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Once thing else I've noticed is after Dean hands the computer to Sam, and says he doesn't want to talk about Mary, he looks so tired. It made me wonder if Dean's not sleeping.

On a scale of 1-10 Dean's agitation level was probably about a 25. When he's in that state its hard for him to sit still. I figure he went to a bar for some drinks but it may be the atmosphere was only making things worse. What I mean is that sometimes when your angry or irritated any little thing can make things worse. So the music, bottles clanging, pool balls clanging against each other can be a trigger. If Dean wanted to drink himself into oblivion, ironically, the bar might not be the best place just due to how crowded and noisy they can be. (Hopefully, that makes sense). Given Dean's mental state, I doubt strongly doubt Sam poured the booze out. I think Dean drank it. Him going for the hard stuff, is as much as sign that he's struggling. As for the Dean wanting the scotch, I think the show was trying pay homage to the Rufus scene more than anything. Rufus wanted nothing to do with Dean until he pulled out the scotch. But I do think Dean's inital reaction was wanting a glass. Same with the hunt. Dean's decisions are mostly impulsive. So if he wanted the scotch, and he went on the hunt just due to the need to "hit something" its something I can see Dean doing. But Dean is very observant, so while "fact finding" might not have been his motivation, its what he ended up doing. He noticed the tattoo almost immediately so its possible that he shifted gears pretty quick. I've enjoyed the other dark Dean storylines so I could get on board with this. I just don't want mopey/depressed Dean Does anyone remember the last episode we saw Dean drinking he hard stuff?

I rewatched Asa Fox and Regarding Dean recently and noticed: In Asa Fox, in the scene where they're looking over Asa's things and Dean says that there is no better way to go then dying on the job, Sam asks if Dean believes that and when Dean says "you don't". Sam remains silent and says they should get back. Then in Regarding Dean when he's talking about how cool the job is, Sam says something like if you like crappy food and motels. I wonder if the writers were laying groundwork for Sam to join. With regards to Dean being uncomfortable about torture, I wonder how much of that was the writers and how much of that was Jensen. Dean's hesistation before descending the steps to hell were adlibbed by Jensen. So was that the authorial intent or Jensen elevating the writing? Hopefully it will be something that will come up in the future.

I like this. I remember reading tweets from a con goer that Julian teased at a con that death might be back (no I don't remember which one). But I also don't know if he giving hinting or it was just a typical, "It's supernatural, anyone can come back' response TPTB like to give.

I hope they bring back death and there are consequences for Dean. I was so disappointed last year when there were none.

Thank you. The actor has a close up of it as a header. Hopefully it will means something or at least we see Dean trying to figure out if it means something. They made a point to show Dean noticing it. I wonder if this British Men of Letters thing is going to carry over into next season. We don't have that many episodes left and there is still Lucifer and Lucifer's spawn to deal with. So many loose threads, and I hope the writers don't try to cram it all in.

The thing with that scene is also Dean had no clue there was a spell to release to remove the mark underway. Killing death had nothing to do with releasing the darkness. If Sam hadn't used the book of the damned the Killing death wouldn't have changed anything. It would just be Dean with the Mark. Cas told him he could go a thousand years before he scummed. So killing death didn't endanger the world. Sam removing the Mark did. Killing death was just a dead reaper. It had absolutely no consequences whatsoever.

Do you have the source?

I agree with all this. Its why I don't think they'll go the secrets and lies route. Its easier for the writers to have Sam state why he's working for the brits and pull out the "let me be an adult" when Dean doesn't agree forcing him to take shift his thinking to Sam's POV instead of allowing Dean to maintain his convictions. I really think the Mary issues isn't going to be brought up again because it usually isn't after Dean gets put in his place and apologizes. The burden is always on Dean to change his behavior, its never on the other person. Mary working with the Brits in secret isn't wrong, Dean's wrong for not being okay with being lied too is how the narrative framed that ep. I also can see them taking Dean's leadership role away and putting Sam in charge of the Men of Letters. SuperSam seems to be the Dabb/Berens MO, and Im guessing it won't be long before Sam is the prize Winchester for the Brits and Dean Who? Except on this show it does. Sam seems to get upset that Dean didn't trust him. He never acknowledged that he had to change and work to earn back Dean's trust. When Sam announced that he went to Ruby because Dean was bossy why was Dean not allowed a counter arguement her and to defend himself. Why wasn't he given a speech where he pointed out all times he gave Ruby a chance. In Heaven and Hell, getting the angels and demons together was Sam's idea and Dean went along with that and Ruby had a big part. Dean even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying. There were multiple times in s4 where Dean did accept Sam's choices. By allowed Dean to voice none of that suggests you want to frame the narrative to have the audience accept that yup, it really was Dean being bossy and not Sam's flaws. Rarely, does the show actually say Sam messing up was due to his flaws, but usually due to others flaws. Ruby- dean was bossy. Trials- Dean doesn't think Sam is capable, and Dean hurt Sam by not putting him first. Sam's speech in Sacrifice even came across as the biggest reason Sam feels he let Dean down is because Dean didn't accept his choices. "What happens when you decide I can't be trusted." Puts the burden on trusting Sam on Dean.

It makes perfect sense because this is exactly what the show and Jensen himself touched on about Dean's time in Purgatory. About why he would describe it as pure. Its just a black/white kill or be killed world. It was easy to navigate and uncomplicated. The real world is messy. I don't think the show is going to go down the secrets and lies route, and if they do it won't be for more than an episode. I figure Sam will come clean by the end of next week at the latest because set reports for ep 16 have Jensen filming with the actor that plays Mick. Because if Sam is lying and disappearing, I would think Dean would figure it out pretty quick and it wouldn't be hard to figure out what Sam is up too. As for the story, I wouldn't mind seeing Dean develop his relationship with Mr. Ketch further. I liked their chemistry. I'm hoping for a reveal that the Brits arent' as efficent as they think they are. That monsters in England just got smarter, and are better at staying off the radar. I wonder how Dean and Mary are going to treat each other going forward. If Dean is still holding her at arms length or is softer towards her. Will Dean research what that symbol meant that he noted on Mr. Ketch.

I have to admit I'm really concerned about Deans' role going forward. Because unless the writers are planning to split Sam and Dean up (and we know they're not), unless Sam keeps his work secret how do you actually go about writing their different points of view? The writers have established that even if the Brits suck at everything they do, they're methods seem to be working as neither Sam nor Dean can find a case. So how do you have Dean maintain his POV without looking like petulant child. If Sam comes clean and has access to toys and for example they're trying to take out a werewolf pack what plausible excuse could Dean give for not taking the safer route instead of the old fashioned way and risking their lives. ( I can see a future ep of Dean getting a hunter killed by insisting they stick to the old methods. ). If Dean has a reasonable objection is the show just going to fall back on the tired bossy/treats Sam like a child/meen!Dean trope the writers like to use. They just did it in this last ep. Dean's points to Mary were legitimate. The only thing the writers focuses on was the "mom" line and acted like Dean's major issues was that Mary didn't bring him a bowl of soup or sing hey Jude, even though. I don't think the writers meant for that apology to be taken at anything but face value. They also did it in Dean's scene with Chuck. He brings up good points and all he's told in the end is he's mixing God up with his father. So how long is it before Sam pulls the "stop treating me like a child, let me make my own decisions" card, which he tends to do when Dean disagrees with him. I'm not convinced there is some kind of con going on. The writers tend to go surface (see Dean's apology) and I really think Dabb believes that these brits are are everything and more. I think Sam and Mary joining is really because they believe what they're being told. On this show I find what you see is what you get. So unless the plan is for Dean to jump on board and relatively quickly, how exactly is this going to work. Once again they've set a scenario that can't unless they're willing to buck the status quo. The storyline could actually work if they were willing too. I don't mind conflict if its organic. The Brits mission statement is something that they've long established that Sam can get on board with. He's never been into hunting the way Dean is. Its been established that if something seems to good to be true it really is. It would be totally in character for Dean to object on those grounds and not throw in with right away. Dean hunting with Ketch, while Sam works jobs with Mary, and Mick. Would make sense since we've seen that Ketch seems to be frustrated with being a lap dog. Dean/Ketch vs Sam/BMOL. Not all conflict has to be bad because both sides are not operating for nefarious purposes. They both want to rid the world of monsters and then each side could come to a realization that each method has something to offer and then both eventually merging. Neither side is right or wrong. But since the brothers can't be sperated for longer than 30 seconds, how exactly do you tell this story without bad conflict (secrets and lies) or once again sending the message that its only Dean that has to change?

Thanks for this topic. Its good to have a place to express frustration.

The problem with this is that you essentially take the story away from Sam and Dean. If you push how effective these men of letters are, and emphasize just how well their methods work, how do you avoid telling the audience just how ineffective Sam and Dean have been over the years. (yes, they may have stopped apocalypses but they played a big part in starting them too). Sam and Dean are supposed to be the people other hunters looks up too. But now they're just employees working for people who are just so much better than they are. Its why its doesn't work for me. I know that good monsters are few and far between so odds are not a lot of them were killed during the exterminataions but how many people were caught in the cross fire. Lets say a goup of people are walking home from work and they see HMSS use one of those bombs on a vamp nest. Vamps look human so to people walking home would see what looks like people being killed. Would the brits elimate them to keep their secrets. To anyone Sam and Dean would look guilty, and none of those soliders deseved to get killed for just doing their jobs. So when they say they had no loss of life how true is that really. What do they consider a loss, or are people acceptable loses. How high is their body count?

I really like this idea. I am looking forward to Dean and Crowley scenes. I've missed the two of them together. Someone asked if Dean and Crowley's partnership was over at a con and Mark said something about watching the rest of the season. I figured he was trolling as he often does. (Anyone whose ever seen a Mark Sheppard Con panel knows that not a complaint). But good to see he was telling the truth. Plus, the glasses are back.

UO- I really don't think Perez did himself any favors with that interview. He basically said the writers are keeping score. When they do you really can't blame fans if they do it too.

The way this season is shaping up, I feel like its far more likely that Sam will turn Mick and Dean will... got lost somewhere on some back stretch of road.

I never said Dean has to be be away from Sam to be happy, I said he needs space to discover who he is. The two aren't the same thing. I'm not asking Dean to be gone forever, which is why I said I would like to to happen over hiatus. Mary walked away, Sam walked away. But Dean has never had that chance. He's never really been given the option to go and leave on his own terms like Mary and Sam have done. He's tried but circumstances have never really ideal Since Dean was four he's been thrust into different roles. He's been Sam's brother, or John's son, caretaker, protector, or bodyguard but he's never really had the chance to just be Dean. The closest he might have had would either be Purgatory or demon Dean but in both those instances it really wasn't Dean's choice or wasn't really Dean. The relationship you describe is not equal if Dean thinks Sam is more important. If Dean can't see value in his own life, then its still very much a bodyguard/protected dynamic. It came from John making Dean feel like a failure if something happens to Sam. Notice how many times Dean calls Sam his job, or responsibility. I want to see Dean stop this line of thinking. Yes, Dean's said that he's happy with just fighting the good fight with Sam, but what about after? What if The Brits succeed? Where does that leave Dean? How does he know he what more he might/or might not need if he's never had the chance to find out? I'm not looking for Dean to stop taking a bullet for those he loves. I know he'll aways do that for Sam, Cas or Mary. What I want to see is Dean stop trying to eat one. That for me would be how I see Dean developing self-esteem. Believing that he matters, that he makes a difference and it would matter if he was gone. That is not, Dean must get away from Sam to be happy. Its Dean getting away and learning to value himself. If these Brits are so darn impressive why didn't they share their secrets with the Americans 50 years ago. Where were they with the magic egg during the apocalypse. . Kind of selfish of them to not share with the rest of the class. How many of those vampires they exterminated didn't deserve to be killed? Why didn't Sam and Dean let Cain continue. How many lives would he have saved if he murdered everyone with the potential to be a murder. How many humans have they murdered in to process. They don't care about human life if it gets in the way of their goals. The show can't have its cake and eat it too.

That would actually be an interesting turn of events. With HMSS going after Dean for getting into their way. I would love it if Dean turned out to be one of the five things, after all he can kill death without consequences. But the writers would never let Dean be that special. It will never happen thought because the writers would actually have to write for Dean.

For me, there is a difference between being on screen and being relevant. It's not that it's Dean light, its that its Dean unnecessary. You could have given Jensen all 8 days off and it doesn't make a difference to the episode. Nothing Dean said or did changed the outcome. Jensen only filmed two days during Mother's Little Helper. Despite that they still furthered Dean's Mark of Cain storyline by having Crowley test him while Sam was off hunting. With this ep, it feels like they sent Dean off with Ketch just to get rid of him. This is also the 2nd time Dean didn't arrive until after everything was said and done. They could have showed a brief scene of Dean and Ketch taking care of some vampires outside the facility or something instead of making it look like Dean's suddenly decided to take the scenic route to every hunt. How much would I love it, if the cliff hanger, whatever happens Sam wakes up and finds a note from Dean that says, everyone else had their space so he decided he needs some too and he's just gone. It will never happen though, even if I think its exactly what Dean needs. He needs to get away from his family and their expectations of who he should be and find out just who he is and who he wants to be. I've often seen metas and analysis written about how Sam needs to get out of Dean's shadow, but i've always felt the opposite. His whole life has been "Watch out for Sammy. Take care of your little brother boy." More than anything I want to see Dean learn to watch out for Dean. We've had glimpses of that this season. Its the one thing I've been enjoying. Dean standing up for himself and having some self-worth. I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop where Dean's just put back in his place of hand-wringer, chef and maid (because apparently Mary is too good for that). I'm worried that next week we're going to get a return to that mind set for Dean. Dean unloading on Mary was a joy to watch, but it was all undone at the end of the. I'm not expecting some secret plan either. The writers have demonstrated time and time again how lazy they are. (See above point about Dean suddenly not being able to arrive at hunts). We haven't seen one scene where Dean wanted anything from Mary but suddenly he's sorry he thought she should be baking cookies. I think Sam is really buying what they are saying. I can see it playing out the like the Ruby story with Dean ending up apologizing for not thinking the HMSS are all that. HMSS are legends only in their own minds. They're intel was wrong, their base is useless, they suck at planning, and they can't react to to a situation that doesn't go according to plan (which they also can't do). But Mary and now Sam are still singing their praises about how great and efficient and powerful they are. Do the writers not realize how big a disconnect connect between the show and the tell is right now with these guys? Suddenly all monsters are bad, and need to be eliminated? That's been a huge part of SPN since 2.3. To make this storyline line work they have to ignore it. It's usually Sam whose advocating to give them a chance. When Ketch was hunting I wish Dean had brought up Benny. After all the Men of Letters know about him. He saved both Sam and Dean. I wish I could believe that this is going to come out, but I feel like Dabb really believes these Brits are just all that and are right. The problem is that with s13 guaranteed and a very strong possibility of s14, we know they can't get rid of monsters. It's the trial storyline all over again. I hope the writers remember Dean is good with symbols and have him attempt to find out what Mr. Ketch's tattoo means. But at this point, Im hoping they remember to actually write him into episodes.

that was meant as sarcasm about Dean developing a habit of disappearing in 3rd act and missing all the action.

That was my thought too, about Toni's kid. I wish I could believe Dean was going to research the tattoo. He'd probably get lost on the way to the library and get there after Sam found out what it meant and dealt with it.

The problem with this is that Dean never really had a chance to form any expectations. After Mary showed up, Dean was dealing with finding Sam. Then they went right into a hunt. THat's hardly expecting tuckins and soup. Then Mary left. It seems more like a tell rather than a show but it doesn't work when Mary has hardly spent any time with her sons.

Another ep that is going on my never watch again list. It's just another episode where Dean doesn't matter. At least the 4th time this season its happened. Berens, Perez and Dabb all seem to have no use for Dean. After an epic opening we go one step forward 10 seasons back to Dean being the whipping boy. Everything he said to Mary was the truth, but of course he has to be made to take it back an apologize. No. Just no. But that was written on the wall the minute Dean spoke his mind I'm so tired of the show making Dean arrive just after the action is all over just so Sam can get the kill. I don't want the Alpha dead. 11 years of show history thrown out the window. Sam's always the one championing monsters. Why is it no one mentioned this Sam going behind Dean's back. Not surprising, he picked the Brits side. The Brits are lousy hunters, planners and intelligence gathers. Shouldn't it be a red flag that no hunter worth his salt wants anything to do with them. They suck. Why would anyone want to work with them. Sam's okay with humans being "handled" Mary and Sam are lying about the colt. But I'm sure Dean will have to apologize to Sam when he gets mad at Sam lying to him. Terrible episode all the way around. I'd give it a one for the epic opening if they hadn't ruined it. 0 out of 10

Yes its straight out of the Winchester playbook, but I would hope that at 12 seasons in they would start learning from their mistakes. Mary knew the consequences of the demon deal. She also knows if something sounds too good to be true it probably is. Yes, Sam and Dean as much strangers as the Brits are, but I would hope that Mary's loyalty might be to her sons. But twice already she was loyal to the Brits When your actions contradict your mission statement, you either have to change one or the other. Either Mary needs to tell Sam and Dean everything or she needs to stop working in the Brits. If she doesn't she's playing the middle, and like Dean said. Pick a side. Its why I didn't like anything about the trial story line. You would think that Sam and Dean would have learned from their mistakes and not jumped in blind. The world wasn't in any more danger than it is on a regular basis, so there was no reason to rush in.

And any humans who get in their way.