HalcyonDays

You counted! I love you Topanga! That's best, and probably how many times *I* rolled my eyes. I mean, the stupid, it hurts. Beharie must have needed her own aspirin because of all of the side-eye! Apparently they don't. Apparently they are "shocked" at the ratings drop, shocked that people are complaining about the show and are clueless as to why. Yet this whole media thing blew up like two weeks ago. Seriously, they had no intern/minion checking weekly on the reviews of the show since day 1? The only good thing; if they decide to change things, the show is very good as last minute writing/filming. I expect the back half 6 episodes will be going through drastic rewrites. And this is all writing. In some interview somewhere, Mison said that they do not improvise; they rehease the scene many times but don't change the dialogue. This is what I said in Deliverance; it's complete character assassination for all those around. Powerful shady witch? Okay, let's make her NOT shady, never discuss her lies, and have her faint and be unable to perform magic time and time again, and be replaced by Abbie (not that having Abbie do magic is a bad thing, but you know what I mean.) Let's have an extremely intelligent man who values integrity, honour, honesty and duty, but have have him lose every brain cell the moment his wife walks in, and backstabs his witness partner over and over again. Abbie not afraid to speak her mind? Let's have her remain silent over and over, when you know she never would. Thanks writers. The path was right there for them to take. Embrace the shady Katrina, have her play both sides, have Ichabod struggle over this, and have Katrina PLAYING Ichabod over the redemption; he is against it but he keeps getting enchanted by Katrina. Have Frank still suspect of murder but not locked away at Tarrytown. He is still at his job, but trust for him is lost because of the charges, which are dubious (the evidence itself on the show is dubious - no police would ever charge him). Have Jenny maybe drawn into the Irving family drama, somehow link it to her past, but have her help him. Do NOT sideline her. At the same time, make the impact of War and Death together much more taxing on the town, the people, ec, on a grander scale. Have no love-sick Headless; he would have been better off fighting for favour with Moloch, but NOT mooning over Katrina. And he wouldn't have too, because she is already chosen the dark side. Then throw in some crazy-ass twist, and you are done!

Sorry about that - the links were being stupid for some reason. Links updated and tested! If you get a chance, listen to the video below (it actually is audio only). It's good too. SH talk starts around 32 minute mark, for about 20 minutes.

Honestly, I think the whole SH season 2 problems stem from the show trying to showcase John Noble. Back when TwoP was running, and John Noble was cast, most people seemed excited about it, because they were Fringe fans (I've never watched it). One poster in particular however was against the casting. I remember her saying that she thought it was a big mistake. Orci and Kurtzman were involved with Fringe and loved Noble but apparently were upset or at least annoyed that he didn't get the Emmy they thought he deserved. She said that the casting of Noble on SH was simply a way to make an attempt at the Emmy. I didn't know anything about the actor, but he is really good. Looking back, I think she was dead right. I think this is where the show first went wrong. The whole Noble arc is what started it all. They want to get him an Emmy, right? So they need to showcase his acting talent, and one way to do this is to manufacture drama, drama and more drama. And what better way to do this, then to kick off with the Crane family drama. The whole arc of Jeremy/Henry started during the episode Sanctuary, and we started complaining about Crane being an jerk to Abbie, being side-lined, he mooning over the wife, because she was featured more, and she was featured more because she is the mother of Henry. Season 2 starts, and they needed to continue with Evil Henry, continue giving him material to showcase his skills. So how to do that - insert more Crane family drama, which led to more Katrina, more baby BS, more angst from Crane, etc. That comment from this poster had stuck in my mind since I think October-ish of 2013 (whenever Noble was cast). It's obviously just an opinion, but I really do think this is where the show really truly went wrong - trying to insert a really wonderful actor into a narrative, simply in order to showcase his surperior acting prowess (He is good), and in order to do so, they had to manufacture Crane Family Drama. This meant that now Katrina would inevitably have to take a more prominent role, since Henry is their son, and in turn, Crane had to become more of a jerk, because they decided to push redemption, which makes Crane and Katrina come off as idiots, and ends up also sidelining Abbie, who knows better, all so that you could get those Crane vs. Henry scenes. Then they somehow had to manipulate Headless and others things to revolve around Nobel. Henry/Jeremy is too cartoonish. There is too much Katrina. To insert Katrina, but to keep her from Crane/Abbie, they made Headless "human", and then somehow decided to add more baby storylines, to keep Katrina around, but away from Ichabbie, but they have to keep Katrina around also because of the redemption storyline, but then they have to then connect her to Headless, who was in love with Katrina, who...(see what I mean). Again, this is just my opinion, but I really think that by forcing John Noble on us, and wanting to write around him and possibly secure him this elusive Emmy, they ended up creating a SH-verse that is starting to implode on itself. The problems are all connected to trying to build a story around Henry/Jeremy. Funny how the season 1 finale was such an amazing thing that very few saw coming, but by now making season 2 about War (and showcasing Noble), they have destroyed it. All to (again, my opinion) secure the Emmy that he was so unjustly denied for his role on Fringe. Man, this was long-winded.

Hey Everyone. Just a reminder that this thread is intended to discuss what we would like to see, if the show (hopefully) gets a season 3. THIS thread - is to discuss the differences between the seasons, which of course also includes what went wrong overall. Please continue the discussion over there, SVP, especially since media themselves are discussing the same things this week. Most appreciated.

I think just three more - till December 1st. Then it breaks till January. Fantastic article by the Huffington Post. Where did Sleepy Hollow go wrong in Season 2.

I rewatched that part, and I could not see any teal, save maybe the corset the Succubus was wearing was teal, but the lighting made it hard to tell. The head tilt is there, and you can see Crane's reaction (eye's widening), but I think it's more a reaction to Lilith's (the Succubus' names) eyes going yellow, then to the Abbie head tilt. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. Other miscellanous parts that I did like...Hawley's comments for sure. Crane (in nightclub): "Is that clear?" Hawley: "Like Vodka." His crack about not having her for breakfest. Joking that he didn't think Crane could handle a gun! This is NOT a shipper thing, but the final scene with Crane and Hawley - dammit, even they have more chemistry than Katrina and Ichabod. They have a nice vibe between them (buddy vibe!), that I really liked. I would like to see more of those two together (just like I would love to see more Jenny/Ichabod scenes). Abbie actually called Katrina condescending (which she was). Good job, Abs! Tell it like it is. All of Abbie's facial expressions. Pure Gold. I don't think I've ever seen such a facially expressive actress like Beharie before. It's amazing how one look can convey so much...She is so done with Katrina it's not funny. Even at the end, when Katrina is saying she is difficult (no, really?), and Abbie says something nice to her, then Katrina says something about saving Henry, again, Abbie rolls her eyes and is like "How can you be so dumb!" Beautifully done.

No, the 2.33 and 2.31 index is SpoilerTV's cancellation Index for the entire show, not an individual episode. So they rank a show on how likely it will be cancelled. 2.40 or above means that is most likely will be cancelled. Below that, they think it's safe for the season. So yesterday, SH was still at 2.33 (same as last week) in terms of "Will it be cancelled?" It dropped today, but by dropping, they site is saying that it's more safe from cancellation. Zap2It went the opposite direction, going from "100% sure it will be renewed" to "Yeah, it'll probably be renewed...." That's why I thought it was a typo. After this Monday's low ratings, it would be more in risk of cancellation. If I understand it correctly, the DVR +3 numbers are how many people DVR the episode three days after it airs, so we shouldn't know yet the DVR numbers, because it hasn't been three days yet.

Last season, reviews mentioned that anytime the show switched to Katrina, the pace ground to a halt. This year, because she is so present, it's glaringly evident. That yoga scene is a great example. Cold open, "you're like what the heck is going on?", good banter back and forth. Then Crane sits down, looks all sad-puppy-eyed and Abbie says "Katrina." My reaction: God, not again. The dynamic now changes, the mood changes, we roll our eyes and it grinds to a halt. Change of scene, Ichabbie at a pub, Ichabod chugging a beer, the toast, Abbie amused and some friendly teasing. If it wasn't for that moment of mooning over Katrina, that entire cold open would have been perfect. And I noticed it in other episodes. Everything is going swimmingly, then Katrina is mentioned and the scene's mood is completely ruined. Now this is interesting. SpoilerTV also predicts cancellations. Yesterday they had the cancellation index at 2.33 for Sleepy Hollow. Anything under 2.40 is considered safe. Today, it's 2.31. So it's more safe. Hmm..wonder if that's a typo.

DAMN!!! I didnt even catch these and I do read her twitter!! (some really interesting costume information). Is the Succubus wearing a teal shirt? Ugh - looks like I will have to rewatch this episode. Nice catch, Southern Girl. She also tweeted this: Hee. Too bad she is leaving the show. I totally agree. I have no idea why they did this (actually, I do know why), but is does make it creepy. Now what if Jenny and Hawley fooled around a little ("macked on each other") but never slept together because it they just weren't that into each other, would that work? I mean, they could have written it as a drunken thing, but nothing happened. So history with Jenny, but no creepy with Abbie. And Crane is not learning words properly anymore. If I am not mistaken, macking means making advances or even making out with someone else. It does NOT mean having sex with them. Yet Abbie says "get lucky, get some, etc." Well, that's not what macking means. Poor guy is getting incorrect definitions of modern slang now.

I do want a season 3. If the backhalf of the season can somehow - somehow - resolve the mess from the front half, give some answers and move on, then I am here for it. I want to see Crane, Abbie, Jenny and Irving on TV. Even Hawley is good. The rest can go, even Reyes, because Irving needs his job back. I would not be surprised if it is cancelled, but I will be sad. Really sad. I would like to see the show expand it's base a bit. I remember reading in the spring that they might shoot in London, and I was hoping to have Crane and Abbie on a plane. There was also talk about them going to downtown New York City, but this season seems so much more shielded from everything around them than even last season. The small town seems so much smaller.

Here is your thread to discuss whether there should be a Sleepy Hollow season 3 Now that we have a season 3, what would you like to see happen in the show. There will be 18 episodes, so lots of story development times and with significant deaths and a new showrunner, there is a great opportunity to make the show great. It's like a series reboot! Let you minds run wild!

I disagree with this part....That cold open in which she and Ichabod (Tom Mison) sat transfixed by a Bachelor-esque reality show? Delightful! Let’s get more of that, please. No more, please.... Moar Jenny. Moar Irving. Moar Ichabbie. Moar Scary/Creepyness.

I'm debating on rewatching it on demand, because in my irritation I deleted it from my DVR, but I might be tempted. BTW, this is a person who kept half of season 1 on her DVR for nine months, for rewatches (I actually only rewatched once or twice, but couldn't bear to delete them. Don't ask). Now - DVR is SH empty. Last week the general consensus seemed to be anger. This week, everyone is just plain sad. You and me both, Mia Nina. I cringe too whenever the name Katrina is said, or the word wife. It started last season, actually. How can a man with such an amazing, mesmerizing voice - a voice that currently was used to narrate Washington Irvings Sleepy Hollow, AND on a phone app - say that one word, and it makes my hackles rise. It's part of the problem with the entire season, and what I consider character assassination for Crane and Katrina (well, her not too sure, due to her shady behaviour), but they decided that Henry's life is more important than the millions of people on earth. They decided to play god, and decide that Henry was worth more than all of his victims who ended up dying - which another two people were added to the list this episode. While they are dawdling, people are dying.

I totally agree. Completely. That article, I knew Abbie for Hawley and Katrina for Ichabod, though it made no sense to me. How can Katrina be his hidden desire, or thing he's hiding. However, on another site, someone pointed out that "she could sense the desire he was trying to deny and also the doubt in his heart." The desire in his heart - Abbie, and the doubt in his heart - Katrina. And now I remove my shipper goggles. :') In terms of other shows mouth-watering over the chemistry, totally agree. Again, some other network needs to sign on Beharie and Mison onto a new show, preferrably a romantic comedy. It would be awesome. I don't mind Hawley either. I don't like Jenny being shoved out of the screen either, but Hawley is pretty amusing to me and he has a nice chemistry with Abbie, and good interactions with Crane. And he is good looking, but Mison is more my type. ETA: Damn, the head costume designer - Kristen Burke - is leaving the show too. Is the writing on the wall already? Do they know something that we don't (i.e. they know it's the end). Damn, her costuming is amazing.

Zap2it downgrades Sleepy Hollow's renewal index from Certain renewal to Likely renewal. *sigh*

tv echo, dammit, go write for the show and save this season. I love this idea. Love it.There was so much potential. Jenny a hidden witch that Katrina works with and develops her powers. Katrina an actual powerful witch. They could've gone the evil route. But no, instead we have swooning 18h century redheads, Ichabod being dumb as rocks and Abbie not being able to fully voice her displeasure (though this episode did a good job). And you cannot replicate that type of chemistry (Mison and Beharie), simply by writing a similar scene. Thinking again of that "dancing" scene - look at how effortless the interactions were between Ichabod and Abbie. So effortless and connected and all of that. The cold opening? Shudder. This episode was written by Albert Kim, who is a Mark Goffman - ie. someone who wants to push Katrina to the forefront. There you go. And seriously...So Katrina is just going to nonchalantly raise this baby, no questions asked. The writers must think we are really stupid. I didn't initially see it (maybe it was my disgust and confusion) but seeing a couple of gifs on the internet - The Succubus does a head tilt just like Abbie does, her eyes go yellow and then Crane's eyes go wide, because he realizes Abbie is in there too...Damn...Too bad we'll never get there.

It's a wig. I think they couldn't keep the colour on Katia Winter's hair consistent - and it probably ruined her hair, so they went with a wig this season. Her own hair is chin length and blonde. Is that what is was? Why does that actually make me feel a little ill? So what, his sex drive is dimimished by the doubts about his wife? Well, at least he has some honour left in him. And yeah, he hides it so well that he sits on the bed, stiff everywhere but where it would count, and watches TV. True love, eh? But definately not lust. Once again the show tells me, but they don't show it. But in this case, I am actually grateful.

Marginally better than last week. Marginally better. Katrina is a "highly skilled operative." Skilled at what, swooning? Not completely magic spells? Being unable to detect a bloody hex? Undermining Abbie? Complementing Abraham on his quince tea? The hell? The only thing she is good at is manipulating Ichabod. How on earth is this supposed to be a powerful witch? Seriously? She can't detect the hex in the room. She can't complete a spell, so the Witness who does not (yet) have full witch powers, has to complete it? She can't stick her hand into a jar of creepy crawlies. Okay, I get that it freaked her out, but she is supposed to be a witch!! Witches make potions...you know, eye of newt, toe of frog, type of stuff. Katrina is so WEAK. She gets a vision, starts swooning and Ichabod has to cart her off like she is made of fragile glass. Dear god. Katrina's coven didn't kick her out for "saving" Ichabod, they kicked her out because couldn't do magic if her life depended on it, and kept fainting all of the time. That's the real reason. The Abbie eye-rolling was classic this episode. Classic. Loved her calling out Katrina on the whole Henry thing. The audacity of this witch to say "It's my son, my decision." Please. Also, when Kat asked about more reality TV, and Abbie has no time for her and just shuts her down. Remember, this is a woman who put post-it notes all over the motel room for Crane. She - and I - are so done with useless Katrina. Oh, and Kat having Abbie tell Ichabod that she is leaving. That's true love...? *dear god*. Terrible. Weak. Cowardly. Like others, if I have to hear Ichabod mooning over Katrina again "The love of my life"..I'll scream. And I'm still angry that he hasn't called out his wife on her lies upon lies upon lies. And the love of your life can't even say goodbye to you. Nice. I miss Jenny big time - she should have been there along side Abbie, slamming that useless witch down and joining in the eye rolls and throwing out some sarcastic shade. Thought the Succubus was really good - the mimicking was spot on. Nicely done Caroline Ford. I really do like Hawley - I know its skeevy that he was with Jenny before, but I still like him. It's funny, he can easily be part of Crane and Abbie and NOT grind everything to a halt. Put Katrina in there - it's just wrong on so many levels. Just terrible. In some interview a while back, I think Mison made some comment that Katrina changes the dynamic of the Witnesses, and Katia herself changes the dynamic between Mison and Beharie. Does she ever... Having Abbie say "yes Kat, you are valuable?" Please writers. How many eye rolls did Beharie have when she read the script? Same with Mison at having to say "She's a highly trained operative." They must have cringed when they read the script the first time. The words that Ichabod said about Katrina and Abbie being returned to him - I'm sorry, but rang so hollow to me. Nice that he remembered Abbie. The last two weeks have destroyed my love of Ichabod (I still love you, Tom Mison!) and his flowery words to Abbie mean nothing to me now. He is going to have to do a lot of work to rise back up to his pre-Deliverance levels. That little "wouldn't you like to see me dance" line left me cold. Someone explain to me what Ichabod's true desire was? I was so lost on that. His true desire is...doubting his wife???

No worries MDKNIGHT. I put those quotes in quotes for you, to make it easier to read, and took out the repetition. The quote tags will work also, as editorgrrl said.

I think I read that Facebook had more pro-Katrina people, but maybe it's just standard fans or whatever. But here and on other forums, that is not the case at all. It's like a 70/30 split Ichabbie/Ickatrina - and I'm being generous with the 30. But the episode Deliverance, it feels like a bomb went off. People were willing to wait and see, and hope and pray for something to make them look forward to the future of Team Witness, and the development of Irvings and Jenny's storylines. But like you said, Deliverance was the "straw the broke the camel back." People jumped ship, people said "I'm not watching this anymore" and "I'm done." In just one week. This is so facinating to me in a twisted way. I agree about the "chances". I was on the Jenny train the moment she said "Are you Abbie's new boyfriend?" and she arched that amazing brow of hers. I was on the Irving train with Orlando's first shady look, because you thought he was evil. Katrina. No thank you. I cringe when I see her on screen, TBH. Now if she were revealed as being evil, I would have been all over it. All over it. I'm very interested in seeing what happens with the ratings... phoenics, you and I need to go hit a bar and drown our Sleepy Hollow sorrows in some brandy or wine. Truly.

Beharie is apparently going to live-tweet tonight, but some people are like, doesn't it make more sense for her to live-tweet the "Mama" episode? I know Facebook was more pro-Katrina area - which is probably why the writers decided to insert her more into the narrative (though I believe it's other reasons....) But yeah, the shift is insane. There were grumblings in season 1, which increased after season 2 episode 2 (The Kindred), and the week before that with the ending of the "Abyss" episode, but the shift is insane. And all in one week. Most people here, and elsewhere are thoroughly disgusted and complaining like I've never seen before. Ever. Again, all in a week. It's mind-boggling. On top of that, I've never seen so many people jump "ship" - Ichabbie - in such a short time. Again, it took a week for people to say "uh oh, Abbie doesn't deserve Ichabod." Wow. The Metzner thing is mind-boggling too. I mean, he has written some movies (apparently Elektra), so criticism is bound to come into play no matter what one does as a writer, actor, director, etc. There are some nasty tweets to him, but these are people in a public arena - take the high ground and don't say a word. Instead, he's arguing with people in a public arena. He honestly should know better at this point.

Well...Abraham's desire could be that Katrina willingly becomes his bride. Crane's is obviously honesty. And if I am 100% correct, I demand a job as a writer, so I can correct their mistakes. Which is why my desire tonight will be lots and lots of wine. *grin* because phoenics, you are so are dead on. I'm sad about that, but you are totally correct. *sigh* Oh, and that tweeting writer: still tweeting and slamming the fans as of 20 minutes ago. I guess FOX's PR department didn't get to him this morning after all. What a mess.

They show is trying to play it like the woman is going to appear to Crane as Abbie. Doubt it. The Succubus isn't going to be a shapeshifter - she mimics things. So Abbie for Hawley, and my guess is that Crane desires HONESTY from a woman. Not hiding the truth, which is all Katrina does. Nothing else would makes sense. Oh, and probably a lot of babies *sigh*. Of course the stupid show is going to push the Ichabbie portion, but....I think we've learned our lesson now. Hmmm...now it's possible that the Succubus could mimic some traits of Katrina towards Abraham.....Hmm.... Admonishes self = stop getting hopes up!

And so do most of the men...along with waxing their chest! At least that's what it appears to be. Burt Reynolds they are not!

That's what confuses the hell out of me. It's got to be intentional, right? I mean, I know there is a reserved nature with Crane, but he wasn't even that reserved with Mary Wells!! And we've seen the multiple Abbie hugging scenes and there was love/care/feeling in them for sure. Especially the ones in season 2 episode 1. So this is deliberate, right? I mean, Mison is an excellent actor - he really is - so it's not him. Or it is him, but this is an acting choice or a directorial choice? Way to sell the fairytale romance, show. Damn, I mean, last season, whenever he popped up in Purgatory, their scenes felt flat too. They were passionless and the love was perfunctory. Crane brightens up whenever he's in Abbie's presence. But that scene...cringe...Same with last week bedroom scene. His arms were pulled tight to his side. This week same thing, and note his hands. They are clasped together but twitchy. Twitchy Ichy = nervous uncomfortable Ichy. The twitchy hands are a deliberate thing that Mison does.