october

There's something about it all that makes me a little sad though. In the Captain Swan tags and even here in the spoilers thread there's a lot of talk about how happy Emma is when she's with Hook and how much he's in her corner, supporting her as best he can. Someone on Tumblr wrote that above all they ship Emma with happiness. Those CS fans aren't just happy Emma is with Hook; they're happy she's well... happy. But take a look at the Swan Queen side of things and there's little to no talk of Emma's happiness or well-being. They're actively rooting for it all to be a lie and for Emma to be manipulating Hook as the Dark One for some reason (even though we see enough of Emma's personal plight in Camelot to know that she's actively fighting the darkness at that point). There have been ships I've passionately disliked. I grew to loathe Cristina and Owen's relationship on Grey's Anatomy for example. Owen was the fictional character I hated the most before Regina overtook him in S4 of OUAT. That should give you an idea of how much I despised him. But when Owen did something nice for Cristina I acknowledged it and liked it, even as I thought they should divorce, because I cared about Cristina and wanted to see her treated well even if it's by a character I thought was trash. But to these particular SQ fans Hook's gestures and efforts are worth less than nothing. They're picking and choosing facial expressions from the sneak peek as if to reassure themselves that Emma is actually miserable the entire time. I've had the impression for a while that some of these hardcore swen don't care about Emma for her own sake, seeing her only as a thing Regina must have. But this really cements it. Emma's happiness doesn't matter, or doesn't even exist, unless she's with Regina.

A few of the more hardcore SQ fans (so not all of them, disclaimer etc) on Tumblr are reacting to this the same way they always do to every reality check. It's like the five stages of grief, fandumb edition, but without the final, crucial acceptance stage. So it's just denial through to depression and back around again. Apparently, Emma is totally faking everything in Camelot, except when she's alone with Regina. Then she's one hundred percent genuine and in love because reasons.

I agree with that, especially 5x02. The show wasted an opportunity to have Regina teach Robin to dance and to introduce him to the world of royalty and pageantry. Even when they were dancing it just looked like Lana and Sean messing about. When Hook and Emma were dancing I saw Hook and Emma, not Jen and Colin. Outlaw Queen is terribly developed even when they're at the centre of an episode.

I think Hook and Regina have had some great interactions, but I put a lot of that down to the character of Hook and Colin as an actor. Colin has a reputation for being a generous performer and I think it shows. He manages to engage his scene partners, which helps make even the smallest interactions more entertaining. He made me give a damn about Robin Hood and made me excited to see them break into Emma's house together. Of course the show didn't follow through on that potential because TS;TW. Romantically (please excuse me while I swallow back my own bile for a second) I think it would've had the same problems that Outlaw Queen has. Regina is like Hook's mirror opposite when it comes to her effect on others. The characters she's paired with tend to lose something in the process whether it be their backbones, moral fibre, guts, or several IQ points. I think the only thing that keeps Hook as an exception to that is that the two aren't even friends so he's able to maintain some distance from her and the writers, bless 'em, use what interactions they do have to bring some snark to the screen. As well as this show has been able to handle Hook, I think the writers love Regina more and he'd eventually fall victim to her bullshit in this scenario. For anything else to actually work Regina would have to be written very differently to how she's written now, which would practically make her a different character anyway. This is the same thing I say about Swan Queen: 'yes could work, but only if Regina wasn't Regina because Regina is Regina and Regina is the worst.' I disagree because I don't think Captain Swan has been taking up time that could've been used on Emma's other relationships and storylines. I think Hook has been used to enhance these aspects of Emma's journey. He's encouraged her to reach out to her parents, he's been proactive bonding with Henry, he's someone she can talk to about Neal, and he's supported her use of magic. I think the problem is that the writers are bad at making the most of the time they have had to build these other relationships and at following through on the dilemmas and conflicts they've introduced.

And what cracks me up when Evil Regals make arguments like that is that Snow did give her a second chance and Regina then tried to stab her to death. Even then Snow banished her rather than execute her. So Regina was literally given a second chance and a second second chance in the space of a couple of minutes. She pissed both of them away and then complained years later that no one ever had her back, that no one cares about her, and that no one has been screwed over more than her.

I agree that it makes sense for Emma to talk Neal up for Henry's sake, but that's not the root of most of the complaints here. Neal's relationship with Emma was highly problematic and unhealthy for a variety of reasons and the show has not addressed these concerns in a meaningful way. Even Jennifer Morrison once asked, at some convention years ago, when Charming was going to confront Neal over sending Emma to prison. The adults on this show, most notably Snow and Charming, never addressed the elephant carcass in the room that was Neal and Emma's relationship. The only mention of Neal's fail as a boyfriend, that I can remember, came from Hook in 3x10 when he mentioned Neal already walking out on Emma once before. If it was just Emma romanticising Neal for Henry's well-being, then okay. But the entire show has been whitewashing the guy for years. I strongly suspect the writers didn't see what the big deal was about a twenty something guy hooking up with a homeless 16/17 year old, and were shocked that so many fans had such a negative reaction to him. To this day I bet they put Neal's unpopularity purely down to shipper bias instead of the obvious issues the character had. Also, I admit to being a little uncomfortable when Emma compared Neal wooing her to Henry playing music for Violet. Henry's romance is so far innocent and age appropriate. And Emma's relationship with Neal was.... not.

This was one of those episodes where I liked it fine when I watched it, but only later in the day did I look back and think... 'wait, what?!' Comparing Emma to Cora? Really? What Emma did was wrong and it's right that her relationship with Henry takes a hit for that. But wouldn't a better comparison be that time Regina arranged for Henry to overhear Emma calling his beliefs about the town 'crazy'? Even then, Regina hurt Henry to get Emma out of town, not for some greater good. Plus she wasn't under the influence of thousands of years of dark magic and she hardly gave a damn about the damage to Henry as long as she got what she wanted. This would've been the perfect opportunity for Regina to fess up to her own, repeated parenting failures. Instead we have Saint Regina of Perpetual Woe whose pain doth dwarf the anguish of a thousand incinerated villagers. Spare me her crying over Daniel. She's done all that and worse to hundreds of innocent people, including children. But this episode literally bottled her tears for their assumed magical properties, so massive is her grief that we must dwell on it while her victims are a footnote. Jesus. Speaking of martyrs, it amuses me to no end that the writers only seem interested in giving Neal attention now that he's dead. Though I suppose he was always more of a macguffin than a person in his own right, existing to forward other characters' stories rather than have one of his own. While I did warm to young!Baelfire, his adult counterpart was IMO unappealing as a character in almost every way. I don't mind him being mentioned at all or Emma remembering parts of their relationship fondly. But the show has been terrible at acknowledging the massive harm he did, so every time they try to make me see him through heavily smudged, rose tinted glasses I just feel sick. I find myself only giving a damn about Henry because Emma loves him. Outside of that he can get shipped off to boarding school for all I care. Nice reminder from him in this episode that he bought Emma to Storybrooke so she could devote her life to the service of these ungrateful fucks. Emma was destined to break the curse, but it was Regina and Rumple who ruined people's lives. What justice is there in Emma not only mopping up their messes, but also working overtime to ensure they (or at least Regina) are as happy as possible? You know what? Forget Henry's broken heart. Dark Emma could nuke Storybrooke and I'd laugh myself unconscious. To end on a positive note, Jennifer Morrison is doing a good job in the role and I'm hoping to see more scenes with Emma (all variations) in later episodes, especially as her plan become clearer.

*a little early, but still...

This episode I liked, so much that I surprised myself. It's not in the 'best ever' category, but I was entertained. It's too much to hope that the writers have learned that less really is more where Regina is concerned, but I would be tickled pink if their 'toning down' of the character became the norm for the rest of the season. Hook and Emma continue to wreck me. The scene with Henry was also very cute. I'm glad they're not over-playing the first crush storyline. Again, less is more. Despite this being one of the oldest and most overdone love triangles in history, I found OUAT's version of the Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere storyline almost... compelling. I could see that Guinevere loved Arthur and understand why she was drawn to Lancelot. Not to mention it made sense to me that Arthur, knowing from childhood that he was destined for greatness, would eventually get carried away with his own bullshit. Merlin's a bit of a jerk then. He goes to small children, tells them their futures (cryptically) and leaves them to navigate a minefield with no guidance. Of course that doesn't justify Arthur joining Regina, Zelena and Neal in the OUAT sex offenders club. While watching the black goop surround Lancelot and Guinevere save him, all I could think was 'I bet SQ is gonna be all over that "parallel"'. I was getting ready to slam Snow and Charming for days until it was revealed that they'd engaged brains and been proactive. It's a shame the twist was dependant on the viewers believing that these two were still, after dozens of betrayals and nasty surprises, utterly naive and a detriment to their child's well-being.

Yeah, there was a brief trend in the mid-1990s in the UK where a lot of young soap stars had a go at a singing career. I was about 8 when this was going on, but I still remember Sean from his Grange Hill and EastEnders days.

When Will returned Belle's heart he told her that it was Regina that took it and Rumple told her why. So uh.. wtf?

I don't dislike Lily, but I just don't care about her either. I'd love to see her and Maleficent leave Storybrooke and get a happy ending together, but I see no reason for her to stick around for an entire arc. The slightly increased screen time we've seen for minor characters in the show has reminded me of how good this show can and could be, and of how much the show still needs to delve into the characters it already has. Have they mentioned her this season so far? I can't remember. This is a show I make a point of watching every week, but I totally forgot Lily existed. This does not bode well. She was only around for a couple of episodes but other minor characters have made more of an impression in less time. Not having Lily feature in early 5A so far isn't doing her character any favours either. Darkness or not, Lily already screwed Emma over multiple times and Emma has agreed to help her. Then we open the season with Emma missing and no idea whether Lily gives a shit. I have more investment in Emma and Regina's 'friendship' than I do her and Lily's, which is saying a lot considering how much I loathe the former relationship.

I've enjoyed reading the discussions surrounding this episode. I walked way from it feeling strangely content, but that's mainly because I'm excited for the (potential) pay-off. Then again TS;TW, so I won't hold my breath. Hook and Emma totally had me, as usual. I sympathise with both and I don't blame Hook for what he said. He has never said 'I love you' to Emma (not using those exact words), perhaps that's one of the reasons he refused to say it in present tense here and under these circumstances. He couldn't let the DO have that. I think that, rationally, Emma will understand why he didn't respond to her as he otherwise would have. Emotionally, on the other hand, and with her particular set of emotional baggage I think it's going to be rough. I'm not sure what I want to see happen. I don't want the angst to drag on forever and eat the relationship, but I don't want it dealt with in a 20 second scene before cutting away to show Regina sulking over a broken nail.

I agree. Regina is someone who has abused magic (stolen hearts, curses, etc) to control others before and has gotten away with it. Even though Emma gave her the dagger, Regina is a serial abuser who has been put in a position of power over one of her former victims. It would be one thing if Regina had learned over the years to treat others with empathy and not abuse her position for personal gain, but she hasn't as her attitude towards Emma in this episode shows. Someone who has changed would listen to others, not silence them and then laugh about. She's really not learned a thing. I want to be optimistic, but from what I know about the coming episodes I think this is it for me where Regina is concerned. I can't take it any more. She is vile.

If Zelena sees her baby as someone to love her (rather than a person in its own right whom she wants to be safe and happy) then Regina's threat seems pretty weak. It doesn't give Zelena much incentive to not keep trying to run away. Also, STFU Regina. You can't be complaining one episode that everyone only sees you as the Evil Queen, then whip out the persona and threats of murder when it suits you. I'm convinced the real reason you have the biggest house in town is that it's the only one with enough room for you, Henry, AND your victim complex.

Speaking of Robin's personality, I've been watching a YouTube video of Outlaw Queen's main interactions in 3B because I'd completely forgotten how their relationship played out in the beginning (though this may be my brain's defence mechanism kicking in and erasing certain OUAT sub-plots from memory for my own safety). I came away thinking that Robin had far more personality in 3B than I remembered. His snarking at Regina about her Black Knights terrorising him and his men almost made him seem like a different person to his watered down S4 and S5 persona. Regina was was incredibly rude and ungrateful towards him while they were breaking into Rumple's castle, but he was always ready to talk back. When I first watched 3B, Robin had seemed like someone who could, with careful planning, be a decent foil for Regina. But then something happened and any promise he had melted away as the season accelerated their relationship towards the finish-line in time for Marian's return. It's as if Regina emits some kind of radiation that, over time, strips away other character's personalities if they spend too much time near her. When they meet again in Storybrooke (sans memories of having met) Robin is telling her that her reputation proceeds her in one scene, then expressing disbelief that anyone could call her 'The Evil Queen' in the next. All the natural barriers to them even wanting to be in the same room as each other are bypassed entirely: Regina being a 'former' villain; her crimes directly impacting him and his people; obvious class and wealth differences (Regina living in the biggest house in town while Robin appears satisfied sleeping in a tent) etc. That's when Regina sees the lion tattoo and the writers then seem to be satisfied that they'd done enough build up to get these two together. From then on Robin becomes more and more unlikeable, his characterisation taking the biggest hit after Marian comes back. I find myself wondering what the character would be like now if he and Regina hadn't spent the end of 3B making kissy faces at each other and talking about fairy dust and tattoos. What if, instead, Robin and Regina had just gradually become friends in 3B with Robin helping her to turn over a new leaf and help others like he did? We'd learn more about him, see an actual redemption arc for Regina, and give the actors more time to adjust to working with one another. That'd disrupt the way S4 plays out, but I think that'd be a good thing because the Marian arc didn't do anyone any favours.

Someone on Tumblr pointed out something I'd missed: that Emma holds Killian's hook while they dance at the ball. I mean naturally she does, but during their dance in the S3 finale he was wearing a prosthetic hand. This show hasn't always dealt with Hook's disability well but I appreciate how comfortable he and Emma are with each other physically. So I'll add that to the list of things I liked about this episode.

Maybe he would've known that they were filthy egg-nappers.

This episode was a real mixed bag for me. I liked Hook and Emma's scenes, Jen killing it as Dark Swan, the amount of make-up Hook wore to the ball, Charming giving Henry dating advice, and the sight-gag of Regina going straight for her Evil Queen outfit when Snow told her to wear a dress. But the rest... okay, despite hoping for the best after last week, I was entirely underwhelmed by Regina's Saviour Moment, mainly because the episode IMO failed to properly answer the question it set up: can Regina lead the people and get them to believe in her? She already proved at the end of S2 with the failsafe that she'd sacrifice her life for whoever happened to personify her Happy Ending that week (in that case, Henry and now, Robin). So her throwing herself after the Fury wasn't surprising or new. Then she blamed Rumple for her own life choices, showing a stunning but unsurprising lack of self awareness and going against the lesson she learned at the end of S4 about her being in charge of her own future. Her abuse of the dagger and dismissive attitude to Emma's feelings in Camelot was distasteful, even more so considering Emma goes on to make yet another sacrifice for this shitty, ungrateful harpy. And another of her victims dies a violent death and no one cares, because 'poor child murdering, village slaughtering Regina!' The scene with Snow and Emma was nice, but felt tacked on. Regina should've been teaching Robin to dance. It would've given us an Outlaw Queen moment that wasn't Robin looking constipated with worry or standing around while Zelena gloats over having raped him. My frustration doesn't come from a place of hating Regina. I'm frustrated because instead of giving the character her own awesome story, the writers are obsessed with making her a gross, stitched together doppleganger of Emma and Snow. Regina's story could be about mercy, empathy and her reaching out to her past victims to make amends. Even her lamentations about being seen as the Evil Queen make it seem as if she's blaming other people for seeing her the wrong way. It's all a matter of their perception of her, rather than her lack of actual remorse and decency. Instead we get an episode where a high status woman of royal blood who has lived a life of material luxury and comfort 'finally gets to be a princess'. (╯°□°)╯︵ ʍoɥs sᴉɥʇ

This is where I'm at with them too. I enjoy their S1 dynamic because Emma was able to give as good as she got from Regina. If that was still the case I could buy SQ so much more. Imagining for argument's sake that I did think Regina and Emma had great romantic and sexual chemistry- even then I wouldn't want SQ because chemistry (as well as being highly subjective and in the eye of the beholder IMO) isn't enough. I think this show can't, or simply won't, handle Regina's character arc in an honest and rational way and her 'friendship' with Emma has consisted of repeated verbal and emotional abuse which the show has treated as 'harmless sass'. I think the friendship alone has been to Emma's detriment as a character. If Outlaw Queen is any indication, the fire and conflict between Regina and Emma that attracted so many shippers would be extinguished entirely if they became a romantic couple. Emma would end up like Robin- no personality and no will of her own (though to be honest, I've encountered SQers who'd probably prefer Emma that way). Chemistry or not, this wouldn't be a satisfying story. Maybe in the hands of other writers, but not with TS;TW.

Most of them I think. I rarely see SQ fans on Tumblr or twitter with Emma in ther icons for example. Most have a very 'Evil Queen' aesthetic going on. There's a strong overlap, which isn't surprising. The idea of SQ as a canon couple is based very much on faith in Regina's redemption. But Regina has become such a 'love her or loathe her' kind of character among the core fanbase, that SQers usually have to devote more time defending her than talking about Emma. Emma and her parents were the main targets of Regina's evil for a long time. To get others to buy that they'd forgive her you have to argue that Regina really has changed or downplay exactly how badly Regina treated them. So I think all this encourages a very Regina-centric view of the show.

Exactly. Regina has, repeatedly, insulted and demeaned other people and their abilities. From her treatment of Emma (especially during 4x05) to making cracks about Hook's disability to those disgusting things she said to young Pinocchio (all of which she did without being possessed by darkness). So I'm entirely unmoved by her existential crisis. Also, Regina is still mayor (isn't she?) So technically she's in a leadership role already even without this 'saviour' business. Or is the town mayor just a figurehead now, while the towns people expects the saviour to do the actual work in keeping the town safe and secure? If so, Emma's role and life is starting to look even more unfair. This is one of the few shows where I'm rooting for the hero to just pack up and leave town for good.

Wow. I've joked about how the writers won't rest until they've transplanted as much as they can from Emma's story onto Regina's, but this is amazing. And as people have pointed out it doesn't even make sense. That it's her first ball with Robin is meaningful enough. Hell, why not have her teach Robin to dance? This show makes me so uncomfortable.

Here's the YouTube link for the 5x02 sneak peak.