weathered1

Personally, I'm not taking issue with him toeing the company line - he's always done that, and that's what a person in his position should do. I'm only taking issue with the way he defended the storyline and addressed the way so many people view Oliver now, in that that defense (imho) didn't jibe with what's been shown onscreen since this story began and willfully ignored how we have seen things play out.

I think it's a good bet that he'll do it. It'll be interesting to see how far he'd get. I think another reason EBR was so much better at the Bring Sally Up challenge than he was is because her form was so much better, from start to finish. She had excellent control of her entire body the whole time.

First, not finding out who Vigilante is this season? Boy, they're good at follow through and just telling stories in general. In a world where down is up and left is right. re: SA . . . I just . . . wow. He so totally missed the point (probably deliberately) on why people are finding Oliver so unlikable now when he committed (admittedly) terrible acts in the past. At least when he did those things - well, other than the BMD crap - he was still varying (and arguable) degrees of sympathetic, and even if people didn't like or agree with what he did, he was still recognizable as the character of Oliver Queen. This season? Not so much. I think he understands full well that the show has, from her first episode, painted the reporter as being shady, sneaky, and underhanded, even if they haven't had her be those things directly to Oliver. The developing "relationship" has been laughable in how bare bones it is - no clear emotional connection, no chemistry, no hot sex, nothing. They've told us that it's "serious" and "all in" but they have never, ever shown that to us. So that leaves us with pod!Oliver who placed that nothing relationship with someone the audience does not like over his relationship with his own sister; his sister who, by the way, has justifiable hatred for said reporter. Then there's the fact that reporter was digging up info on him behind his back even after they slept together and had enough to expose him. Even that wasn't enough to give him pause, but again, for absolutely no reason! We haven't seen a single scene that would explain why he has this unending trust in her and finds her to be such a "good person." Then he doubles down on the stupid, selfish, hurtful behavior by pushing his ex-fiancee to help him win his current girlfriend back, without a single thought as to how that may make Felicity feel, the less than pleasant position that put her in, etc. Oliver behaves in such a totally inexplicable, self-centered, purely assy way, and SA acts as though he's aghast that people are reacting so strongly and negatively about it. Okay. Sure, Stephen. Next time you try to talk your way out of the show sucking and destroying your character, you may want to try to come up with a defense that makes sense and doesn't ignore the reality that the show has shoved in the viewers' faces. Oh, and the bit about other people keeping things from him? Nothing has stopped him from showing interest in their lives. When he can't be bothered to do that, he can't then turn around and use the fact that they're not going out of their way to confide in someone who has his head firmly implanted up his ass as justification for his own behavior. re: the cast going forward: I think Dinah is here to stay. I'd be surprised if Curtis wasn't back, though in all honesty, he's become very meh (or worse) for me. Given the awful reception WD has gotten - to the extent that WM even had to acknowledge it - I'd think he'd only be back (or a regular) if it was another mandate from on high that they couldn't get rid of him. FWIW, I'd dearly love to see WD hit the bricks, but given this show's penchant for doubling down on stories and characters people don't like, well . . .

Yep. Even supposing they do go with a "twist," look at how many episodes of character assassination it took to get there. Regardless of what any possible twist could be, it will not explain away, excuse, or justify Oliver spending so much of this season becoming increasingly and thoroughly unlikable. If they go with a twist, especially after seeing the awful feedback from pretty much everyone, it will still have been at the expense of the show's main character - the "hero" whom myriad fans now actively dislike. If a twist comes at that big a price, the entire story was never even close to being worth it, in the first place. Plus, to me, any twist would now seem like a cheap, last minute, Hail Mary, face-saving gesture because they finally realized just how spectacularly they've screwed up this season, instead of it seeming like the end result for which they'd been writing all this time.

I agree with all of the posts I've been reading. If we were supposed to buy that Oliver and whats-her-face were all twu wuv 4eva, why didn't we see anything that even remotely pointed to that? I'll take it even further: if this was supposed to be a "real relationship," why did they not learn from their past mistakes and chem test the hell out of CP and SA before they hired her?? (I will never believe they did, because there's simply no *there* there.) And beyond that, if we're supposed to be rooting for Lil' Susie, why in the name of all that's holy have they made her seem so shady and underhanded this entire time?? As it is, who buys this is a "real relationship"? Who cares at all about the world's worst reporter? When a good number of fans are actively wishing that the villain kills her, one would think that would make it crystal clear that they've done an inexcusably terrible job with this "story" and "character." The idea, the very notion that Oliver would be so torn up over her abduction that it would be akin to torture is just so . . . not supported by anything we've seen. It's like we're dealing with 2 different shows: the one the writers/producers/showrunners (and Stephen) have in their heads, and the one that viewers actually see. They're telling us that we haven't seen what we've seen, and that we haven't seen the story they've been telling. It feels like they're gaslighting us.

^ I agree with that. I think it's a mark of how far Oliver has fallen as a character (and how remarkably terrible the writing is) that Mr. I'm Going to Protect My Character has to resort to excuses that aren't justified by what's been shown. We know they've written for plot and that that's pretty much all they care about. What I find truly gobsmacking is how much they've destroyed the show's main character in order to do that - and to do that in such a way that isn't even good or remotely compelling!! It would've been different if we'd seen the things SA mentioned: Oliver being horribly upset and hurt over the end of his relationship with Felicity and hitting rock bottom emotionally. Prometheus notices this - because he sees and knows all - so he sends in Susan who pretends to be a normal, "good" person, yet her subtle (at least to Oliver) machinations separate him from his team. He feels ostracized by them, so he clings with increasing fervency to Susan, the one "normal," "good" thing he has left in his life, and things progress from there. That would've been a story; not necessarily a good one, but an actual story nonetheless. Unfortunately, what we've actually seen is stupid, character-destroying nonsense for which there cannot be any kind of actual, substantive, redemptive payoff for anyone (at least, imho).

Okay, that line from Stephen? Is so incredibly stupid, my mind refuses to even take it in. Prometheus' plan is working? Um, Prometheus isn't making Oliver act like such a dumbass, and one who is so thoroughly unlikable that he puts getting some from the reporter over and above the relationships that used to be nearest and dearest to him. That's not an evil villain's plan coming to fruition as he sits in a dark room cackling like Mr. Burns - that's Oliver being willfully stupid, selfish, and ridiculously short-sighted. SA saying that and thinking it at all fits what's been on our screens is just so much facepalm material.

I liked the ice skater's voice, too. I think she was the best of the night. One thing I can say about this season so far: the coaches really seem like they're enjoying themselves - they're joking with each other, laughing a lot, and just genuinely seem like they're having a lot of fun. This might be a mileage varies kind of thing, but that vibe had been missing for the past couple of seasons, imho.

That really does make zero sense. These things are rehearsed (unless you're Dunaway and/or Beatty and don't want to practice the walk out). At the very least, people involved with the production - like the stage manager - would be able to tell them, "Okay, these presenters are going out from this side; these are the categories they'll be presenting; these are the envelopes you'll need to have ready for them." It sounds like some people involved or in the know are trying to cast blame while others are trying to explain away some culpability. What a mess - an unprofessional, totally avoidable mess.

In terms of this casting a pall on Moonlight's moment, according to Mahershala Ali, it really did. I saw a clip of him where he was saying that he felt terrible for the LLL people, and while he was pleased that Moonlight was recognized like that, he found it impossible to take joy in the moment because of what happened. (That was the gist of his statement.) That was an extremely classy response from him, but it made me feel even worse for all involved. About Horowitz: I think it's incredibly admirable that he stepped up, took control of the situation and tried his best to fix such a huge, inexcusable mistake - a mistake not at all of his making and one that likely filled him with a mixture of disappointment, frustration, embarrassment, and anger. To refer to him as being a hero, though, seems like a bit much to me.

I agree that actual laws and procedures don't mean a thing to the show. When a mayor steps down or is booted from power in a place like NYC, I've read that the public advocate steps in. In other places, the city council president is interim mayor. In both of those instances, I think (but I'm not sure) that the city holds a special election so that the people can choose the next mayor. I don't see them actually taking the job away from Oliver, though.

I feel like that's exactly what will happen: Thea will double down on her Moira-ness, something will happen that will make her feel guilty, she'll take the blame for Oliver's failings as mayor, quit her job, and possibly/probably leave town, feeling like there isn't a place for her there anymore.

^ I agree. It shouldn't be at the expense of other characters. I'm going to guess that in this case, it may serve some plot-related purpose - something that they need to affect her and not someone like Diggle. What that could possibly be. . . I don't have the faintest idea.

^I never said that or anything close to it. I welcome debate and the exchange of idea; I always have. I was referring to one comment from someone that I thought was a little over the line, not the board, in general.

I'd speculated that Dinah was going to be part of his team. I got a little attitude/push back on that, but it made sense to me at the time, in terms of the show wanting to integrate her with the characters. If she's off by herself doing cop-related things, then she's kept apart from the main stories and I don't think they wanted that to happen. It also makes sense, story-wise, that Oliver would want someone he trusts close to him during so much chaos and upheaval. CP still filming. Sigh. This show has a real talent when it comes to hiring actors I really don't like and then dragging out their stories long after it's clear that they've failed. I'm trying to think positively that just because Shady McSnideypants is still around, that doesn't mean it's in a romantic context. The way this has gone, though, I'm losing that optimism. I'd hoped that Oliver would realize that he was essentially using her to prove something to herself and would break things off (because I do think the "relationship" isn't over yet), but I'm getting a bad feeling she's going to be the one ending things at the end of the season. I'm also envisioning the last couple of scenes of the finale being her releasing the exclusive that OQ is GA, and then we're "treated" to a flashforward that sets up next season. Again, I don't want any of that to happen. At all. But these writers have really beaten me down when it comes to trying to come up with positive speculation.

On one of the entertainment news shows, they had footage where, just before Beatty and Dunaway walk out, you can see someone just behind the stage decorations running all the way from one side to the other. The show (it might have been Extra) implied that that was directly involved somehow with the screw up.

Yep, and him pushing back so hard when it comes to Thea voicing her (very real) concerns about the reporter and then taking action against her to save him from himself is him desperately clinging to the notion that he can be "normal," too. In his mind, I think the reporter is his last chance to prove to himself that he can be both OQ and GA, and he can keep the former separate from the latter. So the push back isn't really about Susan at all, it's about him being scared that his last chance at normalcy is slipping away (or being taken from him). It still doesn't make him look any smarter, and the fact that he keeps having the same internal struggles and re-learning the same lessons would not make me look upon the writers favorably, if I still felt inclined to do so. Which I don't. At all. FWIW, if they do go that route, I can very easily see that being expressed in a conversation with Felicity, as in after the reporter officially hits the bricks, Felicity approaches him and says she's sorry about his "relationship," and he explains the above to her. That could also be when she explains that she understands now why he's kept secrets. Whether that would lead to a reconciliation, I don't know because I do think some rebuilding is required before that happens (whether the writers would agree with that is debatable), but it could at least lead to that door reopening. Would it stay open or would it fall victim to the end of the season "twists" or flashforwards or what . . . who knows.

I agree that the "all in" meant sex, as in the first time he physically moved beyond his previous relationship. I think any "all in" feelings he's supposed to have would 100% be him trying to force himself to feel something, anything for a "normal" (in terms of the life she supposedly leads), not-associated-with-his-darkness woman. I haven't seen any hint of actual feelings on her side of the equation, and I can't decide if the utter lack of anything between them, regardless of what is stated in interviews, is a fault of the writing, the acting (and SA and CP not working well together), or both. It's probably both. I said awhile back that maybe this "relationship" was being written and portrayed so terribly in order to make Oliver's next love interest - be that Felicity or anyone else - look infinitely better by comparison. I definitely think that's the way the writers would operate.

I like Gwen. I like Blake. I like Gwen & Blake. But the cutesiness and constant mentions of their relationship by them and Adam was a bit much. I really liked most of the singers tonight, especially JChosen, Felicia, and Stephanie. In terms of the latter, she really poured emotion into what is already an evocative song, which made that a truly special performance. The younger singers weren't bad at all, but I do have to say that I wasn't wowed by the one (Anatalia?) who sang "Runaway Baby." She wasn't bad, but I was surprised she got a full 4 chair turn.

I completely agree with that. He had one job: stand there and hand out the correct envelope(s) at the appropriate time(s), and his success or failure at that directly reflected upon his entire firm. The way this looks is that he thought it was more important to take and post a pic of Emma Stone on social media than to pay attention to his actual job at the exact time of the night/event when it was most important. To me, that definitely goes beyond the "everyone makes mistakes" category.

The long con is, well, a longshot, but given this show, it wouldn't be a huge surprised if they decided to play that card out of nowhere. As far as Oliver's "feelings" (good grief) for the world's worst and shadiest reporter are concerned, I wonder if it's supposed to tie into the frustration he voiced in the Bratva episode, where he was sulking because he was back to being a "thug," which could also tie into his constant juggling of being Oliver Queen and GA. If he'd been feeling frustrated about so much of his life revolving around the latter, I wonder what the odds are that the writers will say he looks at the "relationship" (which will never not deserve air quotes) with the reporter as being his way of living OQ's life instead of being mired in the violence and darkness of GA since she's not in any way tied to that (that he knows of). In other words, being with her was his attempt at normalcy, at having something/someone in his life that didn't have a thing to do with vengeance, death, and all the rest of it. Do I think that's stupid? You bet. Would I put it past this show? No. My fear about this next episode is that we find out that the reporter is at the press conference because he specifically invited her in an attempt to help her resurrect her career, and that pic of their conversation is him saying that he wants to do a sit down, exclusive interview about the impeachment . . . and possibly other big, news-making things. Sigh. I can't put into words how much I don't want those things to be the case.

If Oliver chose to sleep with her as part of some kind of long con, I'm sure the writers are counting on viewers thinking that's manly and/or heroic. Because they're dolts. Meanwhile, count me in the group who finds it be gross. There is a (recent) precedent for Oliver doing unpleasant favors for Anatoly, so it's not out of the question that he could be doing so again. If he is investigating Susan (if that's what the kids are calling it these days), then that still brings back the issue of him refusing to learn lessons re: keeping his team/friends in the dark. So if his anger at Thea was because she'd screwed up his plan, then it's his own fault because he should've told the people closest to him (who could've helped him) instead of being a secretive douche who gets pissed that the people from whom he's keeping valuable information are trying to protect him from himself and his poor judgment. I honestly do think HT will be involved in things somehow, someway before the seasons ends. Granted, the decisions these writers make are largely inexplicable, but I don't think they'd introduce a character like that for seemingly no good reason and then just drop it, particularly after he'd had experience "being" Oliver.

I love that shot of Meryl. So, so much. Her reaction and Ryan Gosling's mirth are just mesmerizing and crack me up. re: Horowitz - I do think he jumped in, grabbed the card, etc., because he wanted the humiliation to be over and for the Moonlight crew to start having their moment - the moment they deserved - as soon as possible. He was probably thinking that the production had screwed things up so spectacularly that they couldn't be relied upon to fix their mistake quickly enough, so he took it upon himself to do it.

re: the pile of envelopes: I saw another poster mention earlier in the thread that once each award was handed out, the envelope for said award should be discarded from the back-up/duplicate pile. That's a great point and I don't understand why that wasn't the case and why (I know I've already said this but it truly boggles my mind) the guy didn't *look* at the envelope before he handed it to Warren Beatty. I saw that he was apparently tweeting and posting pics from backstage. Maybe he was an unfortunate combination of being starstruck and incompetent.

^^ Yeah, I think Horowitz handled it (mostly) well, but what else was he supposed to do? It's not like he could've said, "No, the Moonlight people can't have it. You gave it to me - it's *mine.* No backsies!!"