kminfinity

In S4 BtVS, Faith swaps bodies with Buffy and sleeps with Riley, which causes one more long term problem in the Buffy-Riley relationship, especially since he doesn't realize he's slept with a dopple/body snatcher. I'm not saying Flash has to go there, but if Iris and Barry are NOT intimate the show really needs to state that and have Barry worry about it. They hinted at it already.

Normally, I’d try to post a sensible response but this deserves merely random commenting… *Crappy fanfic writers could have done a better job plotting the past three seasons. Luckyroll3, I agree…should have been easy to tie Black Claw into this mundane ending. *Even from S1, this show has always had more potential than it ever achieved. Throughout its run, there were so many elements that were so strong, and so many cool mythic ideas stillborn, that I think I am more annoyed than I should be. If it had just been crap from beginning to end and all around, I’d have shrugged and moved on. *The one stupid finale plot for me was how long it took the gang to realize the demon was tracking Nick and the stick. *The actors (well, most of ‘em) consistently made the very best of bad material. Like, Roiz made that brief moment of reflection and regret from Renard almost close that book and erase all that crap to the point where I can almost imagine him hanging out with Nick at a family holiday event. *If someone bothered to collect every single Black Claw scene, even scenes when they are only mentioned, in order to retcon a cohesive series bible for them, even in hindsight nothing would make sense. :D *My fanwank of the finale ending: Once the stick was “whole” it has super-duper powers, and can intuitively fix one’s problems. And might even have a mind of its own, but borrows from the wielder. Sort of like the One Ring in LOTR. It will play an active role in finding a user, and even try to use its wearers to reach Sauron, but the one wearing the ring can use its powers to achieve things too. So the stick wants to recreate what Nick wants.

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not. I watched the original run, and generally loved the show, despite the many flaws and annoying plot elements and differences of opinions I found myself harboring about the writers' directions and choices. That said, I was surprised by how seriously underwhelmed and disappointed I was with the show when I binge watched S1 and S2 this past week. In general, when I binge a good show, I am so immersed I love it, whether it's the first time I've seen it, or a repeat viewing - for all the reasons so many people like binge watching. But GG actually seems to suffer from the process. The flaws are more noticeable, the characters less likable, the town less charming. I guess it's analogous to the case of too much candy at Halloween? Since I agree with those who feel that the show's quality incrementally decreased with each season, I am thinking I will not binge the whole series but pick out certain episodes to watch instead. Too bad, I was looking for something to replace my DS9 binging.

Love this episode so much. The whole S5 has been great, and has me mourning-in-advance. I liked the way the show incorporated "great filter" and how it's laid the groundwork well in providing Samaritan with a strong backstory and an internally consistent justification.

Oh I am perfectly okay with people liking one character or another, (Hey I was fine with the sliver of Riley fans :P ) I just am surprised that there's enough of them to sway writers and plots. Out of curiosity, does PTV get the numbers of page views and attention that would attract the attention of TPTB of the shows? (Grimm or otherwise)

I could write a long post damning with faint praise. I guess it boils down to the finale being a lot better than I feared. I did like some of it - the bad ass fighting; fast paced plotting; some cool scenes and events, with Monrosalee's pregnany at the top of the list; I also really liked that Diana took out Bonaparte, but am a little leery seriously worried the writers won't explore the use of power with Diana in any sensible fashion. This is so true. The Black Claw could have been a good, nuanced subarc exploring righteously upset Wessen who feel compelled to join despite hating the leaders and their global dominance games. Given that Nick is the first Grimm who seems to have understood the idea that being Wessen doesn't require an automatic death sentence, the Wessen community at large definitely has some justification for wanting change. What a waste of good plot material. The frustration with this show for me continues to be that the characters, big ideas, and myths are so creative and filled with so much potential, yet it all ends in such epic fail territory. Is there really a big Juliette fanbase? really? geez.

I had Michele picked edgically, but boy I hate being right. Phhht....

Great post. ITA on all points. I am surprised more people haven't commented on Pandora's comparison of IchAbbie and her relationship with THO. P+THO is/was clearly a romantic/sexual relationship, a marriage she even calls it. So the fact she uses IchAbbie as the model of a real, strong powerful relationship, and comes right out and states that they love one another, is huge for long term story. I'm sorry so many people are so disencahnted with TPTB that they can't trust a developing story to bear fruit, or that the show will be renewed. Hey, I was a huge Firefly fan, so cue the violins. But even knowing what might-not-ever-be, I am not supporting a rushed story. It is not yet time for IchAbbie. Also - Add me to the list of people who think Danny dies in the finale. After revealing to Abbie that he was really spying on her, not in love with her? Or maybe, started out as a 'job' to romance her and becomes real just as he dies and reveals all? That will rock her in several ways for next season in a good way.

I enjoyed this episode a lot. It was well written and hit all the beats the story needed. The writing was even able to breathe enough to include some really reflective subtext and context for the villains. My favorite parts: Crane and The Hidden One discussing Art; everything with Jenny and Joe (!!!!); the clever 'eavesdropping scene' foreshadowed with the donuts, then developed when THO hears Pandora admit she knew Abby had the magic Thura thingy; the humor playing easily off the drama and the action... A+ ETA I'm here. I really like your analysis of the way they counterpoint Abbie and Crane. I don't think it's necessary to dislike Jenny and Joe in order to love Abbie and Crane. They bring different vibes to the story. I do understand that some think their story/screentime comes at the cost of Abbie and Crane and that's a legitimate concern. But I did always think the romance would be a very VERY slow burn, and take several seasons to bear fruit, and I'm actually glad they aren't rushing it to placate a fandom. The problems with Sleepy Hollow imo is not/has not been that Ichabbie is not already a romantic couple. I will be sad though, if we don't get seasons 3-4-5 to see it play out as it should.

The show IS called Younger, so I guess they will try to keep the deception a while. Maybe each season someone new finds out... Kelsey at the end of this season or early S3? I'd guess Diana and Charles are later.

I've come around to liking Josh a lot. I don't know if Charles is the long-term plan, or end-game, but I hope if/when Josh goes they don't demonize him. That one episode earlier this season worried me.

I agree. This episode was actually not bad. It has a whole lot of bad baggage it ignored and a big nasty arc that won't get better over the season, but this episode reminded me of some of the things I liked in the early seasons. A lot can be forgiven if Monroe's getting his righteous Blutbad on, and the team dynamic gets a bit of attention. The reset needs to be quick and dirty and skate over a lot of crap but it could be done. Eve and Adelind join forces to save Nick and both die destroying the Black Claw, the keys reveal a whole underground castle full of grimm stuff that stocks a new grimmbago, Nick raises Kelly alone and we get back to CotW withn a subtle long arc exploring character development as Nick (finally) finds his Yoda mentor in all things Grimm. I have very little faith in these writers, so maybe this episode's improved quality was a random act of chance. But maybe someone in the writers' room finally got a clue...

Still no official confirmation it's a "Second Chances" style All-Star season?

I'm really liking this more and more, because it does seem to be delving into characters and how they are dealing with the challenges, rather than harping on the tired "who are the aliens and what do they want' as the main focus. I think the show may be more about whether to act out or keep the peace, rather than being just about a battle against the aliens. I'd add that the story is exploring choices in general - where are the lines "you" won't cross? what will you do to survive? How do you juggle competing goals? I like this aspect a LOT. Katie's mission - I think they did a good job showing the nitty gritty of rebellion. Very messy. Lots of collateral damage. Ambiguous goals especially in the beginning. The whole point to all that death was just to get some data on response times for the drones (Stopwatch One) and HS (Stopwatch Two). The supplies were a secondary issue, probably to provide good will to encourage people to look favorably on geronimo despite the collateral damage going forward. Which also came out in the radio broad cast, which I LOVED! Will and Katie keeping secrets - I do think Will and Katie should share their secrets. I assume they think they are keeping each other safe. But - too much secrecy results in weak effectiveness in any organization, and they should see that in this case, given Will's skills. Which makes it even worse that she continues to hide it form him, and HE TOO is hiding stuff from her.* Geronimo – Not a person, but an ideal. I think it's going to be a "John Galt" scenario. Will inside Homeland Security - Here's where I think this is going: *FROM ABOVE: Will wants to save his son. That's priority one. He needs to gain HS's trust quickly, so he's gangbusters getting the job done. BUT.... In the bar's back storeroom he alludes to having a longer range plan. WAG time: I think he might ALREADY be in the resistance, or plans to join them, and that depends on his early acceptance into HS. In fact, if anyone is Geronimo, I am betting it's him. No one knows it, not even the guys directly under him taking orders. He was a Ranger, then a top FBI guy. He has the skills to have started the resistance and could be directing them anonymously. But he doesn't know the low level stuff directly,so he doesn't realize (yet) his wife is involved. Beau's story - Just getting along... At some point, he will have a crisis of conscience. Probably have to step up and sacrifice himself for Will. San Fran and Kentucky - We learn LA is cut off it most ways, especially news of the outside. And from the son's GF, that everyone outside the Wall is gone. Her knowledge of getting outside the wall is going to be a HUGE plot point. Love that so far all she sees is to use it for scavenging. Son will see the bigger picture. LOVED seeing Adam Busch as the school teacher... He's going to figure into this plot I think. Broussard at the bar - That actually rang true for me. The Purloined Letter strategy. Hide in plain site. If his face is not known, no big deal at all. The creepy tutor - I loved Erin Way in Alphas. Her role here is unclear. Initially, we're to suspect her as a plant from the Proxy Snyder dude, but I'm betting she is resistance, to keep an eye on Katie.

Ghost of TWOP Past I very much agree with this. I'd add that from the human POV it is also a tragedy that to 'ascend' and evolve, one must give up the very things that define one's humanity. So the twist is that existence is tragic either way. I'm not sure the caterpillar/butterfly metamorphosis metaphor applies. I guess it does if you agree both the butterfly and the children as Overmind are destined. But the tone of the novel and, to its credit, the mini series, is about loss, so that seems to rule out a happy future. I guess there's a case to be made that 'progress' or evolution is its own justification, but you'd think ACC would have made a stronger case for that POV or else shown why joining the Overmind is a good thing. But he doesn't.

Well, I'll be hate-watching from here on in. Actively looking for shit to bitch about. (Sadly, I too have this disorder that won't allow me to drop a show once I'm into S2.) I will try to note a few things I still appreciate. I'll start there. -Love Wu, Rosalee, and Monroe. Their character arcs haven't been destroyed. -The premise remains a potentially great background for awesome stories, and still often provides wonderful characters. Okay, now all the hate begins. -Juliette was a 'meh' character in the midst of good ones. She's now become a truly horrible character who rivals S4 Cordelia from Angel in terms of the depth of crap she's sunk into. I echo those who would rather deal with a Nadalind triangle with Meisner than the return to the Wooden Bitch. -To add to Ottermom's comments: I think the real sadness is that Grimm has so many good characters who have been served so poorly by bad writing and lousy stories. -I could enumerate a bunch of specific examples of things I hate, but in general it's like the Show just can't execute. Whatever good ideas or characters or plots or arcs are proposed in the writers room simply turn into cliche and soapy melodrama. It's like they don't respect genre fantasy, and think they can 'do anything' and the mindless fantasty geeks will lap it up.

Well that was just awful. The few things I liked were overwhelmed by too much mess and melodrama. It didn’t even make timey-wimey sense, let alone any other kind of sense. Echoing a lot of posts above that summed up the many reasons I disliked this episode: • The whole sturm-und-drang of the Doctor-Clara relationship just never worked for me. I was a Ten fan DESPITE some of the megalomaniacal melodrama – I could overlook even the stuff with Special Snowflake Rose because at least she and Ten seemed to have SOME common sense and boundaries. I get that his arrogance and refusal to face loss and consequences are key character flaws for The Doctor, and many plots and stories have examined those flaws well. Having Doctor Twelve acknowledge he’s crossed his own lines and broken his own rules while he keeps doing it goes beyond the Doctor’s normal arrogance and essential character to the point he's become a caricature. • I never thought I’d miss #11 – too young, not enough gravitas for my taste. But (the writing for) Capaldi is just too far in the other direction. The bitterness and darkness are too OTT. • Big agree that the Gallifrey material was (as usual) confusing. And weaker than usual. I could list a half dozen WTF moments. This one stands out for me: The Doctor gives the throwaway line that it ‘doesn’t matter’ how Gallifrey returned. Sorry, that little cheat didn’t work for me. • I’m just horrified that The Doctor used A GUN to shoot an ALLY. For shame. • So this whole season long plot is driven by the problem of the Hybrid? And the Hybrid is the COMBO of The Doctor and Clara? And Clara has pushed The Doctor into un-Doctor-like behavior? Nope. Doesn’t work for me. We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her. • I’m still struggling with the idea that The Mire medical kit can create immortality. Really? So Moffat decides the season long plot needs an immortal as the Hybrid red herring (or maybe the actual Hybrid? Are we sure we know yet?) and with one of the most ridiculous handwavey actions in the whole 50+ years of Dr. Who suddenly we have immortal Lady Me. • Quote by John Potts Clapping!

I'm not sure how much the writers are lifting ideas from other successful Whedon shows, but Ward's arc has a lot in common with Spike's right now. He's the enemy, he has lots of connections with the good guys, he's attracted to The Chosen One Daisy. I agree if they are going to use him he would be much better without the Hydra rehash. For a minute, back in S2, I thouight they were going in a different direction and would have him somewhat redeemed, with SHIELD grudgingly needing his help but never really able to trust him.

I'm enjoying S3 a lot more than I expected, so count me among the 'renewed' fans. I definitely think Ichabbie is Endgame if we get 5-7 seasons. I kinda hope they don't do what Castle and Bones did and we don't get the relationship/marriage in medias res. (I expect some in-epsiode commentary of this in the crossover.) I think it will work better if there is a well developed reason they need to remain platonic, although some good old fashoned soap opera-ish subtext and pining could be good, sort of like if Buffy and Angel had stayed true to the mission and not ever hooked up. I think some of the dialgue folks noted suggest this future path very well. I also really like how much we are seeing Jennie as part of the team. I'm not sold on Joe Corbin as a main cast player. It also seems like FBI guy (can't remember his name) is being shoehorned in right now, but maybe there really is a strong, long term arc that will use these guys well. I'm starting to have faith that I can move from episode love to season love. ::crossing fingers:: Two nit-picks. First, I'd like a stronger 21st century situation for Crane. Yes it's good they've established that he's living with Abbie and seeking citizenship, but I'd like to see him with his own cash (inherits an English Crane fortune? I'm okay with hand-wavey backfill) and career (uses the furtune to establish that historical society and becomes a professor?) I think the foreshadowing is there to make it happen and it will ground Crane better. Second, I think by E4 it's time for a little more background on Pandora. I like that we learned she's Sumerian, and the spec about her and the tree are good, but until we get some grand purpose for her she's coming off like a bratty mean girl rather than a true villain with an evil vision. Again, I am not entirely ready to trust the long term arc for the season, so the sooner this happens the better I can anticipate what's coming.

Things I think…. In General> Juliet has always been uninteresting. Then they had the idea to make her a hexenbiest, which could have been interesting, even cool, and they screwed that up. She better be dead-dead. The Buffy rip-offs are obvious to me, and executed poorly. Too many things don’t make sense, mostly because of poor writing. If the writers had skill and took care to remember that science fiction and horror and fantasy have internally consistent laws they could really make this show awesome. There’s a ton of potential in the premise and with the characters. It may be too late to hope, though. About this episode> Glad Kenneth and The King are dead. The King especially seemed like a weak, unimposing figure who could never have fathered Sean or Eric or Victor, or even Kenneth. Glad Bud, and Wu, and Hank, and Monroesalie are all safe. I don’t mind significant deaths that the Show earns, but in this particular finale any death other than Juliette’s would have been a weak attempt to manufacture justification for a Juliette save. Which better not happen. Hank had some especially great lines. Loved his stuff with Renard. Renard returns and settles in as a police captain and an honrary member of Team Grimm? Uh.. no? I am assuming that Renard will somehow need to assume the royal mantle at some point. To undermine the Royals? Or because he is corrupted by the power? I have no idea how the Show will move the Royal Palace permanently to Portland, but that’s what I see happening. Renard can then become the thing he feared, and the resistance can focus on him as a betrayer of the cause. I am guessing that the FBI lady is connected to Trubel. Either she knew this was going down and wants to catch Trubel ‘in the act’ of murder and can then leverage it, or else Trubel is an unwilling Resistance/FBI asset? I dunno. I hate when my speculation is muddied by the knowledge that bad writing needs to be a factor. :P The scene with Juliette and Nick at the end should have been breaking my heart ( ) but nope, not a pang or a tear. Makes no sense that Diana seems so unaffected by Kelly’s death. So she must really be alive and there was a plot, and that’s why we never saw her close up. Except, see third note above. Love Miesner’s return. He should definitely stay in Portland, become a member of Team Grimm (they are NOT the Scoobies), marry Adelind, and fall tragically when she becomes evil again. Meanwhile, Kelly could take baby Grimm away to raise after Nick tearfully admits babies do not belong in Portland. Diana can stay because super special royal powers will cause her to magically grow up and become a teen in one summer, and become the one girl in all the world, the chosen one. She alone will wield the strength and skill to fight the vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness; to stop the spread of their evil and the swell of their number. Oh wait….wrong show.

Sigh. The season started so strong. TPTB continue to mishandle Juliette and ruin what could be an interesting storyline. I can count at least four hexenbiests we've seen: Catherine Schade; Adelind; Renard's mom Elizabeth; and Renard's friend who was advising Juliette. (forgot her name). None of them, not even Adalind, have been as childish and silly as Juliette. Not even the excuse of 'sudden Hexen syndrome' is enough to account for her actions and behavior. it's just bad writing of poorly dramatic conflict, not thought through, not well developed, not carefully crafted. There's so much potential here, but the story seems trite and shallow because the emphasis isn't on Juliette's struggles or her very real tragic circumstances, instead it comes off as if she's immature and entitled. And even, a bit, sort of racist, if you think of Wesen as a people. This story just hits way too many sour notes and bad beats. Organic conflict and angst should be easy to wring from this setup.

I am another who is very displeased with The Great Paige Reveal. For lot of reasons already discussed, but especially because I agree that the KGB surely had to have a plan for this moment, and P&E did not follow it. Because if there WASN’T a plan, these folks are big fools, and while I question a lot of the decisions (fact and fiction) made by spy vs spy strategy, I’m pretty confident that keeping the lid on secrecy is Job One. So either…. P&E should have hustled Paige out and had Gabriel ‘assess and intervene’ even to the point of restraining Paige, or there should have been a cover story ready until THEY were ready to initiate the reveal in the hopes of recruiting Paige. Even a short scene of Elizabeth insisting to Phillip that they need to notify Gabriel (with Paige listening right there, to see the priority) and Phillip rejecting the SOP would have made the whole reveal 1000 times better, imo, showing Paige immediately the shades between Phillip and Elizabeth. A lot of people are criticizing Stan for lying to Taffet about another woman, because it’s so easy to check…except, as far as Gaad and the FBI knows (officially) he was playing her as an asset. He was just doing his duty, same as P&E. The romance/sex was him acting undercover, not ‘real.’ At least, that’s what I assume he’d say if challenged. LOL at all of the spec about 'Henry, the superspy. Especially Redhawk’s post. :D In support of Henry being more than meets the eye, his Mr. Robinson skit, revealing a definite subversive bent.

Pretty weak episode. Didn't like the worm-wesen much. I thought it was predictable and sort of pathetic. And the Juliette arc reverts to the worst-possible-Juliette version. This show just can't do right by this character. Just when I think they've come up with a good story for her as a hexenbiest, they ruin it with soapy silliness and bad writing. Handled correctly, this could play off some of the same notes that Buffy-Angel played. But it weakens the entire show overall when the team as a whole isn't respected enough to be there for Juliette, when in the awesome opening season episodes the team comes through for Monroe. For Juliette to assume she can't turn to anyone except Renard is just bad writing. If they really want to make that case, then they needed to do some subtle writing along the way to develop an organic reason (or reasons) for her lack of faith in Nick, Rosalee, etc. I think they thought the dream of her killing Rosalee should be enough, but we have never been given any reason to assume that a hexenbiest has so little self control she can't be trusted around friends and family. And even if that's true, then ACKNOWLEDGE it, discuss it with the gang, have Juliette get an apartment, work on the issue, struggle with the control, learn and grow. Instead we are left with the seeming idea that juliette is sulky-girl.

I'm with those who enjoyed the episode, especially for its determination to course correct in preparation for S3. There were a lot of great things people already have noted, especially the grounded relationships between Abbie and Ichabod, and Jenny and Frank. I'm sorry to lose John Noble, who could have been awesome as Sin Eater Henry, no-relation-to-CFD. But it's better to lose him than keep even the ghost of the CDF in play. And close the door FAST on any supernatural resurrection, the way the door was closed on Tara in BtVS. I suggest his return after defeating Moloch used up his last life or somesuch. I do disagree with people who thought Katrina's sudden flipflop to evil was out of nowhere. First, I don't think she was ever well developed enough as a Team Witness ally. More important, I think her late-game actions are, by her standards, not evil but justified. It makes sense to me that when Henry returned, she decided to place him ahead of any priority. So, then it follows that she decided to commit to Henry's cause, and 'accept her roots' so to speak. Both of those plot points could have been handled more smoothly and sold more easily by a better actress, but -> Yes. The story was hurt by two things - The plot was rushed, being course-correction rather than organically developed from the beginning; and KW just can't sell subtlety, let alone ambiguity and confused plotting. But this is a far better place we're in with the show than we were when S2 began.

Au contraire! ;-D YES! This would be an excellent way to keep Henry, the Horseman of War, but minimize the CFD... And maybe it's Henry possessing Frank - then 'Frank' can kill Katrina, and then cast out Henry, and we can keep RealFrank.