Carrie Ann

Well, I'm just giving my impression of things, not stating facts, so I'm not trying to do a disservice to your impressions of their relationship. But I would say also that I do personally think Sara and Oliver could have been a good couple, someday. I just don't think that the two times in their lives they got together were the right times. Obviously not while he was dating her sister, and again, not so soon after the island/LoA. They just weren't ready for each other, and they weren't in the right headspace for it. I think they could have made it work sometime, or in a parallel universe, but just not the times they tried. (I was already shipping O/F by the time they got together, but I remember thinking that if Sara were the one named Dinah, I would have felt way differently about the Green Arrow/Black Canary coupling on this show.)

Oliver does bring it up first, off-handedly, and then Sara clarifies a little awkwardly, "You want to move in together?" And that's when he backs off. He doesn't really realize that's what he was asking. He just meant that neither of them had a place to live at the moment, and her pushing about what he meant makes him (and her) realize that he's not in that mind-set at all. As to your next question, I guess that's what I was getting at in my original post. I don't think the fact that he was "with" Sara while not really being committed to being with her negates or contradicts his reasons for not being with Felicity. I think they're related. He doesn't feel he can be in a relationship, period. He didn't think he was really in one with Sara and part of that is that he really didn't think about it. But he can't let himself be in that type of non-relationship with Felicity, especially when he does know that he's in love with her. I know a lot of people read that "Felicity can't take care of herself like Sara can" into his reasons, but Oliver has never indicated that that plays a part. It's always just about him and his lifestyle, and what he's able to give in a relationship, and that is: not 100%, basically.

I think you ARE supposed to believe Oliver loved Sara and Felicity at the same time, maybe in different ways, at different stages. There are a lot of people, here and elsewhere, who don't believe he was ever IN love with Sara. I think it really depends on your personal definition, but to me, your second question gets to the point. "what are his reasons for believing he could be with Sara but not Felicity?" The answer, I think, is that he wasn't looking ahead with Sara. I think they loved each other, I think they had a really strong bond, I think they understood each other in a completely unspoken way. (I side-shipped them, actually, though I'm an Olicity person at heart.) But anyway, I don't think Oliver ever really gave much thought to his "relationship" with Sara, and did not allow it to become a distraction for him or to take any priority in his life. So that's the difference. He was able to be with her until it threatened to actually become something defined. He balked when Sara talked about moving in together in more than a matter-of-convenience way, because he wasn't/isn't able to commit to a relationship. I don't see Sara herself, or her death specifically, being responsible for Oliver not being with Felicity. The only way it's relevant is that he did/does basically think that he's going to die doing this, as Sara did, so that may be another reason he doesn't see himself as a great option for Felicity.

He has been on a real roll in the past 24 hours. Someone remove his wifi privileges, please.

If we're really talking about time travel (and I'm not saying that really IS going to happen) could we be seeing a wedding that would happen in the future of a particular timeline? Like maybe Wells can show them or something? Because otherwise, there is no one on this show ready to be married or engaged. Aside, maybe, from Tatsu and Maseo if they ever got officially divorced.

Oh, I definitely had that thought about Enzo too. I would HATE it. That character is not worthy of being a Salvatore.

Yeah...I thought about his 301 hair too, but why cut his hair before filming the timey-wimey stuff? Also, I was totally against anything that would just erase this season, but not anymore! I mean, I think it's a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad idea, but so is basically everything that's happened this year, so if we're gonna jump the shark, let's just do that. At least we could start over at Date Night. But the BC thing is the real sticking point. I just don't think they'd be willing to let go of all of the "hard" "work" LL has put in to become the BC this season.

Oh my God. It is so far off from where the sword went in, I completely wrote that scar off as being an option for the deathblow. Terrible. Here's a post on it if anyone else is curious.

Here's a random nitpick that's actually really bothering me: this was only our second shirtless Oliver scene of the season, right? The other being his fight with Ra's. Where he was run-through with a sword on the right side of his chest. So...where's the scar? I guess I noticed it missing because in the hiatus, I was sort of looking forward to the team seeing his big death-wound. But, there is just nothing there. Kind of a big thing for the makeup team to miss, but I'm guessing they never updated their scar-map after 309. Feels sloppy though.

I will personally never watch this one again, but my recommendation would be that you watch and the second your FF-finger feels itchy, just go with that instinct until a new scene starts. And repeat. There are some okay moments buried under piles of dreck, and for me even the wedding was ruined by RP.

And it seems like vengeance instead of being legitimately disillusioned or hurt. It seems like he would know the Arrow wouldn't actually just start mass-killing criminals again, so going after him like this just feels like wanting to hurt him. I guess it was Quentin's turn on the S3 plot-induced character WTFery thrill ride. It's obviously happening this way so that Oliver is publicly unmasked or whatever their end goal is, and they need Quentin to be irrational in order for that to happen.

I just could not handle how spiteful she was being about it. And it just makes the flirtiness with Oliver less appealing, because it's like, either you really DO want to be with Ray and only Ray or you don't, but at this point, that's no longer Oliver's problem or his fault. So, no putting that shit on him, and no cheek kisses, sorry. Remember last week when we were talking about whether the O/F flirtiness felt off because of Ray? I took the NO position, because the Ray thing felt so casual. But not anymore. If you're going to make Oliver the bad guy both in your non-relationship with him AND in your rilly rilly serious important relationship with Ray? Especially when the reason you think he's the problem is that you know he's in love with you? Then no more flirting with him. That's just blaming him because it's easier than taking responsibility for your own feelings and actions. No more. It is not a good look.

I haven't hated an episode this hard since 313. I can't even begin, because there was almost nothing I enjoyed. I liked seeing Diggle and Lyla being sweet together. I liked the bookends of cute Oliver/Diggle scenes. I liked Cupid and Deadshot. Laurel was pretty good. I basically hated everything else. Every moment Felicity was on-screen, for example. I'm honestly flummoxed by what they are doing with her, in every capacity. She did the opposite of what I expected/wanted at every moment. Primarily: Yep! And the dialogue could not have been worse. It was all tell, no show. I mean, Felicity said to Oliver, "You never wanted me to be with him!" all snide and bitter. Wow. WOWWWWWW. And then she ends the episode kissing his goddamn cheek. I mean. What is happening here.

I still cannot with EBR's take on Raylicity, but it's her job to sell it, so I will let it go. However, viewers love Olicity but also love watching R/F? Em, this is a safe space--tell us who lied to you. Not even talking about Olicity people; just people in general. I mean, I have seen a bunch of people jump off the O/F ship this season, but none of them are hopping onto R/F. Most of them just aren't interested in him, and therefore aren't interested in that relationship. But I will say that her comments do make me think that this thing could last through the hiatus. Just makes it seem so much more serious than they have time to make it in the remaining episodes.

No worries! Just didn't want to come off like it's objectively the worst, just that it irked me personally. And I don't watch Mindy or OITNB, so I can't compare, but I've definitely heard complaints about those. I was trying to think of themes from current shows that bug me, and I can't really think of any, because it's kinda rare these days for series to do anything other than ambient sounds or a bubbly or suspenseful instrumental. So JW/Firefly should get some credit for trying something different.

Yeah, not trying to state an objective fact here. Just saying that I personally hate it.

Yeah, I don't know if Massive Attack counts in that category, but I said "House!" like a hundred times before it was actually House.

Bringing this conversation over from Mind Your Surrounding, re: the video of JLM, CV, and RC singing the Firefly theme. Because it's the wooooooooooooooooooooooorst? I mean, as this video proves, the song itself is fine when performed well. But as a theme song, just terrible*. And I hate the vocals/arrangement of the original. Speaking of that, this series of remixes of the theme is one of my favorite things ever to appear on this site. (*To me, the whole thing is just very try-hard and overwrought--just like Firefly itself!) (Sorry, I'm a jerk, but it's easily my least-favorite Whedon property. It seems like the kind of thing where if it hits you right, or you're on the right wavelength, it's awesome. I just wasn't on that wavelength, and it doesn't work for me.)

Replying in Small Talk.

I think it's because these three are the ones doing the Kickstarter that this was made to promote. And yeah, I've watched this like five times since yesterday morning and it just does not get old. And that's coming from someone who thinks that it's in contention for the worst TV theme song of the decade.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to be hopeful at this point, but it's a pretty boring origin story for Ray if he doesn't face adversity or experience defeat at this stage. In setting up the new show, you'd think they'd want Ray to have some sort of conflict or problem to overcome. But, because they apparently only write toward whatever will cause Oliver the most pain at any given moment, I won't be surprised at all if Ray never experiences more than minor consequences for just flying off into the night in his brand-new suit, without ever practicing or testing or anything. Because, yeah, no vigilante in this universe other than Oliver really has to do the work or feel the pain of their choices. On another note, since I'm basically writing off the next batch of episodes, I'm focused on my only remaining hope, which is a decent finale. But with where we appear to be in 321, and the fact that only two episodes remain to wrap things up, plus all the "this show will never be the same," "what will Season 4 even look like" stuff, I'm not super optimistic. I'm back to thinking Oliver is in the LOA or on the run at the end of the season. On the run would be okay with me, as long as at least Felicity is with him (whole Diggle family and Thea too would be truly excellent), because I just need something positive to hold onto over the summer. But I keep wondering about how the premiere is supposed to set up the whole season, and how can the finale bring things full circle? How does it respond to the questions raised there? How does Oliver experience any character growth if he's just stuck in the LoA? How does that respond to the obviously critical "We are not our masks and we need people in our lives who don't wear one" line, for example?

I agree--it's sort of like the hosts/judges/EPs of reality shows claiming that every new season has the Most Talented Cast Ever. That's...really not up for you to say? And it needlessly denigrates your own work, as well as the opinions of people who were really affected by those previous seasons. Anyway, I've cried twice during the run of this show--once when Moira died, and once when Oliver said, "I don't wanna die down here." Sara's actual death made me angry instead of sad, and I didn't feel like that episode or any subsequent episodes were really about mourning her. It was all about the survivors, so that's why I only really cried about Oliver's reaction. So...I mean, I guess if they play it right with whatever happens, then maybe that will be affecting. But the goal of this show should not be to use a death to emotionally manipulate the audience every 15 episodes, because we're really getting to the diminishing returns stage here.

Ah, sorry, I might have gotten my episode numbers mixed up in my post. I think the death is in 319. But I suspect it's very close to the end, so the actual reaction to it is in 320? (That's when Stephen was in the ICU set with the body-mounted camera, I believe.) This is one of the MG posts I was referring to, from Tumblr:

And how MG keeps saying things about how he hopes 320 will be more devastating than both of those (Tommy/Moira). I basically don't think it's possible we're getting out of this without a major character death, and I hate to do this but yeah, CH is still not in Vancouver right now. Prove me wrong, Show!

Glad Ra's remembered to bring his weirdo tiki torches with him to this high school gym or whatever. Also, it looks like Dig might have a tear in his eye in the holding room or wherever they are. Could just be a trick of the light. And I'm guessing Roy and Thea are watching Oliver being arrested/outed on the TV screen at Verdant, maybe?