Leila6

I’m with you there. I have no doubts David and Dan would never have made Bran king if GRRM hadn’t told them that’s how his story ends. It’s boring and nonsensical at best, and highly, highly problematic at worst. (I’m talking omniscient godking who planned this whole thing to end up on the throne, will likely live hundreds of years as a compassionless dictator, and has no good succession plan following his eventual death.) Honestly, I think GRRM is considerably overrated as a writer. He is absolutely fantastic at world building, but his plotting, to put it mildly, could use some work. It seems like he came up with his ending decades ago without a clear idea how to get there, and now that his story and his characters (and modern culture, if we can judge by his treatment of female characters) have grown beyond that ending, he’s still stubbornly sticking to it even though it no longer works. And that’s why he’s struggling so hard to finish. He can’t get the characters to those endings in a satisfying way because those endings are no longer satisfying in the context of the narrative.

God, I hate Bran so much in the end. Useless, evil twerp.

How is it that no one has posted yet that in addition to Richard Madden (Robb Stark), Kit Harington (Jon Snow) will be in the MCU’s Eternals, coming out late next year? Kit is playing Dane Whitman, aka The Black Knight ☺️.

Just like Aragorn's tax policy and learning how to rule. But he still put a wizard on the throne. I agree with Nikma. I doubt GRRM’s solution, if he ever finishes the books, will be all that much more satisfying than the show’s end. I’m sure it will be developed better, but some of the central plot points, like Bran as king, flat-out suck. The way it played out in the show, the wizard king is seemingly meant to be one of the sweet elements of the bittersweet ending, but it’s a fatalistic endgame and sends a terrible message about humanity. It makes me question how well GRRM really thought everything out.

This has just convinced me that I won’t be reading the rest of Martin’s books if they ever come out. While I’m sure Bran becoming king won’t be so silly and abrupt in the books as it was on the show, I absolutely loathe the idea that Westeros ends with a god/sorcerer king. I know it’s been done elsewhere in literature, but I personally think it’s a giant cop-out that sends a terrible, fatalistic message about humanity. And how does that demonstrate “the human heart in conflict with itself”? The TER doesn’t really have a heart of its own to contend with. Google isn’t exactly soulful.

Is there an Inside the Episode for the finale? It’s not available on HBO Now, and I haven’t seen this mentioned anywhere else. I thought Jon’s look back to the Wall as the gate closed was very clearly a goodbye. He ain’t never coming back. In my head canon, he eventually settles down with a wildling girl (Val?) and has lots of beautiful, fierce little babies because why the hell should he care about the NW vows now? The guy saved all of humanity—repeatedly—and got shipped off to a penal colony. Screw that and screw Westeros. I am firmly convinced Bran planned all of it and that Westeros is doomed. Meanwhile, it looks like spring is coming to the far north, which might even return to the temperate paradise it was before the CotF created the WW. I like to imagine Jon in 10-20 years, after Westeros has realized that Bran ain’t exactly benevolent—and, shit, he has superpowers and can live practically forever!—sitting pretty as the King Beyond the Wall, surrounded by true friends and his own family, as the Six Kingdoms live in fear. It makes as much sense as the ending they did give us, and yet feels far more satisfying than the show’s narrative clusterfuck.

THANK YOU! The minute I found out about the Bran as king ending (I was spoiled), that was one of my first reactions. A great story (which Bran certainly does not have in comparison to everyone else) is almost totally irrelevant to how that person will be as king. Hell, I’d argue that Robert Baratheon’s story probably played better with the small folk than Bran’s, and he could not have cared less about the minutiae of ruling. The more I think about it, the more Bran actually comes across as a villain to me in the end. He revealed that he had foreknowledge of his kingship and seemed to be manipulating events to get there, but he did nothing to stop the King’s Landing tragedy. That’s even more cold-blooded than Daenerys, who at least wasn’t quite right in the head at the end there.

More detail from the accurate spoilers: On Jon killing Dany, he tone of it is very tragic. It's kind of like she's completely consumed by madness and he's saying how much he loves her and he's loyal to her, then he stabs her when he gets close enough. It's obviously traumatizing for him to do because he does love her. Why Jon kills her? At that point Jon is horrified by what Dany has done to King's Landing, and she gives speeches about how she'll keep doing it to free slaves from their chains. He's also convinced by Tyrion that his family will never be safe because he presents a threat to her rule, so he's motivated by that as well, I'm sure. After Dany takes KL, Dany gives a speech about freeing slaves across the world, etc. Some scenes where characters are reflecting on the devastation she's caused. Some scenes where they're deciding how to handle Tyrion, who's a prisoner. If it does happen in episode 6, there's probably 40-50 minutes of buildup before Jon actually commits to killing Dany. Not sure what was filmed in Dragon Pit. Not sure on Vary's betrayal. Tyrion gets arrested because he frees Jaime to try to save Cersei, I think. His arrest definitely happens after that and there's no way that it's not a factor in it Unless they filmed alternate scenes where Tyrion dies and invested in post-production to polish those scenes with ADR, CGI, editing, etc for some inexplicable reason to throw off a tiny minority of the viewer base, Tyrion lives and will be on Bran's small council. Jon surrenders to the Unsullied after killing Dany. Jon doesn't kill Dany in a moment of madness. It's more like she becomes hellbent on a particular mode of justice that Jon realizes he will not be able to discourage. In the epilogue, the unsullied leave to cross the sea and start liberating slave cities on their own, because that's Dany's plan before Jon kills her -- she has this big speech scene, after sacking King's Landing, where she's talking about wrecking the world, liberating all of the slaves from their masters. [Emilia mentioned giving a big speech in multiple languages—this must be it.] When they're deciding who to elect as king, Sam suggests holding a democratic election and the other nobles laugh at him. That's before they vote on Bran. On Jon taking the black: I'm really unclear about why Jon takes the black, but it seems more like he makes the decision himself, or that he makes the decision in conjunction with other people. It doesn't seem like he's forced to do it, or at least not that he's doing it against his will. He's pretty defeated after killing Dany. I don't know 100% about Jon's epilogue but he's not just going north to just retire out in the wild, it's definitely related to the Night's Watch. Taking the black is what makes him no longer a legitimate heir to the throne.

I think you missed my point. He can see all that, but he’s not sharing much of it. That greatly reduces his usefulness to a council.

I hate it, too. And here’s Isaac Hempstead-Wright’s thoughts on it from a recent interview: “Bran doesn’t care. It’s totally irrelevant to Bran that Samwell Tarly’s family has died, unfortunately. The Three-Eyed Raven doesn’t see things in terms of personal sadness. He just sees things in terms of the way things must unfold, or the way time goes … But that’s been the role of the Three-Eyed Raven for millennia. To sit there, watching, carefully. He doesn’t sit there judging. He doesn’t sit there advising. He just sits there keeping an eye on history and time....I think the job of the Three-Eyed Raven is to keep the information and decide what to be shared. The previous Three-Eyed Raven, and all the Three-Eyed Ravens before him, they didn’t share information. They sat there, and they waited. They just kept abreast of everything.” It sounds like the TER is meant to be a repository of history and little else. Not actively ruling as king or even advising much. I just don’t get it.

In theory, that’s correct and it might work better in the books. But in the show, Bran has been weirdly withholding of information and just seems to spend his days flying around in ravens for little apparent reason. I also hate the answer of a god-king, despite its antecedents in fantasy and sci-fi, because it’s a cop out for humanity. I didn’t peg GRRM as endorsing that kind of idea.

I liked 8.4 a hell of a lot better than 8.3. The Euron thing was asinine, but I did enjoy all the interactions between the characters, and I thought the acting was stellar across the board. I’m hoping MQD is misdirection for the real shock (WTF moment) at the end. I hate the JKD idea, but I did get a strong foreshadowing vibe from Jon’s conversation with Tormund that Jon will end up living out his days in the true north with Ghost and the Free Folk. 8.3 really dashed my hopes for this show, so at this point I’m mainly hoping not to loathe Jon’s end, as he’s my favorite character, and que sera sera for everything else.

This sums up my feelings. We’re to believe that Arya got past all those white walkers with literally none of them seeing her or stopping her? What, did she fly through the trees? Total bullshit. And on a book note, I guess the Prince That Was Promised prophecy is also total bullshit? God, what’s the point? Fuck it.

For the fun of it, who do y’all think is gonna die next ep? I think the following are goners: Theon Podrick Beric Jorah Tormund Ghost (But gods I hope not! He hasn’t had quality time with Jon yet.) Melisandre (?) Alys Karstark (if they even bother showing her)

That’s true, although I was looking at it from a sheer numbers standpoint. The north doesn’t have many fighters left. Your comment does remind me that I’m kind of annoyed no one has mentioned Jon’s dragon-riding yet. Tyrion, at least, should realize that something is up with Jon’s lineage and that, as you point out, Rhaegal should technically be Jon’s to “command” at this point. On a separate note, I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but John Bradley is wearing that protective covering over his costume that Sophie and Maisie are wearing in other BTS videos. That seems to confirm there’s no Nights Watch at the end of this (or at least that he’s released from it) because why otherwise would they hide his costume?

Exactly. Most people don't know this. By disinheriting Rhaegar and his children i.e. Jon, Aerys made Dany the direct heir to the throne after Viseryn died. Martin deliberately muddied Jon's claim to the Iron Throne so that he and his supporters couldn't simply step on and over Dany's claim because of gender like D&D are doing in the show. I always thought the purpose of this was to ensure that a marriage was the only way to resolve the rival claims. Even if Aerys has the authority to do this (which is highly debatable), you still run into the fact that the council post-Dance decided that male heirs always supersede female heirs. So, if Viserys has lived, he would have a decent argument for claiming the throne over Jon, but Dany’s claim really isn’t strong if you’re looking at it from inheritance rules. Now, if you’re considering the rule of might, her claim is tops.

Ugh. I’m just hoping Sansa (and now Arya, I guess) aren’t nearly as annoying in S8 as I expect them to be. Otherwise I’m going to be doing a lot of fast-forwarding through their scenes on rewatch.

He also said Rose came up with a ton of possible endings, and none of those were right either. This leads me to believe the ending might be kind of cray cray. If it’s nothing obvious or semi-obvious or even decently guessable, what the heck is it? Also, that interview was hilarious and adorable.

As far as the audience knows she's a prisoner and alive, since Theon is on his way to rescue her. The last the audience saw her, several episodes ago, she was the prisoner of a murderous madman who was in direct competition to her for the Ironborn throne and who had plenty of time to kill her/maim her. Theon hopes she’s alive, but he doesn’t know it. It’s silly to get mad at the marketing campaign for not giving away a spoiler.

You’re forgetting that the audience doesn’t know if she’s still alive, so that would be a spoiler.

That’s really crappy of D&D. Glover may have been an asshat, but McInnerny had presence, and it will stand out that he’s randomly not there. It makes no sense.

Trying to resign myself to the fact that that is the most likely ending, and I will deeply regret investing so much time and mental energy into this show and ASOIAF. I find nothing satisfying about a god-king ruling with “political genius” Sansa pulling the strings behind the scenes. Serious question: I wonder how much of the fan base in general actually would like that. I doubt D&D didn’t consider the fan reaction when writing the ending. But, of course, they could have been constrained by GRRM’s ending and had little choice.

I love how we all assume Dany will be pregnant next season. Of all the many plots and possibilities, if that doesn’t happen, it will be the most shocking of all. On a shallow note, what is with Dany’s ascot? I know it’s cold and I don’t begrudge her a scarf, but it looks like the wrong time period to me. I find it distracting, but I know very little about fashion. ::shrugs::

Me, too. Certain endings are predictable because the narrative has built towards them. To me, that makes them better than surprise endings. I value and enjoy stories that make sense and have payoff to the narrative threads woven throughout the series much more than those that have a big twist in the finale. That’s not to say that all surprise endings are illogical, of course, but rather that I do not agree that twist endings are inherently better than “predictable” ones. However, big budget Hollywood most definitely seems to value shock over narrative continuity, so I don’t have all that much hope I’ll be satisfied. (Anything but King Bran, though, please! That’s godawful.)

NB: Anamika was quoting some other, unnamed person. I don’t see why people think Sansa has been shown to be such a great leader. As a thought experiment, if she had been named Queen in the North instead of Jon, where would things stand now? She didn’t want him to meet with Dany, so the North wouldn’t have that crucial alliance and the armies and dragons that come with it. She was still more concerned about Cersei than the AotD, and quite possibly would have wasted troops fending off that unlikely threat to the south. She seems to have been a capable administrator in preparing Winterfell’s rations—and armor, if you ignore the utter stupidity of the idea that northern armorers wouldn’t know how to make their own wares without her correcting them. But then what would have happened? Without more defenders, the North would have succumbed to the AotD eventually anyway. (I think the Night King was planning to get past the Wall at Eastwatch no matter whether he had acquired Viserion or not.) It’s only through Jon’s decisions and Jon’s actions that the north stands a chance. From what I’ve seen, she’s capable of carrying out orders well if she feels like it, but she’s not great at making the right choices in the first place. (And don’t even get me started on her withholding information about the Knights of the Vale from her military commander in the BoB.)