weathered1

I think the overall problem with most Oscar telecasts being so long and dull and that include segments that could've easily been cut is that the Academy takes itself very, very seriously. So, when they have the chance to show things like actors fawning over other actors and films, they'll take it and run with it, far past the point when it becomes clear that it drags the show down. Personally, I thought those particular segments were basically interesting, but were way too long. I also thought the tourist/tour bus bit ran way too long. re: the fiasco/snafu/whatever it was: I can't blame Damien Chazelle for having that look on his face. From everything I've heard and read, he poured his heart and soul into that film, so I'm sure in that moment, it felt like one hell of a blow to have that recognized and then be taken away in such a public, humiliating fashion. All things being equal, it still blows my mind that the entire thing would never have happened if the PwC person had just looked at the envelope.

I think it did go Actor-Actress-Picture. I don't understand why the person from PWC didn't, I don't know, look to see what envelope he or she was handing out. I also don't understand why Warren and Faye didn't glance at it either. Warren did have to deal with a surreal, odd situation in front of a whole bunch of people, but he's not exactly shy - I'm not sure what kept him from saying something about it, since he knew the contents of the envelope were obviously wrong for the category. I don't think he handed it off to Faye so she'd be the one responsible; I think he was trying to show her that they'd gotten the wrong card. Why she didn't think Emma Stone's name in big letters on the card was odd enough that it would've kept her from reading the movie's name, I don't know. I do feel bad for the La La Land people - just seeing the whispered conversations spreading and then all of their faces falling was sad. Horowitz did handle things remarkably well, considering the extreme disappointment he (and everyone else up on that stage) must have been feeling. It does also suck for the people responsible for Moonlight. (I haven't seen it yet but I intend to as I keep hearing how excellent it is.) What should've been a victorious moment with the buzz revolving around the win being a huge upset, it was instead a moment of prolonged disbelief, confusion, and frustration (when people didn't initially believe the wrong movie had been named), that was then followed by the shock and the joy. It does give the movie a ton of attention - arguably more than it would've gotten had the win been announced correctly - but the moment was still marred for all involved.

That's exactly how I look at this possibility (probability?). He's done good things as GA, but I don't think those deeds totally counterbalance or outweigh the actions he's taken over the years that fall firmly into that grey area or worse. There would be a lot of people who would stand against him because of that and not consider him to be a hero. Revealing his identity would cause a lot more harm than good, imo, and it's really not something that I want to see. At all. re: the other topic being discussed, I know people have their set views on the statements we get from SA and the nincompoops in charge, and both main sides of it - those who think the words can be believed and those who are doubtful - have evidence to back them up. After watching this show since day one, I've veered from the former into the latter category, and now I'm firmly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. When forces outside the show itself interfere; when the showrunners and writers do often find themselves distracted and seemingly winging it (at least, that's how it appears); when what we see on the screen doesn't make sense, doesn't receive positive feedback, but they double down on it and drag it out interminably (one example would be Susan) . . . I, personally, can't put much stock in what's said. If I were going to play devil's advocate here, all I would add is that I wouldn't expect SA to say anything different, not when they're working at integrating Dinah at a relatively slow pace compared to how other characters have been shoehorned in over the years, and not when, as far as the viewers are supposed to be concerned, Oliver is all about Susan at the moment (just typing that makes the contents of my stomach rise in protest). Going back to the Susan debacle, I know that many think she's a ship stall for Olicity and that may well be the case. I'm not sure the writers look at her that way, though, simply because if that was the point, it could have been accomplished in any number of other ways: Malone and the aftermath of his death, Oliver maybe going on random dates with random women he randomly ran into the course of being mayor (whenever he randomly chose to do that), and the list goes on. I tend to think they're going to twist themselves into storytelling pretzels - gee, that's something new and different - to give her some kind of actual purpose, and I do think that will tie into Prometheus, Talia, Russia, or some combination thereof.

Yep. Like walking into walls. I do think Dinah is part of his security team now or something, especially with the media mob that was surrounding him in that one pic. As for Susan, I agree that she's probably publishing her own news blog, and will be on the hunt for a big story in order to get her job and "reputation" (ha!) back. It makes me throw up a little in my mouth to think about it, but I can see Oliver trying to apologize and get her back, because that's the kind of thing he'd do this season.

I'd think that if Susan "forgives" him, she'll do it as a ruse while redoubling her efforts to take him - and probably Thea, maybe Felicity - down.

Or who can tie his shoes without using the bunny ears method.

At the very, very least, I'd say that Felicity deserves a man who actually learns from his mistakes.

I agree with all of that. Before Oliver can be in a viable relationship with anyone, they need to do some serious rehab on the character. It doesn't matter if the way he's been this season has been purposeful or if the writing really is just that terrible; either way, he's unlikable, he's regressed emotionally by a tremendous degree, he's forgotten all of the lessons he's supposed to have learned, and the list of his negative attributes goes on and on. Right now, he's not a good romantic partner. Period (imo, of course). If the network and/or WB were to step in (which...who knows when or if they would), I don't think they'd automatically start by coupling him up because there are a lot of people out there who do not like what this character has become and think that pretty much anyone woman deserves far better than him as a romantic partner.

They may think they're writing him as being optimistic and happy and sunshine, puppies, and rainbows, but the way it plays is that the man has lost every one of his brain cells. Every single one. For awhile, I was hopeful that he was playing the reporter, but I think we would've seen some kind of sign of that by now - nothing major or overt, just an extended shot of him looking at her in a certain way or something like that. The way it stands, though, he's the reigning president and only member of Susan's fanclub. If, and that's a ginormous if, the big twist is that he has been playing her, has been manipulated somehow, or has been taken out of commission (and forced to watch episodes of a formerly entertaining superhero/vigilante/comic book-based show as punishment), I'm sure they think it will make us scurry back to rewatch the entire season to look for clues. In that, they're even dumber than I thought. Spending so many episodes making him this unlikable and this mentally deficient only to (maybe) pull a gotcha! kind of twist at some point in the future doesn't come close to fixing all of the damage that's been caused.

I mean . . . there just aren't words anymore for what they've done to Oliver - nothing can adequately cover the depth of dumb which he now personifies. There is not any reason whatsoever - there just isn't - that he should've been so certain Susan wouldn't have used the info she'd dug up on him *even after sleeping with him*!! If sex wasn't enough to get her to stop investigating him, sex wouldn't be enough to compel her to not use said info. The stupid: it burns. Did Susan deserve those professional repercussions? Oh, hell yes. Her behavior is so far removed from staying true to journalistic ethics that she should've lost the job ages ago, especially since I wouldn't exactly be shocked to discover that she's used super shady means in the past to get her stories since, you know, she's such a "good" reporter. Sigh. My worry about the way it happened, though, is that it's going to cause her to go after others, especially (possibly only) Thea. And what will we hear from Oliver? "You shouldn't have pushed her, Thea. She was a good person until you did this to her." Plus, there would be guilt from Felicity for the role she played, and that doesn't sound appealing at all, since this all hinges on such a thoroughly unlikable, useless character (I'm referring to Susan, though the description could also apply to the "hero" right now). At this point, this is not run-of-the-mill stupidity from Oliver, the likes of which we've dealt with at various points over the years. This? This is something else entirely. I've seen talk about his speech patterns and mannerisms being different, and all I can say is, that better be purposeful. We'd better find out that something has incapacitated him, replaced him, or psychotropically allowed him to be manipulated and played like a (morose, empty-headed) puppet.

Perhaps she took a look at the wigs used on the show and went, "No thanks. I'll pass."

It's official - the wig is bad (and just plain wrong) on everyone. For a very special episode to be effective, it's probably a good idea for it to have some sort of long-term repercussions, not to immediately forget about it the very next week. Otherwise it is, quite literally, a waste of everyone's time. As far as JH goes, no, of course she doesn't have a huge amount of fan activity yet, and I never said otherwise. I think that's pretty obvious because it's only been the 3 episodes, and it's not as though she's gotten tons of screentime, as of yet. My point - which I was making respectfully, btw - is that to ascribe her support to just one group isn't entirely accurate. And I'll reiterate that she's only a "threat" to Emily if the powers that be decide they want to go in an entirely different direction, throw the show's history completely out the window, and deliberately alienate all of her fans and large swaths of the media. They're stupid, stubborn, and spiteful, don't get me wrong; but they're not that stupid. I'd say that EBR's status as the female lead is safe for as long as she wants to remain on the show and/or for as long as the show continues.

I would just add that JH's positive feedback isn't just coming from comic fanboys. Do they like her and respond positively to the name? Of course. However, though they may arguably be the most vocal, that's not the only corner or group from which her support is coming. re: female lead changes - I think the problem is that this show, run by these people, makes trying to predict anything extremely difficult if not impossible. If DC pressured the show to add the BC back into the mix, would they have similarly pressured the show to make sure she's a real presence and not just wallpaper? I can see that. That said, even though the people in charge tend to make incredibly stupid decisions, I don't think EBR is in any danger of losing her female lead status - she's still got the screentime, the stories, and the buzz, and I don't see any of that changing. The most they would do, if anything, is have co-female leads, but even that is probably a longshot at this point. It all just depends on what they want to do, and since they don't make decisions based on anything logical, I think this is just yet another wait and see kind of situation.

I was thinking about Willa's bts issues (whatever they may be), too. If she worked them out/stopped them, then I could see them coming up with a way to sideline for awhile -like an injury, coma, or leaving town to deal with her issues - but not write Thea out completely. If the situation remains something with which they don't want to deal, they'll write her out entirely.

I don't think they'd kill Thea. I do think it's not out of the realm of possibility that they'll write her off by having her leave town. Which would suck, to put it maturely.

Yeah, I truly do think that's just the way she is. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if she was also told to be flirtatious in order to show that aspect of the BC's personality that hadn't really been seen in the previous iterations.

It's interesting how subjective it is, isn't it? There are some who truly don't think there's any chemistry there. Others see it. Some think SA doesn't like his scenes with her. Others see him acting engaged by her and the material, with his expressions and reactions fitting the material and context. I guess it just it what it is, depending on the person and viewpoint, and we'll all just have to see where it goes.

I could not possibly agree more. I tried to give KC a chance - I really did - but she was just terrible in the role, from start to finish. I cannot overstate how miscast I thought she was. JH, OTOH, actually seems able to interact with people and portray more than one emotion, which are not things I ever, *ever* felt were true of KC.

They are writing this whole thing as clunkily (is that a word?) as they can. Surely, they could think of a reason that doesn't sound weird/lazy/gross to give her the BC moniker, or at least make it her choice, but....nope. Evidently not. I'm going to have to say - and I totally understand that mileage varies and why it does, in this particular case - that I don't find JH to be at all like KC (whom I dislike. Intensely.), and I also don't think SA acts like his usual "I wish they would replace me with a cardboard cutout because I hate this material and scene partner" self in scenes with her. Regarding the former, all JH did was restate the talking point about the emotional connection that was used to talk the character up in the first place. It's not as though she's going around saying that GA/BC is the bestest love story evah and she can't wait to get the ball rolling with it. Back to the main discussion point: I fully agree that the conversation is between Oliver and Lance, and I 100% think it ends with Lance giving his blessing to give Dinah the BC name. It will also probably include something like, "It's what Laurel would've wanted," or "It would make Laurel proud," or . . . blah blah blah.

I think WM says pretty much whatever she wants, regardless of whether or not it's in-keeping with reality. She also couldn't say that that was all we're going to see in terms of WD flashbacks, because that would, in some respects, point to his character possibly going bye-bye . . . which, in all honesty, is something I very much hope happens. Moving on . . . I think JH came off very well in that interview. She was aware of the situation she came into, and she's trying to respect the myriad fan opinions while also trying to remain gainfully employed. I do think her answer re: Oliver was interesting, largely because it's something that's been discussed here so much. I know many/most here won't like it, but I truly do think they're going to explore that emotional connection someway, somehow, at some time. re: Human Target urging Oliver to date the reporter - if they wanted to (and if they were smart, which, well . . . ) they'd tie it all together: Prometheus is working with/has manipulated HT to work for him when it comes to ruining Oliver's life. HT comes into that piece of info about the reporter, and plants the idea in Oliver's head about dating her. Meanwhile, reporter is also working with/is being manipulated by Prometheus. I will just never, ever buy that that shot of the reporter's wrist tattoo wasn't supposed to be significant (at least at that time).

Reading the above posts, it does strike me that another huge problem this show has is that the writers have a wealth of material inherent in the characters that we see, but for a vast majority of them, they're unwilling to actually explore and capitalize on any of it. They treat most of the characters like set pieces - things to advance a plot, add to Oliver's manpain, and/or drum up momentary interest. They don't seem interested in fully fleshing them out or doing justice to any of their stories that may show up briefly before they're scuttled and forgotten. Felicity is a good example of that, in terms of the paralysis, etc. Another example is or could be Dinah (and I say this as someone who likes her): they introduce her, just give her the BC characteristics, and basically make her into paint-by-numbers superhero without fully fleshing that out (beyond the material regarding Vince, etc.). Others in this forum have offered excellent suggestions re: how she got her fighting skills, etc. - suggestions that would humanize her and make sense, but those are things in which the writers don't seem to be interested. We can also look at Susan as being a perfect example of this: we don't have any idea what her purpose is, nor do we know if she's good or bad, because they're not writing her as a character - they're writing her to advance whatever plot they pull out of . . . thin air. That's a great way to get people to not give a damn about her, or even actively loathe her (as I do), and it's also a great way to pretty much waste a large portion of an entire season on a plot that a vast majority of people don't like, don't understand, and don't have any interest in watching. They write for plot, not for people. And this is the result of that: viewers who are increasingly frustrated, perplexed, and losing hope. re: actors phoning in performances - I'll refer back to SA in particular, though I think it could be argued that at various points, some of the other actors have seemed over it, too. I actually think that he's more talented than he's generally given credit for: creating so many versions of the same character - pre-island, on the island, and post-island Oliver, etc. - versions that have clear and distinct differences, is not something that one could do without having some skill. The problem, as I see it, is that he lets his personal feelings re: the stories and even sometimes even his scene partner(s) bleed through. That's held true for most of the show's run - I'm thinking specifically about his scenes with KC, though I know some would disagree - but this season, it seems to be the rule, rather than the exception. For example, we're told that Oliver is "serious" about Susan, but we don't see that because Stephen is checked out in those scenes (which is not to say that I'd prefer to see him actually putting in the work, because the "story" itself doesn't even merit it). That is heartening in terms of seeing that he can recognize when storylines are problematic (regardless of what he may say to the contrary), but I'm less optimistic that that means anything will change in terms of the storylines getting better. It could be his way of rebelling, or he could be getting to a point where he's just tired of it all. I'd suspect that directors, especially the new ones, don't want to make waves and won't say anything as long as the material is passable. Regardless, it does make already terrible stories even worse, and it also isn't going to do him any favors when he looks to get work post-Arrow, imho.

I wouldn't be surprised if Thea turns out to be someone's target: Prometheus' because he wants to profoundly hurt Oliver, so he'd go after his sister, and/or Susan's since they've just had Thea once again voice her dislike/distrust of her, so they're still set up to be at odds in a big way. Is it a coincidence that Susan is negatively impacting the siblings' bond, which is something Prometheus would enjoy? I tend to think it's not an accident, and those two characters are somehow connected.

I know people routinely say this, and now it's my turn: I can't wait for the bts tell all book about this show. Surely, someone will write one at some point given how vocal and aggressive with their opinions so many people connected to this show are. It needs to cover everything from the disastrous (imo) KC casting, the wildly inappropriate sibling chemistry in the first season, their insistence on telling stories that don't have a single ounce of redeeming value (like the BMD catastrophe), their stubbornness when it comes to pushing characters and stories that are nearly universally abhorred, the network's terrible job at promoting the show (especially now and in the not too distant past), why it seems like some in power have decided to actively loathe Olicity, how many stories were pitched one way but were radically changed by the time they got to the screen, whatever led to Willa's drastically reduced episode count/screentime, how many decisions exactly were made from people higher up the food chain that the showrunners and producers couldn't fight, why Stephen thinks it's okay to phone in his performances when he doesn't like something, and the list goes on and on and on. I would read the hell out of that book.

^^ They're Arrow's version of the Soup Nazi, except in reverse. (Unless you look at it like "No good stories for you!") That makes sense. I think he was excited about the overall story and that's what he's continued to reference (oddly) instead of what was actually shown.

@AyChihuahua, I've noticed that that's a trait shared by a lot of the writers, producers, showrunners, and Stephen himself - stubborn to the point that it sometimes (or often) seems juvenile in nature. The more stories are bashed, the more they praise them. It's like their way of saying that they're right and the fans/viewers are wrong and just don't appreciate good stories like they do. re: Stephen's take on that (terrible) story: I wonder if maybe some material was filmed and then cut; some scenes that would've lent some kind of credence to his seeming insistence that it was a story that showed Oliver in dad-mode.