Affogato

I wondered about that, too...Betty eventually feeling as if the relationship wasn't progressing. Now, of course, distracted by Polly and so on, she hasn't noticed, but later it becomes noticeable in some way and is confronted. It plays into him being a little distant from the people around him, the narrative voice.

I thought that was fantastic. She is really becoming truly independent. Maybe she can escape the Archie/Betty triangle after all.

The Blossoms do live in the Gothic part of town.....

Okay, what is amazing is that because of the power of transformative fandom we would sit next to the couch and watch Veronica Mars and see a totally different television show. My thing is that it isn't a romance, it is basically a hero's quest. Think Buffy the vampire slayer, except that Buffy, before she was hit with the geas stick, was essentially Lilly and one of the themes of Buffy is that women being women is a strength, she gathers the scoobies and they keep her alive. Veronica, also a quest, but her personality is made of up things that are usually associated with men. Which really pisses people off, Nancy Drew was fairly masculine and gets castrated a little more every time she's revived. You seem to be watching well, Veronica, I mean Elena, nice girl, smart and girlish, horrible things happen with her family. She takes responsibility past her years and then meets these two brothers. Both Vampires, but one is trying not to be a vampire, Duncan, I mean Stephan, and ...well, the actress flees as soon as her contract is over, t but we know she will pick Damon, or ...well, Logan, the exciting one...well, I hope you see the comparison. I watched it, for at least the first five years, a little less regularly for the rest, but a romance, a different story. Not as good a story, I think. Frankly, what did they ever have in common? In mkat, what do they do? Veronica may end up having to join his group of Navy peopoe, for him, but is this anything she wants? Is he even going to try to be part of her life? If you cared about the characters maybe think that they could be still so much better off with someone else.

OK, sorry, I misspoke... And the PI thing is also canonical, I get that, in the movie/books she is stuck with it. (it seems like a dead end job to me and to Keith). It is more dangerous than being in the fbi or being a policeman and considerably duller, if you think about it. However the fan fiction I have dipped into has her change the directory of her life, not because it is what Logan wants, it is what she wants (she is too stressed, or doesn't like rules--I doubt these things, by the way), but it is the thing that allows them to be together. Some of the fan fiction handles it well, some not, as is the way of the world. It seems to be a pretty common theme, although I haven't read all that much. It happens to some extent in the book, Logan has this one thing that is working for him, Veronica has a wide range of things (police, lawyer, PI, FBI, barrista....anything, really) she can do and she realizes she will have to adjust her life to what he is doing and what he needs because she can be flexible and he can't. It is her realization at the end of MKAT, she accepts this and they will he together. (I wonder what happens when he is sent around the world on his shore leaves, but we likely won't see that). I'm not unsympathetic to Logan, I have some separation issues that the show has allowed me to explore, probably why I'm here. However, I think the interesting thing about the show was the variety of different relationships she had, and I don't think the one she had with Logan was the most important or even the second most important.

Just wanted to soften my last message a little. I'm sure Logan was loyal and loved Veronica. It is kind of a tragedy, as it happened. My unpopular opinion is that Veronica was not a bitch to him, she really tried to work on the relationship, forgave him for a lot of things, not acknowledging her, not spending time with her except in bed, hiring a stalker bodyguard without telling her (I can't emphasize enough how horrible I feel that would have been for Veronica, who had just been drugged and attacked in a parking lot.) She has forgiven him for buying the rape drug, , for the salt lick, for the bullying, for the lying, for burning the pool, for Kendall...but she remembers these things, and I think with his soujourn with Madison, well, finding Logan with Kendall is recent and raw. Max's case made her really think about honesty. Logan had been dishonest all year, protecting himself because he did things but thought she'd be mad at him. She feels that if she learns all these things she won't get mad, it will help with the problems they've had. It is a healthy impulse. Maybe he was right, the Madison thing, she would have been mad but when Madison met her in the lingerie store it might not have been a game changer, Veronica could have dismissed Madison as a bitch. Now the popular opinion is that Veronica was trying to trick him? Anyway, that was Logan's opinion I think. My impression is that Veronica was a loyal girlfriend who truly loved Logan enough to forgive him for things that she would have forgiven no one else, to actively make herself vulnerable to him. I think Logan was a messed up guy who reflexively lied and expected the worst and didn't really do anything supportive at all for Veronica in the small ways you would actually expect in a relationship (Yes, picked her up when she was unconscious in a parking lot, but that is different and you'd expect he'd do it for anyone, really). I think the popular opinion is she should have realized being a PI stressed him out and stopped, concentrated on school, let him buy her gifts and soothed him. Maybe he needed that, it just wasn't in her character and my unpopular opinion is that wasn't a bad thing. Jason Dohring makes a wonderful guy in a romance, it is likely sad that he hasn't done it more, but Veronica as a character is something almost unique.

I keep on losing this message, I'll try one more time. Logan gives the speech 'less pain now' and breaks up with Veronica over something minor, the voice mail. There is an article on the internet that says that people with separation anxiety will do that, mentions voicemail, maybe the writers got the idea from that. But, separation anxiety, he can't let her go. So, Madison talks to Veronica in the lingerie store. Veronica feels violated by Madison and Logan set her up to be violated by Madison, actually sex with someone when they were broken up likely had nothing to do with it. It hurts Veronica and she thinks 'logan was right, this is going to keep on hurting me and keep on hurting Logan' and she breaks up with Logan. This has been building up all season, it is earned. He saves her when she's drugged again and he sets a guard on her, without telling her, she is scared to death and then assaulted by the guard as he drags her out of the fight. Logan says 'I would do it again because I don't want to feel the pain of you being hurt.' He didn't do it for her, he did it for himself, and it was horrible for her and violating. She still is trying to figure out how to stay with him. Logan liked Hannah and Parker, but he can have the perfect relationship because no big need, no emotional investment. So he goes out with Parker. Mac tells Veronica that Logan is 'sweet'. Veronica is roped into going to the party and sees all of Logans friends, sees that Logan is telling them Parker is his girlfriend (remember in witchita linebacker when he didn't tell them Veronica was his girlfriend). She thinks 'Sad, but I was right, he's happier and I'm going to get over it. She hooks up with Piz, and tells mac that it is nice, less painful. She shares activities with Piz, not just sex. Because Logan and Veronica have the kind of relationship where it feels good when it stops, but Logan can't let it go because separation anxiety, so he acts out. Need is not love. I think they did love and understand each other and genuinely were friends but were completely incompatible as lovers and I think Logan was incapable of love at the time, he never learned about relationships from his parents, had poor judgement about people, ;had lost everyone, had bad coping skills, like drinking and setting things on fire. Dick. I think Veronica puts up with Dick because she knows he is all Logan has. This can be proof the ghb wasn't the issue. She doesn't forgive Dick but she isn't mean enough to take him away from Logan, and maybe not mean enough to take Logan away from Dick. Shared history.

Well there is the old vampire saw that she would naturally choose the kids first because in 80 years she can bury them and move on, when will she get another chance at this, and then again technically they weren't her children and they were staying with their actual father. In reality, though, people do have lives in addition to having children and there was a lot going on with her other loved ones at this time, some of which she was pretty sure she was also going to outlive. Children are part of life, not instead of life. This show always seemed to move along, pretty talking head to pretty talking head, emotional moment with only short term continuity. At the beginning it didn't matter if they looked too old to be in high school because there was a sense of unreality to the whole thing. Stephan and Damon seemed beyond redemption, but Damon in particular, and for all of the you know, whining and tearing of hair, nothing seemed to happen with those storylines. Still this episode, like the rest of the show, was played with a straight face and I bought it even when it didn't make sense. I wish they had done more with Bonnie, Matt and Tyler rather than brining in Enzo and I almost forgot Damon and Stephan's mother. The afterlife seemed like the afterlife in Kelley Armstrong's Otherworld series, I wonder if that is part of the Vampire Diary books or if Plec just picked it up to give the happy ending? In that case supernaturals did end up in different afterlives, sometimes, but I'm pretty sure this lot just were in a reconstructed Mystic Falls forever. At the end of last season I hoped Damon would be a batman avenger sort of figure, trying for redemption, and I'm sorry it didn't happen. Can someone please go get Kai and put him somewhere else? These pocket universes have got to be unstable. Klaus probably is bipolar. He really seemed like one of the few you could actually like, but we were told he was crazyevil. He likely needed blood laced with lithium.

Jughead has been abandoned by his mother, who has taken his younger sibling and moved away. His father is ...well...Jughead doesn't need any more rejection right now from anyone. Apparently blackmail is what Veronica's family does, which kind of does give her the right.

More like the evil Willow that Bombadil saves them from near the beginning of the trip.

She has to be dead or Elena can't come back. I suppose we'll see her with Enzo. I still kind of dislike Enzo, when did he suddenly become so wonderful?

I watched this on the CW app, so late to the party. One moment that struck me was Jughead and Betty, fresh faced, both of them, innocent, hair pulled back, looking up at the looming, dark asylum. Betty's pulling away from the kiss would be the kind of thing that might put Jughead off for a year or two, romantically speaking. I wonder where he is sleeping now? Just as an aside. He certainly seemed to need to be invited to breakfast. Josie's YA rant is explained, in part, by her narcissistic and abusive father, but she is still not very nice. Maybe later. Angel still has the worst parents, remember the show where Fred's parents come to see her and everyone tries to protect her from them. These parents aren't good, though. It isn't, for me, so much that Archie is a dullard or a dud, it is that so far he is supposed to be friends with Betty and Jughead, long time friends, but appears to know nothing about their lives or challenges. He doesn't even seem to have any sympathy for his dad. He seems totally self absorbed, and teenagers can be self absorbed, but everyone except Archie and Josie is concerned about what happens to other people. We've seen Josie's issues, but Archie's haven't surfaced yet. Still enjoying this show, but a real surfacing of the classic love triangle could threaten my enjoyment.

I never realized how much Piz looks like Duncan. I think these pictures are chosen for maximum resemblance, though.

Flip phones still exist, although the rich kids would all have had iphones.

The oldest bullying trick in the book is some popular guy asks you out, maybe to a dance (think Carrie) and then at the dance something humiliating happens (pigs blood, you make out and the whole group comes in and mocks you) and everyone makes fun of you and then they share the video, if they can get one. I don't think she thought he'd installed the cameras, at least on reflection, but it was a pretty reasonable bet he was using the cameras. Logan was an idiot for doing it, he has poor social instincts, and we know he was completely sincere. I'm not sure if he ever understands it.

Well, late to the party, still. I think Duncan and Lilly both really don't trust a thing Celeste says. He's been drugged. He actually, I think, loves Veronica. It is easy for me to think the distinctions could be blurred.

I get the impression that the system is corrupt :-) I know it is a shock. It wasn't necessarily the money, it was the control.

I don't think Cassidy would necessarily have symptoms, or be checked unless there was a reason to check him for that specifically, like he told someone he was being raped by his coach, which he didn't. The timeline confuses me. Lilly and Veronica, I think, are the same age but Veronica is a year behind in school because her birthday is right before the school year starts, or something. My initial impression was that Lilly was killed and Shelleys party was in December, but that doesn't seem like enough time for her to be bullying. It is hard to tell because the weather is so unchanging. Maybe Lilly is killed in Veronica's sophomore year, early October, by November her father is ousted, her mother leaves, Duncan is sent to the loony bin, Veronica 'ignores' Logan to help sell there stuff and move into a smaller apartment and start the business, her father being out of town bail jumping a lot. Logan responds by spending a lot of time bullying her and rallying the troops against her. She is actually pretty busy outside of school. Then I think Shelly's party is in May or early June. She spends the summer working in her father's business, and has started to pick up some PI skills, which she is using well enough so that Cliff is bringing her cases. Then comes the start of the show, Veronica's Junior year. Duncan is back, heavily medicated. Cassidy could have been 15, I think, depending on when his birthday is. I think he steals Macs clothes so she won't go anywhere.

It tracked for me, Mom is really possessive. But perhaps you're right. That is odd, so I think it is up in the air whether it was plagiarized or if that was just his opening salvo and Veronica was being snarky about it. It could even have been acknowledged in the bibliography.

That's great! and I'm glad it happened because it points out that they could have been closer friends and it never developed.

I kind of assume that Logan, who went to great lengths to hide his abuse (good lord, man, crawl to the damn hospital and bleed on them) wanted to hide his humiliation when Aaron had sex with Lilly. It was consistent with his behavior.

In the first season Veronica Is getting good grades, working as a receptionist at Mars Investigations, Doing stakeouts and then investigating Lilly's death, looking for Mom and doing side jobs at school for money. She is also undergoing a lot of Logan related stress. In the second season Veronica is still doing the side jobs for money, investigating the bus crash, undergoing a lot of Logan related stress, and working at the coffee shop, and doing valedictory work at school, while preparing for Aaron's trial. Plus cleaning, cooking rubber bullets, and taking care of the dog. Also presumably applying for college, scholarships and grants, etc. When does she have time to spend with friends, or surf, or do anything else, really? It is amazing she can get away, any of the seasons, for a movie and a snuggle at the grand. I bet she relishes a calm, relaxed couple of hours with Duncan. I think that, annoying as this is, Wallace eventually realizes this.

I think Logan was being the Perfect Boyfriend to Parker, leading her on. I think he was giving her what turned out to be the wrong message, and Parker does notice fairly soon, they aren't together that long.

Late answering this, I think. Whew. I think the main thing about the Castle was blackmail. He could be controlled and he could be shaped. If he was a gifted engineer/basketball player he would think he could make it on his own, but he isn't, and the Castle would know that once he is in position they can use him to place other people. He might never be one of their stars, but particularly with his sincere demeanor, he could prove useful.

I think Veronica hates Madison and it isn't really logical and she's mad at herself for being so stupid as to take a drink from her. However, when she first starts to piece stuff together she doesn't know who brought the drug and may have actually thought it was Madison. It could have been, too, I don't think we see anything to indicate Madison would have been above making Veronica look like a drunken slut. Also, the salt lick thing was sexual assault and she didn't want to open up that can of worms. I don't think she had actual sexual intercourse with Logan at that time, but if she had I'd imagine she would have made sure they used a condom and she would assume the rape was unprotected. The bullying continues in all the seasons, in some form or another, it would make anyone skittish.