? I'm losing track), the showrunner said one of their goals for this season was to bring back the fun and levity from season one. He specifically said that sending Mike to prison SEEMED like it was going to be a downer, but that actually things would be lightening up while they reconnected with the comedy aspect of the series. I was so glad to hear this, because it's EXACTLY what the show needs (and it's great to hear showrunners acknowledge that kind of thing), but on that front, this episode failed big time. It looks like it's just more of the same, dumb "shocking" twists, awkward cursing, and pointless bickering as always. If their idea of levity is to have the characters randomly smoke weed as they continue to circle the drain, then my optimism for this season won't last long. However, this was a premiere, sort of a transitional episode. They've given themselves a chance to completely rebuild the show, even if they don't seem to really be jumping on that chance yet. If they can move forward from here in a way that leaves the old patterns of previous season behind, then things might turn out for the better. It is nice to see Mike getting called on his bullshit in a way that might actually change him (the frequent theme of prison shows is that prison is the place where you can no longer run from yourself. That might do him (and us) some good, as long as the angst doesn't get dragged out too long). And Harvey having to live knowing that someone ELSE, someone he cares about, is facing the consequences of his reckless mistakes, is a promising place story-wise for him. If the writers can make good on what they have set up, this season could be great. Unfortunately, it seems to be the pattern that Suits will set up interesting, promising character beats, and then fall back into old habits such that their changes don't really mean anything. I'm not judging this season until I actually see what it does, but I will admit that my optimism has slightly diminished after this premiere. Time will tell, I suppose!

Interesting. This show gave me a bad feeling from the start, simply because teaching/education is an overwhelmingly female-dominated profession, so it seems like a weird decision to make the protagonists both men. What's the point of a workplace comedy if you dismiss or ignore the perspectives of the people who actually make up the workforce? (Contrast this with TVLand's "Teachers," which is uneven, but truly celebrates the particular weirdnesses of a female-dominated workplace) And if that's what the content is like, it sounds like something I can comfortably skip!

Thanks, Joe. I appreciate that. They ARE rhetorical, and I did see some answers upthread, so I won't press you for info! What I really want to point out by posing these questions is how poorly the big action sequence was integrated narratively. What makes great battle scenes (like in LotR) really great is that they serve the story. There is a context in which the battle takes place, a real THING to win or lose, that the audience has to really care about in order to be invested in the battle. The CGI can be pure crap, but as long as the battle serves the story, the audience will be on board. But here, in TBoFA, all the story that was set into motion over the previous two films was dropped either before or during the battle, meaning that in this case, the STORY served the BATTLE. Everything that happened during the previous 6 hours of runtime had no narrative significance other than to put everyone in place to have a big battle scene. The stakes of the battle, the THING to win or lose, was barely established (The Arkenstone? The mountain? The gold? What was the prize here?), and we were never actually told who "won" it, and what this means for the characters we've come to care about. Which is frustrating and really disappointing! I know, looking at that featurette upthread, that production was rushed, making it up as they went along, and trying to cram as much work into a day as humanly possible, which explains the muddled storytelling and shoddy CGI... but were they not working with a script? Did they not have a story arc plotted out all the way to the end? What the hell happened here?!

Talk about taking your time to gather the enthusiasm to watch this. I just finished the trilogy today! Yes, there was a lot of filler, but I think the most honestly disappointing thing about this movie was the total lack of resolution. I know there are answers in the books, but from a purely movie-going perspective, the actual story of this trilogy was very thin and never actually arrived at a conclusion. So Thorin and company set out to reclaim their home, and take possession of the Arkenstone so that Thorin can take his rightful place as King Under the Mountain? Ok, I'm on board with that. But then all these armies show up with very vague goals and allegiances, and then yet more armies show up to pile on, and it's not entirely clear who won or how. Then the Arkenstone ends up in Bard's hands, and then Thorin and his kin are killed... so.... what? Did the dwarves reestablish their home under the mountain? Who became king? What happened to the Arkenstone? Did the Laketown people keep it, or was it returned to the dwarves? Did the elves get their gems back, and did the Laketown people rebuild or find a new home, and who facilitated all of that on the dwarves' end, and what are relations like now between these factions? And what about Bilbo getting the ring? If Gandalf knew he had it, and how corrupting it could be, why did he seem totally unconcerned that Bilbo was far enough under its influence to lie about not having it, and just let him hang on to it like a shiny souvenir? It feels like way too much pointless fighting happened, the story of the dwarves' quest was never wrapped up, and there is STILL a huge gap to bridge between this story and LotR. And for all the padding that was added, was the entire story of The Hobbit actually told?

"To be continued?" Really? A two-hour finale is not enough to wrap things up? Good. I was hoping we'd get a pregnancy storyline. About time this show started introducing some babies! Ok, the violence was A LOT of fun, but I'm still not seeing the fundamental issues being addressed that make this show so frustrating to watch. Not sure I'll be back next season, but I guess we'll see! One question: If there are enough Wessen in law enforcement to staff an entire precinct, then why all the to-do about how the regular justice system can't understand or apply to Wessen crime? Why use this shadowy Wessen Council who never seems to do anything about the day-to-day Wessen-on-Wessen or Wessen-on-human violence (thereby leaving the "Wessen secret" open to exposure) when there are loads of cops who understand what is happening and why, and could handle things quietly? Why does Team Grimm have to work outside the system to handle Wessen matters when the system seems pretty well equipped to take that on? The show is undermining its own premise, and I can't tell if it means to or not!

Ha! That is exactly what I came in here to post. This season has demonstrated SUCH a lousy grasp of how time actually works (they treat the mechanics of time rather contemptuously, actually), but this was ridiculous. Also, Savage's goal was to "erase time?" What on earth could that possibly even mean, and what could it get him? Utter nonsense. Furthermore, it bugs me that the show consistently treats an entire year like a specific destination. "Oh, she's being held captive in 1944! We'll just go to 1944 and spend 365 days scouring every inch of an entire city until she eventually arrives there!" Give me a break. I would think this show was written for children if it didn't require you to keep up with Arrow in order to follow what was going on.

Thanks, attica. That's an interesting departure! As much as Corky was on to Pine and had to go for Pine's sake, I have to wonder if Jed did the right thing for herself by throwing Corky under the bus. Hired amoral killer he may be, but he did seem to genuinely care about her, and was probably in a better position to protect her if things went south than Pine is. Also, I'm not quite prepared to say that it was okay Pine killed him because Roper would have anyway. The only reason Roper was gunning for Corky is because Pine deliberately and falsely set him up to look like a traitor. I do appreciate the way that the writing does not let Pine off the hook for his actions. He decided to discredit Corky, knowing it would likely get the man killed, and he ends up having to kill him with his own hands. He personally napalms a village to impress Roper, and he's the one who has to see the melted remains of the woman who didn't get out in time, and face her family. No intermediaries, no keeping his hands clean, no room for denial. It's the exact opposite of Roper, who has people around him at all times to accept the consequences for his choices. Well played, Night Manager. Well played.