Cirien

Eh she was a princess who knew her sister was going to be Queen, and had done some charitable functions before the ones shown in this episode, she knew what was expected of because she'd done it before. Her insistence of saying she had more character than her sister, shows just how immature and self centred she was- which fine she's 23, but still by the end of this ep, I'd have hoped she realised that *Personality* ( which is what Margaret had) does not equal character. And she didn't just offend *anybody* She offended very powerful, political figures. There's a problem right there

So Tomas is offered a life altering opportunity eh? Why am I not surprised? Like at all?

In the real world it's probably because they haven't cast him yet. Story wise I think we're meant to assume, that with the number of demons increasing in Chicago- that something is up with the pope. Taken literally it's just that the Pope is coming to the city. But given that the Demon worshipping cult is planning this event- and has clearly been planning it for some time - I think we're meant to at least suspect that the "He" the poster is referring is not the Pope but the Devil, especially as the message could also be for the demons that are flocking towards the city- it's a Double Entendre, could the poster be for both good Christian Folk and the Demons?

I don't think that the Friars are working with Jessica or she's working for them but after Maria saw that look between them, they'll certainly be trying to get them together more often. I have a feeling that if Tomas had gone to the meeting Maria would have started planting even more seeds in his mind about turning his back on the church in order to be with her - I mean we got Chris doing that in this ep anyway what with her telling him to "hold on to the people you love, you hold them close" And before I continue on my Tomas and Jessica hatin' I'd just like to thank everyone who gave me like for my last post. *curtseys* But......can someone please smack Jessica upside the head? Does she honestly think that Tomas just stops being a Priest because he's in a different place? Or that she stops being married? It's as if she- if she's not a plant of the cult- doesn't seem to respect the vows that Tomas has taken, (let alone hers but okay), she sees them as something that can be easily discarded, and okay sure maybe he didn't want to be a Priest, and only did it for his grandmother, but the fact is he took his vows and hasn't renounced them. If she really loved him then she wouldn't keep pushing him to break them all the time. Look I'm a sucker a for a good "forbidden love" story as much as anyone else, and one of my favourite stories was the story of Assumpta and Peter in Ballykissangel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballykissangel I loved watching them fall in love and loved watching them admit it to each other and was devastated when they killed Assumpta at the end of season 3. But I just can't get behind these two and it's not because of their "love" It's because Tomas is clearly still ashamed/undecided about whether this is the right thing for him/wants to have his cake and eat it too, and there's an actual case of demonic possession in his parish and if he goes in there again the demon will use this secret against him again. THAT? Is the fucking problem right now

It may be a huge misdirection but yes, I think she's there to tempt him away. I hate to imagine what will happen to Tomas- but Dude .....you were warned like three times already, and it's not like the 12th century, she can divorce her husband and you can leave and be a lecturer or something, and you can live together. Like come on you have options. EDIT I just rewatched the first ep and remember the homeless possessed man who tried to grab Casey? It's Father Tomas who sees him first, so he's definitely being targeted- and also, he and Jessica have been caught out before? Ohhhhhh Okay then. And damnit he should have listened to his sister

I just checked on Wikipedia and Chris MacNeil was an actress in the film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exorcist_(film) and book

Tomas is getting on my last nerve: No idiot you didn't just make one mistake. You've essentially been carrying on an emotional affair for however long you've been sending letters to each other, when everyone close to you ( your sister for one), told you to break it off. You can't have your fucking cake and eat it too you moron. If you didn't want to be a priest you can always leave, you know. If you don't think you can hack it as a Priest you can always leave. No you just want to have your cake and eat it too. You comprised yourself, no wonder Marcus doesn't want you anywhere near Casey. He told you to break it off, your sister told you, but of course you think you can handle it- well done. Oh and Jessica? While I don't think she's been sent by the demon or the cult she needs to step off. Everytime they've met she's actively tried to seduce him. I get that she's unhappy in her marriage, but honestly I think it's more about the thrill about having a priest want her. Like sod off. And no the world doesn't "owe" you anything. Who do you think you are Romeo and Juliet? Like were Tomas and Jessica actually together at one point ? Or was it just a case of they wanted to be together and "fell in love" while she was married? Like I'm not opposed to the trope of forbidden love, or a Priest falling in love, but I am when the two people involved are boneheaded, and selfish- ( but they're in loooooooove!!!)

Also remember in that episode "Tinthonus" where that crime scene photographer - Alfred Felig was basically immortal because he cheated death, because when death came it missed ( because he turned away) . At the end of that episode Scully was shot by her temporary partner and Fellig asked her to look away when she could see death coming for her . Scully recovered fully but Fellig died. Mulder suggested that it was because Fellig had taken her death upon himself, and because she turned away, she is now immortal, until a time that she wishes to die

Coming back to the episode, for me the "24 years" night was made even sweeter when you do the math on Peter Capaldi's real life marriage. He and his wife were married in 1991, ​Meaning by the time this ep aired they had been married for 24 years I just: ​awwwww *sniffles*

I mean if you listen to the commentary for "A Study in Pink" both Moffat and Gatiss talk about this lucky coincidence that, at the U.K armed forces were at war in Afghanistan ...

YMMV I never saw where people were saying they despised her (Perhaps they despised the writing but not her per se) . And she was a teacher in her first or second year? That's a woman who's still learning. If she'd already been established as a teacher when we first saw her I wouldn't have a problem with it. And I'm sorry the flash cards were condescending. He already said he was rude in his first incarnation, and he's been rude in other incarnations. He didn't need the flashcards. He's not a child, he's a grown ass Time Lord. If she'd ( and we'd been introduced to ) introduced the cards straight after his regeneration then fine. There it would have worked. But are we really to believe that after near a year of this regeneration he still needs them. That's offensive. But there's another thing to bear in mind. For many Clara's attitude ( or what many see as her more offensive moments) works with 11 because the two actors look similar in age. But when we see her with Capaldi, it triggers something in the viewer that leads us to see it as offensive. With Donna she'd lived ( and BTW speaking of her specialness of ​course if would be her leaf story that wins the day.) She seemed older and more world weary and mature. So when she told him to shut it felt earned, But like I said YMMV.

YMMV Clara deserved to die because she behaved like an idiot and though she was as smart as the Doctor. That's hubris that's pride. I liked that she played with high stakes and she was wrong to and she died which was a natural result of her arc. It worked. Her final ep left a bad taste in my mouth because of the fact it undid Heaven Sent and the ending of "face the Raven". I would have loved for her ending to be "Last Christmas" They really parallel Donna and Clara a lot and I wanted to see Clara be brilliant on her own without a Tardis and just being an amazing teacher and taking children on the same intellectual journey to parallel the physical journey the doctor took her on. And it's not that she was too cool, it's that from her first couple of ep she was introduced as a mystery, compared with Rose who was working in retail, that already sets her up be the most special companion ever. It's not chance that has them meet ( and yes Donna I know) it's him being fascinated by her and then we find out she was spread throughout his timeline. And then she's the woman who formed him as child. It's too much on one character. And Rose became "Bad Wolf" and the Doctor had to basically sacrifice himself to save her, Donna became the "Doctor Donna" she had to be mindwiped. Clara plays with high stakes, dies because of her overconfidence, and not only does the Doctor take her from the moment just before she dies with no intention of putting her and who cares if the universe goes kabloey but she gets a tardis and companion of her own. THAT I didn't like. You think we were meant to think the Doctor was in love with her? So the next companions going to be Martha esque then, in terms of a rebound? Or did the 24 years with River solve that?

Remember how River dies the second part of the two parter (Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead?) Before she sacrificed herself in 10's place she talks about the night they spent together before she came to the Library, where he took her to the singing towers, after getting a haircut and a new suit. And he gave her his screwdriver, (in order to save her). Now granted that night lasted 24 years, but we know she's going off to the Library now, so it closes her loop

Speaking of the different perspectives: Did anyone notice how drastically different Allison and Noah remembered the apartment above the diner? From Noah's perspective it was drab and cold and unfurnished. From Allison's perspective it's done up beautifully and looks like a home and something she takes pride in. To me that's just another indication of how much Noah really doesn't respect her or her dream and ambitions. It's funny how last season we were all talking about how Helen was the snob, whenever she dismissed Allison as a "waitress" but this season we saw Noah do the same thing when he introduced her as a "Nurse" and not a Waitress ( Yes I know she was a Nurse, but when Noah met her she was a waitress-) going back to school, to be a doctor, that would have been fine. Yes maybe it was to avoid more comparisons with the book but I thought it was interesting.

Maybe. Their relationship started via secrets and the need to hide something, then when Noah and Allison were in a stable relationship they started to fall out of love with each other. Noah seemed to be recapturing that chemistry with ex wife . Then this happened. I don't know on some level I think Noah and Allison get off on doing something underhand or something that goes against the norm. This may be an extension of it. He didn't look like a man in love when he looked back at Allison at the end of the ep

YMMV, for me at least, it was because I felt we were meant to *see* it as a triumphant ending. She gets her own TARDIS and her own Companion, and is planning on taking the long way round getting back to Gallifrey and is travelling through the universe in a TARDIS whose chameleon circuit is broken. Moffat has essentially rewarded her selfishness and irresponsibility, by making her the doctor. As I said above ( or well a couple of us have said) the universe is depending on her dying. And she's "taking the long way round". I mean Clara from the beginning was "The Impossible Girl" We're supposed to see it as a reverse Donna, but it just stuck in my craw.

I mean that beach front was meant to be really valuable- and let's face it Cole probably did the developers a favour by burning it to the ground. Also didn't Allison get some money in the divorce, at the very least, she's able to put down a lot of money for it.

The more I talk about it the more annoyed I get. And it's really obvious in hindsight but it felt like this season, was the season where the Doctor and Clara admitted that they had feelings for each other. I mean we all knew Clara did, as of "The Time of" but it really felt like we were meant to see them as being in love- albeit a non consummated love- and that's why he was so desperate to get her back, in that she's the dark mirror to both Rose and Donna- but it was an *unhealthy* kind of love, that and the Doctor and Clara, are much better off without each other. (I can see how this occurs on both ends. Clara fancied 11, and after Danny she has nothing else, and for the Doctor, his obsession with her, carried over from 11, coupled with Clara being seeded through his timeline, and even influencing him as a child) But unlike Donna who's capable of telling the Doctor to *stop*, Clara would encourage him to go further- (IMO and YMMV)- which is what this ep seemed to be saying, and why they had to be separated- though I would have preferred them to have to make that decision on their own, and for the Doctor to take her back after they admitted they had feelings for each other. But because Peter Capaldi was adamantly opposed the idea of having a romantic relationship with a companion who appeared to be younger (like half his age) than him, that subtext came out of nowhere, only really appearing in the good bye scene in "Face the Raven" One real example of Clara being a bad influence, is the way she decides to "take the long way" back to Gallifrey . The universe is depending on her dying, and she appears to be taking her own sweet time getting back there!!! I mean. Anyone else, even R​ose and he would told her to go back, but for Clara it's okay? WHAT??? ​ ( and I'm sorry but no way was the Clara/12 relationship was a relationship of equals- it was again unhealthy co-dependency, disguised as Romance)

Quoting you again because *cough* I'm slightly obsessed *cough*, but honestly? There's no reason that they couldn't have done something similar for Clara that they did in "last Christmas, where she finally decided she wanted to stay on earth, and instead she travelled on Earth and taught all over. That would have been an ending similar to Sarah Jane Smith- and it would have been perfect

I think you'd fit right in with Afterbuzz panel re: this episode. especially the parts that I bolded. ( also completely in agreement with your entire post). They in their review of this ep, talked about the idea of death seemingly having no consequences this season, which yeah it hasn't. Yael on the panel also raised the point of what happens if she dies away on one of her adventures? (I mean if Clara *can* die?) Will the universe tear itself apart? She's a ticking time bomb for the universe itself and she knows that the universe will tear itself part if she doesn't die on Trap Street and is still going and reckless adventures, endangering all of existence itself.... and yet we're supposed to see the ending as a triumphant ending for her?? Don't think so. For me this goes all the way back to last season when she was talking about Danny's death- the boring part didn't bother me....but the part where she was like " I am owed something better?" That bothered me ( yes I know it was her grief talking, doesn't mean there still wasn't a sense of entitlement) Not to mention Flatline, where the Doctor disapproved of the way she acted as the doctor and now she gets her own Tardis??? I don't get. It also destroys the inevitable conclusion of her arc, which was her death. And this isn't just with Clara, but with Donna which they referenced heavily this season: Anyone who tries to too much like the Doctor- in Donna's case literally-, dies. ( again in Donna's case figuratively and in Clara's case literally). Clara died because of her hubris- She thought she could be the doctor, cheat the timeclock like the doctor and outsmart everyone like the doctor. She couldn't. Her flaw was her overconfidence in her abilities and she paid the price for. It was a huge price, but by universal standards it was a justified one. She played high stakes poker and she lost. That's a story worth telling and Moffat undercut it by having her fly around the universe in an effort at giving her agency. (Also she's calling the Timelords monsters? She's literally putting the entire universe at risk so that she can have some adventures?? (okay fine the doctor did it first), I say pot,kettle,black) However. I think this shows just why Clara and the Doctor weren't good for each other . She's really pushing the limits of what she can do, and seems to have not a care in the world about the risks of what she's doing...and can you imagine what it would be like if she was still with the Doctor? How they would be pushing the limits of everything? ​How they could potentially end the damn universe, with not care in the world? It was a good thing they had to be separated, ( and frankly I would have preferred him to remember her and the Clara in the diner to be another fragment), because they really weren't good for each other. They were two addicts who instead of helping each other, enabled each other in a way that seems..slightly abusive? Frankly, give Ashildr the TARDIS and then let her take Clara on one last trip, and then send her back to Trap street. That would have been better ending than the one we got

^This^. The Doctor meeting another Clara Splinter would be a wonderful and fitting end to her story. and if they did want to bring back JLC for a special it could be a way to do it. Not saying they would but it would be do able.

While I feel that the send off was appropriate for a companion...I also think that this episode was trying to evoke feelings that the Series hadn't earned. I felt for the Doctor I felt for Rigsy. But not for Clara. And as Moffat says here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p038fndm....It'sno ones fault Clara died but her own. Hopefully the Doctor will be able to realise that. after a while. And was Ashildr planning on committing Suicide?

I'll just say this: Rape is about power not sex. Many women (myself included) don't say no. However it's complicated , with Noah and Alison. For me it was borderline rape. As it was all about Noah exerting sexual power over her. Though, that kiss before hand could seen as consent. ....it was hard to watch

Re: Harry's Shatner's-esque speaking: Wasn't it a put on for his audience? In the confrontation between Harrison Wells and Jay Garrick he went back into his more "normal" speech patterns

Exactly: The key word is bias. OTOH I just asked my father who's the same age (in fact probably older) than the Indian fathers seen in the show and he still calls is Bombay. All of his friends back in India call it Bombay. All of his friends over in the U.K ( where we live) call it Bombay. This post goes into much more of the political nature of the name change including this: Most liberal Indians still prefer calling it Bombay. They are not opposed to the new name, but they don’t like the pro-violence, xenophobic political parties and the agendas behind the name change. http://www.sameerhalai.com/blog/mumbai-or-bombay-doesnt-matter-youre-probably-saying-it-wrong-anyway/ From here: http://www.sameerhalai.com/blog/mumbai-or-bombay-doesnt-matter-youre-probably-saying-it-wrong-anyway/