Katherine

I don't think having a love interest makes a character weak by any means, but I would find it refreshing if more female characters ended up happily single. I would also like to see more shows focus on the family relationships and friendships, rather than romantic relationships. That being said, I absolutely detest the Swan Queen friendship. And I adore Captain Swan and probably would quit the show if it weren't for them. Go figure.

I agree that the Camelot arc was poorly planned out. Dropping the characters without any kind of resolution or mention just isn't good writing. I mean, I'm glad they focused on Emma and Hook in the finale, and I definitely prefer short-changing the Camelot arc to short-changing the main arc, but the fact that they always end up short-changing someone is a problem. Maybe they can somehow work the cut scenes into next season? This kind of reminds me of how they dropped the character of Will. That being said, I do think Amy Manson is handling it poorly. She has a right to be annoyed, but it's probably not a good idea to voice that annoyance in a public forum, particularly since Once really did give her a good opportunity this season.

Well sure, but enabling the Dark Ones to have the ability to send them to hell is just as bad as him actively trying to send them to hell, IMO. And I agree that not caring about collateral damage as long as he gets his revenge is in-character for Hook, but I think this goes beyond collateral damage. Letting Emma's family die is just as bad as if he were to kill Emma herself, and while Hook has always been motivated by revenge, he's also always been just as motivated (or even more motivated) by love. So this seemed out of character to me. And I'm not buying the excuse of the darkness amplifying his villainy, because Rumple is pretty much the worst Dark One ever, and I don't think he would have been willing to completely destroy Bae. I love Hook and this isn't enough to ruin the character for me, but I am disappointed.

Sigh. Since some people blame Milah's murder on Milah, I guess I shouldn't be surprised :/. This show brings out some very interesting perspectives!

I'm still sad that the theories about Merlin's prophecy actually referring to Hook and not Arthur didn't end up coming true! Seriously, though. I don't need to Hook to be a secret king. I don't need him to be a completely harmless Dread Pirate Roberts-type. But I'm still having a little trouble with arguably the most loyal character in the series suddenly trying to send his girlfriend's entire family (including her child) to hell just because he's mad at her. Even Rumple would have never done anything like that to Belle. Too far, writers.

I wouldn't put anything past these writers, but I still don't really think they would make Belle end up with Rumple after everything he's pulled. Before tonight, they could hand wave all his evil deeds as him just being controlled by the darkness. This time he actively chose the darkness himself (and not in the same way as the first time, where he was trying to protect his son). He's proven that even as a normal human who isn't under the influence of the darkness, he'll still choose power above anything else. And honestly, I kind of respect that the writers chose to go that route. My preferred ending for Rumple would've been him either getting a second chance with Bae, or him sacrificing himself for Bae. But since both those options went out the window a long time ago, I just want him to go out in a blaze of evil glory. I was never sold on Rumbelle, but at this point, if Belle were to take him back after everything he's done, it would become one of my most hated TV relationships.

I didn't get the impression that the kiss before Hook died was a TLK. I feel like if it were, it would've been highlighted as such. I mean, as fans we can interpret it however we want; I just don't think that's what the writers were going for. But I much prefer the theories created on these boards to the actual writing of the show, so I'll go with it.

I do wonder if Robert Carlyle will stick around beyond season 5. I don't know of any reasons he wouldn't, but this arc also seems like a good chance to finally kill the character, either in some kind of sacrificial way (maybe something to do with Bae in the underworld?) or by making him the ultimate big bad who needs to be defeated once and for all. I know these writers are fans of "redeeming" the unredeemable, but I really get the impression that they don't have any intention of giving Rumple a happily ever after with Belle.

When Snow gave half her heart to David, didn't she put it in his already dead body? Couldn't Emma have just done that? Why does she need to go all the way to the Underworld? I guess it's a little different since Killian's heart wasn't crushed. And also because of Reasons.

When Emma and Hook kissed before the sacrifice, in theory shouldn't that have been enough to get rid of the darkness? The fact that Emma is planning on sharing a heart with him means she sees him as her true love, no? And both of them wanted to be rid of the darkness at that point, so it's not like one of them was holding back. I mean, I can fanwank reasons, but I wish the writers would give us something, other than the obvious "we wanted to take the show to the underworld and needed an excuse". They could have just made them not kiss.

Canada for the win? Well I hated that the writers decided to make Hook evil in the first place. And I hated that they decided a last-minute turn around was enough to make him a hero. But thanks to the last line of the episode, all is forgiven. Can't wait till 5B.

Will we see young Liam Jones? Yes. Daddy Jones: why is he alive for so long? He isn't. Will Hook kill his father in the flashback? Yes, but it won't be real. Regina/Hook flashback: real or not real? Not real. I'm torn about this, but the only reason I'm leaning to not real is because there are just too many characters who aren't the age they should be. How will the climax play out? Hook sacrifices himself. Zelena--dead or no? Dead. The Nevengers go to the UW on purpose to save Hook or becasue they have been Marked? On purpose. What happens to Excalibur? No idea. Maybe it disappears once the darkness is destroyed by Hook's sacrifice. I'm not actually sure Hook is going to sacrifice himself, but I decided to try for some optimism. There's still a tiny part of me hoping for the long con theory, even though it's looking pretty much impossible at this point.

This episode made me sad. I really hope Hook has a secret plan to snuff out the darkness instead of the light. When David said something about hoping that Emma's faith in Hook wasn't misplaced, I figured it was building up a big moment where Hook would prove Emma right. I guess that could still happen, but it's not looking good. I think it's more likely that his plan is to snuff out the light but he changes his mind at the last minute. So essentially he would just be cleaning up his own mess, and that's not enough for me.

It's true that a lot of fans might use social issues to try to get their way. I'm just saying that sometimes their point is legitimate and needs to be made, regardless of the motives behind it. I'm not trying to argue that representation on a TV show is more important than real world issues, but it does matter to a lot of people, and I don't want to discount their opinions just because I don't happen to experience the same problem. The thing is, media does matter. What we see in TV shows, movies, the news...it has an impact on all of us. And it also reflects real life. So the fact that there is a lack of minority representation in the media (not just OUAT; it's a problem everywhere) reflects real problems facing minority groups. I certainly don't want to start a debate; I'm just saying that I'm not part of a minority group so I don't know what it's like not to be represented, but I can't imagine it's a good feeling. I think it's great that people are trying to raise awareness. Even if their true motives are just to get Regina more screen time, the movement itself might have a positive effect. And I say this as someone who detests Regina and would be happy never to see her onscreen again. Some things are bigger than ships and my own personal Regina hate. ETA: I agree that the victim/villain distinction is impossible to avoid on this show. Every new character will typically be one or the other. I just don't think that's really the point here. The point, IMO, is that we need MORE minority characters--ones who get lots of focus and more POV.

Regardless of whether some of these fans have an ulterior agenda, I think they make a good point. The problem isn't solely the fact that minority characters are being killed off. The problem is that there aren't enough minority characters to begin with, and the ones who do exist have had disproportionately crappy treatment. Representation is important. I think it's easy for some of us to take it for granted, because we ARE being represented. I can turn on pretty much any channel and see someone of the same race as me, the same hair color, the same age, etc. For a lot of minority status individuals, that isn't the case. They have a right to be upset. Even if for some fans, this protest has more to do with screen time for a certain favorite character than it does with concerns about representation, I don't feel like it's my place to question their motives. The fact is that lack of representation is a very real problem, and the more attention that is brought to it, the better, IMO.

Liam?

I'm actually really excited about the confirmation that it's a Save Hook mission. I usually try to lower my expectations for this show, but for once I'm going to let myself get excited. IMO, these underworld spoilers are some of the more promising ones we've gotten in a long time. I know the 100th episode obviously isn't going to be ALL about Captain Swan, and there's a good chance I'll end up disappointed, but hey, that's nothing new. And I'm usually skeptical about a possible CS TLK, but is there any chance at all the 100th episode will mark Emma Swan finally officially finding true (romantic) love? I know, I know, it's a longshot. And I know there are a lot of people who find TLK overdone on this show, but I for one want to see it. I'm normally not a big fan of TV romance, but this is one time I really need the payoff!

I'm probably in the minority here but I really like the idea of everyone going to the underworld, especially if it's to rescue Hook. The Neverland arc was one of my favorites, so I'm hoping another rescue mission will give us lots of focus on the core characters and their dynamics, as well as lots of Captain Swan goodness. I also really like the idea of running into characters like Cora there. I know there are a thousand ways the writers could screw this up, but for now I'm cautiously optimistic.

Still holding out hope for background info on Sirius and his family!

Yesterday on Twitter I made the mistake of referring to Regina as a rapist and murderer, and questioning why so many fans root for her. Admittedly, it might have come out a little snippy (I usually try to be polite on Twitter, but I was getting fed up with all the recent Regina promotion), but it was rooted in genuine curiosity. I find the phenomenon of fans rooting for and justifying the actions of villains to be really interesting. Following my tweet, I immediately received angry tweets from three different evil regals, none of whom I follow, and none of whom follow me. One of them told me that I take it way too seriously and that "it's all made up". I jokingly tweeted her back saying "it is?!". She then blocked me. A second fan told me that Regina's redemption has been amazing and I should just "deal with it". The last one called my original tweet "exceedingly rude", scrolled through my timeline, determined that I'm a Hook fan, and told me that Hook is also a rapist and murderer, maybe even worse than Regina. I tweeted him back agreeing that Hook is a murderer, though not a rapist, and that while I do like Hook, I would never try to justify his actions or argue that he is automatically deserving of a happy ending (and I think I've articulated that same sentiment on these forums before). Eventually I ended up deleting my original tweet because I didn't want to get a bunch more angry fans on my case. Stealinghome, you hit the nail on the head. I can understand liking an evil character and maybe even wanting them to live happily ever after. What I can't understand is how some fans will either justify the actions of that character, or say that because the character stopped doing evil deeds, everyone should forget all about the past. I don't understand how some fans (and the writers, for that matter) feel that just because Regina stopped raping and murdering people, she has "come so far" and therefore deserves the happiest of endings. It's one thing to enjoy and even root for a character; it's another to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to express a differing opinion about that character. I know this isn't unique to the Once Upon a Time fandom. I've been a huge Harry Potter fan since I was 10, and I only recently found out that Draco Malfoy is not only a very popular character, but that tons people actually ship him with Hermione. This also reminds me of Snape fans. Many of them claim that Snape was such a hero, but really, the only reason Snape stopped working for a cause that was rooted in the extinction of an entire race was because he happened to care about ONE of the victims. I'm a fan of the character of Snape, but I'm also the first to admit that he was a pretty terrible person. It's really interesting how fans are exposed to the exact same story but come away with so many varying and extreme opinions.

Fair point. I guess I'm just saying that I don't think it's solely from the focus on Regina, though that certainly might be part of it. Speaking from my own experience, I'm getting kind of tired of meeting new characters who I know are just going to disappear by the end of the half-season. And while I liked the split-season format in season three, it's not really working for me anymore. Anyway, I think there could be a number of factors contributing to viewers' decisions to stop watching.

I watched the premiere with my friend, who's a casual viewer. I think he was surprised by how annoyed I got with some of the Regina stuff. I told him from the beginning that I wasn't a fan of Regina, and while he actually agreed and said that he didn't particularly like her, he also said that he did feel sorry for her. I then went on to point out some of the reasons I don't find her remotely sympathetic, most of which he, as a casual viewer, hadn't considered. It always surprises me that Regina is so popular and that a lot of fans do actually see her as a victim (and a hero), but I guess it makes sense. The writers are constantly telling us (though not necessarily showing us) that she's a victim, so of course a lot of viewers take that at face value. Most of Regina's worst crimes occurred in the first couple of seasons, so they aren't fresh in the minds of viewers. What I still don't understand, though, is how some fans will actually defend not only "reformed" Regina, but some of her past crimes as well, as though she were somehow justified in them. But I guess this is true of fans of other characters, too. One time on Twitter, I made a comment about Rumple and Milah's relationship, referring to Milah as Rumple's victim, and someone told me that she deserved to be murdered by Rumple, since she abandoned her family. That's the kind of fan response that I don't understand. Hook is my favorite character and I'm completely biased in his favor, but I would never defend him hitting Belle, for instance. I'm getting off-topic now; I just find it really interesting that there's such a trend toward not only rooting for the bad guys' redemption, but also defending/justifying their actions.

I think the show began as Emma's story, but as Regina's popularity took off, they sort of shifted directions and, IMO, lost their way. As much as I would like to think the decline in ratings is due to the focus on Regina, that's probably not the case. I think it's pretty normal for ratings to drastically decline in a show's later seasons. Only the very best shows are able to maintain--and in rare cases, increase--their ratings as time goes on.

I used to find Regina watchable but that's quickly changing as I go through my season four rewatch. I don't know if it's the writing or if part of it has to do with acting choices, but something about the character's portrayal seems really off to me. I also find Zelena completely unwatchable, for the reasons mentioned above. I'm just rewatching the scene where Regina apologizes to Marco. There are some really good things about it, like Marco being allowed to point out that maybe Regina doesn't deserve a happy ending after having stolen everyone else's. Plus, any time Regina apologizes, that's definitely progress. But this quote from Regina during her apology pretty much sums up why I don't like the way her redemption arc has been handled: "I was out of line. It's just every time I seem to make progress towards my happy ending, I hit another dead end. But I know I'll never find it if I revert to my old ways. I'm sorry." To me, Regina's redemption has been more about finding her happiness than actually empathizing with her victims and feeling remorse for the pain she's caused them. It seems like the writers can't tell the difference between the two, but there's a big difference in my mind. Heroes aren't heroes because they're being good for the sake of getting a happy ending; they're heroes because they're willing to make sacrifices for the sake of doing what's right.

I agree that Regina killing Emma would be much better storytelling. I was just remembering a spoiler about Regina saying something about how she (or they?) should have done something in Camelot, and wondered if she could've been referring to killing Emma. Then again, I think she was talking to Snow, and I don't know if even Regina is insensitive enough to tell someone their daughter should be killed. Or I could be completely wrong about this whole spoiler. Anyway, I'm glad the reason Emma gives Regina the dagger is that Regina would be the only one willing to kill her. That actually does make some sense.