madam magpie

I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I'm surprised by how many people thought the Jon/Dany sex scene was underwhelming. I mean...it seemed to me like the scene wasn't going for romance so much as symmetry and plot reveal in an effort to sow conflict. It also seems like, incest aside, this would be a very tricky situation for Jon/Dany and much as they're clearly into each other, they'd both also be conflicted by destiny and duty. The scene in the cave and then last week at Jon's bedside, and Dany coming to his rescue and having to leave him behind, were so much more romantic and showed pretty clearly, I thought, how they feel about each other. In other news, I was bummed to learn last week that she associates the name Dany with that creepy, molesting brother because I always call her that and think of the character that way! I'm holding out hope that she comes around eventually and sees it as an endearment instead, though on this show, she'd be more likely to start burning people alive as traitors who call her that so...

I love this post, especially the stuff about Sansa's chat with Littlefinger, and I'm reeeeeally hoping that next season, the Stark kids (Jon included) are a tight pack that trusts each other. I also hope they pull Dany into that or at least accept her on Jon's word. But! I also am hoping that it's more Dany than Jon who is concerned about their relationship. The power/succession issue will surely come up, but like you, I don't see Jon as necessarily wanting the Iron Throne. It would be a nice turn from the obvious for the incest to bother Dany, and it fits with her personality thus far: she seems to be trying to reject the insulation of her family history and do things differently than the people who ruled before her. For all her burning people alive and demanding everyone bend the knee, she has a strong belief in freedom, choice, and mercy. I agree with Tyrion that she can build a better world, so reverting to incest and insulation should be hard for her, even if the circumstances were beyond her control. I also fully expect her to fall in love with Jon (I suspect she has already) and be pregnant, so the stakes will be a lot higher. I still want Dany on the Iron Throne at the end, and I think it's possible. I also really like her and Jon together (incest aside) because Jon is one of the few men on the show who truly respects the autonomy, individuality, and value of the women he's close to: Sansa, Arya, Ygritte, and now Dany. He really treats them as equals and doesn't objectify them at all. I want that end for Dany...well, for all three of them, actually. (RIP Ygritte.)

Amen to this!

I believe she's said she makes exceptions if she believes a scene is empowering and not gratuitous (like when she walked out of the fire), but my understanding is that she keeps a no-nudity clause in her contract. A protracted, naked sex scene doesn't strike me as fitting her criteria. (I pass no negative judgment on this, BTW, and say good for her.) Maybe, but I think they're definitely setting this up to be a huge problem--practically for a variety of reasons, and emotionally for Jon and Dany. I also fully expect Dany to get pregnant. Jon's comment seemed like such obvious foreshadowing.

I love Sansa so much and am so glad to see her being smart. Very cool that she and Arya plotted together, but wonder when it happened. Does Tyrion somehow know Jon and Dany are related, or was he just concerned at the end about the messiness of a relationship between them because of their alliance? I believe that's true, yeah.

Yes, that's a lot of loss. I suspect you're right that there wasn't a lot of consideration of Charlotte; she wasn't a sestra, which surprised me. But I loved her! I also just read an interview, though, with Graeme Manson where he said he liked the Cosima/Delphine idea and that Charlotte was just "staying" with Art for a bit. So...

She also said she didn't know why that was: selfish, scared? Something else? She never said she didn't want children. Maybe she doesn't. I don't know. The reason we latched onto the idea is because it makes logical story sense. Delphine promised to love all the sisters and to protect them; that came up several times. And Charlotte spent most of this season with Cosima. I like Art a lot, but Charlotte living with him forever comes totally out of nowhere. Rachel and Cosima were the two clones Charlotte was closest too. That she ended up with neither is a weird storytelling choice. It would have been interesting to see her go with Rachel, but whew. Nutty. Plus Rachel is isolated from the group. Cosima/Delphine already have a relationship with Charlotte. It's not like they'd have picked up some random baby at the end. Of course they'd be fine as a couple with no child. But it is kind of sad that Charlotte ended up with a random family of people she met five minutes ago when she's supposedly part of this extraordinary sisterhood. If she's just staying with Art until Cosima/Delphine can save everyone and get settled, though, it's not sad.

I'd love a movie that followed Cosima and Delphine around the world as they cured the clones.

Ah, gotcha. Well, then, I think I'll believe she's just staying with Art until Delphine/Cosima can get settled...

Charlotte went to live with Art?? I totally missed that. Will have to watch it again...

Me too! I only wish we knew who was taking care of Charlotte. I'd hoped she go to live with Cosima and Delphine...

That would be weird, and yet I love it.

Except for the Stark kids and the three living Lannisters, I never know who's related to whom and how on this show. I do know that Jon and Dany have fabulous chemistry and should make out, though. ETA: I thought Sansa looked stunned by Arya, not jealous or angry.

Yes! I couldn't believe she didn't! I'm very worried that's she's getting too arrogant because I'm 100% Team Dany and want her to win. I don't need her to be knocked down a peg. But between that decision and the whole "bended knee" thing with Jon, I'm concerned. I have no ambivalence about my loyalties. I wish Jaime/Bronn had been killed and can't wait for Cersei to get hers.

Unless there's some sci-fi clone explanation in the finale, there is absolutely no reason for young Helena not to be played by Cynthia Galant. This show has spent years establishing Charlotte as the clones as a child. To introduce a brand new kid in the penultimate episode is absurd.

I saw that Graeme Manson said on Twitter that a couple of the paintings went to special people: the real Cosima has Cosima's, and John Fawcett has Helena's. So maybe they all have been claimed? Cosima Herter posted a photo of hers hanging in her house. Also, they were real paintings done by an artist named Fabrizio Sclocco.

Psst, @shapeshifter, 12 Monkeys is awesome!!

I always think that the actresses playing Sarah and Cosima have great chemistry...

Whoa boy!

Nooooooooooooo!!!

Delphine gave S a flash drive with everything she knew about Kira on it. She knew they wanted the Lin blahblah gene, but was she there when Cosima learned about the eggs?? I forget. Or maybe S didn't read everything on the drive yet?

Another great episode! I don't want Rachel to be redeemed, but it was interesting to learn her history, and I'm glad she's got some autonomy now. Whew...the eye extraction was tough to watch. PT remains an extraordinarily creepy bastard. Loved Cosima's reunion with Scott. Loved them working together again. Great to see Art. Charlotte drinking tea and being proud of her boating experience was adorable. I love Charlotte and have thought for awhile that Delphine/Cosima will take her in the end. I'll be disappointed if that doesn't happen, actually. I don't understand the fakey promo I've been seeing that says next week's ep is too intense for a preview. I watch on Amazon and had a real preview for next week.

Yes, exactly. Also, just a week or two ago, Cosima also said Aisha's tumor was better. So why did she die just a day or so later?? I love this show, but it's always really hard for me to tell how much time has passed.

Loved this episode! Krystal has absolutely become my favorite clone. Tom Cullen was a fun surprise! I like Bree and Scotty! Did PT really kill Aisha, or did Coady do it somehow? Why would PT kill Aisha? Stupid Mud. I enjoy Kira's hustling. Very glad Cosima and Charlotte got away. Happy that Mrs. S told Sarah about Delphine. Bummed about Susan. Hope Ira makes it. And when Charlotte goes to live with Cosima and Delphine at the end of the series (which she better do!), I hope the first thing they do is sign her up for swim class at the Y.

I really liked the stuff with Cosima and Delphine. I noticed a long time ago that the things Delphine does only look shady if you think she's secretly on the Neolution side. If you believe she's telling the truth about being on Cosima's side, everything she does looks helpful. Of course she can't tell Cosima everything; that's how spying works. The fewer people involved, the more the chance of success. Delphine should go work for the CIA next. I loved how Cosima thought she was catching Delphine in a lie about having just arrived when she said she'd seen Delphine go into the big house. Delphine was like, "Yeah, sure, I stopped by to deliver the samples" and shrugged it off. Delphine's been playing the long game, and is a much better spy than Cosima, who...whew...has zero chill or stealth skills. Why does she keep giving away everything?? Good lord. I liked that Delphine basically revealed she was working with Mrs. S via Felix and that she and Cosima agreed about how to move forward. Turning over some of her choices to Delphine shows a lot of trust on Cosima's part. Finally! And I liked that it was communicated in a very natural (and romantic) way, as opposed to the cliched "are you sure" line I see so often. I thought Delphine reminding Cosima of who she really is in the flashback was lovely. Though I do worry Delphine will blow all her spying groundwork when she finds out Cosima has been locked up in the basement. I doubt that gels with her plan. I wonder who will be the one to save Cosima... PT is one creepy bastard. This show does a great job of articulating the subtle rapey vibe women deal with constantly in all walks of life. I liked all the stuff with Sarah/Kira too. Looking forward to Krystal next week!