nikma

What showrunners Benioff & Weiss actually said at Austin Film Festival about writing and producing Game of Throne Though they were experienced writers before the show, David and Dan had to learn to communicate their ideas as first-time producers, as Weiss describes it: “We knew about story, we knew about character, and we knew tone, and how we wanted it all to feel, but all the rest of it we had to learn; and translate what we felt into words that would, say, lead a production designer in the direction that would produce the result we wanted.” “With the fantasy genre on television, tonally it’s very easy [go too] campy. Every scene, you change these two lines and it’s Monty Python and the Holy Grail,” Weiss jokes. “Also, in terms of fantasy exposition, with proper nouns, it’s almost like a game of Jenga, where you’re trying to plow as many of them as possible without the whole thing falling over. In the first pilot, we had one too many and the whole thing fell over. Going forward, we tried to keep that stuff to a minimum, because we didn’t just want to appeal to a fantasy fanbase. We wanted them to love it, and we wanted our parents to love it, and people who play professional football to love it. We wanted to reach a wider audience, and to do that keeping the tone [under control] was very important.” “There’s this famous Russian poet who read his poem and someone in the audience said, ‘You mind explaining the poem?’, and so he re-read the poem, and that was his response. That’s it,” Benioff said. “[A Song of Ice and Fire] is such a complex story that I don’t think we ever tried to [boil it down.] You kind of have to have a prepared answer –‘It’s about power, and family,’ and that’s all true; it is about power, it is about family. But I think it’s also true that two shows can have the same themes and be wildly different, and one’s good and one’s bad, and honestly it’s about the complexities they try to depict, it’s the characters. To try to cram it into a single aphorism isn’t helpful for me. There are other writers I know and respect who feel very differently, and operate differently, but for both of us, it’s not the way we work.” http://watchersonthewall.com/benioff-weiss-reflect-decade-game-thrones-austin-film-festival/ Everything they said on that panel was public knowledge for years and no one cared until S8. And this idea that the showrunners of the biggest show in history had no idea what they were doing is ridiculous. But that is expected from nerd fandoms. This reminds me of the attempts from angry fans to deny that George Lucas had anything to do with the success of Star Wars, after PT backlash. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that one of them having a wealthy father who was a past senior government official had anything to do with GoT being successful. Zero evidence whatsoever. What actually happened was they had serious literary chops, experience as writers, an idea for a show after they read the books, a pitch that sold GRRM and then HBO, a pilot that didn’t work precisely because of an overload of exposition and fantasy elements, and a second shot at the pilot which blew HBO away, and became an instant classic with audiences. And as we just saw with Bloodmoon (and as is often the case with TV pilots that don’t work, but where studios want the proposed show), the Bloodmoon showrunner, Jane Goldman, was given a second chance to create a second pilot. And she did. But unfortunately, it didn’t convince HBO to order a season. This is a story of meritocracy, and it’s being twisted into a false story of overwhelming privilege and the rewarding of white male mediocrity. That’s simply not what happened. B&W fought hard and created an insanely good pilot. And then they created season after season of the most popular TV show in history. A final season that didn’t land with a lot of fans doesn’t change that fact, and doesn’t rewrite history. They were perfectly competent. People just didn’t like what they did at the conclusion, and are using that as ground to argue that they were complete and utter novices and fools from the start, who should’ve have even been given the show by HBO.It’s a character assassination and yet people are perpetuating populist nonsense without a grounding in reality because you just don’t like the guys and what they did to your books. Why not leave it at that, instead of launching into unsubstantiated personal attacks?

Well deserved victory. I hope GoT spin off show(s) got that Emmy love as well.

Bad show written by bad writers who are also bad people. Sigh. It's like people talk about some sort of collective torture and not entertainment that was made to entertain you. The moment it didn't do that for you you should stop watching. If ratings failed things would have been changed. But ratings went up and no one should change the winning formula. You don't change winning team. So just like how those who supported Daenerys were accomplice in her crimes, those who are disappointed with the ending can blame only themselves, because they gave Benioff and Weiss that power. Because apparently this show was bad for 4 or 5 seasons. Maybe even since the beginning. And yet everyone watched and cheered for it. And Benioff and Weiss became more powerful and more sure that they are Good and Right. And now they have their deals with Netflix and Lucasfilm. We will never be free of them. So sad.

Yes it should have. If he was able to finish his books.

GOT was nominated for Outstanding Program of the Year at TCA Awards. https://deadline.com/2019/06/tca-awards-nominations-pose-russian-doll-hbo-networks-1202634724/

Cersei's death wasn't epic or dramatic, but I feel that was the idea. Like Tywin's death. I'm not sure how fans would react if Tywin's death was D&D's idea and in the books he had more dramatic death. Cersei's death was symbolic and I think where D&D really succeded is making you actually root for Cersei to escape at the end. It's crazy. After everything she has done you want her to escape. How many fantasy stories actually gave you something like that? She was so powerless and affraid, the show refused to give viewers any enjoyment in watching Cersei die, like they did with fan service Ramsay's death. It was complete oposite of fan-service, like a lot of things in S8. She died defeated and powerless with Jaime while Red Keep, the symbol of her ambition and power lust crushed on her.

Person who is not able to write one book in 8 years, wouldn't be able to run a TV show of this scale and size.

It doesn't even matter how many people disliked S8. Even if 90% of watchers hated it, so be it, this is still D&D's show and they can finish it how and when they want. They don't owe anyone anything. The story doesn't belong to fans.

It's really funny to think that HBO should have fired creators of their most popular show ever that earned them 47 Emmys. So far. This was D&D's show. They could have done whatever they wanted with it. Audience can like or dislike their work, but GoT doesn't belong to them and they are entitled to nothing, If D&D wanted Power Rangers to appear in the last season, they would appear If better ending is possible GRRM should write one. HBO had many great shows before GoT and it will have many great shows after GoT(they already got one). Life will go on. And the freedom they gave their showrunners is the reason why HBO is what it is. If Cogman was good material for showrunner, HBO wouldn't kill his GoT spin off show in the development phase.

That's not the point of scouring. But as I said, good thing for GRRM is that he will never finish the books and he can preserve this myth that he is a great writer and all the blame will fall on D&D for everything people dislike about the endgame. So point of story can be whatever you want it to be, because the ending will never be written. No one is right or wrong as long as GRRM is not doing his job. He is genius and D&D are hacks. And why would he do anything to change that?

If the war for the throne is stupid that undermines the whole story, because 95% of story in the books is about politics. So then the whole story is pointless. This story is not about climate change, it's about very human drama and relationships. WW won't be the climax if the final book, it was clear the moment GRRM said he wants his version of the Scouring of the Shire.

There is no Big Bad. That's not the story GRRM is telling. It's story about power, family, love, duty and human heart in conflict with itself. It's not about ice demons and saving the world from them. They are minor part of the 5 books we have, because they are not the point. The point is what was the point even in AGOT. And it will be in ADOS. Humans and their internal struggles and pseudo-political conflicts. GRRM won't turn his story into zombie apocalypse in the end. That's too simple. There is no human drama in WW's invasion, beacuse every human drama feels petty and pointless in those circumstances. And he will write his Scouring of the Shire. Which means the war will continue after WW are gone. Just like it was in LOTR.

Yeah, but GRRM wants his Scouring of the Shire. And he said that theme of his story is "human heart in conflict with itself". That has to play a role in the climax of the story, WW are just enemies, there is no internal conflict there. But that's what you get with Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion at the end of story if you remove WW earlier. Constant internal conflict. Love and duty. Family, honor, power, all these great themes that made this story great and that GRRM loves so much. And also the message is that humans are the biggest monsters, not some ice demons. Removing WW earlier and making the final conflict between Daenerys and everyone else makes the story much deeper thematically. Otherwise what is the theme of the story? We should unite and save the world? "Avengers assemble"? Where is human heart in conflict with itself there?

Climax of the story is Daenerys burning KL, becoming "villain" and being killed. WW are not the final enemy. Daenerys is. I would really love to see anyone write a scene that is not ridiculous, where they negotiate with the WW, they agree to return north of thr Wall and sleep. It's was all just one big misunderstanding. WW are nice guys and they will return to their homes to just sleep. The end. Just like Aragorn's tax policy and learning how to rule. But he still put a wizard on the throne.

Only when they don't have enough material from GRRM like with LSH or Aegon. They cut Aegon because removing Cersei, a character you have 5-6 seasons of emotional investment in and a top-notch actress playing to replace with another character who they need to establish on their own because there is no book materrial for him is a bad idea. fAegon removes any reason for the vast majority of the cast to care who sits on the Iron Throne because unlike Cersei, he has done nothing to wrong them. He introduces a massive, convoluted backstory for no other reason than to justify his existence. He cripples Jon's arc because being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing. He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim.He removes the conflict point between Dany and Tyrion because Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family. If he is a Blackfyre, he requires a massive amount of exposition for literally no other reason than a surprise twist. He turns secret Targs into a meme and makes you wonder if Targaryans ever actually die in Westeros The only reason to ignore his plan is if it's somethin really bad. But I don't think he has any plans. If he had real plans his story would've been finished long time ago. He only has ideas of plot points.

But that's the point. D&D introduced the Night King in S4 (the first season they wrote afer that big meeting with GRRM) because GRRM gave them no information about the way WW will be defeated in the books, so Night King became that plot device. If GRRM had any idea about WW's defeat in the books, we would get that in the show. As long as he doesn't finish the books this myth that GRRM knows what he is doing and there is some great plan for everything will live, I don't know if it's even in his interest to finish the books at all. But for me, ASOIAF is one big mess, and GRRM only has very vague ideas about some plot developments in the future and nothing else. Don't think so at all. WW will be destroyed in the books as well, and Jon's endgame is not to rejoin the Night's Watch, but to rejoin Free Folk, and that can't happen if WW still exist.

That's true. Quality of writing was consistent in the last 4 seasons. But S8 didn't give fans what they wanted. And the fact that even professional critics thought that Eastwatch and Beyond the Wall were so much better than Last of the Starks and The Bells is laughable. This shows that they reacted emotionally to the last season.

I still think there is no time in ADOS for AOTD to be all over Westeros. He would need at least one more book for that. Tyrion and Dany have to meet. He has to become her Hand. They have to end conflict in Meereen, sail for Westeros. She has to meet Jon, fall in love with him, defeat AOTD, burn KL and then she will be killed by Jon. And this is just Dany's storyline in the next two books. What about Jon? And Stannis vs Boltons? How will Myrcella die in the books? Tommen? What will happen with LSH, Aegon? How and when will Sansa move north? How will Arya end her storyline in Braavos? What will happen with Euron's attack on Oldtown? What will Cersei do? What will happen with High Sparrow and Doran? How will Bran leave the cave? What will happen with him? What will happen with Rickon? So many things need to happen in only 2 books. I really don't see room for a very long war against AOTD. But if we really get TWOW next year as GRRM said, we will get the sense of pacing. So we will see.

I don't think there was enough material to make WW's invasion last 6 or even 10 episodes. To have multiple battles with them would be boring and too expensive. Especially since we saw them in action in Hardhome, the Door and Beyond the Wall before 803. At the end everything had to end in one big climatic battle. I don't see how anything else could work, unless they wanted to turn this show into TWD. Maybe E1--3 of this season could have been E8-10 of S7. And then we would have 6 episodes in S8 for Cersei vs Dany and Dany's downfall. But tbh I'm not sure even that wouldn't be boring. I thinl what would make everything really work in almost perfect way would be just one more 80 minutes episode in S8 post E3 and they should have made Daenerys killing Tarlys less morally grey. She should be just cruel there and kill them without giving them any other options.

This makes no sense. They knew about shorter seasons years before they got Star Wars. And again if there is some great twist about WW from the books, they would use it, just like they used every twist GRRM gave them. I You can't put all of that in just two books without much faster pace.

And it also explains why they made him "dumb", why political side of his character was cut from the show. His destiny wasn't to rule, they made him "stupid" so we won't feel like Westeros missed great opportunity. Well the only way to makes sense of what they did is that they(like many of us) though that this was just stupid idea and they never even tried to make it work and they hoped people won't care that much. It feels like they never believed in this plot development. As Leila6 said, it's giant cop-out. GRRM whines about Aragorn's tax policy, but he puts a wizard on the throne at the end. What's Bran's tax policy? Lol Or maybe D&D thought that fact that Bran was memory was enough. Humanity made many mistakes, so they should learn from the past and that's what Bran is. And one else wanted the throne. Except Edmure lol. So Bran is a symbol and not real ruler. Tyrion is the one who really rules. And I think a lot of people misinterpreted that line about "best story". It's not only about Bran's personal story, but about the fact that he knows everyone's story. He is like a good collection of books. Lol Collection of great stories.

When I said time I meant space in the books. We know from S6-8 how many things need to happen in the books. And he was even more characters and storylines. If he keeps his idea about only two more books I can't see how WW's invasion won't end in one big battle. At Winterfell. I think there is a reason why he named it that way. If he pushes for more books, we won't finish the story. And again, if he knew how WW will be defeated in the books we would've seen that in the show. There was no reason for D&D to ignore that.

(I hope this is a good place for this post) I agree with what Luke Nieto said here: This may also explain why some people prefer the early seasons and I don't. I love dialogue, but it's not everything. The later seasons are much better at communicating story through an audiovisual medium, relying more on filmmaking and acting to tell the story, which I love. As I said in another thread, the early seasons are like Harry Potter 1 and 2 in that way; their filmmaking is practical, plain, just a necessary vehicle to tell the story, which is mainly told in dialogue, since it's adapted from a text. Later seasons learned how to be a TV show. And what Joe Magician‏ said: I really do feel elements of the show are left out of analysis entirely because they're not dialogue. And that really misses the point of a visual medium. Costume, music, facial expressions and body language, scene construction, etc. They all matter, they're all used to tell the story we're watching. But because we're a fandom that loves quoting passages of text at each other and parsing word choice from the books, these get pushed to the side. Dialogue is not the story. Daenerys having Drogon's wings behind her as she wears black with red is far more effective at communicating how far gone she is than any character explaining it. Or the use of light of the seven before Dany started burning the city.

Ok. I will stop now.

I agree with what Luke Nieto said here: This may also explain why some people prefer the early seasons and I don't. I love dialogue, but it's not everything. The later seasons are much better at communicating story through an audiovisual medium, relying more on filmmaking and acting to tell the story, which I love. As I said in another thread, the early seasons are like Harry Potter 1 and 2 in that way; their filmmaking is practical, plain, just a necessary vehicle to tell the story, which is mainly told in dialogue, since it's adapted from a text. Later seasons learned how to be a TV show. And what Joe Magician‏ said: I really do feel elements of the show are left out of analysis entirely because they're not dialogue. And that really misses the point of a visual medium. Costume, music, facial expressions and body language, scene construction, etc. They all matter, they're all used to tell the story we're watching. But because we're a fandom that loves quoting passages of text at each other and parsing word choice from the books, these get pushed to the side. Dialogue is not the story. Daenerys having Drogon's wings behind her as she wears black with red is far more effective at communicating how far gone she is than any character explaining it. Or the use of light of the seven before Dany started burning the city.