Carrie Ann

I mean, the most vocal group of shippers from The Vampire Diaries were for a girl and her boyfriend's brother, and there were levels of toxicity in that ship that L/O can't even approach. Chemistry is definitely an important factor that can make a lot of people forgive other defects in a ship. I think maybe we could all think of a ship or two that we were fans of despite dysfunction or what we would support IRL. (Logan & Veronica, for one example for me. Hell, even the previously mentioned Delena, for me, until they actually went through with it in the ickiest way possible, without allowing the toxic elements to...detoxify.) But another thing about L/O that was hard to swallow is that it wasn't presented that way. It was presented as tragic, star-crossed, but not toxic until as @ostentatious points out, they started to maybe try to tank it. I mean, "Radioactive" for their sex scene. C'mon.

Right--I think we're all cool when we're addressing individuals' opinions on this board. So if you see someone here saying "I saw Ray do X but when Oliver did very similar X it didn't bother me," and you want to call that out, then okay, but that person still has the right to say that they don't agree they were exactly the same and that that nuance makes a difference to them. The fandom clearly contains multitudes as far as opinions are concerned, on every character, action, episode, whatever, and it's frustrating for anyone to have their opinion disregarded particularly when it is being misrepresented. Anyway, personally, after what we've seen of Raylicity, I'm tempted to break my no-contact rule with MG again and beg them not to make O/F like this when they're together. I agree with all of you saying you can't picture it ever being this way, but prior to this season, I couldn't picture a lot of things being the way they are now. I don't think SA would ever act in a way that he would find OOC for Oliver, but I'm not sure EBR has that level of confidence...or maybe she just likes playing this level of broad comedy with Felicity. I'm not sure. At any rate, this is not what I want them to look like together.

Also, in The Flash episode, Oliver at least seems to be helping Barry and doesn't seem like a robot when he says "Barry, move!" or something like that, so I think he's still Oliver. Just forced to be a part of the League for like an episode and a half.

I'd have to rewatch to pinpoint it, and I deleted it. But I don't think it was OOC in a character-damaging way; just that she didn't feel like Felicity to me. Too goofy and bubbly, and the dress she wore to Trivia Night at a coffee shop...

Yeah, this Flash episode is co-written by Kai Wu who also co-wrote the first Felicity crossover, which was also really OOC, IMO.

Ah damn.

Yeah, I love how Oliver's spent three years so far working up to being the Green Arrow, and when it comes to Laurel being the Black Canary the show's just like, "Whaddya mean? That's what everyone has always called her." Anyway, looking again at that table read photo, that woman with the black bob is not Rila Fukushima; I don't think it's Katrina Law unless she's wearing a wig. So, it's either a staff person, which might be a little odd because they're seated down with the cast. Or it's someone in a wig, which is strategically hanging in front of her face. Occam's Razor says staff person, but my heart says Caity Lotz.

My favorite whole look of hers was from Blast Radius. I love this dress, her hair, her lips, her necklace. Plus, she was wearing a sweet purple coat over it earlier in the episode. A++++++ This isn't the best shot, but it's important to see the full-body shot because: boots + butt.

I think the rest of the comment is derailing and has nothing to do with my point or KenyaJ's original points, which I think were pretty clearly stated, so I'm not going to continue that conversation, but: Who are the fans with legit criticism? How does one qualify as one of those fans? Are you allowed to have a particular favorite character? Or a particular favorite aspect of the show at all, like the stunts or the fight scenes or the comic book elements? Or are you simply not allowed to like a romantic pairing? I think there are many types of fandom that are deemed acceptable, and lenses through which fans are allowed to critique and evaluate a show. But once that lens even INCLUDES shipping, it is immediately dismissed, and all further opinions invalidated. Which...was the original point here. That MG dismisses negative opinions about Ray by saying it's all angry Olicity shippers, and therefore those opinions are not "legit." And neither is true.

Right??? I've never read anything over like 45k, I don't think. I know I should dive in sometime, but... I think 20k is like the sweet spot for me, in terms of investment and payoff.

Most reviews that I follow of the show have been critical of Elena (not of Nina, to be clear) for the past few seasons--that's a pretty wide-spread feeling I think.

I'd have to go back through this thread or MG's Tumblr, but he has answered several questions about CL/the spinoff in ways that indicated she was playing Sara. I don't even think he was trying to be coy about it, or viewing it as an admission. Like someone asked if we'd find out how Sara was coming back on Arrow (versus not finding out until the spinoff), and he said we'd find out this spring. Especially now that we know there is a floater among the shows, they are happening in the same timeline, same universe. This is Sara, I think.

Yep, it's Matt Nable. I wasn't sure who the woman with the black bob is--Rila?

Based on the list of episodes he's written/co-written, he's very hit-or-miss. Many of my least favorite episodes are on this list: I, um, got kind of emotional when I saw the title, so yes it works for me too.

There is no way to reverse this season (I mean, there is a way, but it's not like that will actually erase it from my life), but it would sure help a lot if the last 4-5 episodes were really strong. And Berlanti is absolutely the best and smartest person on the entire prod/writing team, so I am optimistic that I will at least enjoy 323. But no, we should not get too excited. So, uh, just try to remember that they're still talking up this "Barry in Oliver's body" line from F118, and that might balance out the positive feelings.

Oh Berlanti, thank God. Fingers crossed so hard for this episode.

Even if they DID intend some sort of TVD: NextGen scenario with Sarah, my bet is they canned it once the actress didn't pan out. She just has no life in her at all.

Yep, that's how I think it's gonna go. *cackling for eternity*

I found the Haylijah stuff pretty jarring in this episode. I mean, I know the wedding was only a few eps back, but all the show has done in that time is to attempt to show a deep bond growing between Hayley and Jackson, and in this ep it's like none of that ever happened. It's funny, because when you're rooting for a couple, I guess this is the kind of thing you want to see--the interloper made to feel uncomfortable and to acknowledge the Deep Important Feelings between the OTP or whatever. But I did root for H/E for a time, and damn if this episode didn't do the opposite for me. It just hammered the final nail in that coffin. I was so irritated with Hayley the entire episode and her uncalled-for rudeness to Gia and moony faces at Elijah who deserves better. So Gia spouting some nonsense about how she sees Elijah's feelings for Hayley didn't make me annoyed at Gia herself; it made me annoyed that the writers are forcing her into this weak-ass position of having to prop up the H/E eternal bond or whatever. Listen up, writers of romance: it will never be appealing for the person who chooses to leave a relationship (or not enter one in the first place) to interfere with the other party's attempts to move on. Now I dislike Hayley, and I was one of the few people who still held out some measure of regard for her. BLECH. Otherwise, I was delighted with Vincent and Eva/Rebekah. They are such strong performers, and I feel lucky to have them on this show. Not impressed at all with Freya--what even is this accent she's attempting?

I agree that there was plenty of Sara hate last season. I didn't see much Barry hate at all, and I think that the 2-episode situation was a huge reason for that. (Also, the natural charm of GG and BA as a character.) But I don't think either of those facts negates what @KenyaJ is saying. If I'm reading her right, the argument is that Ray is more widely disliked than other ship-block characters were, both within the shipper fandom and outside of it. And MG reducing it to the point that the only people who dislike Ray are shippers who are mad is inaccurate and kinda willfully ignorant. There were a lot of vocal fans who were unhappy with the O/S development and aimed that anger at Sara rather than (or in addition to) Oliver, but I'm not sure that number ever even reached majority status, let alone near-universality. And of course there will be shippers who dislike ANYTHING that blocks their favorite thing about the show, but that could be true of any fan who focuses on one aspect of a show, I just don't believe it's the case most of the time.

Even though Felicity feels like the most logical option, I think it's incredibly unlikely to be her OR Diggle because though the show may have dropped the ball this season, they are aware that O/D/F is the most popular aspect of Arrow. And as far as this role being a character's "job," well, who is paying them to do that job? To me, this sounds like it could be related to my ideal end of season scenario, which was that Team Arrow would be legitimized by the government. In that scenario, Lyla was in charge of things on the ARGUS side (after Waller was forced out of her job and ARGUS cleaned up), with Diggle as the liaison/tactical leader of TA. So all my dreams could still come true, if Lyla basically takes over the Waller role since we are likely losing that character because of the movie. If we lose ARGUS altogether, then a new organization could be formed with the ethical backbone that ARGUS obviously lacks. And then Lyla could basically be traveling between the shows giving out missions (I mean, she just quit her job--what is the narrative purpose of that?) To me, that's the more crucial role that at least the spinoff needs: someone to give the Justice League some purpose. They can get their own Tech person--or like The Flash, just make do with references to Felicity setting them up with what they need--but if we have a dozen people/metahumans, we need some uniting goals other than a city to save. Especially when some of them may be participating reluctantly.

Or maybe we're seeing it from Sara's POV? I'm still hoping that Sara was LP'd back in the fall, soon after her death, and has been in captivity/hiding since then. (Because six-month-old corpse....ewwwwwwwwwwwww.) So if we're going to see Sara before the finale (which I imagine we have to), then maybe we'll see her remembering her own murder.

My DVR screwed up 409, so I've been waiting to get a chance to watch it via alternate methods to catch up to watch the finale. And it was really sweet. You've all covered so many things I liked, but another one I'd like to mention is that they didn't force a reconciliation between Lemon/Magnolia and their mother. I really was concerned they were going to wrap that all up, but instead it was just left ambiguous, and I appreciated that. Random final note on this darling show: Jamie King and Lemon are really the Most Improved Actor and Character on maybe any show I've ever watched. JK does an amazing job wringing emotion out of small moments. I teared up when Lavon revealed the accidental proposal situation, just watching her face fall. What a change from Season 1 when Lemon was just unbearable and not in a fun way.

I think if they were filming a Thea death scene, in which she hung on long enough to basically have goodbye scenes with Roy and Oliver, that could be pretty emotionally draining for all of them. (BTW, I hate that I'm rooting for Thea to die now, but because I know it won't be permanent, I'm just happy to finally feel some optimism that Roy is going to live.)

I thought it seemed like QL did NOT identify Laurel as an accomplice (or at least, was not intending to do so), which seems hypocritical at best.