Wayward Son

I think so too. We will know after this season, but I wouldn’t be surprised if 11 appearances becomes Cas/Misha’s new normal. It seems that last year he (and his agent) managed to negotiate for the “And” credit (which is supposed to be a big deal) and I wouldn’t be surprised if that came with a higher per episode wage, which the network balanced out by taking two episodes off him. So Misha would be getting (as an example I have no clue of his actual wage) $100,000 for 11 episodes instead of $100,000 for 13 episodes. Well, I am a major Cas fan so of course I’d love him in more episodes, but in this particular instance I was talking about the practicalities of the show rather than expressing any bitterness :)

I don’t think it’s ever been formally stated but with one exception (Castiel who had 14 appearances in S5) no character has ever gone over 13 appearances. Several have hit the 13 mark (off the top of my head - Castiel in Seasons 10 and 11, Bobby in S7 and Mary last season) or come close (Crowley appeared in 12 episodes of S10-S12 and Castiel appeared in 11 episodes last year). This strongly suggests to me that there is an upper limit of 13 episodes for any character not named Sam and Dean. Why that is I don’t know. It could simply be a creative choice - they don’t want any character other than one of the two leads for more than that, or it could be a financial issue. The network aren’t willing to pay for more appearances than that, especially to regulars, who I imagine cost considerably more per episode than random guest of the weekend or recurring characters. Whatever the reason it seems obvious to me that there is a 13 episode upper limit and I’d be highly surprised if any character ever exceeds that and that’s what I was saying in my post over in bitch vs Jerk. Whether he lives in the bunker or not his total appearances won’t change. *For clarity in case I’m misusing terms I classify characters as. The Leads = Sam and Dean Series Regulars = Those with formal contracts with the show and are given a “Starring” credit for the episodes they appear in. This season that would be Jack, Lucifer and Castiel. Crowley had this status for S10-12 and Ruby and Bella had it in S3. Recurring Characters = Those who appear in multiple episodes of the show, but haven’t got contracts and are billed as guest stars when they appear. This would include the likes of Bobby (I believe Jim was offered regular status but declined preferring to remain flexible and not tied to a contract), Mary, Jody etc. One off characters = They’re just that. Those who only appear the once usually the victim of the week or a local coroner etc.

Even if he were to move in the bunker Castiel won’t be in every episode. They’d find some reason to write him out be it he’s on an errand, or the brothers are simply out on a case while Castie is back in the bunker. I’d be very surprised if Castiel is in more than the 11 episodes he got last year, 13 at a push.

The difference between Benny and Lenore IMO is that Lenore’s behaviour was portrayed as somewhat self serving. She didn’t stop hunting humans because of some great love for them. She stopped because hunters had made her kind practically extinct, and she felt the only way, for the few vampires remaining, to survive was to feed on cattle so there would be no deaths to draw a hunters attention. Benny, on the other hand, apparently turned good because he fell in love with a girl. It doesn’t fit within the general vampire lore of the show IMO and even if one wants to argue it does fit it was a rather cheesy and over done trope to boot. I’m also one of those who dislike Benny’s overall narrative role in s8. He was brought in to make Sam look bad via contrast and this is quite obvious from the fact when the brothers reconciliation began he was quickly written off, bar one final appearance to kill him off and wrap his story up, because he had served his purpose.

Ah OK that makes sense :) . Thanks for clarifying! I think the reason that I never made that connection is the fact that IMO this line of thinking is quickly refuted there and then. When he asks Dean where was he when needed to hear his advice Dean (rightly) points out that he was there and all Cas had to do was come to him. Cas concedes Dean's point but states that he feels he's put himself in too deep now. So I feel narratively Dean's retort was meant to convey the show itself did not consider Dean responsible in anyway. Likewise, the fact that any time Castiel brings it up again after things cool down i.e the born again identity, season 8 etc he always refers to his mistakes and never tries to spread the blame around is also meant to show us he took Deans retort to heart. So overall I'd say that while yes the show states that Castiel thought he was doing right by Dean (leaving him with to live a normal life) the onus was still on him to approach Dean for much needed advice. The fact he didn't approach Dean and the whole thing became a mess is presented as Being on Cas (and rightly so) and not on Dean, but MMV :)

Sorry for the random quoting of a post from three years ago! I'm currently rewatching S10 and reading the episode threads. When exactly did the show try to present Dean as the blame for Cas' dark path in s6? I know a lot of fans see Sam pushing the blame on Dean during their talk in Fallen Idols, which is why I'm not asking about Sam, but I genuinely don't remember Cas or the narrative remotely blaming Dean for Cas' actions. I'm not saying they didn't blame him. I just can't remember it.

I was literally just about to post this LOL. He's awesome! I also want to visit this bar :D

I was really just joking anyway. Even though I'm not a big Dean fan even I don't really like the idea of him being killed as a being he's always hated the idea of being on a long term basis :) But yeah the Empty, minus a Jack awakening, sounds like the best bet for Sam and Dean. Otherwise they'll just spend eternity being forced to resurrect because Death!Billie and other beings are too lazy to deal with things themselves haha

Make him Deanmon again and killed by the first blade! Then he'll go to the empty and receive that eternal sleep/rest. Provided an archangel nephilims doesn't decide to consider Dean his surrogate dad ;)

I've never considered Claire's anger at Castiel as assassination of the character. I've always thought the depiction of Cas' possession of Jimmy in The Rapture was portrayed as rather shady. Since he essentially used the threat of possessing Claire to get Jimmy to agree. However, in Castiel's defence he had just returned from a re-education in heaven, which we now know to be brain washing by Naomi, and thus was in a state of mind where obedience to heaven came above all. A state of mind where one man and his family weren't even worth considering next to the bigger picture. It took the words of Dean in Lucifer Rising to help him break free of that compulsion from heaven. I believe Castiel's craving of red meat was a physical craving of the body he hosts rather than anything to do with Jimmy's soul. We know that under normal circumstances Castiel's grace is enough to sustain the body and repress such urges, but we also know, from when he was human for 9A, that when that grace isn't present that he needs to eat like everyone else. Famine simply brought those bodily cravings to the surface. The dialogue I was referring to is the following Which IMO shows that there is no brain activity beyond Cas' presence. In addition to this, the manner of his death in Lucifer Rising and Swan Song is heavily implied as the same. On both occasions he is killed by an archangel (Raphael in Lucifer Rising and Lucifer in SwanSong) and while we only saw the Swan Song death on scene we know from their discussion with Chuck in Sympathy For the Devil that Cas exploded and in a manner that left chunks of his flesh in Chuck's hair. Why would Jimmys soul survive the first death in this manner, but not the second?

I knew as soon as they announced

You’re right! He definitely was in the middle of asking her when she sapped him back.

I forgot to ask; what about last nights episode gave you hope that he’ll get a win?

I’m talking about how his great scenes have been just about him serving as the Winchester’s cheer section. He killed Billy not for himself but because they mean oh so much to the word (speaking of great job of undermining yet another fucking Cas action Yockey. Sorry Cas you didn’t succeed you just made her bigger and stronger than ever -hard core eye roll-) and then he gets tossed about and beaten just so he can proclaim his love for him before Crowley comes to his rescue. Dabb has made it very clear the only thing Cas is good for is cheerleading Sam and Dean. When he tries to do stuff independently it always goes to shit because of course he’s useless outside of cheerleading. He can’t even kill a foe by himself anymore.

Fair enough. I don’t see it as a win, but I can see why you would :) . And Dean is also family to Sam. That didn’t stop Dean fans (and Jensen) from complaining when they felt Dean was only there to play nursemaid and cheer Sam in 8B.

It’s not that I can’t stand seeing Cas making mistakes it’s the fact he’s not allowed to make up for them. For instance in season 4 Sam made several major mistakes. However, he was allowed to clean up some of those mistakes. He brought Lucifer into the world through his hubris but then was the one to put him back in the cage. I don’t want to get into a big Swan Song debate since I know it’s controversial in fandom. I’m just saying the writers did attempt to let Sam make up for Sam’s mistake. On the other hand, Dabb has not allowed this! He’s just piled mistake after mistake on Cas without reprieve. Maybe I’m missing something, but do you know of any occasions Dabb has allowed Cas a win? Or presented him as important outside of cheerleading the Winchester’s and talking about how much he cares for them and sees them as important to the world?

Finals are in! We kept the 0.6! A slight downtick in viewers from 1.74 to 1.71, but nothing to worry about :)

My issue isn’t the actual bond between Dean and Castiel. I am aware that it exists and view it as a friendship, although others are more than welcome to view it more romantically than I do. However, what I’m complaining about is the fact that since S11 Dabb and Co have been telling us that it is the only worthwhile thing about Castiel. Since S11 they’ve been consistently both showing (e.g. through the contrast between important Dean needing to be revived while unimportant Cas should have stayed dead and got revived by a fluke) and telling (the angel talking about how Sam and Dean are the real heroes and Cas is not) how unimportant to the overall narrative they regard him. Not to mention making him responsible for most of the main issues faced by the brothers for the last 2.5 seasons. I get that mains will always be more prominent than secondary characters, but I have never seen a show make such a point of trying to tell us “character A and B are our heroes and Character C is a pleb without any real importance”. I don’t know if it’s just Dabb dislikes Castiel, or it’s intended to be an aggressive dig at the “Castiel is a third lead crowd” i.e. he’s determined to show us “He is /not/ a lead... these two are our leads”. Either way it bloody sucks and needs to stop. Let him be a secondary character without making a point of how unimportant he should be considered. I think the closest analogy to my issue with Cas being only considered important in the context of supporting Dean is this; I’m sure not every Dean girl dislikes his relationship with Sam. I’m sure there are many who quite like it. However, that didn’t stop them from feeling annoyed when they felt 8B was telling us that Dean’s only useful role was acting as nurse to the more heroic Sam. Relationships with other characters are fine, they’re what makes a good show IMO, but characters should also be considered relevant and badass in their own right too. Really? Because according to Yockey and his mouthpiece Billy only Sam and Dean have work to do.

Least favourite episode of S13 so far! More details over in Bitch vs Jerk! A good note, hmmmmm, nice continuity with s6 I guess.

Putting this in here to be safe, since there's an element of "vs" to it! If it belongs in Unpopular opinions please let me know Mods and I'll move it. Wow, just wow, just as I thought the Dabb administration's utter contempt for Castiel couldn't become any clearer this episode came along. Hats off to Glynn and Yockey, because between them, they made sure to let us know how utterly pointless Castiel's existence on this show really is. So to refresh, when Castiel dies this is allowed and his revival is a complete fluke as opposed to a part of the grand design. The Guardian of the Empty's reaction is simply "What are you doing awake? Ugh fine you're so annoying I'll shove you back to earth to get you out of my hair". On the other hand, when Dean dies it's a dramatic event, reapers run screaming through the veil and the new Death herself appears to tell Dean his life is oh so important and he will be resurrected because he has work to do! Unlike that utter loser Castiel who is completely expendable, which might I add they also made sure to point out in the Dabb penned The Devil in the Details. Then there's the direct parallels in the words the characters use. When Dean desperately speaks of needing a win a friend of his is revived, while when Castiel says he needs a win his reward is to die a pointless death during the next episode he appears in. I suppose I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Cas has a semi useful purpose as heroic Dean's cheerleader and I'm sure the Dean girls will love that, but not this viewer. I care about Castiel in his own right rather than as simply one part of a ship or friendship. Congratulations Dabb administration with special mentions to Yockey, Glynn, Berens and Dabb himself! You've succeeded in making me go from excited about season 13 to seriously contemplating quitting in the space of 40 minutes.

Unrounded ratings are out: Supernatural ...................... 0.596 ... (0.601 ... 0.590) Arrow ................................. 0.453 ... (0.472 ... 0.435) So right in the middle so I’d say we will most likely maintain the 0.6 :) Meanwhile Arrow is clinging on to that 0.5 by the skin of its teeth!

I doubt Cas will make a big difference (and I say that as a big Cas fan). I find ratings are similar with and without him and the group that will only watch Cas episodes is very, very small and most Cas fans watch the ones without him. IMO the only time we will truly know how much, if any, affect Cas’ presence has on the overall ratings will be when the show writes the character out for good leaving Cas centric fans with no reason to watch.

Another 0.6! If we can hold it this week then that only leaves next week left of Fall Sweeps right?

I haven’t seen yet, but I’d assume that his wings are still clipped? None of the angels, except possibly Lucifer, have been capable of teleporting since the fall at the end of s8?