Arkay

I don't think Arkay was saying this conversation should be forced - just it would be nice to see - for me mainly because it would show that the girls are finally distancing themselves from the cult. A girl can dream - we all know though this is very unlikely to happen, certainly for most of them anyway. Yes, thank you. Of course I didn’t mean compelled and I didn’t think it would be interpreted that way. My thought is that IF IT WOULD HELP the sisters who were victimized. I don’t want them to have to suffer this retriggering helplessly. They are adults now with husbands who are on their side, to give them support, and now that they have daughters they see things through a different lens than when they were helpless children.

@zella @maryannespier I agree with both of your comments on my post. Let me amend to say that I wish for that show ONLY if the participants are willing and feel it would enable them to heal. That is what I meant but perhaps I wasn’t clear. And that JB is forbidden to attach any strings to Anna. Whatever Anna chose to ignore before, who knows her reasons, but this is way beyond and the marriage must be severed. The New Testament allows for divorce in cases of adultery which Josh committed along with these unspeakable crimes. She wouldn’t be allowed to remarry, not Biblically, but he adds nothing to the marriage except agony and betrayal.

The show I’d like to see now, or a one-time special, would be the four sister victims and their husbands with some kind of panel discussion or something. Frank and candid talk about what Josh actually did to them and how they have coped. What they think should happen to Josh now and how maybe they can support Anna emotionally at least. I think those four husbands, Derrick, Jeremy, Ben and Austin should band together. Condemn Josh in no uncertain terms. Feel free to examine where JB & M dropped the ball. How they support their wives and guard their children. The different manner in which their children will be raised going forward. I think Jill would be more candid now than when she had to act nonchalantly about being a victim. Maybe Jessa would, but she’s the least likely IMO. I think Jinger would prefer to move forward but Jeremy would be able to convince her. Austin especially should because isn’t Joy the one who was only five when she was molested by her own big brother? I also think JD and Joe are genuinely disgusted with Josh and have been for a long time. They are married fathers. Join in the discussion and be frank about when you learned about Josh when you were boys. Talk about your parents and how they mismanaged this whole tragedy. I would include Jana. Maybe she would in fact pull back the curtain if she were surrounded by this group, and away from JB and Michelle. Move in maybe with one of her married siblings. Shake out that rug and let the dirt out. Then vacuum it up after honest though painful revelations. Anna’s brother may have been sincere years ago in offering her a home with him. It’s really a different ballgame with 6 traumatized children and a 7th on the way. Who has room or money for that? Jim Bob. Jim Bob OWES Anna and the little M kids. Whatever Anna chose to overlook in the past, those kids deserve better going forward now. He should IMO install Anna and her kids in one of his nicest properties. Pay all the bills. Hire a woman to help her. Maybe Jana although I’d like her to have her own life by now. And never ever set foot in that house, not JB nor Michelle. Just help Anna out and keep away.

IMO a “timely manner” would be 30 years behind bars. Then when he’s released he needs to be forbidden from seeing the 100 grandchildren he will have by then.

I don’t know if I’ve ever posted in this thread at all. I know this isn’t the prevailing opinion here, but the one thing I want to state is my personal opinion regarding Jeremy/Jinger. I like them. And IMO they bear no blame at all for what Josh has done, and should not be held accountable, forced to explain themselves or suffer consequences from actions that they did not do. It may be true that their fame, such as it is, is a direct result from being a part of the Duggar family. Jinger had no choice in that and I’m content to believe Jeremy actually did fall in love with her. He certainly removed her from the Duggar orbit as soon as possible. I also have no problem with Jill and Derrick. I think it took a lot of courage for her to speak up about family issues. No brickbats, please. My opinion only.

Same. Then right after when he promised not to leave her, it was very obvious that the parents would be overwhelmed and overturn the adoption. What a sweet little girl, and a good actress. So it will be Devon and Leela, but now Cain and the new woman doctor, instead of Cain and Rose? I agree the tornado came and went, but that’s what tornadoes do. The damage it created was the direct cause of Piper’s death and also the handyman with the metal lodged in his skull, so that along with Sammie created the medical plot.

Ow, my eyes! I could not watch that awful kissing session with Danny and Maureen. Here is a girl who has never been alone with a guy (never mind the camera crew), and she’s giggling like a 12-year old at the thought they might kiss. Meanwhile, Danny has a daughter. He shouldn’t be leading her on this way. And, he’s just so gruesome. I doubt if Rosanna’s new English friends would be hanging out with her if they weren’t on TV. I hope I’m wrong. The guy and the girl who were talking about how Rosanna left her whole world behind were telling the truth, and I hope they’re sincere. Sabrina, Sabrina. I can’t stand her, but Jethro is rotten to leave his kids behind. Carmela’s my heroine on this show. She does so much for Jeremiah and is so supportive. In return she gets nothing. Although I take back “heroine,” because I still don’t know why Carmela and Jeremiah aren’t with their own kids. I know Carmela has adult children but didn’t she have little ones, too?

@Yeah No I agree with a lot of what you’re saying about Dennis. Jeremiah seemed truly stunned and perhaps therefore he really had no idea about his father and his family. I think Dennis thought he MIGHT be Jeremiah’s father, but having known his wife (Jeremiah’s mother, were they married?) had a sister who was married to this Larry, he may have wondered. If Larry’s wife, the mother’s sister, knew about the affair, then maybe Dennis knew about it. Yes, Jeremiah looks like his bio dad, but that doesn’t always mean much. My daughter doesn’t resemble me at all. As to Ada being the grandmother, Maureen said at the start of the season that she was leaving to go to her grandmother in Florida, and her parents were aghast. They said something about Ada’s bad reputation in the community. Maureen refers to Ada as her grandmother. I am 63 and have a 16-year old granddaughter, and while not Amish at all, both I and my daughter married at 21 and had children at 22 and 24. I’m the only one of my friends to have been a grandma at 47, and it’s unusual here in NYC, but it happens!

Very emotional episode. I’m relieved AJ is staying, although for such a terrible reason. Why is Mina actually leaving? The actress has another project lined up or something? I had been looking forward to them growing as a couple. We all knew something was going to develop between Rose and Cain, but I wish they hadn’t gone in that direction. He’s evil, to have attempted that operation when he knew he wasn’t 100%. I guess it looks like Pravesh and the female Indian doctor are going to fall in love, after all.

Yes, Ada is the grandmother. I also think Daniel is no longer Amish, because otherwise he wouldn’t be driving. That’s why he’s hired by those who won’t drive. Plus he isn’t dressed Amish and he seems to be sex-crazy. Personally I think he will be Maureen’s downfall.

I actually do feel for Jeremiah because this was a lot more than finding out that Dennis isn’t his father. That’s a crazy and awful family situation. I know it’s too raw for Jeremiah at the moment, but he isn’t processing yet that his father was no innocent. Of course it’s terrible that his wife murdered him, but Jeremiah is blaming only his mother for the affair with her brother-in-law yet not blaming his father/uncle for doing the same. They all sound like a bunch of messed up people. I wish Jeremiah would have appreciated more that his Amish parents gave him a stable home life. Then, of course, Sabrina has to step all over Jeremiah’s newly discovered anguish to make it about her and her pain. I don’t know what I believe about Sabrina and Jethro. Maybe he is cheating but she seemed to be really playing to the cameras. I know taste is very personal, but I will NOT be able to watch Maureen kissing Danny and fantasizing about losing her virginity to him.

I just watched this episode. So many awful characters. Bob at the beginning seemed guilty to me even before we found out about his icky other life and obsessions. He was too chipper in the very beginning in his police interview. And once we knew he was capable of ordering a hit on Joe, there was no way he could maintain that he was a pacifist who would never do such a thing. I don’t believe that Jane knew about this. Maybe a key party, but not a dungeon and a mistress with whom he was buying a house. I didn’t appreciate the defense attorney who was personally so sure that Jane knew. I also don’t believe that the bartender guy had absolutely no idea what was happening in the basement of his establishment. If people nearby noticed leather-clad people with whips, etc. then surely he did as well. The suggestions for casting are great. For Bob I might go with George Wendt, if he can play menacing. Or John Goodman, but he’s not so large anymore, I think. Gary Busey is the only one I can see playing Joe. Maybe Tony Sirico for the appliance guy, although he’s older. Too bad because Gandolfini would’ve been great.

I hope it's just misdirection in the A.J./Mina storyline, because A.J. Makes the show for me.

Of course Sabrina had to brag that everyone knows she can't keep a secret. She seems to think this is an endearing quality, instead of being the source of a lot of trouble. Of course she had to create turmoil between Maureen and Rosanna, then sit back and give what she clearly thinks is wise advice. I agree that for someone who really doesn't seem to know much about the English world, Rosanna let fly a lot of filth. Where did she hear that language? So maybe she has been out for awhile. I would still take her side because I CANNOT STAND DANNY. I will say that Sabrina's daughter is adorable, and I hope and pray they do stay sober.

Unfortunately, I do have that experience in my family. I can 100% see Kat erratically running into the street, especially while drunk, then stumbling and hitting her head. The part that makes me suspect the husband is that he apparently never wondered why his wife wasn't home after they'd gone together to the liquor store, and then go out to find her and bring her in. As soul-crushingly exhausting as it is to deal with someone bipolar or otherwise very erratic, you don't just cozy up indoors for the night unless you know your wife is okay. ETA: I didn't see a hint of Monroe in Kat. Fake boobs and dyed blonde hair don't change your facial features. And I agree with others about the EMT in NYC. I'm a lifelong New Yorker and yes, it's very expensive to live here. You can always move to an outer-borough neighborhood which, while still expensive, is not as bad as the rent in Manhattan. She didn't get fired as an EMT, and I know whole families in New York that survive on $40,000, although it isn't easy. She doesn't seem to have children and hasn't endured a tragedy. I would never contribute to her.

That phone sex thing was really disturbing. It was so invasive to have that on film, and it was nauseating to watch. I think Daniel is disgusting but my opinion doesn't matter, if Maureen likes him. Obviously she hasn't met many men outside of her Amish life. I see Rosanna as much more sheltered, but I'm surprised she knew the phrase "phone sex." Actually, this entire episode was upsetting. All these people in Florida without masks and no social distancing, especially indoors at a restaurant. That ghoulish woman in her home, with the superior attitude and the vocal fry. Filming that woman's bra and panties. Tossing the Amish girls into a social encounter with mean kids who laughed at them, although the red-headed girl seemed to more patiently explain about the globe and about sushi. Jeremiah enjoying making Matt and Jethro uncomfortable. And Jeremiah and Carmela cooing over a baby, when we haven't seen them with their own children in forever. And Sabrina. Anything about Sabrina. I may have to quit watching this season. Even though I know it is all staged, I dislike them all except for Carmela and Ada, at times.

I understand Jeremiah has this deep need for parental love and attention. I do. But one thing I cannot tolerate are these asshole biological non-parents, who disappear for all the years of responsibility and then glide in when they themselves are getting old. Then Jeremiah has nothing but contempt for the people who did actually raise him. And where are his kids? He's replaying what his bio dad did. How often does he see them? Does he financially support them? Where are Carmela's younger kids? I like this show when it does what it initially did, (or pretended to do)--- show these young people and their experiences in a new world. Rosanna at the beach. That stuff. I have less than zero reason to watch Jeremiah and particularly Sabrina. I actually think Rosanna should go back to the Amish. Right now it's fun...the beach and parasailing and all that. She will have fun wearing English clothes and makeup, I'm sure. But everyday life is not just the beach and clothes. I can't see her fitting into this world. That nervous breakdown was telling, and I think she needs her parents.

Interesting, because I had been thinking of Harry wearing a Nazi costume with a swastika armband, and why that didn't disturb Meghan Markle. Especially since her first husband was Jewish. Thinking through this Rachael stuff, I was imagining how I, as a Jewish person, would feel if I found out that "my person" had worn a swastika to a party. They would be DEAD to me right then and forever after. But I think what Rachael did was less blatant because there were no overt symbols of hatred at her party, I presume. If they had an antebellum party with a black dummy hanging from a tree---that would equate to me with someone wearing a Nazi armband. There is no ignorance then of what that "party" would mean. Would I forgive "my person" (I hate that phrase) if they had German heritage and wore lederhosen at a German-themed party? Yes. My childhood best friend is German. If the person wore a WW II era German uniform, without a swastika? I'm not sure. Maybe that's how Matt feels. I think it's a matter of degree in what is being symbolized and how overt it is, and what the person I think I love understood the party to represent.

I agree. I'm reading a book right now about Kensington Palace in the Georgian age, 18th century, and hoop skirts were worn by all women "of quality." It's the plantation part, not the dress, that connotes an era of slavery. I doubt whether Rachel or any of her sorority sisters were thinking, "whoopie, I can pretend to be a slave-owner." If she grew up in small-town Georgia, a lifestyle about which I know nothing, I imagine it was just some kind of cultural affectation. She's since been informed and seems to be genuinely apologetic. Matt seemed hurt, genuinely, but also thoroughly disinterested in what Rachel says or does going forward. So that's not love. I also wonder about Rachel falling so head-over-heels for him. What was the connection? Just lust? Matt also grew up in the South, but apparently more culturally integrated, maybe? I'm wondering how his parents met, a Southern woman and an African man. I have never been much of a Chris Harrison fan. Unlike a Jeff Probst, he had such a tiny role, really. Clink the glass, pronounce that there is one rose left, etc. I didn't see the Rachel Lindsay interview (not a fan of hers, either) and I do think a break is fair, but maybe not permanent banishment. I'd be happy if Emmanuel Acho became the new host. NOT JoJo again.

What a mistake for Matt to have ever come on this show. I didn't know much about him, except that he was buddies with Tyler Cameron and thus by extension part of his quarantine crew with Hannah Brown (ugh). And then that he was in a very expensive apartment in Manhattan, roomies with Tyler. Being the lead on this show did him no favors. Yes his exposure has increased and whatever goodies come with that in the 21st century of influencers. But IMO he came off all season as a dumbass with nothing to say. He clearly had dad issues which I do not belittle, but now we see he has mom issues as well. He's tongue-tied which is an impediment to the lead of a show. As another poster said, he had a wealth of lovely women of color from which to choose, but he chose a white Southern belle. Of course she could never truly understand him as a black man. However, he has a white mom who married an African. Did she understand either? (Although the father is a jerk). But having a white mom must have given him some kind of insight into interracial issues and he was just dumbstruck. I know he's in pain and Rachel's ignorance deeply wounded him, but if he LOVED her, maybe he could've tried to work WITH her to help with these issues. The way he was so callous to Michelle by denying her closure shows me that he's got issues with closing himself off and not wanting to deal with anything uncomfortable. Shame, because I liked him at the start.

Meant to add...Rachel was clearly freezing at the proposal platform....I can't believe Matt didn't take off his jacket to put over her. That would be more real-life love than both of them maintaining their looks. Also, was it winter on one of their dates, snowing etc., but then at the end it was autumn again? Obviously it may have snowed early, but those autumn leaves looked fresh.

I've never heard of Emmanuel Acho before, but I thought he was sensitive and asked insightful questions, and kept the tone from getting out of hand. He shouldn't have mentioned a final embrace, but otherwise I felt he was fair and on point. I'm a New Yorker, all races interact daily and there are no parties here celebrating the Antebellum South. So I'm trying to understand that Rachel comes from a Southern culture where these parties happen. Maybe they felt that it was like playing dress-up? Yet it's impossible that no one ever had a flicker of clarity that these were not happy times for black people. Anyone here from the South who knows more about this? I really didn't know that plantation parties were a thing. So Katie's season is this summer, and then Michelle will have a season, too. What comes in between? Will there be a BIP? Then after Katie, another Bachelor season before Michelle has her turn? I kind of hope Michelle finds someone before waiting that long, although she would make a great Bachelorette.

Here's another thing about it being 2021....there are LOTS of divorces and LOTS of single parents and there isn't the sense of shame over it that there was in previous centuries. Not that it's easy for the single parent or child, but this sense of being damaged goods....I mean, Chris Harrison is divorced, his wife became a single mom....obviously Chris has his own issues but not with this damaged goods stuff. All along I've wondered why Matt felt like such an outcast, having a single mother, but now that I've met his family it's quite clear. His mother SEEMS gentle and loving, but then lobbed that grenade at him. The brother seems very close to Matt, but I cannot look at anyone who is wearing a grill. Matt, Michelle was RIGHT THERE!

Didn't she say when she called Devon that she was in town for her annual something or other, some kind of treatment? So if she hasn't been there for a year, it's not his baby. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that's what she said. Or unless the baby is older than he seemed. Maybe the shocked look on his face is because he had hoped for a future with her.

Wow. Live and learn. Maybe the nearest NY equivalent would be WTF?