Carrie Ann

I thought it was pretty decent too, but I DGAF about Jo or Liv or their family, so all of that was eyeroll-worthy to me. Also, Liv's voice was super trembly the whole episode, like someone with a fear of public speaking, thrust on the stage. Weird. I didn't love the Defan suburban dream vision quest, but I can see the necessity. I'm also relieved Stefan and Caroline are pausing, because yeah, they need some distance from the toxicity of this season. I hope they can recapture the spark next season. Bonnie, noooo! I don't know what's happening to her, but it scares me. Could she turn witchpire? Can't remember why Lily's "family" is able to stay witches after they turn b/c anything witchy on these shows (aside from Bennett witches) makes me zone out. UGH I hope Matt kills Lily dead, really hard, and then the Salvatores can cry and cry about it. He deserves to get one back on them, and Lily is the effing worst. And um, I'm almost scared to say anything about Elena, because honestly I will be really, really sad if she dies. A season ago, I wouldn't have said that. But she really did improve this year, and her becoming human again was all I ever wanted for her. It would be really tragic for her to die now. I have to believe the show won't go there.

This is also cracking me up: "Oh! Didn't see you there. Just catching up on Instagram after Nanda Parbat."

Barry's pose is hilarious.

I don't think Klaus is the hero. I think he's supposed to be kind of an antihero, but tbh I never root for him and he's not the most interesting character to me. My interests sometimes align with his, but I mostly still view him as the villain of the piece, and the only time I find the show tough to swallow is when it expects me to sympathize more with him than with his victims (uhhhh, that's basically everyone on the show). I like him as a character though--I mean, I find him an engaging figure, and JM is great in the role. I've found him and the show much more interesting this season, when they allowed him to grow and change a bit. And now at the end of the season, they've kinda gone back to the original formula (heh) and I'm finding my attention flagging.

We're not so used to seeing it on this show, where things have become very VERY silly and grandiose and black-and-white, but on better shows, when characters make difficult decisions, the people in their lives will have varied reactions. So while you (and apparently Dig) would have a very hard time ever trusting Oliver again or allowing him back into your life, that doesn't mean that every character or every person who watches this show or posts on this site would react the same way. Personally, I appreciate that (it seems) we will end the season with some people forgiving Oliver, and others not. If that variation in reaction is a dealbreaker for you, or if you feel that it is really OOC for Felicity or whomever, then I get feeling that way. But you're already not watching the show, so I'm not sure what else you can do to cut ties with it.

To the first point, I think it would have been better for Laurel to say: "I can't believe Nyssa has to marry him." Then pan over to show Felicity looking sickened or whatever. It accomplishes three things at once: showing Laurel's continuing concern for Nyssa (absent this ep after so much focus in the last), clearly defining that Nyssa is the real victim here (particularly as she is still in the dark about Oliver), and still showing Felicity having a reaction to this without making her be the one to say it. To the second point, yeah, what happened with Isabel last year wasn't exactly right either. But they spent the first couple episodes of S2 addressing the issue of shares--Walter came through with the last minute financing that allowed Oliver and Isabel to own equal majority shares and be co-CEOs. And then in the end of the season, there were a couple of scenes devoted to the fact that SEC regulations require the completion of this Board of Directors meeting, that Isabel had to do a fair bit of manipulating within the laws of this country in order to become sole CEO. She drove share prices into the toilet. That equals publicly-traded company. This season, Oliver is trying to buy back majority shares of QC (with investors' backing) AND run the company again. Instead, the Board of Directors rejects that move and sells the shares to RP instead, making him CEO. I think it would take a Board decision to sell the company to Felicity and allow her to run it, and that would be a very risky move from a shareholder/stock price perspective, so I don't think the board would approve it. And even if they did, I still don't think she'd own the company. She'd own the majority shares. (Someone who knows more, correct me if I'm wrong!) So anyway--my issue is that you can't repeatedly make something a plot point and then wave it off a few episodes later and not expect people to eyeroll about it. That is one reason that I'm hoping instead that what is happening is that RP has spun off a segment of the company, and that is what he's given to Felicity. It would sit better with me, and make more sense for everyone involved. And I want Felicity and Oliver to build their company together; I'd prefer it not just be gift-wrapped by Palmer in its entirety.

More than just this, I don't think Oliver expects them to forgive him now. I forced myself to rewatch the scene with him and Diggle (physically painful), and he has that moment of confusion when Dig first snaps at him, and then he just accepts the blows. He says, "Tatsu told me to beat Ra's, I would have to be willing to sacrifice everything that was precious to me. Your friendship was one of those things." After Dig lays into him, and after what Malcolm told him in the beginning about being a little too convincing as Al Sah-him, I think he feels like he may have already ruined everything in his life. So when the dust settles, and Felicity forgives him, it won't bother me. Because I think he's going to expect, and feel like he deserves, the opposite. It's not a black-and-white situation, and I'm not going to begrudge any of the characters for staying mad at him or choosing not to.

I think the transfer of ownership is...ridiculous. Felicity is 26 years old. She knows nothing about running a company, and as much as I love her and think she's brilliant and want her to have all of her heart's desires, this is stupid. But if she owns it (hopefully just a portion, just the Starling-based tech stuff or whatever's left of QC), then I hope she appoints someone else CEO (NOT Oliver) and stays on as VP of whatever she might wish. But...it's a publicly-traded company, right? Or it was, when it was QC? What is Ray really transferring to her? His shares of the stock? Or did he buy it all out and turn it into a private company?

I can totally see both sides of the Diggle's overreacting debate. But while I can picture him quickly understanding and being okay with Oliver again, I also think his anger is justified and I'm not really unhappy with this direction. Here's the thing: Lyla was in real danger. Yes, she can handle herself, but you know, the Boomerang guy got a pretty good hit in earlier this season, and in the fight with the LoA, Oliver was also occupied (uh, fighting Dig), so he couldn't have really been sure Lyla was safe the whole time. She was fighting off two dudes at once. She was in danger. And Sara was alone in her crib for some amount of time, which is super duper scary for a new parent. Like, on a molecular level. The deal is that Oliver decided, unilaterally, that those were risks worth taking. Acceptable. That his best friend's wife and child being vulnerable was okay, because he's playing a bigger game here. Add in the fact that he was lying to them all along, and this whole and yeah, I don't have a problem with Dig staying mad going into S4. But I do think that at this point, the team has to understand the stakes, and the lengths Oliver has had to go to try to stop Ra's, so if I guess I won't mind.

Go with that instinct. It made me mad.

Yessss, I want the laughing in his face to happen. That would be the absolute best. Felicity deserves a good, long, rueful laugh after her Year of Living Tearfully. Everything else about this episode basically sounds terrible! GOD I am sick of this stupid season.

I think it could be Oliver to Maseo, or even Malcolm, but I'd like it to be Nyssa. I do take this lady's feelings about the show with a grain of salt because her impressions of 320 didn't exactly match up with mine, so as far as tragedy: obviously Akio is dying in this episode, and maybe Tatsu and Maseo talk about it again. Why would the wedding make her cry? Uhhhh...I dunno, maybe she's as overinvested in Olicity as some people here are. *cough* Or maybe KL and SA really sell the angst of not wanting to be in this situation and feeling scared and shitty about their lives. Oliver makes me cry regularly, so it wouldn't take much.

I already said this in my previous post, but the show created a false equivalency here. These two issues do not carry the same weight, by any stretch of logic. Barry keeping Iris in the dark about being The Flash actually put her in more danger, arguably got at least one person killed, and it meant that he was hiding the biggest part of his life from her--and twisting everyone else in knots to do it. Iris didn't tell Barry that she has thought about him romantically. That's it. But if we were to pretend that these things were equal, then if I were to be mad at Iris for "hiding" her feelings for Barry for the last few months, man, I guess I'd have to be 50 times as mad at Barry for hiding his feelings for 15 years. Right? I genuinely believe that Iris was in the dark about her own feelings for Barry (willfully or no) until he confessed his to her, and then I think she started to figure out where she stood. So I certainly don't blame her for not just jumping at the first sign that she might feel something for him, when she was already in a committed, loving relationship. That's Iris being confused, not willfully LYING to Barry.

This is exactly how I feel. I guess I tricked myself into believing that the way the show went SO over the top in letting everyone in the world except Iris know the secret (including, you know, everyone in Starling City) was intentional. That once she found out, she was going to go nuclear--or at least nuclear winter--that she would lay into everyone and then freeze them out. Because that is what she deserves to do; that is what she would do, if the writers were interested in her character at all. But they're not. Evidenced by the fact that there was no further purpose to keeping her in the dark, no character journey, no repercussions or consequences. No long-lasting drama at all. That drama is all done--they spent a season on it for Barry's character. Iris's character? Gets to be mad for half an episode and then basically let her dad and Barry off the hook. And Barry's secret is equated to Iris's not being willing to face her feelings for him. THOSE THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL. We're exactly where we were relationship-wise, except now it's all out in the open, and Iris "gets" to be in on the secret now. Yay? Ugh, what a disappointment.

Yay, someone else who doesn't like Coach. I had brief moments where I found him tolerable, but in general, he's just this loud, braying off-note, like he's leftover from the movie version and doesn't fit with the tone of the show at all. And I think Motel California is still my favorite ever episode of the show. Just effective on all fronts, for me.

It's funny that Rila's Instagram of Katana looks cooler than The CW's overworked character posters do.

Slight casting spoilers: Yeah, I'll finish out this season, but at this point with all the deaths, all that's left for me is Daniel Gillies (and Yusuf Gatewood, but I'm not too enthralled by Vincent as a character yet), and that's probably not enough anymore. They lost the magic somewhere midseason, and now the ratio of bad actors/characters to good is tipping the wrong way. It's a shame.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Man, after a really solid 2/3 of a season, this last third has been a real bummer, and Gia might be the last straw for me.

I saw that interview too--he said it was almost 3.5 hours long. I haven't even seen this yet but I already wish I could watch the director's cut instead, because I guarantee the stuff that got cut is the character stuff I would have cared about the most. But I doubt they would release a director's cut, because if they don't release that material, they can use it (the content, not actual footage) for future movies.

The "unsurprisable" thing doesn't mean much to me because given the 20 new pages in this thread this week alone (hi MostlyC and other mods, you are nice and patient!), there are surely people who have suggested or at least considered basically everything, even if they didn't have enough evidence to suggest it out loud somewhere. If I had to guess, I would say one of the two things involves Malcolm in double-cross mode, but I don't know if he's working with anyone else or just for his own ends. So if that does happen, there will be some surprise as to who and how long and to what purpose. But it's not going to be shock. (Like with the Roy fake-out. When he "died," I felt sort of numb about it, and it was because I saw how much time was left and thought there was an even chance that something was up. I wouldn't have guessed how it all went down beforehand, but we did guess that he was just leaving the show, not dying, so it's not like the end result was a huge surprise.)

I don't think anyone is denying that BC and GA have had a significant history in the comics, or that BC is the most significant of GA's love interests in the comics. But that doesn't mean that that pairing--even inside the comic world--has a level of untouchability or inevitability that means Arrow must pair them up again. Even if it were beholden to comic canon, which it's not. The show is beholden to its network, which cares only about its viewership. And there is no energy in the viewership around Laurel and Oliver together and plenty of energy against it. And comic purists, who would be the only people (aside from KC/LL fans) likely to be upset that BC/GA aren't together, also seem to dislike romance on the show in general, so they're not likely to fuss about it too much if it doesn't happen.

I thought it was silly for Laurel to try to force the team to put Lyla and Nyssa on the same level, but I didn't feel it was silly for her to do it herself, if that makes sense. Like, I actually do find myself sort of believing this Laurel/Nyssa bond--not above what Nyssa had with Sara or anything--but they really are sort of in the same place right now. Laurel is the odd-man-out on Team Arrow for sure, and she's estranged from her father. She's clearly desperate for connection, and so is Nyssa. So I actually have no problem accepting that they have become very tight in the last couple of months, and that Laurel now feels more loyalty and trust for Nyssa than for Oliver or any member of Team Arrow. That is actually logical to me, based on her non-existent-to-hostile relationship with Oliver and her still tentative relationship with D&F. But it was ridiculous for her to expect Diggle (or Felicity) to value or trust Nyssa in the same way, particularly when it would require them to first distrust Oliver (which they didn't have reason to yet) or to do so at great risk to Lyla. Stop making Laurel do things like this, show!

This show doesn't have the money to throw away on a "tease" that they aren't even publicizing. SA tweeted the thing about driving stick, but otherwise, it was all this dude who saw them shooting on that street. Would they rent a Porsche, pay for insurance, get permits and pay to have that road closed, get that crane camera rig out there, and all the cast/crew they needed to shoot something that they weren't going to use on the show? No, they talk about how they use every single dollar efficiently, and I believe them. Could it be a dream? Yes. But that shot will be on the show.

Both Lily and Damon have been shown to feel conflicted about their killing in general, and I think infant/child murder is substantively different from killing an adult or even a teen. Lily is very maternal except when it comes to her own sons (which...still doesn't really make sense to me, but okay, let's say that she shut that specific part of her humanity off in order to survive and to try never to hurt her kids), and Damon is a huge asshole who feels WAY less remorse about killing than he should (and pretends to feel none at all) but has been shown to have trouble fully turning off his humanity. It seems in-character to me that Lily or Damon would balk at killing a baby (or a pregnant woman for the same reason). But back to the pregnancy story: it was so obvious that Jo was going to have twins that I forgot it hadn't already been revealed. That said, come on. Jo is a doctor. Her hormone testing would have shown that she was having multiples, and if that didn't happen because she wasn't sure of when she got pregnant, then at any rate if she's far enough along to show what we saw in the ultrasound, then she also would have already had a heartbeat test, which would have revealed the same thing Lily heard.

I think he has tried to say this in every way he can, and it's probably just an accident that he hasn't yet used the words "they are married." I think the only reason he's leaving any part of this in question is because it's "only" a League marriage, not recognized by any law. Hoping against hope to be wrong, and that there's some other twist, but am fully expecting the O/N wedding to complete without an O/F wedding first to invalidate it further.