ILoveReading

I don't know if I believe Singer's remarks as more than lip service because despite the flack they got for killing off Charlie he had no issues with killing off Eileen. I sometimes wonder if there was bad blood between Robbie Thompson and TPTB when he left, and that's why we don't' see Charlie. Since Thompson created the character they'd have to pay him for a charlie appearance. (If I'm understanding how residuals work.)

I'm looking forward to the scene Jensen described where Dean reaches out to Chuck to bring Cas, Crowley and Mary back. I think Jensen is going to be brilliant as always. Every single storyline sounds 'meh' Hopefully it plays out better than it sounds. Kind of disappointing that they didnt' go with Jensen's suggestion to keep the scruff to show where Sam and Dean are at mentally.

Thinking Dean would make a good teacher, comes from the episode Freaks and Geeks. Dean made a great mentor for them. It made me think, that for me a great ending for Dean would have been opening the bunker to Supernatural Orphans. (Basically the plot of WayWard Sisters). I also think Dean would make a great counsellor, something like like probation or parole officer working with troubled youth.

I think this applies to both brothers at times.

I'd disagree Dean joined the Brits on equal footing. He was manipulated. Sam made sure to put him in a position where it was almost impossible for him to say no. To me equal footing would have been Sam coming to Dean the minute he decided to join, and saying "Hey, Dean I want to work with these guys for reasons X,Y,Z" He would have listened to Dean when Dean's objected and then they might have found common ground. Sam didn't do that. He said "give me time" and proceeded to lie and go behind Dean's back and make Dean work for them without their knowledge. That's not equal. Imagine if Dean did that to Sam? He'd be accused of once again disrespecting Sam's agency, and once again manipulating Sam. When Dean disagrees with him, Sam will often play the victim card to make Dean acquiescence. Looking back on the series I can't think of many times Sam didn't do exactly what he wanted regardless of what Dean said or thought. So while Dean may be bossy and try to control the situation, most times he's doesn't succeed. A good example is Bloody Mary. Sam wants to play bait. Dean says, No, I don't like it. Sam plays bait. The majority of the show is like that. The situation with Ben and Amelia. Dean told Sam, in or out but make a choice. Sam told Dean to dump Benny or he'd dump him. So its not like Sam doesn't attempt to control Dean. I've always seen Sam in control of the relationship. It doesn't sound like anything is changing in season 13. As in terms of hunting, Dean respects Sam as hunting partner. That goes all the way back The Benders. When asked to choose between Sam and Kathleen. He choose Sam because he knew that Sam had a much better chance at staying alive. If Dean wanted to protect Sam so badly why take him on dangerous hunts?

I agree. We saw in Bad Boys that Dean was thriving. So Sam isn't the be all and the end all for Dean. I have a head canon with Dean, and hunting. From Blood Lust In Bad Boys, John picks up a 16 year old Dean to go work a job. My head canon was that the job Dean told Gordon about. Because of his experiences at Sonny's and Dean knowing that being with his family is the most important thing, and that he probably didn't have many other options, that line of thinking from Dean would make sense.

There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic, but in many fan fics I've read, there is a tendency to have Dean only have a job because Bobby gave him one, rather than Dean doing it on his own. If Dean's circumstances were different, I could easily see Dean as an engineer. He's intelligent, and good with his hands. You have to have some basic knowledge of math and physics to make some of Dean's gadget. I could also see him in a profession that helps people, like a fire fighter, cop or solider. Since I think Dean makes a good mentor for young hunters, I could also see him as a teacher.

I never held going to college against Sam, and I don't think Dean was wrong to be hurt by it. People are complicated. Emotions aren't black and white. You can feel many different things at once. We know that John was angry when Sam left, and scared but he was also proud of him, as we saw during Phantom Traveler. I think Dean felt the same way. He was hurt that Sam left, but also proud. He told him that during Scarecrow. When Dean told Sam this, it was after Sam walked away and Dean didn't chase after him. So, I think it counts. Dean had no idea if Sam was coming back When Dean turned 18, Sam would have only been 14. I don't see Dean leaving a teen age Sam with John. He knows they don't get along, and Sam had already ran away once. I can see Dean being worried that without a buffer things would get worse. I don't think Sam was the sole reason Dean stayed, but I do think it was a big part of the equation, because it wasn't that Dean felt he was responsible for Sam, he literally was. John made Sam Dean's responsibility. If something happened to Sam, John held it against Dean. It still sticks out how Jensen played that scene is Dark Side of the Moon, and his reaction to "When Dad came home." So I can see it being a part of Dean's mindset that part of his that he didn't have a choice. We know there are times growing up Dean resented the responsibility. Family is everything to Dean. So I can see him being worried if he left something might happen. When Sam left, I think Dean felt it was too late for him to take another path so he stayed with hunting. Not denying, he likes it, and enjoys helping people, but we know that Dean had other dreams. He was pulled in a lot of directions. He had a brother he was responsible for, a father he was worried would get himself killed and also a part of him that liked the hunt. I don't think that makes Dean weak mentally. I think it makes him a person caught in an impossible situation.

Did Dean lie at the start of the season? I don't think there is conclusive proof one way or the other. I remember Kripke saying that Dean didn't remember initially but cracks started to form. I thought this was the way it played out. I always thought that Dean's memories didn't fully come back until his contacting ghost sickness brought it back. Then at the end of wishful Thinking, Dean did tell Sam he remembered but that he didn't want to talk about it. Considering what happens when Dean opens up, he really should just keep things to himself. Sam is supposed to be a smart guy, so I think there are times when "he didn't know excuse doesn't work." You shouldn't have to be told that nothing good could come from drinking demon blood, or just because someone doesn't immediately show signs that something might be wrong it's not lurking under the surface. How could anyone be alright coming back from Hell?

Unfortunately, the show does. It acts like Dean's time there was no big deal, and they have him call it Grace Land, say 6 weeks of isolation was far worse, it ignores that fact that Dean was even there. I disagree. Dean tried to be sympathetic to Sam. He listened to Sam about why he was with Ruby. When he found out they were sleeping together, his only reaction was TMI. He gave Ruby multiple chances. It was when she proved untrustworthy that Dean started to question. He even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying to him. To which Sam lied. I'm not sure what more Dean could have done here. Sam continued to lie and go behind Dean's back. As for Sam's showing empathy, he did that right up until Dean confessed. I don't think it was a coincidence that Dean went back to Ruby almost immediately after Dean admitted he broke in hell. Sam telling Dean he was stronger, smarter and Dean was holding him back, and throwing the words boo hoo at him. IMO, that's not empathy. It felt like Sam used that as an excuse to go back to Ruby. I know the nurse gets the most attention, and its ignored, but at the end of The Rapture, Sam ripped a womans throat because he was desperate for a hit of demon blood. He was getting out of control, that's what caused Dean to lock him up. Plus, Sam asked Dean to stop him if he went to far down that road. As for Sam leaving Dean, I guess for me it seems kind of cold to leave your brother his first night back after a traumatic experience. No, he didn't have to sit and stare at him, he could have researched, watched TV or read a book and be there in case Dean needed him. I don't recall Dean saying Sam needed a chaperone. (Not saying he didn't, I just don't recall what episode it happened in). it was Sam who interpreted Dean's actions as thinking he needed a chaperone. Offering to stay and help is not automatically thinking the person isn't capable. That's something Sam needs to learn. I've seen people say Dean needs to learn to ask for help, but I find this is one of Sam's biggest flaws. he thinks he has to do everything by himself or thinks only he can do it and more often than not ends up in trouble because of it. I don't blame Sam for Benny deciding to stay behind, but I do think Sam needs to stop thinking that because someone wants to help it doesn't automatically mean, they think you can't do it. If Sam accepted Dean's offer to help with the 2nd trial, Dean could have lead them out. But Sam declared "I have to do this solo" and then once again he needed someone to bail him out. Same with the going into the cage in s11. It was all about Sam being God's chosen and he didn't want to hear otherwise. He allowed Rowena to bully him, and once again people had to save him. When your hallcinating, sorry, you don't trust that person. Under any circumstances.

Put on, is probably the wrong word. It sticks out that Sam left Dean on his first night back to go be with Ruby. It's almost more like Sam resented Dean coming back and questioning his actions. He didn't like Dean pointing out that maybe what Sam was doing wasn't so great. Sam didn't want to give up that power, and he felt Dean was taking that way from him. That's the biggest problem with S4 and 5. Sam might have felt powerful but he really wasn't. Ruby only gave him the illusion of being in control when in reality she was pulling his strings like a puppet. She was far more controlling than Dean ever was. It felt like Sam didn't see that. He just put the blame on Dean for making him feel weak, when in reality it wasn't Dean, it was Sam allowing Ruby to manipulate him.

I wish i could like your post more than once. It was the exact same when Dean got out of hell. He spent 30 years under extreme torture and almost became the thing he hated. But when he gets back he's supposed to be over that in 5 minutes and how dare he not show more sympathy and understanding for poor Sammy who suffered so much topside. Everything would have been okay if Dean wasn't so bossy. (Even though Sam spent the season calling him weak, but okay). Sam also acted put up that Dean came back from hell. Its why I don't find Sam all that OOC is season 8. He acted pretty much the same way he did when Dean go out of hell. He just didn't have the demon blood as an excuse. The problem with season 8 is that we were told Sam didn't' look because he was Mature and made a decision not to continue the co-dependcy. If Sam did have some kind of mental break down, which the show did not do good job of making that clear, he could have easily called Garth and told him the situation and gave Garth his phones. It sounds more like Sam made a clear headed decision, Dean's dead, I'm moving on. If Sam's defining characteristic is supposed to be Empathy, one would think he might have some for his brother. That Sam might consider that after spending decades being tortured by demons, it might be triggering for Dean to be around one? Did Sam care about that when he insisted that Dean be BFF's with a demon? Also if Sam is supposed to be so close to Dean that he knows him better than anyone, I would think that Sam would understand why Dean was so hurt. That he has a fear of abandoment and to Dean that is what it would look like. Even if Sam wasn't capable of looking, Sam could have said, "Dean, im sorry I hurt you but I wasn't in the right frame of mind. I was afraid i would do something stupid. " If Dean is supposed to have empathy for Sam it needs to go both ways. As for the trials, I thought it was Dean that was supposed to be suicidal? That's what those ridiculous speeches told us. That Sam was going to show Dean the light. Then Dean proceeded to try and be there for Sam, literally cooking and bathing, and feeding him. He also told anyone that would listen how great Sam was. The minute Sam's arm lit up he forget every word he said. The more Dean tried to be there for him the more Sam resented it and saw it as babying. "You can barely do it with me, you think I need a chaperone." That's what bothers me more the most. Every time Dean objects to something Sam wants to do, Sam makes it about him, even if Dean has a valid objection. Sam just pulls the little brother card. Demon blood drinking, lying sneaking around. Nope, not Sam's choices, Dean was just bossy. Sam is too weak to stand because of trialburculosis, or can't tell reality from fanstasy. But nope, Dean just thinks Sam needs a chaperone. In those two cases you really do.

I don't know, he only said that if he knew, he would have suggested keeping the beards

I guess Jensen said that if he had known the direction the writers were going to take, he would have pitched keeping their hiatus beards to show their mental state. Since they were in San Diego, the majority of last week and had scruff i wonder if we might see this in episode 2. I also hope we see the Impala kind of dirty, dusty and neglected, since it's always been a metaphor for Dean and to help show what Jensen was talking about at comic con.

I could be mis-remembering, i read the article pretty quickly. Let me see if I can find it again. Here it is It doesn't directly say he goes on hunts, but it sounds like might go on some. http://www.thetvaddict.com/2017/07/23/supernatural-comic-con-press-room-the-cast-and-producers-tease-the-devils-son-alternate-realities-and-more/ The more i hear about this character the worse he sounds.

I also think Dean's issues after coming back from purgatory are also more complex. Dean's biggest fear is abandoned by those he loves. So for Dean to go missing and come back and find out no one literally did anything to find him had to trigger and confirm every fear he had that those around him were going to leave. It didn't help that Sam almost seemed to resent Dean coming back and kept telling Dean he was going to leave again. So at this point its not surprising that Dean wasn't in a caring and sharing mood. In that kind of situation, a person is going to go on the defensive. Kind of like push them away before they can leave again. Not to mention, Dean was suffering from PTSD from 360 combat. Dean lived in a black and white world. Kill or be killed. That kind of thinking doesn't go away over night, and to Dean the facts were simple. Benny was there for him. Sam wasn't. IMO, Benny only came between them because Sam put him there. Dean came back from purgatory. He fulfilled his promise to Benny, and then immediately went to find Sam. Sam was the one acting like he wished Dean had stayed gone, so I don't really fault Dean for not wanting to care and share when Sam seemed closed off. Then during blood brother Dean told Sam he was taking care of personal business. He went to help a friend. Then at the end of the ep instead of giving Dean a chance to explain, Sam just decided Benny was evil and had to go. Sam then proceeded to put an unstable man on Benny. When he thought Benny was guilty, Sam immediately made up his mind that he was. Despite the fact Dean had a reasonable explantion, Sam continued to deny Benny could be innocent. He forced Dean's hand. Because sorry, Sam at that point the truth hurts. Sam wasnt' exactly there for Dean when he got out of hell, and if he relied on Sam to get out of purgatory, he'd still be there. Then Sam left Dean unconcious on the floor handcuffed to a radiator. Dean was wrong to send the text, and there were things he probably could have handled better but they both played a part that lead to Dean telling Sam that Benny had never let him down.

The problem is that we know Sam and Dean will argue and Dean will give in, with the caveat "We get rid of him if things go wrong.' They did this last season with the British Men of Letter, and we, the audience knew this wasn't true because it was only episode 15 and the "maybe these guys aren't so great" revelation couldn't come until the end of the season. As as result Sam Dean just ended up looking stupid because there were flashing neon-lights that there was something wrong with this guys. But for plot reasons they had to "miss" them. So how to they avoid this plot hole with Jack, without making him a goody two-shoes? I read a spoiler that said Jack is going to go on hunts and he won't know how to control his powers and it kind of causes trouble. What if it causes the death of an innocent? Is that going to be acceptable to Sam? Will Dean be allowed to object? Since we know the Jack story line isn't going away anytime soon, how many times are Sam and Dean going to be made to ignore questionable behavior from Jack? So if he's just going to be good, again he's going to be a one note character, But if he's bad or shows signs of being bad, how do they keep making excuses for Sam and Dean to keep him around?

The problem with Jack is that he's going to be an exceedingly boring character if he's a goody-two-shoes. Also what do they do with him on hunts? The show keeps saying Cas can't hunt with the boys because he's too powerful, so what do you do with a character whose 10x as powerful?

From the spoiler thread: With Emma, Amazon's grow quickly, so Emma might have looked like a 16 year old but she was really about 3 days old. Her nurturing wasn't much. So its too soon to write Emma off. Plus, we saw that Emma was also the only one who hesitated to eat the meat at the first ceremony. She's half Winchester and Dean's a pretty good nurturer since he raised Sam to over him evil side. What's to say that with time, Dean might not have been able to change Emma's mind. Lets say a kid who neglected by both parents and ends up in a gang, and that gang becomes his mentors. Not a great influence in his teen years. He ends up trying to steal a car, gets caught and ends up in Juvy. Is it to late for that person? The odds may be stacked against him, but if he ends up with loving supportive foster parents he might be able to turn his life around. Dean was talking to Emma. She hadn't attacked him yet. Dean had a gun on her, and its possible she might have been luring him into a sense of security but we'll don't know one way or the other. Its possible Dean's words were having an effect. (Since we saw that doubt initially). Sam busting in changed the whole dynamic of the scene. If you have a negotiator trying to talk someone into letting a hostage go, and suddenly a swat team burst in the hostage taker could get spooked and fire out of reflex. It's possible that Emma felt threatened by Sam and that increased threat caused her to react faster than she normally would have. As Emma kept saying, "I have to" Not "I want to" I think there is a difference there. I think you can make a strong argument for either scenario, but I disagree that Emma is a lost cause.

Will respond in the All seasons thread

Jensen talks about having to do some stunt driving with Baby that he's never had to do before. It reminded me of the pictures Kevin Parks (Assistant Director) posted during the first couple of days of filming.

I think it was an ep that was recently filmed. I'll post why in the spoiler thread.

I'm over Gabriel too. One character I'd really like to see come back is Hendrikson. He was the first death I really disliked. I thought he would have made a great hunter in training and i really liked his relationship with Dean. I

Isn't Michaal in Lucifer's cage? I can't see Cas being sent to the cage after death. I figure Cas is either in The Veil or The Empty. I really hope we see death again. I think Julian is going to be a Toronto Con maybe someone can ask him to give hints.

Yes, it is a logical conclusion but not on this show, and that is the context, I was talking abou.. It would be a logical conclusion that killing Death would have some kind of consequence but nope nothing. Death had no more significance than a Windego. Logic doesn't always apply on this show. Even though it should be a forgone conclusion, its not something you can take for granted on this show given how often Dean story lines have been dropped or handed off to other characters. So maybe its wishful thinking on his part, but its not a certainty and it almost sounded like Jensen knew something. That was the point I was trying to make.