Sighed I

Nicely said. I totally agree.

Appealing to his heart. Interesting theory. May be...

Fair enough, and you're probably right. I guess I assumed that while they care about Gabriel a great deal, they can't fully trust him. Don't get me wrong; I like Gabriel a lot and it's very clear he cares for them deeply, like a father would. That's why he bends the rules from time to time and feels so guilty about lying to them. But he still works for the Center. I'm not saying he would, for example, kill them or have them killed. I suspect he wouldn't and might even help them, even if it costs him his life, but there's no way for E/P to know that for sure. I've always figured that plays in the back of their minds, so they hold back a bit when it comes to those things which make them particularly vulnerable, and nothing makes them more vulnerable than their kids. They didn't pull the trigger, or even arrange to have them killed, but they created the conditions by recruiting Jared against his parents' explicit wishes. For me that makes them responsible for the resulting carnage. It has been a while since I've seen the episode, so saying they had no problem with what happened was a poor choice of words. I understand on a personal level it was very upsetting. What I meant was that the Center decided recruiting this kid was a good idea and they were going to make it happen because they're right, they know better than his own parents. But they weren't right, and two important agents and their kids died because they had to do it their way. It reminds me a little of P/E feeling guilty about the people they've killed or whose lives they wrecked. They feel terrible about it, and might make minor adjustments to minimize the damage as best they can, but they can't change the fundamental elements or goals of the missions they're assigned and they continue to do as their told (with good reason, of course), despite whatever misgivings they might have. Whatever damage that results because of that choice will still be on them. The Center may be devastated by the loss of this family, and they've made adjustments with their recruiting of Paige as a result, but nothing's really changed. Despite the strong objections of at least one parent, they moved forward, business as usual. They say she has a choice, but when P/E objected to her being recruited, Claudia told them they were under orders to make it happen, or at least take steps in that direction. With the Connors dead and the loss of one potential recruit, they have even more incentive to get her on board. E/P have told her details about sensitive operations and Gabriel knows it. Would the Center still be okay with Paige saying no and walking away, knowing what she knows? How can they ensure she'll keep her mouth shut, especially after she already confided in Pastor Tim? What if, theoretically, her parents stayed on the job till she turned 18, and Paige comes to the conclusion that she doesn't want to live in Russia and decides to stay in the US. Would they wish her well and let her live her life in peace? Maybe she can say no to joining the KGB, but that doesn't mean the KGB doesn't own her ass either way. I guess that's what I mean by her having no choice. There's been so much great discussion and analysis in this thread (and others I've perused thus far) and I'm really enjoying reading everyone's take on things. It makes rewatching the episodes even more interesting, keeping an eye out for things others have mentioned, or looking at scenes or characters' actions from different perspectives. Glad I gave this subforum a peek.

I can see it as an affection for Gabriel and the points both of you have made do make sense. Maybe part of the problem is that I'm looking at these parental decisions from an American perspective. It still seems like they're putting a big ole target on Paige's back if she doesn't do what TPTB deem is the proper course of action. On the other hand, both kids have always had a target on their backs no matter what, based on what they did to that other spy family (whose name escapes me at the moment). The Center certainly had no problem with murdering a child. Paige has been kept ignorant of the fact that when it comes down to it, she doesn't actually have a choice in any of this short of going on the run and watching her back for the rest of her life. She doesn't understand the values her parents are fighting for are a lot more than making things equal for everyone. That the reality is inequality is very much alive and well in their system. That the individual doesn't matter, only the collective, so naturally anyone who gets in the way is fair game, even innocent people. Would Paige find that form of social justice moral, that the ends justify the means, including cold-blooded murder? I doubt it. I have generally assumed that at some point they are going to run, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the indoctrination is so strong it will supersede her parents' doubts and one day they're going to announce, "Henry, pack your things. We're actually Russian spies, not Americans, and it's time to return to the Motherland. We're totally burned out." That would suck (for me as a viewer), but I guess I can't totally dismiss it. Paige was sooo scared. Holly Taylor did really well in that scene. I'm not sold either. I have rooted for E/P pretty much from the beginning, despite everything, but there really is a lot of hypocrisy in what they say they believe in and what they actually do to achieve those goals. One of the things I do love about this show is how it forces the viewer to think. The issues it raises are complex and messy with a huge helping of cognitive dissonance, but that's why I love it.

You know, the posters who have mentioned the creepiness of E/P bringing Paige to meet Gabriel make a very good point. My initial reaction was surprise and a bit of confusion, but seeing as it was an actual development in her story I was thinking, okay, cool, something different is happening. So what was the purpose of introducing her to Gabe? It does seems strange, given the Center's interest in Paige and the shaky ground both E & P are on about the rightness of what they are doing (even if E has been able to hide it so far). If they're not even sure about their own lives, why would they subject her to this (I'm especially looking at you, Philip)? To my mind the more entrenched she gets into their secret world, the more stuck she's going to be to take the path TPTB have set out for her. Paige already feels boxed in with what she knows and how this impacts her current/future relationships. Now they're making her isolation even more profound. With the way they are handling Paige and Henry right now, E/P are making a lot of very questionable parenting decisions. I know having kids was a pretty selfish thing to do in the first place--their purpose being to provide cover--but I've never questioned whether they loved their kids. But good lord they are fucking up big time. You'd think after learning about Henry's affinity for math it would be a sign that you know, maybe we need to work on connecting with our son more. It's funny with all they do to manipulate others, taking on personas to gain the trust of their marks, they are just totally clueless when it comes to Henry especially, and he lives with them and has been his entire life!

It's funny, isn't it? He's so focused on himself and his own suffering that he can't even see he is doing to his son(s) exactly what was done to him. It's great to see a Star Trek alumnus doing so well outside the franchise. I'm sure there are a lot perks and long-term income opportunities from conventions alone, but it must be difficult to get out from under such an iconic series. So many of them disappear or become bit players, which is a shame because many of the actors are excellent. When your job is to blend seamlessly into the culture you're spying upon, I don't know how it doesn't rub off on you at least to some degree, at least if you're not Claudia. ;) I've always assumed that the handlers haven't been home in decades either, maybe even most of their lives, so I'd think they would be just as susceptible as their charges to the influences of daily living in the States. The inscription on the memorial says: In this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union, the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever. Is he admiring, however begrudgingly, Lincoln, or perhaps there is a parallel to the sacrifice he and the other illegals are making to save their own Union? LOL!!! What an excellent idea, and a shame they didn't go this route. The weakest thread in this show for me has been Paige's arc. I don't know if it's the acting, the writing or both, but it feels like a lot of running in place. I liked the final scene where she and Gabriel see each other for the first time, so I'm glad something different is happening to move this part of the narrative forward. I agree. If anything I think he was trying to ease Philip's mind. Like yes, there's a good chance your father was a monster, but someone had to do that job. We all make sacrifices for the greater good (even if kills the spirit and leaves you a withered husk).

I haven't read the thread yet but I wanted to write down my initial impressions first. My apologies if I repeat what others have said. I loved this episode, and it was directed by B'Elanna Torres! You go girl! Very introspective and character driven with great performances all around. It explained a lot of why we haven't learned much about Philip's past; he has few memories of it, and what he does remember of it are negative or lies. No wonder he's so "shaky". Everybody's been lying to him his whole life. He tries to be what others want him to be because he doesn't know who he is. I wanted to give Philip a hug. Elizabeth's cracking as well. I like Ben and how he's getting to her, but then I have a soft spot for crunchy granola guys. Her guilt over using this good man is reminding her of Young Hee and the devastation she caused a good woman and her family. I liked how she did tai chi and saw a shrink, both things she could use right about now. I know she was putting on an act but it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell where the persona ends and the person begins, especially with E & P. It's kind of like EST with Philip, except he's actively seeking answers. Elizabeth is too, she just hasn't figured it out yet. I do hope she finds a way to pull out of the mission with Ben or at least minimize the damage. Elizabeth gets a lot of flack for being unfeeling and cold. She can be and is both, but at her core she's a still waters kind of person. Philip's anguish is so palatable I sometimes overlook Elizabeth's emotional journey. It's been incremental and a bit more under the surface, but she is not the same person she was in season one, by a long shot. Meanwhile, Philip, the one who's so emotive and think we know better was actually the cypher all along. I liked how they shot the conversation between E & P in the Camaro with the focus alternating between speakers. It was subtle but very effective. Gabriel at the Lincoln Memorial was beautifully done as well. Gabriel looked so worn out and weak; I could feel the guilt oozing from his pores. Great acting by Frank Langella. I'm sorry to see him go. I wonder if they'll find a way to keep him in the story line or if this is goodbye. The first domino to fall? I wonder if he'll ultimately cave? My guess is if he tells anyone it'll be Elizabeth. Since she knows Philip better than anyone he'll leave it on her to decide. Kind of a dick move, putting that weight on her. But in the context of the situation, if he does I think it'll be because he's trying to right a wrong. I'm glad he told Philip to watch his back. Maybe I've watched too much Forensic Files, but I was like, pull out all the damn tape before you burn it, Oleg! I guess he's feeling relatively safe after the no-shows; I'm glad he figured it out. I wonder if the investigation about the produce is going to lead to his father? And if that happens and he is exposed, is Oleg's life going to get a whole lot less comfortable and privileged? Liked learning more about Henry. It's funny how we learn more about him from his scenes with Stan than almost any others (I did like his harrowing adventure hitchhiking with Paige as well). Not that he's had many scenes. I wonder if that's about to change. I feel like he's a wild card in all this. Hated seeing poor Mischa coming off the plane, somber and defeated. So brave and making it through all that danger only to be sent back with nothing. Now that we know Philip's family is considered untrustworthy, we assume they'll be keeping a close eye on them both, not that they ever weren't, I'd guess. But I'm worried about his safety, and Philip's. I'm sure there are flaws or nitpicks and things I've missed that I'll think of later, but in all I enjoyed this episode a lot, from beginning to end. I love this show. It really is one of the best I've ever watched. A few missteps aside, the overall quality from acting to writing and directing, plot to theme, has been consistently excellent. Keep it up people!

Yes. On the one hand, Philip's conscious certainly makes things more complicated on the work front. On the other, it makes him trustworthy in a way that no one else can be for her. He's really the only one she knows, without question, will have her back, and their children's. And as mucked up as things are with Paige and Henry, they would be infinitely worse without Philip's moderating influence (even if he did totally blow the "I'm proud of you" moment he should have had with Henry). When the only person she can really trust is expressing doubts, I think she can't help but feel doubt as well. She's just better at hiding it because it comes more naturally to her. KR's acting is so masterful because I can see the struggle in her eyes and face. I feel like the writers want the viewers to wonder if Elizabeth will ultimately betray Philip, and there are times when I wonder about it myself. But more and more I'm becoming convinced that Elizabeth would sacrifice herself rather than betray him. Before they were fighting for a righteous cause. Philip reminds her that there is a human element that cannot be ignored, lest you become the monster you are fighting.

I don't know why, but I get the feeling Elizabeth will be the one who finds out about Mischa. I'm not sure whether she'll be as outraged as Philip--I agree he will lose it when he finds out--but coming on the heels of them being wrong about the wheat, I could see it being another chink in the armor. The True Believer part of herself could understand and perhaps even agree with Claudia's reasoning; at the same time, as she and Philip have become closer, I think he's opened her eyes of how high a price their way of life has and continues to cost them. By hiding/lying about Mischa, their handlers are demonstrating that they don't trust P/E. After everything they've sacrificed for the cause, I'd think even Elizabeth would see the move as a serious betrayal, especially after Claudia put them through the ringer before, testing their loyalty. This is how I interpreted her reaction as well. She does feel badly about killing the guy, and it bothers her that the Center was wrong about the wheat, but she isn't going to flog herself over collateral damage, no matter how regrettable (Yung Hee excepted perhaps). She was worried about Philip and what it would do to him. She knows it will devastate him, and even though I don't think she always understands the degree of Philip's angst, it pains her to see him suffering. I saw her offer as wanting to do something to lighten his burden in a situation where they have very few options. I started watching this show last year during this arc. I'd gotten home for work, turned on the TV and it happened to be on. I rarely pick up heavily serialized shows midseason, let alone mid-episode, but I was sucked in almost immediately and spent the next couple of weeks catching up on previous seasons. I even joined Amazon Prime so I could watch the whole thing. All this from two thirds of "The Rat". :) I have faith, and am enjoying this season too, though I get what people are saying about it being slow. Things are simmering. I'm feeling as tense as the characters in their respective situations as I watch all the pieces move into place and wait for the inevitable. I was terrified for Mischa during his escape and am worried about what is going to happen to him now; I hadn't expected to be that invested in his story line but I'm rooting for him (and the actor looking like he could be the offspring of MR is a nice bonus). I love Oleg and am enjoying the Moscow story line much more than I thought I would and especially like his relationship with his mother (incredible acting on both of their parts). I guess I'm not in a hurry for the shit to hit the fan because I know it won't end well for the vast majority (if not all) of our characters. Despite everything they've done, I can't help but root for these people. I want them to have a happy ending (such as it is) but I know they can't and won't get one. So yeah, I'm definitely invested and the pacing is working for me, though I do miss characters like Nina, Arkady, Martha and Gaad. I agree. Elizabeth would kill herself before she'd kill Philip's son. That's because Elizabeth sees the bigger picture...or at least that's what she tells herself. In the end, what is the life of one lab tech compared to the safety and security of the Motherland? She can't afford to ask herself uncomfortable questions, especially with Philip falling apart before her eyes because he is asking those questions. If they're going to survive, someone has to be the "strong one" and suck it up.

As someone owned by a feline, the imagery this brought up made me LOL!! I have really got to stop reading this forum at work.

Speaking for myself, I did say in last week's thread that I would be shocked if the GPK didn't screw over CDB. :) As to your other point, it's actually something I struggle with a bit. There's a lot I like about this show, and sometimes I wonder if focusing on its weaknesses has diminished my enjoyment of the things I do like. That's why I appreciate reading posts from those who really liked the episodes just as much as the more critical comments. At its core, my biggest problem with the show right now is I hate this Negan story line and the gymnastics taking place to justify dragging it out far beyond its sell-by date. The showrunners, on the other hand, are completely enamored with this character. All signs point to Negan sticking around for *at least* another whole season. I wish I could find the post, but someone upthread listed all the things which had to take place in order for Negan *not* to be taken out by now, despite there being multiple opportunities. It's like they're neutering competent characters in order to stretch out a story line that doesn't translate to screen very well. I *think* this season is supposed to have taken place over the course of two or three weeks. The problem is, the pacing has been so poor it *feels like* it's been much longer than that. That makes it difficult, for me anyway, to empathize with Rosita, for example, even though I know she, along with everybody else, is in shock. They've been switching around timelines without being clear about when certain things are taking place, so I find myself repeatedly wondering how one character was in *x* location and now all of a sudden (s)he's in *y* location. They've played with timelines before, but I never had so much trouble keeping track of the chronology of events. I don't mind episodes where they focus on a few characters. The problem is most of the season has been comprised of these types of stories, or at least it feels that way to me. Whereas in previous seasons these "slower" (or single group/location) episodes added depth to characters and/or filled in narrative gaps, they're doing it so much now it just grinds the forward momentum to a halt. I'm not getting the opportunity to connect with characters I care about or are interested in because we only see them once every four or five episodes. Some of the pacing problems could have been alleviated simply by editing the stories differently, e.g., by taking two or three episodes and cutting between stories and locations instead of wasting an entire episode on Tara, for example, when it could (and should) have been the B-story of another, thematically related parallel story line. All that being said (and back to the episode at hand), I liked Sasha's swansong. I interpreted the flashbacks with Abraham as a combination of actual memories and her own subconscious coming to terms with her impending death. I believe she did have this conversation with Abraham, but her fear of his imminent demise seemed particularly acute, so much so I felt it had to be as much about her being afraid of dying, knowing it was coming, and soon, as it was wishing she could have prevented Abe's death. Reading comments like these doesn't help when you're trying to read incognito at work, particularly when you laugh and choke on coffee at the same time. Well played, sir. ;)

Sasha failed in her initial mission but still managed to help turn the tide and pulled off one of the most peaceful deaths yet on this show; I liked seeing Abraham too. With all the rumors about Chandler possibly leaving the show, I have to admit I was expecting Carl to die. Glad I was wrong. Yay Shiva! I will ignore your uncanny ability to only attack bad guys. Shocked the GPK turned on them. NOT. I wonder if they were the Little Birdies who tipped Negan off? If so, what's Gregory up to? I know Eugene's just trying to survive and wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, but I didn't like him offering to help Negan. Did he really think Rick & Co. would be persuaded to stand down? He just looked like a traitor. I liked the scene between Morgan and Carol. I wondered who was going to talk first; it was fitting when neither did. I also enjoyed the scenes with the Kingdom people; for me they are the bright spot in an otherwise underwhelming season. During really tense scenes, particularly when I expect a "big death", I jump to my feet and pace a bit. I don't do it on purpose; it's just a nervous reaction. I have to admit I did it a couple of times during this episode. As a whole, though, this was probably my least favorite season finale. Despite all the gunfire and "action", not a lot actually happened. Actually, that's a decent way to describe the season as a whole.

RE: taking the guns, you, along with others, have made good points. For me it isn't so much that they took the guns as it was the way they did it. Someone upthread suggested Tara approaching Cindy (can't remember the funky spelling they're using for this character) first, and I agree doing it that way might have mitigated the need to waste explosives and bullets. If it didn't, then go to Plan B. I guess it bugs me that they gave those stupid trash dwellers the benefit of the doubt when nothing indicates they are the least bit trustworthy (I'll be surprised if they don't screw our group over once they have Guns. Lots.), yet it didn't occur to them to try contacting the one person at Oceanside Tara knew was trustworthy. I understand Rick didn't want to waste time, but he did indicate he was willing to take the time to talk. I just think coming in and pointing a gun at the leader's head right at the onset isn't particularly conducive to persuading them to join the cause. Yes, they had to have their guns, but they need soldiers too. If Jerry or Shiva dies because now there aren't enough Red Shirts to fill the writers' body count quota I am going to be...grrrr. You better not do it Gimple, you bastard! As to Sasha and Eugene's scenes, I liked them quite a bit myself. Both actors have done a fine job throughout their tenure on the show, even when the writing hasn't done their characters justice.

I assumed Maggie and Gregory's scenes were happening at the same time as Rick's group's, but that's mostly because we didn't see Enid and Jesus at Hilltop during those scenes. I'm still leaning toward Negan reading between the lines of Simon and Gregory's last conversation, but it could very well be what you said as well. As an aside, I have to say I was relieved (and a little amused) by Sasha's response to Negan's fishing expedition. It was a clever way of deflecting. Both she and Rosita, blinded by their own desire for revenge, wanted to "get the job done" right now and were clearly frustrated by the delays, even once Rick was on board with fighting back. Tapping into that frustration made her response more convincing, given that she does know Rick is up to something.

Maybe he was referring to Gregory's conversation with Simon? While the Saviors don't have definitive proof Hilltop is in cahoots with Alexandria, the timing between the demand for Gregory's head in exchange for the Hilltopian hostage and CDB's attack on the satellite location is way too convenient to ignore.

This was my problem with it. They couldn't leave them with a couple of empty guns in the name of goodwill for a potential ally? Yes, they need firearms, and lots of them, to fight the Saviors. Given how outnumbered they are, however, it's going to take A LOT more than guns to prevail. If two or three fewer makes the difference between victory and defeat, they might want to rethink their strategy. I agree. I understand what the writers were getting at, but the way they went about it just really felt out of character. It's like the writers are changing characters as needed to get the plot from A to B instead of letting them be who they are and arriving at the same destination organically. Instead of being provocative, it comes across as lazy writing. LOL! Maybe the blacksmith fashioned a flat iron for Jesus. ;)

Well, I can't say that was the most gripping penultimate episode, mostly because I'm having a hard time with the way they took Oceanside's weapons. IMO 7B was a big improvement over the first half of the season, not that it would take a lot to accomplish. That said, there's only been a handful of episodes in this half season I really enjoyed, and "Bury Me Here" was the only one from beginning to end where I got the "now this is the Walking Dead I remember" feeling. I do like the Kingdom and its cast of characters, though, so there's that. Thing is, prior to this season I liked most episodes in each season; this is the first time, for me, they've had more clunkers than good (never mind great) ones. As a long time, loyal fan of this show, that really sucks. :( Anyway, I suspect Sasha will try to figure out a way to poison Negan, but of course it won't work. The question is, will she die by her own hand or someone else's? They could've handled Dwight's character development a lot better than they did. They made him too much of a villain, and by the time they started the redemption arc, a lot of viewers had already lost sympathy for him. As for myself, I don't mind him or Sherry toooo much, and from a strategic standpoint, having a defector, particularly one of Negan's right hand men, is extremely valuable. Besides, anything to get the Saviors off this show sooner rather than later is a plus in my book. ;) I am disappointed Eugene does indeed appear to have joined the dark side. It is in line with his character, though, and given the situation he's in, I do understand going along to get along. I think he'll have a crisis of conscience once fighting breaks out and he's forced to use his talents against CDB, but I guess I'd hoped he'd been more conflicted about it prior to the shit hitting the fan.

I knew it! I had a feeling it was Dwight, even after seeing the screen shot last week! Yay me! ;)

Well, there's Rosita. Differing timelines confirmed.

Well, Sasha's expression suggests she's bluffing. I was confused before that, because if she wanted to kill herself, she just had a big ass knife to do the job!

The way they are handling this is kind of shitty. I understand having a backup plan, but couldn't they have tried diplomacy without the guns first (or at least with guns down)?

I do believe she was a guest star on an episode of Deep Space Nine (the episode "Sanctuary"?), so there is a Star Trek connection!

Glad it's not just me! You have a point. And it just occurred to me that they could be playing around with the timeline and Rick's group's mission is happening some day(s) later.

Hard to keep up with the thread, so my apologies if this was addressed before, but I see Daryl with Rick's group. So does that mean the person Rosita saw at the end of last week's episode was actually Dwight and the screen shot of Daryl was some sort of misdirection?

I'm not crazy about seeing someone's head get bashed in either, and knowing what's coming is probably contributing to my reduced enthusiasm for the premiere. Personally, I don't think they're going to be showing any restraint. They have a lot to prove tonight, and I suspect their idea of "raising the bar" to make up for/justify the cliffhanger means all out gore fest. I hope I'm wrong, though. Guess we'll find out soon enough.