Ellaria

Saying that it’s “very very clear” is not quite true. That scene is subject to interpretation. I’ve rewatched it and don’t think that it is encouragement to take out Bolsa. Instead, I agree with your statement that Mike admires Nacho’s last stand. No one could have predicted with any certainty how that standoff would unfold. I interpret “do it” as Mike telling Nacho to go out on his terms, to take control of the situation as best he can in that moment. When? And what options should have been considered?

I believe that grief is one possible explanation along with rage and anger. As mentioned above, it may not be grief over the loss of a person. Grief can be a reaction to loss of different kinds: a way of life, a loss of possibility/hope. Kim's motivations are complex and not necessarily triggered by one event or one person. Right now, we don't have an explanation for what drives Kim's soul. I'm sure that we will learn more but it may never be truly satisfying.

Yes - I agree. She is on a different path now and it’s of her own choosing. She isn’t doing it to help Jimmy. She is doing it for Kim. While I believe that there is much in Kim’s background that we don’t know, I am still not fully onboard with her “bottomless hatred of Howard.” I’m sure that we will see reasons for it and I’m sure that we will understand why Gilligan/Gould waited until the final hours to reveal it. However, it is entirely possible that Kim’s motivations are not that different from those of Walter White. She starts with a sense of inferiority to people like Howard and their sense of privilege as well as an initial desire to protect someone she loves. Like Walter, I think that it will end with Kim admitting that she “did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really alive.” Kim’s desire to ruin Howard is less about Howard himself and more about Kim.

Well said!! We don't understand much of Kim's motivations because it is likely that she doesn't...not fully, anyway. Rage, grief, anger need an outlet and perhaps she found that in Jimmy/Saul and the cartel connections. IMO, Kim achieved a certain satisfaction in her contact with Lalo, both in the prison and in the standoff in the apartment. She understands the danger involved (the bullet hole in the coffee mug) and she certainly feared for JImmy's life when he was lost in the desert. However, she also knows that she convinced Lalo to walk away, not Jimmy. Does she believe that she is smarter than everyone else? Possibly. She seems confident that they can pull off this plan of destruction on Howard. How far does this level of confidence take her? Maybe she is ready to become a "criminal" lawyer, too.

Agree completely. Nacho’s choice was to save his dad. I think - I hope - that we are done with Manuel. While Hector, Gus and the rest are a vindictive bunch, they have much bigger problems right now. “Noble” is a wonderful way to describe Nacho and a credit to MM’s performance. I think so, too. She will betray him and that completely drives him to Saul. In Jimmy’s eyes, Kim keeps him tethered to decency. Sure - they’ve pulled their scams and manipulated people to get what they wanted. Neither of them are saints. IMO, Jimmy will not cross certain lines if he thinks it will hurt Kim. I no longer believe that Kim currently feels the same way. She snarled when she gave him the choice of cartel lawyer or rat. She was shrouded in darkness. She is on a different path now. Yes, those lines were throwaways. However, I don’t think that they are ambiguous. I think that we should not spend time trying to read into them. As stated, Gilligan knows what he wrote and knows that we are trying to interpret it. They will provide an explanation.

Shocking and heartbreaking but not unexpected. Nacho was clearly running out of options. I hate losing him so early in the final unfolding of this story but I’m glad that he was able to go out on his terms. Kim’s question to Jimmy about the choice of being a cartel lawyer or a rat seems ominous. Maybe it is an indication of the choice that she will eventually make. I loathe Hector Salamanca. So glad that Nacho admitted to putting him in that chair. Nancho is an unforgettable character, thanks to Michael Mando.

I have no idea of what is coming. I can’t even make semi-educated guesses. Having said that… Much of current speculation is hanging on Saul’s mention of Nacho (Ignacio) and Lalo in S2E8 of BB when Walt and Jesse have him at gunpoint in the desert. That scene is approximately 3-4 years from where events currently are in BCS. I think it’s unlikely that both Nacho and Lalo are alive 3-4 years from the present based on the current state of things. However, if either or both are alive, then the story feels like it hasn’t progressed much. Kim…sigh…whatever happens won’t be good. I don’t believe that she is in Saul’s life in BB. He seems to be a darker character than the current version. Something had to drive him there…something caused him to become the version of Saul that has golden toilets. It’s not happenstance. The explanation that I prefer right now - having seen only two episodes in this season - is that Kim betrays him. His love for her is the one thing that grounds him. Jimmy is nearly fully consumed by Saul in BB. The only hope is the stopper from the tequila bottle.

Well said! I love this interpretation. And this is what I am struggling with right now. I love what she did to the Kettlemans, especially to Betsy. She tells herself - and Jimmy - that she is helping those that get lost and misrepresented in our legal system. However, I suspect that there is something darker that is driving Kim right now. When does "helping the little guy" turn into a vengeance against the system itself and a desire to win? That's a good guess. And if so, maybe it is Kim that eventually gets caught rather then Jimmy.

Yes. I know that. The confusion is because we never saw him do that. Instead, we saw the Federales and the cousins find the burned body. Clearly, there was a time gap between when Lalo’s house was getting the CSI treatment and when he brought back the burned body. While this show likes its viewers to be able to think independently, this was a bit unclear on an initial viewing.

Mateo’s body is believed to be the badly burned body found inside of Lalo’s house. That’s why Lalo had the discussion with Sylvia (?) about her husband’s teeth.

As far as the dental records, it seems that some sort of “switcheroo” was pulled off so that Mateo(?) the goat farmer had the same records as Lalo. However, I’m less concerned about what happened with the records than I am with the killing of the goat farmer couple. We never saw their bodies and never saw Lalo move the dead body back to his house. For a show that is so precise with its details, the timeline is confusing me.

I don’t know if she is dead. I think it means that she is no longer in his life…reason unknown at this point. Rather, I think it is a sign that Saul still remembers his life with her (and their scams) fondly. Saul may not have completely consumed Jimmy.

Still processing these two brilliant episodes. I’m sure that I will need to watch a 2nd time. The opening scene of Saul’s home was unexpected in many ways. Instead of checking in with Gene in B/W, we got a vividly-colored scene of Saul’s home and possessions. I underestimated his success once he committed to being a “criminal” lawyer because the excess was shocking. And that scene highlighted how far he still is from being the full-on Saul that we see in BB. I’m curious and nervous to see the sequence of events that eventually drives him to that point. I have a love/hate relationship with Lalo. He adds energy to every scene but it’s never in a good way. Those poor goat farmers… I’m worried for Nacho. I’m concerned about Kim. Gus was a much more interesting character in BB probably because we knew much less about him. I loathe Hector Salamanca. As always, the cinematography is stunning and unique. It is a visually beautiful show.

And then, after they washed his hair, it seemed like he put the same hat back on his head. Whatever filth was in his hair originally was also in that hat...which is now sitting on clean hair. Ick! Also, his apology didn't seem sincere. At the very least, I hope that his ex-girlfriend believed it to be. The episode with Angel was one of the best ones that they have done in any season. She was lovely. I enjoyed most of the other episodes as well. There were a few remarkable people - Jamie, Jereka, Chris - doing amazing work, especially during a pandemic. Sarah's episode was entertaining but, by the end of it, I got the impression that she didn't care for either Bobby's renovations or Tan's style choices. Other than that particular shot (not complaining either), I felt that Antoni contributed less to some of these episodes than he has in past seasons. Overall, it was a good season. The "no masks" on-air was curious. Have to believe that everyone was tested regularly (daily?) and that the crew was always wearing masks.

There are a number of articles discussing this, referencing a poem by John Berryman titled "Dream Song 29." The titles of all three season finales have come from this poem. I won't offer my interpretation since poetry is best left to the individual to analyze and decipher. Here is an article from 2019 when Jesse Armstrong is asked specifically about that poem: https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/succession-season-2-finale-jesse-armstrong.html

Agree! And Logan will totally betray Tom in the future. Kendall, Shiv and Roman have all had "their turn" being Logan's favored one. S4 is Tom's turn and it will not end well.

Not really understanding your point here so perhaps I should better explain myself. I'm also not referencing the donut scene. I believe that Tom made the decision to betray her right after that phone call. IMO, his decision was due, in part, because of everything that had gone on before and how he felt marginalized in every aspect of his life with her. I don't think that Tom was surprised when Shiv dismissed his question asking "what about me." He basically asked the same question twice and received a similar answer both times. Tom has been evaluating his situation since last season. He finally saw an opportunity and seized it.

I don't think that he was in Logan's pocket at that point. Tom isn't stupid. He can be an astute observer when he takes off his blinders, particularly about his wife. It is not unlikely that he noticed early on that Logan didn't lose. He also knew that his wife and his brothers-in-law didn't care whether he went to jail, etc. In the S2 finale, we see that Tom wants to fight back (against being the blood sacrifice, threesomes, open marriage) but has no leverage. It is not impossible to think that he was waiting for the opportunity to make a move. Logan thanks him for volunteering to go to prison. He assists Logan in the men's room (although Logan may not remember it). None of that is indicative that they were already working together, IMO. Instead, it indicates that Tom watches and understands how this family operates. His line to Kendall that "I've never seen Logan get f***ed" tells you all you need to know about Tom's instinct for survival. Shiv didn't question Tom before because, in her eyes, he didn't matter. She underestimated him - and disregarded him - and that is a huge factor in why he betrayed her. While I don't believe that Tom was working for Logan the entire time, the fact that Shiv may not have ever considered that he would betray her tells us why he did. What would Tom have done if, during the call from Shiv in the car, he had been promised a position of power and influence in the company? Would he still have alerted Logan?

Just my opinion, of course, but I don't think that Logan was at all worried about Caroline changing her mind again. I think it is pretty clear that she priortizes her interests over anyone else's. The purpose of Tom's appearance at Logan's "war room" and the pat on the back was to indicate that Tom gave him the heads up. It may not matter that Logan could have changed that divorce agreement at any time. What matters is that Logan wanted to throw it in his kids' faces right then and there not weeks or months later. Logan was going in for the kill. It isn't so much "when" he did it as "how" he did it.

Yes to all of this. When he made the deal, his first thought was (most likely) not that his kids would unite against him. However, he knew how to deal with that possibility - divide them and/or change the divorce agreement. Tom provided the heads up that the kids were coming and Logan renegotiated with Caroline. Then, when the kids arrive, he first tries to divide them with no success. He then gets an exasperated Caroline back on the phone to reveal that they changed the divorce agreement. Right! The decision with Mattson was made after he sent Roman home. He had no intention of involving his children in this decision. That's interesting to consider. Yes - didn't Caroline say that she didn't want to talk about further tonight (paraphrasing)? They had just finalized the change to the agreement when the kids walked in. Logan knew what was coming because Tom alerted him and he got in touch with Caroline. Then Tom shows up and Logan smiles at him and pats him on the back. He didn't leave it up to chance. He could change the divorce agreement at any time as long as Caroline went along with it. Judging by the events of the weekend, Caroline would always make time to talk with Logan if it meant that Logan would use his influence to help Peter. It was always transactional for Caroline. She agreed to exclude Kendall from wedding events to please Logan so he would help Peter.

Tom is fascinating AND hard to read. He is smart and ambitious and, as we now know, ruthless. The Roy siblings sidelined him for too long and underestimated him. It should be no surprise that he made the killer move that he did last night. The signs were there. But somehow I was surprised. We will see a different version of Tom in S4. Can't wait to see his reaction when he realizes that Shiv is aware of his betrayal. That's not Connor's game. Connor wants to be wanted, to be included but he isn't about making big moves. I like WilCon, too. It's about as close to normal as this show gets.

The cinematography was stunning. The beauty of their surroundings was a stark contrast against the desires of these selfish people who seem to care about nothing but blind ambition. I agree about the use of light. Kendall's face actually changed as he gained strength and support from his siblings. Having visited Tuscany once, I agree that it is amazing. Yes, Marcia cared about getting what she wanted. With that done, she is content. Marcia has no other aspirations. And that's what is so fascinating about this show, IMO. Logan is still the soulless master that cares for nothing but winning. Everyone else is in his orbit is trying to beat him or curry favor. Logan's vulnerability is his mortality. Despite what he may believe, he isn't going to live forever. While my sympathy for these characters changes from episode to episode, it is not hard to see how deeply damaged they are. None of them are good people but they are incredibly interesting to watch.

Brilliant! I’m still in shock. This was not what I was expecting and I’m thrilled by that. Roman finally standing up to his father. Shiv and Roman listening to Kendall’s confession. Last week, I wouldn’t have let any of the Roy kids run a lemonade stand. I was done with Shiv and Roman. Now I actually feel badly for them even though they don’t deserve it. That’s how this that show plays with my head. Tom making his move and finally using the leverage that he had. Of course, he brings Greg because, in a twisted way, Greg is his only friend and confidante. Tom showing us what we probably already suspected: he is as devious as the rest of them. The acting…give them all of the awards now. Kieran Culkin, in particular, gave us a master class in acting in this episode.

Agree. Greg at Caroline's wedding doesn't seem strange to me. Logan most likely did send a list. Since Logan's other demands - like keeping Kendall separate from him - were met, Greg's inclusion doesn't seem unusual. Sandi and Stewy would certainly need to be advised about the change from takeover to merger. I'm skeptical if this deal gets done...at least this season. I question a lot about Matsson. He is eccentric and a bit of a wild card. (Alexander Skarsgard seems to be having fun with the role.) I also agree that Roman's "read" on him is not to be trusted. This isn't going to go as planned.

Interesting analysis of the last scene in Episode 8 and what it can mean going forward. https://www.vox.com/culture/2021/12/7/22822667/succession-episode-8-season-3-chiantishire-kendall-recap-dead