Wayward Son

I’m not looking to get into a bitch vs jerk style debate about who is better at what. I’m conceding from the start Dean’s the better mechanic. However, werent we shown a few scenes in season 3 where Dean taught Sam about fixing cars? He meant it in preparation for Sam having to do it on his own once Dean was dead. While I’d say Dean would fix a car more efficiently and expertly than Sam. I personally think “Sam couldn’t fix a car to save his life” is a bit of an exaggeration.

Well he actually left Sam and Dean in charge of the universe. Dabb’s narrative has consistently been that Cas is pretty inconsequential to the grand scheme of things and should be considered the brothers lackey if he’s lucky enough to even be that.

And I don’t want it for Cas since the show never handles the follow up to dark Cas properly due to his non lead status so you Dean fans are welcome to it lol

If cos of them is going dark side it’ll be Cas.

Nah just a spelling error. Probably a result of the fact I’m currently reading Wheel of Time which features a character called Asmodean LOL

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/netflix-sabrina-the-teenage-witch-series-aunt-zelda-miranda-otto-1202705766/ And that’s the main cast sorted Kiernan Shipka as Sabrina Spellman Lucy Davis as Hilda Spellman Miranda Otto as Zelda Spellman Chance Perdomo as Ambrose Michelle Gomez as Miss. Wardell / Madam Satan Jaz Sinclair as Rosalind Walker What does everyone think of the casting so far?

Sam's guidance, Jack's own reading up on things and general interaction with others and since the show seemed to credit a certain level of intelligence in the womb to him also the initial influence of Kelly and Castiel.

I think Jack needed Sam's guidance to both protect him from harmful influences such as Asmodean and to help him learn about the world around him, but that's all Sam can do is teach him how to do good, but he can not force him into it. I don't really see Dean as having much to do with the development of Jack to be honest. He largely rejected adopting a parental role to Jack due to his belief Jack was evil and the cause of Cas' death. By the time he began to think differently it was too late to have much involvement as Jack then disappeared (end of Tombstone) and briefly returned to them before being thrown into Apocalypse World.

I'd say if Jack turns bad then the responsibility lies with Jack and not with anyone else. He's been portrayed as knowing the difference between right and wrong and if he chooses to go down a dark path (and by that I mean go full on evil rather than killing someone with his powers by accident) then that's on Jack.

They could have wanted us to believe that at first, but that doesn't necessarily mean they intended it to be that way. It's a pretty common device to introduce a character and make them look shady through things such as omnious phasing, the odd suspicious seeming glance in a bid to lead the audience into believing one thing and then revealing nope they're actually good. I'm not ruling out the possiblity of Jack turning out evil, but IMO if he does it'll be because of Jack's own choices not an evil gene inherited from Lucifer. I also don't believe that all angels are assholes. Samandriel (What's up Tiger Mommy and Torn and Frayed) seemed pretty decent as did Inias (Reading is Fundamental). Anna was also initially rather decent and caring of humanity. Of course she did turn A-hole later on when she attempted to kill Sam, but it could be argued she had been messed up by months of being tortured by the angels in heaven.

When did Lucifer touch a bible? I recall Jack doing so in ironically enough a BuckLemming episode later, but not Lucifer? But to answer your question I’d consider the bible burning to be bad writing and the instance of non burning to make more sense. As I said IMO within the SN universe Lucifer is still considered an archangel and we’ve never been told his fall affected his grace / inherent nature. So there’s no reason a bible should burn from his touch. As I said I consider Lucifer to be evil due to him choosing to use his free will to make evil choices not because Guck created him as some special species with an ‘evil’ gene.

Bad BuckLemming writing. They wanted to throw in a plot point that would make the characters question Jack’ s existance and want for a easy visual without consideration of the long term consequences. That is pretty par for the course with BuckLemming.

I’m not sure if this post is directed at me, or just general thoughts, but in case it’s directed at me I never said Lucifer was good and/or misunderstood. I agree that Lucifer is pretty much the worst bad guy. The point I was making is that IMO Lucifer is this bad guy because of his CHOICES. As you said when Guck designed the archangels their mission was to love humanity and Lucifer chose to reject this mission and instead set out to destroy humanity. So we are in basic agreement that Lucifer is worse than a lot of the other villains and someone like Jesse. Where we might disagree is the consequence of these choices. IMO Lucifer is the worst of the worst because he freely chose to hate humanity. He acts the way he does because he chose to act that way. I’m not excusing his choice and saying he’s just misunderstood or anything else. If anything I’m pinning more of the blame on Lucifer by stating my belief Lucifer freely chose to hate humanity and seek their destruction. If I were some sort of Lucifer apologist it would actually be easier to try and argue “Poor Lucifer. He did all those things because Guck designed him to. He can’t help the way Guck made him”. So with that in mind I don’t believe Lucifer has some sort of “evil gene” that he passed on to Jack. IMO the show has never told us Lucifer is inherently different to the other archangels. He too is made of a celestial wave of intention just like them. The only difference is he chose to follow a dark path in life. As a result, Jack is a half arch-angel / half human the same as a child of Michael, Gabriel or Raphael would have been. It is now up to Jack whether he chooses to follow in his fathers footsteps or choose a different path for himself.

What nickname?

Personally, I don’t think Supernatural has set up the lore that son of Satan = worse than son of demon. In other shoes, movies or general folk lore certainly Lucifer has been portrayed as the most vile of supernatural creatures and with darker DNA than a regular demon. In Supernatural however he is an arch-angel and hasn’t been presented as any different to the others, aside from the fact he chose to rebel against God, but that is a distinction based on his actions and not on his inherent nature. Based on the lore of the verse biologically there is no reason why a child of Lucifer raised away from Lucifer’s influence would be any worse than say a son of Michael raised away from Michael. They’d both be the son of archangels who are genetically the same species, but had fathers who made different choices in life. Like I said over the years I’m sure there have been other shows that have portrayed Lucifer as demonic and even worse than a common demon. However, I don’t believe that’s the case with Supernatural’s lore where he is presented as an arch-angel the same as Michael, Gabriel and Raphael only one who made the decision to rebel unlike the others.

Fair enough that you didn’t want him to be good. I didn’t want Benny to be good either so I can relate to that annoyance and certainly won’t tell you to change what you wish :). However, in regards to the bit in bold I am not sure what distinction you’re trying to make. Both Jack and Jesse have questionable lineage - ones half demon and the other is half arch-angel. However, neither had anything to do with that biological parent. Jesse was raised by his adopted parents. Jack on the other hand was primarily influenced by Kelly and Cas in the womb (if one wants to believe his time in the womb impacted jack’s morality in a special way) and he has been under the guidance of Sam since after birth. Personally, I wouldn’t class either as more supernaturally ‘tainted’ than the other and both of them have had little to no contact with the questionable parent.

That’s a good point about Jesse’s half human nature making him easily hid from demons! Then he’s definitely the closest comparison to Jack the show has given us to date. It was a Grigori which fed on Amelia and the others not a nephilim.

Actually, if we are taking into account precedents then I feel I should point out that the only comparable scenario to date, i.e. the anti-Christ Jesse, who was the son of a demon, was also portrayed as morally good. At least we haven’t been told he turned bad after he disappeared for his adopted parent’s sake* So if Benny fans want to use Lenore (I assume it’s Lenore you’re referring to) as justification for Benny’s cuddly nature then it’s only fair they also take into account Jesse to explain Jack’s cuddly nature ;) ETA: The Show wasn’t very clear in the biology of Jesse unlike Jack who is explicitly stated to be half human and half angel. Jesse mom was a virgin IIRC and it could be argued she was quite literally a surrogate for a 100% demonic child which arguably makes him even more corrupt than Jack who at least is half human.

Ah, OK thanks for clarifying! For some reason I'd always just assumed it was a reference to his sweet tooth shown in the first episode :)

Didn't we see him eating a cinnamon roll during the first episode of the season?

I think I saw some spec about it being Cas on Twitter. And yes I said from the start I thought it would be Dean. Since he’s an angel the descriptor “man” wouldn’t truly fit Cas and it seemed clear to me Misha wouldn’t be in the episode since he was Home while it filmed. Others thought I was too quick to dismiss the possibility of it being Cas IIRC. @catrox14 ETA: Plus he’s appeared in episode 12 and 13, will appear in episode 14 and will at least voice appear in episode 16*. I’d be surprised if Misha/Cas appeared in episode 15 to make it five straight episodes. * I know Jared talked about Misha recording for the animation voices, but I’m not sure if it’s been confirmed he appears in the live portions?

So my thoughts that Cas/Misha won't be in the episode and thus not the holy man is pretty much confirmed :)

I actually agree with your post. I should have clarified my complaint was more about how the writers handled Castiel's absence. IMO the general set up of this season i.e. Castiel was in trouble, but the brothers didn't know it made their lack of Cas worry make more sense than season 8 when they had the brothers know he was in danger. So I suppose my comment is more along the lines of I think the Dabb administration has handled Misha/Cas' necessary off screen time better than Carver handled it in the past :)

Yes Castiel told them that, but the brothers clearly didn't believe that as shown by their reaction to his disappearance and the conversation that immediately followed. IMO it is pretty obvious from this conversation that they knew something was wrong with Castiel and rather than showing us the brothers trying to do something about it the following episode doesn't so much as give him a mention and ends with them LARPing and making silly braveheart speeches. I've never been the biggest fan of LARP due to the tonal dissonance between it and Torn and Frayed. I honestly wasn't looking to start a debate. I was simply saying that for me personally nothing about the brothers response to Castiel's absence this season could be deemed offensive. Especially when I think back to how the show has handled his absence in the past. Others are of course free to see their response to his disappearance in Torn and Frayed a lot more understandable than I do :)

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