Carrie Ann

Fully agree. He wanted this and I'm sure he's not happy about the response. Sorry pal, this isn't Parenthood. No one is watching Arrow to see Oliver's budding relationship with a grade-schooler we have no investment in.

Oh man, it's going to be a long few months for him if he can't let this go.

Sure, but Oliver didn't ask for William to meet Felicity. He just wants to tell Felicity that William exists and is his son. Those are two very different things. ETA: Or what apinknightmare said.

Ah, okay, I get this, but my question is still the same, I guess. If you won't write it off for external reasons, then you are left to draw conclusions from it. What is your conclusion as to why Oliver didn't explain himself while Felicity was saying her "you don't love or trust me and you never will" piece? To me, the only in-text answer that works with my understanding of Oliver is that he was shaken and overwhelmed and couldn't pull it together to speak up for himself (aside from the "this just happened, I think I'm entitled to some time to process") when he knew he had kept a secret from her, of his own volition, at every step except the last one, when you can blame Samantha, I suppose. I think the time he needed to process was really the time he needed to decide whether he was going to be able to abide by Samantha's wishes or not. Otherwise he's just a weasel, for telling Felicity that. And again, I believe he assumed they would talk again later, when things were over and she'd had time to cool off. Their fight patterns indicate that when she says she needs time/air, she means it. And as others have complained, this is also pattern of behavior for Oliver. People yell a bunch of things at him and he stands there and takes it, saying nothing of use to defend himself. Why? Again, my answer lies outside the text (where's the conflict if we just let adults talk to each other like real people do?), but in-show, I think there are also some pretty ready conclusions to draw based on his psychological profile.

Who's arguing that he loves her so much he had to lie? If you're referring to a post of mine and dtissagirl's that was quoted here, that's an oversimplification and not the focus of those posts. The focus wasn't on why he lied, exactly; it was about why he looked so content and relieved in the final scene, rather than guilty or whatever else we expected to see instead. Further, I'm confused as to what it means to you that Oliver let Felicity walk away without putting up a fight in the first "breakup" scene? That he doesn't actually love her or care about their relationship enough? Maybe I'm just not following the logic, or maybe we just have different views of the depth of his attachment to her. I agree that Oliver should have stopped Felicity to tell her that Samantha had told him he needed to keep it a secret, but I mean, had they not all died, and that Timeline continued, of course they would have actually talked about the situation and he would have explained that part. The only reason he didn't do it in that moment is external: the writers had no time in the episode to include an actual, full conversation, and more importantly, they didn't want one. They needed that scene to end with Felicity stalking off so Barry could believe that she had broken up with Oliver. I personally didn't see it as a breakup. I assume that Timeline 1 Oliver had grave concerns about what would ultimately result from that conversation, but not that he thought it was over yet. So, Oliver's not putting up a fight means nothing to me in terms of his feelings or motivations, because he clearly would have done so eventually. (That he didn't at that moment was part of what made the ep feel so reminiscent of S3, where all sorts of things would have been resolved if people just sat down and talked through their actions and motivations, instead of jumping to conclusions or making bad choices, and never getting or giving clarification.) Timeline 1 Oliver entered that conversation--and began his investigation into the DNA mess--without the "knowledge" that it would end in Felicity breaking up with him. Timeline 2 Oliver was given that faulty knowledge, and his decisions from that point were informed by it. To me, one telling thing is that he did the same thing both times anyway: he followed Samantha's wishes over his own desire to tell Felicity the truth. T1 Oliver was lying to Felicity again when she "broke up" with him, after begging Samantha not to make him do that. T2 Oliver did the same thing, but in that timeline we can understand that his reactions to things are informed by a deep, deep fear that Felicity would break up with him--including the last scenes, and the look of relief on his face to be in his safe space: Felicity's arms, in the middle of their apartment that had been destroyed by a fan-wielding immortal. :') I think we can all relate.

I think so too, but in a broader sense. Unfortunately, I think they've written themselves into a grim, angst-soaked corner for 409-415ish. Whatever happens to Felicity, her dad showing up, finding out about the kid, breakup, etc. There's just...no way those episodes aren't going to be full of depressing, stressful crap. And last season, 316 was when we had an abrupt change in tone, and change in the dynamic with O/F. Suddenly they were friends again! Suddenly they were both smiling, touching each other. It's pretty obvious the writers had received the message at that point that people were NOT happy with the direction things were going. This season, it's like the reverse situation. I don't think they're scrambling just because of 408, but because of how well-received 401-407 have been. There seems to be a pretty clear critical and fan consensus that this season is way better on almost all fronts. So I think maybe they underestimated how strong that reaction would be, or how successful all this more mature and happy Oliver/Team Arrow/Olicity would be. Also pursuant to the convo in the Media thread: I don't care what any of them say, love and hate is not the same to them. They may prefer them to apathy, but that doesn't mean they don't care about the balance. SA admitted that he has an ego, like all actors, and writers are sensitive babies, too. :) They certainly want people to love the things they make. And I'm sure the network wants people to love things. So if they're scrambling to fix things now, I'd say it's to rescue the show (and to a lesser extent, the ship) from reverting to the doom and gloom of S3, before they lose all good will. We'll see if they're successful. So as I said in the Ep thread (I think?), I imagine 415-7 is about where there will be a thaw between O/F. Not a rekindling, not a reconciliation. But something that says, "We can be friends again, we can smile at each other, we're all going to be okay here."

I don't know why Felicity should put up with it either. I don't think she will, right away, so if we assume that they do break up, then I just have a big ? in the place between then and O/F getting back together. I guess if she saw him make an actual change specifically related to this--another instance where he could keep a secret but chooses not to even though it will damage him, maybe? (honestly I'm bad at this kind of spec)--AND, related to his abnormal emotional processing and resulting behaviors and his dependence on her as the key to peace and hope and goodness in his life--if she saw him go on with his life while they were broken up, being a good person, a good mayor (theoretically) and Green Arrow, a good friend and brother and UGH father, then maybe that would be the progress she would need to give him another chance. I totally see what you're saying, and I wouldn't judge Felicity for thinking this is the last straw. But, the person she met in S1 had PTSD and he still does. He makes progress, though, even if he has setbacks and infuriating patterns of behavior, and so if she considers that progress (and the fact that he was starting out in a deficit when they met) in making her decision, I wouldn't find that doormat-ty either.

I've kind of envisioned a scenario where there are longer-term effects from the presumed injury, and that Donna would already be in town for nursing duties. So when the inevitable breakup occurs, I envisioned Felicity moving out (probably just into a PT corporate apartment, i.e., the lab hastily redressed a la RP's place) and Donna coming with her. But yes, any disappointed glances she can throw Oliver's way, I will accept with gratitude.

I fully agree. I edited my post to clarify a little, that when I say "really fucked up," I mean WAY above what is normal for people. And that is already a very high level, because I think anyone would feel real terror at the thought of breaking up with someone they want to spend their whole life with. So it is NOT normal. His emotional responses are NOT normal. And something needs to be done about that. If that's the progress we get from him by screwing this up so badly and getting dumped by Felicity, then okay. I'll still think it's about the most contrived, hack-y way to accomplish this, but you know. That's what I've come to expect from these people, so.

From the Bitterness thread: First, I saw someone on Tumblr say that the lighting on SA's face may actually be part of the problem, and I agree. That's such a weird thing to say, but I think the angle of his face and the light/shadows on it may make him look a little more serene/content than he was actually trying to convey. It kind of looks like a grimace or a "close your eyes to stop thinking" type of face depending on your brightness levels. But even if that's not the case, it doesn't change my interpretation of the scene, which is that Oliver looks completely relieved to be in Felicity's arms because he is. Because that is his dominant, overwhelming emotion at that moment. That doesn't mean he's not at all conflicted, and I would definitely have preferred to see something like that. But on the other hand, while I watched the scene, I was so thrown by that reaction that my immediate interpretation was, "Whoa, okay, he was REALLY fucked up by the thought of her breaking up with him." So fucked up that he would make such a stupid, desperate mistake. Fucked up on a level above the typical human response. That line, "It's over, and I'm back, in Star City, with you." The clinging hug, the closed-eyed, clear, deep, intense relief in his face. The way he looked panicked and sickened at every point earlier in the episode where losing her crossed his mind: the first scene with Samantha, the non-breakup, the scene where Barry told him, the "She is nice. She's the best," line, which was my favorite delivery of his in the whole episode. They all add up to tell me that the thought of losing her is horrifying and unbearable to him, on a deep, lizard-brain level. I think his PTSD is in play; I think his fear of what he becomes without her is in play. I think he has finally let himself be vulnerable to a thing having power over him--his love for her and their life and hopes for a future together--and he is bone-deep terrified at the thought of it slipping away. So when he's back in SC, and she's so firmly with him--and especially if you believe the interpretation that he doesn't think he's ever going to be allowed to really be William's father (Samantha saying he can "never" tell anyone else, just Mommy's friend, etc.)--he's just overwhelmingly relieved to have dodged the scariest bullet of his life, and probably willfully blind to the obvious risk that Felicity will find out some other day. SA is about the only performer on the show whose interpretations of the script almost always make sense to me, so when I watched that end scene, it immediately told me something I wasn't told by the script. To be clear: I still don't accept this as a valid reason for him not to tell Felicity, and I don't think it's the definitive interpretation. But it is mine, and it means I can continue to understand Oliver, even while I reject this choice and this path they've chosen for him.

I have a slightly different interpretation of that scene that makes it a little less awful for me, but I'm gonna post it in the OQ thread because I don't want to dilute the hate here. ;)

Well, I do think the writers kinda rewrote what was the implied timeline in the original 220 flashback sequence, which made the pregnancy seem like it was much closer to when Oliver went on the Queen's Gambit. So, all I can offer is my best guess on the rough timeline, based on the dates we do know: 2005 or maybe early 2006: Oliver cheats on LL (probably) with Samantha, resulting in a pregnancy. Oliver is 20. --6 weeks later (approx): Samantha moves to CC 2006 (mid- to late, most likely): William is born. Oliver is 21. 2007: The Gambit sinks (do we have any clue about even what time of year it was?) Oliver is (probably) 22. If I had to guess, I would say that Oliver's punching paparazzi days may have been in between the pregnancy and the Gambit going down, but who knows? No one ever makes it sound like he had one wild year; they make it sound like he was wild his whole young adult life. So, yeah, you know she probably knew what she was getting into. I don't blame her for her judgment of him later though. She was 20, having fun, sleeping with a fun, hot dude. Then she got pregnant and shit got real, and all that ridiculous behavior probably seemed a lot less cool after the fact. And so, basically, we've got her keeping the pregnancy from him, and then maybe up to another year where she could have told him about William, but in that time, he was making a public mess of himself. And then he was dead for five years. By that time, I imagine she'd have determined hiding it had really been for the best. And after he came back, he was putting on the Ollie show for the public. Getting arrested, opening a nightclub riddled with drugs and ODs, etc. Then Tommy dies, then his mother dies. I can totally see why she didn't contact Oliver. I'm not saying she made the right choices at any given point, but I do get it, on a character motivation level. This is the whole problem, as you all have been discussing for the last page or so: on paper, her concerns are very, very valid. William is her life, her "world," her only priority. But she contradicts herself by showing that she does think it's possible Oliver has changed, and at the same time asking him to do something that will prove he's still immature. I told apinknightmare that all they really needed to do to solve this issue for me was for Samantha to say, "I don't want you telling anyone right now, including her. You may trust her, but I don't even trust you yet, so I just need a little more time." I still would have thought it was an unnecessary request, and would have been unhappy with Oliver going along with it, but it would have meant that not everyone needed to be a bewildering shithead in this scenario. And it would have provided the show with the same amount of drama, because it's not like Felicity's not going to find out until next season or something. Like, they're going to move on this in a few episodes' time, is my guess, which would be well within the amount of time I'd expect Samantha to want for Oliver's trial run. ALAS.

Quick Q related to the talk about bad/awkward acting in this episode: I thought SA did a nice job with everything, as usual, and there were a few moments that he handled particularly well, with subtlety and nuance. But I'm confused about what scene(s) reporters were referring to before the ep aired, that were supposed to be his best ever, most heartbreaking, amazing, etc.? I don't think any scene or moment in this episode stood out to that degree, and certainly none came anywhere near my personal gold standard for SA, which is "I don't want to die down here" from 302.

You're a good person, blessings on your house.

AMAZING. I want someone to make a new version with LIES as the text.

They're doing this because they think they can come back from it. They fully believe they can and will, and we will all love it, but they don't understand that it is possible to poison and taint a ship, and that no matter what you write for them down the road, you could lose the enthusiasm of your fans if they don't buy into the story you're telling anymore. To be honest, this show lost my faith last season, so this episode was bad for me, very bad, but...basically exactly as bad as the bad episodes last season. And I made it through that shitfest, so I'm still in. Like, I will never trust the writers again, and as good as it ever seems at any given time, I will always assume we're just around the corner from a huge clusterfuck. But...somehow within those parameters, I can still engage with the characters, enjoy the high points, and not let the low points totally kill me. I don't know. It's confusing.

Yeah, the way I see it, Oliver's choice wasn't William vs Felicity; it was a choice between lying to Samantha or lying to Felicity, and he chose the latter. I certainly understand him choosing to do whatever to see his son right now. But he could have told Samantha what she wanted to hear, and then come home to SC and told Felicity, and both of them would have pretended he didn't. As @apinknightmare said, at best, we're talking about Oliver feeling a sense of honor, of keeping his promise to Samantha, but he is simultaneously sacrificing his implicit promise to Felicity, to have honesty in their relationship.

He didn't say he didn't feel guilty. He said that before, he would have thought this was his fault, now he knows it's his responsibility. To end this...whatever. But I agree with you that even the more mature Oliver we got to know prior to this evening would have still reverted back to believing it was his fault in that situation.

I didn't really mind the first fight, although it progressed WAY too quickly and I don't think the S4 Felicity would have jumped to that place so fast. But I didn't actually see it as a breakup? I saw it as a major problem and they'd have to come back to it after the battle to talk about it more and then...yeah, maybe they would have broken up. Hard to say. But four sentences and walking away? After all that time together? Nah. So add that to the pile of stupid, that the Breakup Which Was Foretold didn't actually occur.

I never followed him on Twitter, but I did follow other Arrow writer/producer accounts and I unfollowed them all. I encourage this. Not in some protest way; just in a "now is not the time I want to see y'all patting yourselves on the back" way.

I knew he would write off any criticism as shipper whining because he always does.

Right here!

OMG, the replies to that tweet. *praise hands emoji*

Right, I mean, I thought it was obvious that that's what Oliver thought. But that doesn't make any sense, and if he knew Felicity the way I believe he does, he would know that. He would know there would have to be more to it than just "You have a kid?! Dude, I'm out." And if he doesn't think that, then WHY would he still want to be with her? That Felicity sounds awful!

I have nothing to add to all of your rage-filled thoughts, but to say that Felicity clearly had a point in that first fight scene, because Oliver can't really trust her if he doesn't trust her not to break up with him on learning he has a child. If he really thinks she would do that...then I mean, how could he also think she's "the best?" How could you propose to a person who would break up with you over that? And even if you could, why would you, knowing the other shoe would have to drop someday? NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE. This felt exactly like an S3 episode, and I have strong fears that most of 4B will as well. I think Mama Smoak is around to nurse Felicity through whatever her injury is (and to make time with QL, obv), so that's happening. Then at some point, oh probably around February sweeps, Felicity will learn about the kid, one way or another but let's assume that it's in whatever way is worst. They break up, probably using the same love/trust language from the fight scene in this ep. Then I predict that the writers will do their damnedest to turn this shit around and make people happy again, so there will be a marked change in tone in about 415/416, like last season, but that will not be when O/F get back together. If they do. I'm with others that that won't happen until May sweeps time, possibly not until the very last moment. Ta-da! That's how you arc out the worst possible plotline, Arrow-style.