madam magpie

I hope not. I mean, the queen can't control the individual behavior of every soldier, but I'd hope she'd try to eradicate that part of the Dothraki culture. I have to say, these insights don't inspire me to want to read the books... ? That's more like it!

Ah, I see. I'm with @GraceK. I like the show Tyrion a lot better!

I find it impossible to believe anyone could get Dany to help them rape anyone, even Cersei. There's no way Dany would allow that. Is that really in the book or an exaggeration?? (I haven't read the books either.) Given what we've seen on the show, I'd say Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, and Arya are all heroic. They're all very, very flawed, but they're doing the best they can to improve the world around them and help people who are less powerful than they are. I'd consider them moral. There are several heroic minor characters too, like Brienne, Jorah, and Sam.

I think it was obvious Sansa was young, scared, and afraid she was about to be raped. Tyrion isn't heroic in that moment because he doesn't have sex with someone who's not into him. I don't admire him for that. He's heroic because, unlike many of the people in power in this world, he sees Sansa for what she is: young, abused, scared, powerless, etc. Even if she's quiet about it. And he refuses to accept the demands of the power structure. The scale is smaller, of course, but he gives Sansa a moment of freedom there the same way Dany has been freeing people. Storywise, it speaks to the better world they're both trying to create.

I'm kind of looking forward to that, actually! Didn't they part on good terms? (I mean...life was crap for both of them, but I don't think that was because of each other, right?) I'd think Sansa would hold no animosity for Tyrion and would probably respect and admire him for how he treated her. I've said this before and will say it again: What's different is the rigidity of the power structure, NOT how people feel. Women who are raped in societies that are ok with it aren't magically ok with being raped. They have no recourse or support. It's the same with slavery.

That's fair! A friend of mine said that as soon as he saw Bran at the table, he knew Sansa was not going after Arya. But I still think it matters when and how that happened because how close Sansa/Arya came to killing each other does mean something important for both characters.

They definitely needed something. I think, though, that the show wanted to fool the audience as much as Littlefinger. And that's ok...it is fiction, after all. Surprises and misdirection are good. Where they blew it was in the set-up. Knowing now that the Starks were in it together, we should be able to rewatch the scenes leading up to the climax and see it coming. It's fine to misdirect early on as long as you also plant real clues to the truth. Because they didn't, we have no way of knowing what really happened, when Sansa/Arya got on the same page, how Bran got involved, etc. Deleted scenes don't mean much to me because they aren't really part of the story. It matters to the plot and the girls' characters whether they were really on the verge of killing each other, but I have no idea if they were or not. ETA: The knife is an interesting clue. Someone mentioned that somewhere; I didn't notice myself. The fact that the last thing we saw was Arya give it to Sansa and then in the trial/execution scene Arya has it back does tell us that something transpired between them. But I think that's WAY too subtle and much too easily missed. And it still doesn't explain who was playing whom when.

Good point...I don't know. I think all the dating rumors started with that Rolling Stone article several years ago where the photographer told Kit to kiss Emilia? Something like that? Because, yeah. It's not like they'd even been onscreen together before this season, had they? Though I'm sure they'd met at table reads, events, etc.

Agreed. Consent under duress isn't actually consent, and duress can take many forms.

From what I've read, according to Kit and Emilia, they've never dated.

Great point. What did she say? "Dragons can't be chained"...or something similar. If she's really going to set everyone free and she's going to live up to "breaker of chains," she'll eventually have to let the dragons go. She'll also eventually have to be faced with actually allowing someone committed to her the choice to leave. Maybe it'll just be the dragons, but I'm starting to think it might be Jon too. What Missendei said about how if she wanted to go, Dany would wish her well, is that true? I believe it is, actually. I don't think Dany wants loyalty out of fear, and she doesn't want to rule with a fist. She wants respect and for people to choose her freely. But I don't know if we've ever actually seen that tested, have we? ETA: I do think she'll die. I don't think the dragons will, though I'm not sure why. Maybe just because it would be hard to top the drama of Viserion. But I'm fairly convinced Dany won't ever sit on the Iron Throne.

I get what you're saying, but in addition to being a magical fantasy, this also a story about power: who has it, who wants it, and who's trying to get it. There's no way to separate this story from politics, especially not its own.

I laid it out above already. Others have added to it.

Dany is a monarch. The First Amendment was written for a (basically, but not totally) democracy. That said, if you think the US govt is going to stand for insurrection, especially when it comes to prisoners of war, based on the First Amendment, I'd suggest you read up a bit on the prison at Guantanamo Bay. So it's not that she doesn't have a plan; it's that you don't like her plan? That's fair. I don't mind her plan given the circumstances of the world she lives in. Is she trying to establish a democracy? Of course not. Would that be even better than Dany's form of better? Probably, though I suppose Cersei could always be legitimately elected by a flawed electoral system and then they'd be in real trouble.

This is how all political leaders are. Some are more diplomatic than others, but "support my vision or get out" is how ALL governments are run. It sounds like what you're saying is that because Dany hasn't laid out a plan for every battle, she has no plan. Obviously, I don't agree with that.

Fair enough. Maybe I should have said "great" instead of "perfect"... I do think she's much, much better. Perfect? Absolutely not. Great? How can we possibly know that yet? She hasn't even won! I do think Dany has the potential to be a great leader. She's smart, decisive, charming, merciful, strong, and willing to admit what she doesn't know. She asks for help and advice. And like ALL great leaders she has an ego that fills the room, but is (mostly) tempered by compassion. She's a monarch, though. Can a monarch really be considered "great" by modern standards? I don't know. But she definitely has the potential for it.

Yes!! This scene really was fantastically done. It's interesting, I watched a "behind the scenes" video last night about filming the summit at the Dragon Pit and how important it was, etc. And it was. But the Littlefinger smack-down and the Tyrion/Cersei conversation in this episode were so much more sublime, I thought! Those two and the exchange when Jon/Dany meet are probably my favorite scenes of this season. I did like all the dragon battles/rescues too, but those were more visually spectacular.

It's not at all. The original post said nothing about vision and implementation. The critique was that defending Dany by saying others are bad is ineffective because she's supposed to be better. I still say, "Better than what? What would constitute 'better'? Does she need 'perfection' to be a better leader? And by whose moral code is 'better/perfection' defined?" I also totally disagree that she lacks vision or a plan. She wants to unite the seven kingdoms under one monarch and restore the peace and prosperity she feels her ruling family provided before. She basically said as much to Jon when she met him. She also wants to create a different and more merciful world order that includes more freedom of thought and movement (so long as you recognize her authority, of course). She's marched through multiple cities implementing this vision since she got her first army, and her plan/vision/rule has certainly improved the lives of the Unsullied and the various lower classes she's freed. She hasn't fully succeeded in her plan, she's definitely still learning how to be the leader she wants to be, and the White Walkers are a huge obstacle, but what she's trying to do has always been clear.

Wait...so Dany can't just be "better," she has to be perfect? And the judgment of that leadership perfection is linked to whose moral code: mine, yours, Tyrion's, hers?

I suspect it's to shame them no matter where they go.

@stillshimpy Yeah, I pretty much agree about Jon and Dany, though I can't help wondering if ultimately they will forge ahead together. They are, hands down, the best and strongest alliance, and they need (and want, obviously) each other. Who even needs to know the real story? It's probably wishful thinking, though, and I've been worried Dany will die and Jon end up taking it all for many seasons now...mainly because she can't actually just march to victory from beginning to end, can she?? Maybe she'll die in childbirth after heroically defeating the Night King atop Drogon and sacrificing Viseryon for the greater good. Maybe it'll be after Jon forsakes the Iron Throne and reasserts his pledge that she's his queen. Then he'll grudgingly step up to ensure that their baby grows up to rule everything. That would be typically overwrought and befitting a show that won't let ANYONE have ANY peace. I don't have any problem with her methods of rule, though, which is a little weird because in real life I'm a huge ACLU supporter who is adamantly opposed to capital punishment, mass incarceration, and most war. But I feel like this world is in desperate need of tough, benevolent control. These people are mostly nuts with little sense of mercy. They don't believe in democracy. The only people who've shown any real commitment to freedom are Dany herself, Jon, and Tyrion somewhat. Do any of them, Dany included, believe in equality of race and class?? Dad Tarly was awful, wasn't he? Or do I remember wrong? Sure, Dickon seemed nice enough, but he'd have killed Dany where she stood if he'd had the chance. That's what his army was there to do. War is hell as they say, and if you're too dumb to bend the knee after you've lost and the lady with the frakkin dragons tells you to so you can live, well then...

Ah, gotcha! I don't think she needs another Targaryen to get pregnant because she was pregnant by Drogo. And wouldn't her baby have presumably been fine if that witch hadn't gotten involved? And Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna with no trouble. As for the dragons, I do think Drogon's reaction to Jon was both a clue to Jon's parentage and an event that attracted Dany to him, even if she didn't know the backstory. I'm not sure you "need" incest for that, but...it can't hurt? Amen to that!

It's not really any different from inbreeding royals throughout history, and the benefits model those that once existed in our world. They did it to preserve bloodlines, as a means of isolation and insulation. I'm holding out hope that it's Dany who will be bothered most by this reveal because she does seem to recognize that many old ways of doing things need to change (e.g., slavery) and she's not isolated or insulated. She does buy into ruling by birthright, though, so who knows. For what it's worth, and even though it's kind of icky, I don't actually care about the incest morally; these are consenting adults who had no idea they were related. To me, it's a sad wrench to throw at them. But given the types of people they are, I imagine it will bother them both for a variety of reasons. I don't see Dany as mad at all either. She can be ruthless, like you say, but she's always totally in control. She knows what she's doing and does it with a lot of thought and calculation. I think Littlefinger wanted to isolate Sansa and make her dependent on him. Her having close family confidants threatened that.

Ohhhhhh Hot Jorah, as he is known in my circle, is definitely the one I think Dany has the best chemistry with. But he's not her equal, not in her eyes and not in his own. She's been sold, traded, manipulated, and hunted, and then she made some impressive power grabs to get herself out of that. What I like most about Jon is how he values the women he's close to and their autonomy without any paternalistic reverence. Jorah worships her, but Jon respects her. I'd prefer that kind of partner for Dany...and Sansa. Hot Jorah can save himself for me instead. I think we can judge; people aren't so different. What's different in the GoT world is the rigidity of the power structure, not how people would feel.

I agree with all of this. I'll freely admit that Dany (and Sansa) is my favorite, so I pay a lot of attention to her. And I definitely think her feelings for Jon are a game changer for her, and a huge surprise, which make the reveal of their actual relationship in the moment this is all coming together for her more tragic. She's fallen hard for him for all the reasons you mention, and I expect her to get pregnant. Not to mention the whole "the Iron Throne isn't technically her birthright anymore" thing. I'm expecting a lot of emotional struggle for her next season, and I think that's primarily what this scene was meant to set up. Kit Harrington's ass and Emilia looking lovely are very nice as well. ?