Sighed I

Okay. I must have missed the spoilers upthread, apart from who Negan killed in the comics. Even though I don't read them it's been plastered all over the internet for so long I couldn't avoid finding out. I guess I took for granted it's pretty much common knowledge at this point. It's conceivable some folks still don't know, though, and it wouldn't be fair to delete half the thread either. I guess I will tread carefully here for now, and keep away once the buzz starts after production begins. If there's enough call to warrant a spoiler-free spec thread later, I'll participate in that one. Thanks for the response, HalcyonDays. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Since it's still early on, might it be possible to make it spoilers prior to and including season 6 and keep the season 7 spoilers in the Watch Duty thread or spoiler tag them here? I've been trying to avoid future spoilers but have felt relatively comfortable posting in this thread since filming hasn't started yet. There's a lot of great discussion in this thread and I would hate to see it have to be split into two season 7 threads. I don't know how others feel about it but thought I'd throw it out there.

I was going to take this to the Season 7 Anticipation thread, then I remembered you aren't reading spoilers (though the only thing being spoiled thus far is Season 6, in case you're curious), so I will reply to your post here. You make some interesting points, particularly about psychopaths feeding off the perceived weakness of others. I believe behavioral clues factor heavily when Negan chooses his victim, along with any intel his people may have gathered prior to the first meeting of another group. That said, in order to have amassed and held onto so much power, Negan has to have more self-control than to strike down the weakest individual simply because they are or seem to be the weakest, IMO. Unless of course, he believes that individual's demise would have the greatest impact on the group. Certainly many communities would have those in need of protection, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Saviors have also conquered groups comprised solely of healthy, tough survivors. I believe the "type" of person he chooses varies from group to group. Upthread Nashville nicely summarizes why I think this is the case: A group like Hilltop (based on what we've seen thus far), or ASZ pre-CBD wouldn't require such enormous planning and expediture of manpower and resources to get their point across. In their case, choosing a particularly vulnerable individual, as you suggest, would work nicely. For a group like Rick's, brutalizing the helpless may only serve to inflame them to resist or otherwise undermine the Saviors. I think Negan's primarily interested in a steady flow of supplies with as little resistance as possible. Yes, he needs enough healthy, strong individuals to do the heavy lifting, but the easily controlled also serve a purpose. The threat of harm to them is a good way of keeping the stronger members in line. Also, the Saviors want goods, scavenged, stolen and/or produced. A noncombatant can grow food, raise livestock, take care of the sick, injured and/or young, create or repair things, etc., leaving the fittest and toughest free for other purposes. Given the angle of the blows and the increasingly "meaty" sounds (as another poster so gruesomely and accurately put it) when the screen goes black, no way was it a "simple" maiming. The dozen+ Polaroids we saw in Not Tomorrow Yet strongly suggest brain bashing is standard procedure. This is one of several reasons I can't see Carl being the victim. The Saviors can't feed Carl's eye to Rick if his head is obliterated. If any group needed to "pay the price", it was Rick's. CDB killed a lot of his people, on more than one occasion. Negan addresses Carl as "Kid" from the very beginning, and he's the only one young enough, IMO, to be Rick's son. To me Aaron looks at least 30, Rick in his early to mid-40s. I'm confident Negan was always referring to Carl.

I love Easter eggs, so I skimmed a few episodes till I found the answer (in Chupacabra). Turns out the conversation was with Dale, and Glenn says, "I was thinking that I might be dead tomorrow." Edited to add: Oops, looks like mandolin beat me to the punch. Guess that skimming I did took longer than I thought. ;)

LOL! Too true.

If they do indeed stray from the comics, my money's on Abraham. He's had a lot of character development all season, which is usually the kiss of death. Plus there's the whole "we may have 30 years here" and the making pancakes discussions with Sasha. And yes, the writers successfully manipulated me into finally liking Abe, even though we've seen this trick many times before and I should know better by now. They've been planting the seeds for different characters all season precisely to fuel this debate, manipulative bastards. Glenn for obvious reasons, plus the fake out death and the "people you've lost live on in your heart" discussion with Enid. Daryl getting his crossbow stolen from him not once, but twice. Maggie and Glenn making pancakes and Maggie's health issues; Carol's crisis of conscience and reluctance to kill; Morgan's all life is precious pontificating, turning a lot of the audience against him (another old trick in the TWD writers' handbook); etc. etc. Unless Carol dies from her injuries and/or the horse dudes end up being eeevul, neither of which I believe will be the case, I'm pretty comfortable saying they're safe. Beyond that, though... Fucking Gimple and Co. They have us right where they want us. :-P :-P :-P

LOL! Fair enough. I gotta say, Porch Dick and all the variants it spawned was one of Chris Hardwick's funniest quips on the show. Yes, the dude is a kind of a shill for AMC (and pretty much has to be). And I, too, miss the earlier days when there was more discussion, analysis and speculation and fewer free advertisements and pointless polls and Tweets (god I hate Twitter). But I firmly believe he's just as much a fan as we are and has his moments where his comments are on point and laugh out loud funny.

I finally rewatched TTD last night (I needed time before I could rewatch the finale and I needed to see it before watching this again in order to maintain my perspective) and for once Robert Kirkman didn't irritate the shit out of me. I've often found him smug and more than a little arrogant in previous appearances, and he is the absolute wrong choice to have on the couch with a major character who's just been killed off. I don't know if he's trying to lighten the mood or what, but his attempts at humor come off as really insensitive when the actor who just lost his/her job is sitting right there next to him. So I was pleasantly surprised by his thoughtfulness and restraint, even if, as Pete Martell noted above, I find his insistence that Rick is thisclose to being the Governor, Negan and every other bad guy who's made an appearance way off base and frankly annoying. I also didn't buy his spin spin spin justifying the cliffhanger, and to be honest, I'm not convinced he totally bought into it himself. Overall, it was pretty subdued and low energy for a post finale episode, and I'm sure the backlash has everything to do with it. The "technical difficulties" and mostly lame, superficial fan questions, not to mention the studio audience seemed much quieter and less enthusiastic than I've come to expect, suggests this was neither easy nor comfortable for Chris and the guests, particularly Kirkman and Gimple. I did really enjoy the "Who's Judith's going to grow up to be most like?" banter, especially Chris' "I think she's going to be just like Shane" (that joke never gets old for me) only to be topped by Kirkman, "Who said she's going to grow up?" That cracked me up. I also read the "You better call me Mr. Kirkman" to JDM as entirely a joke.

Ha! Me too. I have not been very productive all week. Precisely. He already knew Negan had him, as Abe so colorfully once said, by the short and curlies and then some (mother dick, I can't believe how many Abe-isms I've been using lately, but they've been more applicable to this episode than any other). The only defense Rick had left was to give Negan as little information or incentive than he already had to destroy Rick's people. Sadly, I agree. I really, really hate it, because Glenn has been one of my favorite characters from the very beginning. As one of, if not the first Asian American man on TV to play a vital, heroic and romantic lead who just happens to be Korean, he is also an important, groundbreaking character, especially for Asian Americans (myself included). His loss would be enormous, and not easily replaced. The way I see it, the victim is most likely a man. Seeing it from the victim's point of view, after the first blow, he seems to stagger back up. The only female character I could see having the physical and mental strength to manage that is Michonne, but I think she is too important to upcoming story lines and thus has plot armor. Furthermore, Negan's "taking it like a champ" seems like something one would say to a man. The Grimes men are out for a variety of reasons, including the line about feeding Carl's last eye to Rick if anyone moves. Aaron and Eugene aren't important enough (yet) to the group and the audience at large to have the devastating impact this individual's death is supposed to have to be a game-changer. This leaves Daryl, Abe and Glenn. Abe would be the "easiest" of the three to kill off if they wanted to avoid killing one of the Atlanta 5, but I still think the implication is this will be the group's biggest loss yet, and for that to be the case, that leaves Daryl and Glen. The loss of either would absolutely rock the group to its core. If I had to choose--not that I'd want to--I'd go with Daryl, in part because his presence as Rick's right hand man appears to have supplanted other characters who were originally intended to fulfill that role (according to those who read the comic). Plus I haven't seen that all much character growth from him since early on in the series so I'm not convinced the writers totally know what to do with him. But as has been discussed before, he is The Face of TWD and I just don't see AMC risking their cash cow right now. For these reasons, along with the excellent arguments you presented, that leaves poor Glenn as the last man standing. :`(

Taking this to the Season 7 Cliffhanger from Hell thread.

I would encourage you to watch it again (and in full if you can, heart-wrenching as it is), but don't do it until you're ready. I needed time to stew, vent and commiserate, and still more time to process and reflect after that before I was ready. I'm glad I waited, because I really would not have been able to appreciate how great so much of the episode truly was, most especially the actors' performances. I was with them this time, I felt their pain and fear, and it was heartbreaking. When it was over I thought, this is why I love this show. I couldn't agree more. Yes. Once the first big spoiler hits, it's going to get exponentially worse almost immediately. That's to be expected come, say mid-late August or September, but there's a good chance this time around it's going to start as soon as shooting starts, or even before. This fan base is relentless, and taking into account AMC's notorious stinginess, I just don't think they're going to be able to keep a lid on it. I agree the reality of social media shouldn't be the deciding factor in Gimple's choice. I'm just not sure he fully realized how stratospherically high he set that bar when he decided this was the best creative choice amongst all the available options. I'm with you. Michael and Josh have great chemistry on and off screen; their behind the scenes clips on TTD, especially this last one, were great. In one segment Josh said something about the work on the episode and ended it with "I love this job" (to which Michael concurred) and I got this huge smile on my face. This cast is so dedicated, and in Josh and Michael's case, their almost childlike enthusiasm is hugely appealing.

Took me a few days to watch the finale a second time, but now, knowing ahead of time I would be left hanging, it made it easier to focus on the rest of the episode. I have to admit I enjoyed it, if that's the right word, given its emotional intensity, much more the second time around. I really have to give props to the cast. Everyone acted their asses off. AL's performance was amazing and very much front and center in my first viewing. It was on the rewatch where I noticed the nuances of everyone's performance, particularly among the RV crew, their dread growing as their options shrank until, to their horror, they found themselves with nowhere to go, neck-deep up shit creek with their mouths wide open (a repulsive visual, Abraham, yet so apropos). Josh McDermitt and especially Michael Cudlitz were particular standouts. The look on Eugene's face the moment he decides to sacrifice himself to play decoy for the group (just before the "rust bucket" comment), his final words with Abraham and their hug, the deep breath and little smile just before he drives off. I never thought I'd put "subtle" and "Abraham" together in one sentence, but I loved how Abe served as a kind of barometer for the group's situation. You can see how rattled Rick's getting, but he still keeps trying to rally the troops even as his control slowly slips away and fear takes over. Abe is a loyal, brave soldier all the way to the end, but he sees the situation for what it is, maybe even before Rick does. It's he who gives Rick a reality check when there is no more back to go to. I find Michael Cudlitz attractive, but have never been attracted to Abraham, largely because I found him crude and the neon orange hair distractingly cartoony (though I do appreciate a man who can rock a handlebar mustache, as not many can ;). I've warmed up to him a lot this half season, but in the finale I finally got why Sasha fell for him. His bravery and courage was incredibly attractive. When the group realized they were done for, completely surrounded, he did not waver. As another poster noted upthread, it wasn't a "I ain't afraid of you; I spit in the face of danger" kind of bravado. His eyes were wide open. He knew they were in deep fucking shit. But he held it together, and I found myself looking to him for strength as they knelt, defeated, in a pathetic row. There are a lot of other things I appreciated much more the second time around, but since I spent so much time squeeing over Abraham and Eugene (I never thought I'd see the day I'd be writing these words), I'll stop here for now. I'm still not happy about the cliffhanger, for reasons I and others have already stated. Upon reflection, though, I acknowledge it is also in no small part because I don't want to be spoiled. By structuring the story in this way, given the intensity of the fandom, the nature of the internet and the assholes which populate it, TPTB have all but guaranteed I will be spoiled in some fashion come October, whether I like it or not. Their whole rationale for the cliffhanger revolves around providing the audience with a particular "experience". If I end up getting spoiled, I'm not likely to have the experience I want, and that sucks. That makes it hard to put my trust in them. But I will try.

Oops, I meant to say "moving forward" or "will continue to be" in the sentence you quoted. But yes, I agree she is having an effect on him just as much as he is on her. Their mutual realization was one of my favorite parts of the finale.

This whole comment is so insightful. I've been frustrated with Morgan myself all season and it was really bothering me because he's a great character and it seems like such a waste of LJ's talent. I felt like the writers were trying to turn viewers against him in order to kill him off at the end of the season. I was actually surprised, and relieved, when they didn't. Unlike some, I haven't had a problem with Carol's slide into self-doubt and despair and don't find it sudden or out of character. I actually found her character change/development in season 4 (where she kills Karen and David) more jarring; her newfound ruthlessness seemed to come from nowhere. I pretty much just shrugged my shoulders and went with it. So taking this recalibration into account, Carol's current crisis of conscience makes sense to me. I knew they were trying to draw a parallel between Carol's journey and Morgan's, but it was feeling a little hamfisted. Having read your thoughts, I will have to do a rewatch because your interpretation is much more nuanced than mine has been, and I did enjoy their story line in the finale. I do hope, as SevenStars mentioned, this relationship they've established is in service of both characters. Carol and Morgan both, and the actors who portray them, deserve good development and a nice meaty story line.

And I third it. Hot damn!

Those two scenes were among my absolute favorites in the episode. I watched that little interplay between Michonne and Denise in the infirmary with Carl many times over, just because it was so brilliantly acted. Michonne's rising panic contrasted with Denise's calm... Maybe she didn't realize it until that moment, but yeah, she loves Rick all right.

Live long and prosper! Of course we're not as bad as those fans! Those fuckers are unhinged. We're just mildly obsessed. LOL

Yes, really! I seriously chuckled when I read it and got a side-eye from my coworker and every-thang.

Kudos to whomever titled this thread. Brilliant. LOL

I agree. As a long-time Star Trek fan, I recognize and identify with a certain, shall we say, quirkiness to fandom. ;) But it seems like aspects of it has grown into this twisted monster in the Internet Age. Maybe it's because in the past if you were dissatisfied all you could do was complain to your friends, write a letter or turn the channel. Now we have instant access to thousands of others of like mind, and in a great many cases, the players themselves, creating a false sense of intimacy. Unfortunately, the power of social media is such that actors, producers, etc., have virtually no choice but to put themselves out there.

Oh, that's not good. Clearly I'm missing a decent chunk of what's going on in the fandom, because I avoid Twitter like the plague. IMO it represents one of the worst things about the internet, largely because it reduces everything into bite-sized chunks for easier consumption. It doesn't require people to think or offer anything substantive, and it (along with Facebook) feeds far too easily into the mob mentality you describe. I still think Scott could have chosen his words more carefully, especially considering the response, but it's certainly much more understandable. I'm sorry they're being subjected to that level of abuse; nobody deserves that. Edited to add: I agree people acting in the ways you describe does make it a lot easier for producers to write off fan complaints. A perfect illustration of constructive vs. destructive criticism. You've given me a lot to think about; thanks. :)

I swear somewhere on this board a poster mentioned a Variety interview with Scott Gimple discussing/defending the finale, but I can't find the post. Here's the link to the interview, though: http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-walking-dead-showrunner-interview-scott-gimple-season-6-finale-spoilers-1201745020/ While I still don't agree with their reasoning and am sure there's more than a little damage control at play here, I was softening up a bit as I read his responses. Yeah, maybe I'm a sucker for spin, but I'd like to believe it is more than just a business to the cast and crew. It's apparent to me that lot of love and dedication goes into creating this show, and the love and dedication of the fan base is a large part of what fuels it. But then he makes the parent/tantrum-throwing toddler analogy. Oh, Gimple. [facepalm] I get it, this is their baby and of course they aren't going to say, "Yeah, we really fucked up here." I also get that some, maybe even a lot, of the backlash could be characterized in the way he describes. But from what I have seen, the comments here are much more representative of overall fan response to the finale. There is disappointment and even anger, yes, but the criticisms I've read are largely reasoned and considered. Labeling disgruntled viewers in such a manner just pours salt on the wound and gets people even more worked up. And it's not exactly congruent with his insistence earlier in the interview about how much they respect their fans. I'm not calling for his head. I'm largely satisfied with Gimple's tenure as showrunner, and he's written what, IMO, are some of the series' finest episodes. It's natural and human to feel defensive when your work is criticized, doubly so when it's so high profile. But for fuck's sake, don't add fuel to the fire by calling your fans a bunch of crybabies. You can think it all you want, but another thing parents teach their children (or should be) is some thoughts are best kept to yourself.

LOL! We can only hope. This is at least the 3rd time they dipped from that particular well in Season 6B alone.

Very true. There's been much discussion about Rick's overconfidence and hubris, but my guess is that is applicable to Negan, tenfold. Negan's weakness is ruling by terror. It's been working for him in a big way thus far, and the Saviors we've encountered appear to have drunk the Kool Aid, but his people aren't loyal to him because he's family. He's never come across the likes of Rick and Co. before, though. He has no idea what they've been through, not to mention they are motivated by love for family. That alone gives them a major advantage over Negan. History has shown having something to fight for can overcome seemingly impossible odds. In the end, the Saviors will rue the day they fucked with CDB, assuming any of them will be left to tell the tale.

I would like that too, and he really is at his best when the shit hits the fan. It seems like he acts on instinct; maybe it's the cop in him. I've just never seen him looking so pale, frightened and impotent. Even in Terminus, when they had them kneeling over that trough, he didn't appear panicked. He was getting out of that situation, period. In the current situation, however, I fear this may be the first time where Rick is out of his depth. Of course I have faith they will ultimately prevail. :) It'll just take much longer, with a lot of bitter pills to swallow along the way. I will have to rewatch the episode and see if my interpretation of his reaction changes. I was so pissed off about the cliffhanger, for the first time I didn't watch the episode twice the same night. LOL