madam magpie

Wasn't the thinking that it would make a better impression if Dany arrived with Jon as a show of solidarity, rather than on a dragon as a show of strength? She'd be more likely to be accepted. It was diplomacy. I think she/Jon were right, but yeah...it was also pretty clear that she wanted the time with him.

I don't mind if the Northerners are initially skeptical of Dany or if Sansa is initially annoyed with Jon. To them, Dany is an outsider, and without the benefit of watching the months Jon/Dany spent getting to know each other, I can see why they'd be wary. However! It should become obvious very quickly who/what Dany is. She handed over all the dragonglass, requiring nothing in return. She personally came to the rescue of Jon and co. beyond the wall at great cost to herself. She attended the parley with Cersei as Jon's clear ally. She sat outside King's Landing so as not to slaughter people. She launched an abolition campaign across Essos and put together a volunteer army. Her repuation and actions should speak for themselves, and Jon's recommendation should seal the deal. Yes, some Northern lords will probably be sexist assholes who write off her accomplishments and insist that Jon is blind and vouching for her just because they're sleeping together. Hopefully the dragons and armies will shut those guys up. But people like Sansa and Lyanna Mormont (and Sam and Arya) should come around quickly.

For sure. I just don't believe they'll both live to see it. This would be great, though!

I do think Dany will have a moment of suspicion about it all. Why is this just coming out now? Especially if she's put herself in a vulnerable position strategically because she's fallen for Jon and trusts him. That suspicion can easily lead to more suspicion about his claim to the throne. She also may doubt herself since it's no longer her birthright, a belief that has informed all of her decisions thus far. I think it's possible she won't be thrilled that they're related. She may not be icked out by it, but her having once believed she might marry her brother doesn't sway me. Her brother was a creepy abuser who sold her to a violent stranger and threatened to let all the Dothraki rape her. He himself molested and hit her, and she was initially cowed by him. It wasn't until this season that I became sure Dany herself was fully aware of how she was treated by Viserys and Drogo. She knows and owns what they did to her, and even if her feelings are complicated by the fact that they were also her protectors, she's not blind about either of them. So the fact that at one time she expected to marry her brother doesn't seem like a reason she won't be disconcerted by the news that she's unwittingly sleeping with her nephew. That said, I fully expect her to get over it. I can't imagine Jon won't feel betrayed. I expect him to get over that too, but it would be so strange for it never to come up.

I think it's less incest that will be the problem for the characters and more the flip of the power dynamic and the mistrust that brings on multiple sides. I wonder if Dany will feel ambushed if she learns this info at Winterfell. She might also feel like a relationship with Jon is a throwback to the Targaryen crazy. And she'll likely worry that he plans to usurp her. Jon will probably feel betrayed by Ned and unsure about his place at Winterfell and society at large. He is who he is and won't suddenly feel like Aegon Targaryen when he's always been Jon Snow. I expect that initially they'll both look at each other differently. But I don't expect the story to end that way. As for the audience, I don't know. Jon and Dany have no idea they're related. They weren't children together. They don't share formative memories or experiences. They never meant anything at all to each other before they were allies and lovers. That's they only way they know each other. Incest is super taboo in our society, but why? Is it really only DNA? Passing on awful diseases and such is a problem, but even those diseases aren't caused by incest. They're just more likely to manifest in limited genetic pools. Or is it because we understand that adding a sexual component to those formative relationships is psychologically damaging? I find myself not caring at all that they're related except that it's tragic for the characters. I can't be the only one.

The early seasons were tough to take, that's for sure. But I'm rewatching from the beginning because I can't remember anything, and I have to say...knowing that we'll reach a point where all of the women I like so much (and Jon and even Cersei) will finally reach positions of power makes the beginning more tolerable. I still skip all the Sansa parts, though, and Dany's rape in the first episode. It's all totally believable given how women have been treated throughout history, but I don't need to look at it again.

They can. It just seems unlikely.

Not to mention that she just handed over the dragonglass. Like...what more do these people want from her??

Yes to the first bit; I think not necessarily to the second. Conceivably the brunette could pass on only the blond gene forever. It's not like you run out. Statistically, it's unlikely, however. All a dark-haired Jon Snow means is that his mother gave him a dark-haired gene. Cersei/Jamie are both blond (ish), so neither has a dark-haired gene to pass on...I think. (If I'm remembering high school biology right, blond hair and blue eyes are recessive. Dark hair and brown eyes are dominant.) It would definitely be odd that only Robert's "legitimate" kids were blond and fair.

Absolutely true. That would be pretty easy and cliched, but it's a definite possibility. A lot of the action is a misdirect until we get to the end. Ned, Rob, Catelyn, etc. weren't who this story is about. It's not really about the Starks at all, though some Starks do play a very important role. In reality, they were all just bit players in a larger narrative. So on some level, we don't know WHO this is really about. But I think we do know what it's about: power. There are a lot of ways to mend a kingdom. You don't need the leads to end up on the throne together. It depends entirely on what GRRM wants this story to say. One of the things I like is that I'm not entirely sure what the story means for me to think, and I don't think we'll really know until it's over and can look at it as a whole.

I don't think that's true here. It's definitely not inherently true. The protagonist is the character whose story all the other characters' serve and affect and whose evolution is wrapped up in the larger theme of the story. In an epic like this, it's certainly possible to have two protagonists...even more. That's what's happened so far. Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Cersei have all been protagonists of their own sections throughout the series. Now that they're coming together, those stories have merged and it's unclear what single character is the whole series' protagonist, though it definitely looks like it's coming down to Dany and Jon. That has nothing to do with who's important. Lots of characters can be crucially important to the story and theme. That doesn't make them the protagonist. The battle with the NK is a huge part of the story, but it's an event and the primary conflict, not the theme. The theme is power, and it's wrapped up in Dany. Until the reveal of his parentage, Jon's evolution hasn't been connected to that much at all. Now it is and the protagonist could shift, but that hasn't happened yet. It usually doesn't. The only reason I think the shift could happen is that GRRM has already set the precedent that he's willing to do it. It seems unlikely and much harder to do now that we're so far into the story, but it's possible. He clearly likes to play with plot structure.

I get it...I really do. And with all the talk flying around about GRRM being a misogynist, I do worry about how this story will end up. But Jon being a foil for Dany inherently makes him secondary. (If he actually is a foil. We probably won't know until the very end.) Right now, all we know is that he's disrupted her march to the Iron Throne. That's happened before, though, with other, much less significant events, and disruption is essential to the hero's story. To prove her character and worth within the narrative and to the audience, Dany has to be constantly confronted with problems and choices, make choices, fail, succeed, re-evaluate, etc. Right now, Jon is just another super-important choice. What the consequences of that choice are, we don't know yet. But I don't think the NK is just his story. To rule and to win and to unite the kingdoms, Dany has to defeat him. She just didn't know that before. Also, we don't actually know yet what Dany's destiny is. She thinks it's to sit on the throne. She's been telling us that since the beginning. But we've already gotten multiple clues that her purpose is a lot more than that. The throne represents an archaic system that she's come to want to change, even as she continues to keep her focus on it. I'm hoping that becomes a conflict for her down the line. And if it does, this "the throne is my destiny" mantra will have all been another fantastic misdirect. To believe that Dany's destiny is the throne, you have to trust her as a reliable narrator. I'm not sure I do completely. For example, I don't believe she should rule because she was born into a particular family, even though she's been telling us that's why it's her right from the start. I'm Team Dany because her character has the makings of a powerful and compassionate leader. If Jon is the one to teach her that, it doesn't turn him into the protagonist. That said, yes, if she dies only to birth a male heir, I will be pretty disappointed. Because of how this has all been set up thus far, I don't think that singular result is where we're going. But writers are unpredictable and misogyny is rampant. So I really do understand your concern.

Assuming those of us who think Dany will die so Jon can rise to power are right, this looks sort of true. BUT! I think you can also have a story about two main characters where one of them dies in the end, and I don't see Dany's role being as narrow as an endgame love interest. So far, I think this story is more Dany's than Jon's, and one could argue that his entire story until now has served hers. Plus, if, say, Dany dies and Jon takes the throne to serve her vision, allow their kid to fulfill the prophecy, and ultimately have the child rise to power, GoT is still her story, even if she's not the one left standing in the end. It also opens the door to the baby's story... I'm totally with you on internalized misogyny. It's EVERYWHERE. But I think it's too early to say that Dany is another plot structure trick and actually a secondary character meant to serve the protagonist Jon. Right now, she looks like the protagonist to me. I will concede that the staging of the sex scene where Jon ends up on top doesn't bode well symbolically for Dany to be the one with the power. But I'm not willing to write her off as a tool for Jon just yet. Right now, she's got way too much power within the narrative, and everything Jon has done thus far has led him to crash into her plotline and disrupt it like a foil. She didn't crash into his.

See...it's that he's already died once that makes me think it won't be him. Where's the drama in that? We've seen it already. Who cares? But if Dany dies? Whew! We've just watched eight seasons of the hero marching forward with laser focus, freeing slaves, raising armies, suffering horribly, learning, falling in love, growing into her own ego, etc. only to be cut down right before victory. Jon is a reluctant, everyman hero. He doesn't want the throne or the glory. Those guys often win in literature. Dany is a tragic hero. Those rarely win. And this show has all the elements of a tragedy.

This is absolutely how that scene came across to me.

I feel like Dany declaring her intentions at the start of the series and marching to ultimate victory in the end is much, much too easy. (Then again, writers can be lazy and often write themselves into plot corners they can't get out of.) The story has already flipped plot structure once by killing the guy who looked like the protagonist at the end of season one. But that was a dramatic choice. Having your declared queen fight some people and then win is like...zzzzzzzz...from a writing standpoint. I've thought Dany would die in the end for a long time, but when she gave that speech to Jon when she met him where she said she was born to sit on the Iron Throne and then spit out, "and I will," I was like, "ohhhhhhh Dany, no, you won't." As for the baby, the foreshadowing is so obvious. If there's no baby, that will also be a letdown and a violation of the rules of storytelling. Good writers don't foreshadow something that important that clearly and then drop it. How it all plays out exactly over six episodes, I have no idea. But listen, if I'm wrong and she lives and wins and hooks up with Jon to free slaves, unite kingdoms, and bring prosperity, I'll be perfectly happy. I'll call George R. R. Martin a lazy, soapy type, but I'll be thrilled.

For me, it's the only way to reconcile two things: she will die, and she and Jon will have a baby. Personally, I'd rather she die in battle, but she can't do that if she hasn't had the baby... Havent years passed on the show already? Wasn't Jon at Dragonstone for a few months? I just always assume a lot of time has passed.

I agree with the last bit, but don't see how her going North alone to save multiple people while ultimately leaving behind the guy she's actually into is an example of this. It looked pretty selfless to me. She was willing to let him die to save everyone else, including all the people in the kingdom looking to her as their leader. On the other hand, much as I think she/Jon were right about the fact that it would look better for them to arrive at Winterfell together, rather than her atop a dragon, I'd say that was her more selfish choice. She wanted the time on the boat with him; the war could wait a little bit.

Ohhhhhh, I think you're right about what kind of person she is, and I wish this would happen! But I don't think there's any way Dany ever sits on the Iron Throne. I'll be (very happily!) shocked if she wins, but I've been expecting her to die at the end for a few seasons now. After her (awesome, badass, fantastic!) speech when she met Jon, I felt REALLY sure, and now that we know she's not even the rightful heir, I feel really, really sure. I just can't believe this entire story will be her marching to victory from beginning to end. I expect her to die (maybe in childbirth, maybe in battle), for Jon to step up after initially renouncing the throne, and for their kid to be the monarch that brings a promise of a better future. (This as-yet imaginary baby better be a girl or else!) Always the right decision.

I disagree. Not about her feelings for Jon; she's very obviously in love with him. But I think she'd have gone even if he hadn't been with them. Sure, her reactions were different. But her feelings for them all are different too. I don't think that her reacting differently to different men changes anything. Plus, when it came down to it, she made another excellent and extraordinarily difficult strategic decision and left Jon behind. She was clearly gutted by that, but she assessed the danger and knew it had to be done, despite how she felt about him. She got Jorah out, though...

Yes! I'll say, too, one of the things I like best about her as a leader is that she's single-minded when it comes to the long game, but she recognizes the importance of the short games too. Those events you mention plus being willing to join Jon to fight the Night King are diversions from her path, but she's smart and strategic enough to see their value. She really does listen. She's not a tyrant at all.

Ha! That's great!! And not only did Dany not hesitate, she went alone, risking no one else but herself and the dragons. Against advice. And she suffered a huge loss. I think it was incredibly brave as well as an enormous risk because Tyrion was right. If she'd died, they were done. But great leaders can't just be figureheads and they can't just follow other people's advice. It's important to know what you don't know and to ask for help, but you also have to believe in your own abilities. Dany clearly knows all of that and is willing to follow through.

I think her feelings for him were part of it absolutely, but definitely not all of it. Jorah was there too, don't forget. And Dany has been losing. Sitting around at her castle while one of her most important advisors (whom she clearly loves and respects) and the guy who was quickly becoming another of her most important advisors (AND whom she'd fallen in love with AND who was the leader of her most crucial alliance) are killed when she knows she could do something to save them has never been Dany's style. Plus, like the previous poster mentioned, her riding in with the dragons showed everyone that she wasn't willing to just send people in to fight for her; she'd protect and fight with them too. Their lives are as valuable as her own. I think that decision was huge for her character and spoke volumes to the kind of leader she aims to be.

The first season was also my least favorite, so...that's probably an accurate observation. I actually think this season is my favorite of them all so far. I've really liked the pacing, though I do think they've gone too quickly a handful of times. (This Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger thing needed a bit more time.) But I'm currently rewatching so that could change. I work in publishing and read all day, which is why I prefer audio books for fun. I just can't read anymore when I get home. It is true, though, that reading names often makes it easier to retain them, but I also read Lord of the Rings years ago and could not for the life of me keep track of who was who, so...

Sure, but if she's castrating rapists, she's already trying to change the culture. Like I said, no queen (or commander-in-chief or secretary of defense or even general, etc.) can control the behavior of every single soldier. What the people in power can do is set the rules, boundaries, and tone, and impose consequences for violating the rules. Sounds like that's what she's doing...and it's exactly what I'd expect her to do given how her character has been portrayed. The main reason I don't read the books, honestly, is that they're so detailed and have so many characters. I can barely (and even not always then) keep the show straight. I mostly listen to books on Audible and I know there's NO WAY I'd be able to remember what's going on. But I am interested in how the books progress and how the detail in them can be used to better understand the story being told on the show.