SueB

Actually, I think it's a good sign if you kids are still blowing out their knees in their pants. Means they are active. So many kids are not these days. So YAY! for damaged clothes -- it's a kid thing to do.

Got to rewatch this morning...really was an excellent episode from my POV. Here's data I picked up or confirmed (IMO, of course) throughout the episode: Everything Cain did was about Dean: Dean was right, the proto-genecide was on him AND Crowley. They kicked over that bee-hive and out swarmed blood-thirsty Cain. The reason the title The Executioner's Song was important was IMO because this was Cain trying to force Dean to kill him. Cain is trying to go out in his wacked-up version of noble. Dean clearly didn't want to -- even after the mass murders. And not just because he was afraid of the effect of killing a powerful being like Cain would have on himself. He FELT BAD for Cain. But Cain's mission there was to save Dean. JUST like the foreshadowing in the teaser. Where he said he was there to punish and save the serial killer. And he knew Dean would eventually catch up with him. He even admitted he didn't kill Cas so as to draw him in. I would suggest that after killing off demons, Cain started going after his own bloodline to 1) satisfy the Mark, and 2) force Dean to try and kill him. Sam expressing doubt was done to make it clear how slam-dunk of a decision this was for Dean. And Cain knew that he had to leave Dean no choice. Even when Dean begged at the end, Cain made it clear that he either kill him or Cain would kill more people. Really, I think Cain wanted to die. But only if he could somehow save Dean in the process (more later) I don't know if he did or not. The not-fight fight. Cain was clearly playing with Dean and Dean was holding back. Cain wanted to see if Dean would go Stabby McStabberson. Relapse or Remission. Farawayeyes on WFB has liken the Mark to a terminal illness in previous episodes. The use of relapse or remission sure seems to fit that analogy. While I think Dean was terrified of going beserk when he killed Cain, his connection to Cain's dilemma was a huge factor. As soon as the fight started, I could tell Dean wasn't trying hard enough. He's been far more effective/efficient in the past. And what did it take to get Dean to FINALLY go uber-hunter? Telling him he'd have to kill Sammy. I'm 100% positive Cain knew that was the trigger. And it wasn't Cain killing Sam, it was Dean killing Sam. That's just like waving a red flag under Dean's nose -- worse than the Mark/Blade's need. I don't think Cain expected to lose the arm, he just expected to get Dean to finally start to REALLY fight. And once he lost the arm, Cain GOT what he wanted. Dean would kill him now. Yes, Cain f*cked his mind up pretty badly by coming up with that "life in reverse" story. It may be the truth. Or maybe it's just Cain's way of motivating Dean and finding salvation. Dean would rather take on the effect of killing Cain then leave Cain alive. And Dean is terrified of killing Sam. Somehow those two warring topics, and Dean's ability to not kill Sam, is what's going to save him (I think). Cas on a mission. Well Cas has gotten over torture issues. Of course it was a demon, but he was not remotely remorseful about killing the dude. I'm not sure the demon would have blabbed about his run-in with Cas to Crowley, so my hope is that Cas new the meatsuit was dead. Otherwise...brrrrr. And then Dean gives him the FREAKING BLADE. Why Dean Why? Whoever has the Blade is a target if Dean loses his shit. At least Crowley can apparate (HP crossover!). Did Dean give it to him because he trusts Cas more or because he thinks he might hesitate to kill Cas. Notice he wouldn't give it to Sam. That would be Sam in the line of fire if Dean got Blade-hungry. The end of Growley and Squirrel. For real. To me Crowley's affection for the Winchesters is that they generally DO keep their word. And I think Dean knows this. Which is why Dean made sure Crowley knew that Dean had lied to him twice. "I never lied Dean, that's important, that's fundamental" (Crowley to Dean in "Do You Believe in Miracles). Crowley's Mommy-abandonment issues are tied up in her betrayal. The Winchesters are loyal to a fault. And Dean just broke that code. Did he do it because he wants Crowley out of his life completely? Probably. But did he do Crowley a favor by pushing him away (which is what he did)? I think maybe yes. Going back to Cain's taunting ... he's taken Crowley "off the board" potentially. On the one hand Dean should want to kill Crowley just for existing. OTOH, Crowley did apparently help him control his bloodlust immediately after transformation. And he did get the blade and bring it to Dean. If Crowley has the blade, Dean would kill him in a heartbeat to get it from him. Fergus & his Mum. I was so pleased that he called her on the blatant manipulation in a long con. But she KNOWS him well enough that she offered an interesting diversion -- Mother/Son revenge murder plot. Sounds like a good time Saturday night for Crowley. And just when they were getting along, he goes running off. Boy is she pissed. Yes, it's a manipulation, but those daggers she was throwing at the end were spot on. And he knows it. Bobo Berens (the writer) said the original wording was "Collosal Pussy!" but they couldn't use the "P" word so they used "numbnuts". I think it was as close to saying he has a useless manhood as they could come up with. She then followed it up with "flop ass up" and 'you're their bitch". For a guy who sold his soul for 3 inches of willy, maybe she knows how to really dig. It's not about sexuality, BTW, it's about power. And SPN once again unfortunately equates sexual dominance with desired power. Bleech. But kinda right for Crowley's personality. In short, I agree with others, he's going to come back harsh after this. Any affection he had for the Winchesters is gone or a weakness in his mind now. Cain's Death: On second watch I heard the tell-tale roll of thunder when the blade struck. They should have made the cosmic signs much larger for such a BIG death. But I think they meant for us to believe Cain is dead. I will say that if they change their mind later, they can. But I also see how they could have thought killing Cain, who had a weird sympathy to him, was not something they wanted us to see. They wanted it more left to our imagination. Again, I think the door is open, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's dead dead. Bits & Bobs: - When Dean collapsed in Sammy's arms, it was VERY reminiscent of when he died at the end of S9. I think that was on purpose. Maybe Dean just died a bit. - Dean has cuts and bruises, if he was a demon, those would have healed. I think he's still physically human...on the edge maybe...but still human at this moment. - Dean saying he was scared. HOLY SHIT. That was big. This has really been the season of character growth for Dean. He's so OPEN with Sam, it just stuns me. Yes he was scared in S3, but this felt more raw. Zero bravado. - Sam's face at the end. He KNOWS. I'm glad he knows. Dean is not okay. And Dean said "Maybe" but he wasn't offering false assurances to his little brother. This is freaking Sam out. He's used to Dean's assurances and those are gone. I think their entire relationship this year has led to Dean letting go of protecting Sam from bad news. I still think he won't ever kill Sam, but he sure has taken a major step by removing all the pretense. - I think Cas IS weakening. That was barely a puff of wind in Cain's face. *sigh* I think that'll end up a S11 story vice resolved in S10. In short, I loved this episode. I wish they had made Cain's death more obvious and with louder thunder, but I thought it was well done.

I'm in mourning over the bromance. (Hey, stop judging me!) I was so thrilled to see Sam & Dean, Cas, & Crowley. Of COURSE when the four work together they could take Cain down. Seriously, they all had a role. And the brothers just dismissed Crowley way to easily. But somehow, Dean telling Crowley that he lied? It wasn't necessary and it wasn't done with malice. It was almost as if he was trying to make Crowley see -- stay away from them. I'm terrified over the instructions Cain gave Dean: - Crowely - Cas - Sam I think Cain was actually giving Dean the answer. I believe he THINKS that's the answer and that he did come just to see Dean. I also think he went down too easy. First, I think Cain toyed with Dean. And I agreed, Dean was holding back trying to save himself. I thought the "favor" was to kill Dean and turn him demon. After Dean took his arm, however, I think Cain changed his mind. I think Cain let Dean kill him. He just knelt there and took the blow. It was definitely the First Blade Dean was striking with, but it looked more like a blow right to where the spinal cord meets the skull. That's a specific kind of execution but I can't remember what it is called. My first instinct is "no body, no death", but it could go either way. Abbadon didn't need to be chopped up after the blade took her. Cain.. I just don't know. The Executioner's Song. I'm really going to have to think on that title. It was a very complex episode but fantastic.

+ Bobby -- Rufus -- Jo Jo, I adored you and your little miss sassypants attitude. I loved your relationship with Dean and how true you were to yourself. I hope you found your way to Harvelle's and are kicking butt at poker and darts while listening to REO Speedwagon. #ICan'tFightThisFeeling 25 - Bobby 24 - Rufus 23 - Ellen Salted and Burned: Samuel Christian Campbell Garth Gwen Campbell John Mary Ash Jo

I have a completely OFF TOPIC random rant. I just a picture of someone in the TV industry interviewing a star. Normal, nice picture. She's a nice person. And then I noticed her jeans. And they are artfully torn with what I presume is an artful bleach spot. I bet those jeans are over $200. And I'm thinking...why? My jeans got like that on accident throughout my life. Those are the jeans that I wear for painting and change out of before going to the grocery story. Why are those jeans still a thing? Didn't that trend come and go a gazillion years ago? ** this old lady moment brought to you by the letter W...for Wasting Time because it's not 9pm and I'm just ranting**

This is an outstanding list. I'm going to tweet to Christos Gage (current Buffy comic writer) that spike needs to fall down a well. That's really sad about the Timmy actor.

I think we need to see this list. For science. Perhaps move it to the Small Talk thread as it's wildly unrelated?

Raise your hand if you sang "John and Mary, husband and wife..." when seeing them voted off....just sayin' Rufus -- (OUCH) Jo -- Ash -- 26 - Ellen 23 - Rufus 23 - Bobby 10 - Jo 07 - Ash Salted and Burned: Samuel Christian Campbell Garth Gwen Campbell John Mary

I used to spot check GH in college and AMC. DOOL started on and off again towards the end of college. It's the only one I spot check from time to time. And yes, really, between wikipedia and watching two or three episodes, it's pretty easy to follow the story lines.

Pardon me for a DOOL (Days of Our Lives) rant. Marlena! You just lied to Uncle Bobby! She so goes back to John Black. As for Eric (Jensen's character)... Well let's just say he's a good guy (not NIce Guy trope) who gets chewed up and spit out three or four times.

John -- Mary -- Rufus -- 25 - Ellen 23 - Bobby 21 - Rufus 15 - Ash 13 - Jo 05 - John 05 - Mary Salted and Burned: Samuel Christian Campbell Garth Gwen Campbell

Indeed. I thought it appropriate for the day.

Shock and horror at what they see (note image brightened for better observation):

Do you believe in Miracles?

TRUTH. Best Hunter? I'd put Bobby. Brilliant? Ash. Ellen is just NEEDED. I loved Jo. I wanna hang with Rufus. Mary was a BadAss. And John? Well, he has a lot to answer for, then again, he did raise the two best hunters on the planet in the history of forever. *sigh* I'm going to be a bit ruthless this round. -- John -- Ash -- Mary 25 - Ellen 23 - Rufus 23 - Bobby 19 - Ash 13 - Jo 09 - Mary 09 - John Salted and Burned: Samuel Christian Campbell Garth Gwen Campbell

This is my take as well. Dean said to Sam, regarding Kevin's death, "I'll burn for that.". To me that was a huge telling point. In S1 Dean helped perform and exorcism but didn't really believe in a specific afterlife concept. In S2 he found out his Dad was tormented in Hell and Dean made a deal to go there. But I think he didn't really get Hell (nor could anyone, really) until he WENT there. And then, boy-howdy, Dean got a face-full of Hell. In S4 he was clued into "Yes, there apparently is also a God, Angels and Lucifer" based on unambiguous proof. It was a hard concept to wrap his head around but when he and Sam died in S5 and went to Heaven, I think Dean had some hope of drinking in Harvelles again someday. Dean went pretty suicidal in S7 but his self-loathing never reached the level it did in S9 Road Trip. So, IMO, taking on the MoC was not remotely about redemption or Sam or anything else. Dean was 100% convinced there was no coming back -- especially from Kevin. I think he held out hope to be around Sam again, but he felt he was destined for Hell. And it all just hurt so damned much he was desperate for ANY mission to focus on. Which is why he went along with the manipulation Crowley offered. I don't think he knew it was a manipulation until he saw Crowley's fake fear at Cain's house. But he pressed on. He just wanted to "even the odds" a bit, given he felt he'd made things worse. In 9.2 he said EVERY demon possession was on "him" because he stopped Sam from completing the trials. That's a Dean Winchester class guilt trip but I see his logic. So...since he lost Gadreel's trail and couldn't easily find payback for Kevin, knocking off Abbadon seemed like a good distraction. Which Crowley preyed upon. And Crowley, in Crowley's mind, thinks he did Dean a favor. I think in Sharp Teeth Sam did not appreciate Dean's self destruction -- at all. Yes Dean told him about the Mark of Cain but there were no obvious effects for Sam to see. Dean was not guzzling down whiskey in front of Sam and he wasn't all that ruthless in the kills yet. Instead, I think Sam and Dean both agreed that hunting together "cut the crappiness in half". I think Dean came back thinking Sam would eventually come around. He didn't really believe the we're not brother's thing until Sam said he wouldn't save him under the same circumstances in The Purge. I believe Sam was focused on individual agency and the specific circumstances. I think Dean heard "Sam doesn't love me anymore" (well not those exact words...but that sentiment). That was a real gutshot to Dean. Dean pulled one all-nighter at the start of The Purge. Maybe, MAYBE, he thought Sam would notice he's hurting and cut him some slack. But honestly, with the "low-dose steroid" effect of the MoC kicking in after his kills in Sharp Teeth, I think it was just Dean staying up all night. It's been clear in the past that Dean AND Sam have done this before. Yes he had a bottle of whiskey with him, but he also had found a case. So, IMO, that single all-nighter before the final discussion in The Purge was regular bush-league Winchester angst. The fight in The Purge is what put Dean on notice that he may have completely lost Sam for forever. When Sam stuck to his guns after Kevin's advice, I think Dean got angry at everything and just shut down. We saw he hid his drinking from Sam in Mother's Little Helper and IMO it wasn't until Blade Runner when Sam saw Dean go primal that Sam picked up on how dangerous the Blade was. And his concern ratched up tremendously when he saw Dean go Stabby McStabberson with Abbadon. But neither of those moments, IMO, were remotely intended by Dean to get Sam to forgive him. Bottom line: I think the decision to get back together was to end solo hunting (it's unsafe, they are better hunters together, split the crappiness). I think Dean, stung by the argument in The Purge, tried to take whatever relationship he could have with Sam but I don't think he was looking for forgiveness. Dean said his piece in The Purge -- and I think he still believed it when he died -- he'd save Sam again. I think he'd act differently about Kevin but he didn't say that to Sam. I think he knows keeping it to himself was a mistake. I think they STILL haven't resolved between the two of them (at least not onscreen), that the issue was more about the lying than the heat of the moment decision (IMO).

hee.

I think Sam and Dean are (per Carver) trying out different solutions. As Carver put it, throwing spaghetti on a wall and seeing what sticks.The rough form of it was: - just survive and get better (first half of the season) - get rid of the Mark using their traditional SPN methods: get someone of power (Metatron) to tell them what to do and follow then maze to get the cheese. - maybe learn to control it while still searching other options: this went thru the egg white omlette phase - keep working while still searching - and now Dean is back to "day by day". He's going to presume this is who he is and give up hope for a cure. Sam's not on board (clearly), but I think this is another glop of spaghetti at the wall There may be drugs.... j/k Seriously, tho, Adam Glass, Bobo Berens, and Robbie Thompson have been pretty accessible regarding their writing process. It seems there are multiple stages and multiple levels Season Macro Level: - Carver/Singer set the big picture for the season with some specific beats for the first half of the year. Later I think they set some more big beats but I don't know if it's at the start of the year - The year's stucture is pretty set now: First 3 episodes wrap up up the previous season's cliffhanger. The mid-season finale and return are mytharc oriented. They revisit the mytharc a couple of times in the back half and the last two or three episodes gear up for the finale. In between is MOTW with character growth to get them to the overall theme of the year. - Writers are assigned episode numbers based on their strengths. Buckner/Lemming get a lot of mytharc. Bobo Berens seems to have drawn a few of those as well. Carver does the start and finish. Some big picture ideas and concepts are thrown out and writer get assigned either based on that or just a rotation. Episode Level - Writer provide first pitch to Carver/Singer- it may or maynot be a storyboard -- not clear on this - They go into a detailed outline stage -- I think it goes thru a murderboard process involving many writers and approved by Carver/Singer - Once the detailed outline is approved, they crank out the script on a deadline - Much editing ensues - It goes up for production, more realism of production and editing ensues -- the director is involved at this stage I believe, and location/tech scouting occurs - Prior to filming, J2 will make suggestions if they really have issues, the production crew start their adds (background bits, costuming bits, etc..) - During filming J2 adhoc a bit, director tries out a ton of options and sets the tone of the episode based on script, talking with Carver/Singer, his vision, and just about anyone else who provides him an input - In editing, the director makes a cut of the episode - Then the official editors come and adjust - Final version approved by TPTB (I believe) - SFX and music and ...DONE Note: There's probably 82 steps I missed. This is just my rough understanding. My point: it's not just a single writer, and hits and misses can come from a ton of inputs. So... in the creation of one episode -

++ Ellen -- Mary -- Gwen Campbell 25 - Ellen 21 - Rufus 21 - Bobby 19 - Jo 19 - Ash 15 - Mary 15 - John 01 - Gwen Campbell Salted and Burned: Samuel Christian Campbell Garth

EXPECTATION WARNING! I expect the episode to be awesome, but not necessarily awesome with anything I speculate apriori. I don't know if he'd go after his personal entire FAMILY line, but SOMETHING is connecting the victims I suspect. And "personal" motivation seems likely. Extended trailer: real SPOILERS be here... https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/566289764634984449 So Cas can't do it, it's Dean's turn. And I'm guessing Crowley cooperates because HE can't kill Cain -- just like he couldn't kill Abbadon.

Oh, okay. Well in that case, it's "Cabin In the Woods" that got me to this line of thinking. First, though, let me say that you are correct that "Hookman" had many of these tropes, I think they played that episode "straight". It was a pure urban legend Supernatural episode. In S10, they are looking for a fresh way to do many of these MOTW episodes. Combine all the tropes into the first half of this episode, adding the OTT death moments, and using parallels with Dean and Sam...that's less straightforward. It could have simply been lazy writing, but the evidence of the parallels, combination of blatant trope rip-offs, and tone shift in the second half is what made me think: "this is ON PURPOSE". Much more than Hookman. Hookman was straight-up horror tropes on TV not played for laughs. There's an element of macabre humor in the first three deaths that wasn't there in Hookman IMO. So, feeling something was "off", I watched a second time to figure out what the hell they were doing. Note: If I hadn't seen The Cabin in the Woods. I may not have gone down this line of reasoning. Once I compared it to the first half of Cabin in the Woods...it just seemed paint-by-numbers following Whedon's playbook of homage/parody. SPOILERS FOR CABIN IN THE WOODS -- if you didn't see it, stop reading. Whedon made Cabin in the Woods an intentional homage to horror movies. And it's VERY DARK HUMOR. And the parallels for Halt and Catch Fire is what drew me: - While Cabin in the Woods had five college friends going thru the traditional horror tropes, Marty-the-goof is sort of outside the "rules" of the horror trope. Yes, he plays the goof but sees everything coming, and he also continues with the "good girl" when the movie makes it's MASSIVE left turn into a conspiracy-plot-using-horror-tropes-deaths-to-appease-angry-gods - We've had individual cliche characters given a send-up on the show before, but this particular gag went on for the first half of the episode. They were REALLY dedicated to the concept. And it involved ALL the kids, each filling a trope. In Cabin in the Woods we had the jock who dies, the #slut who dies (I think it was post sex -- naturally), the asshole who dies, and the good girl who lives. They did a shit-ton of tropey things along the way as they were obviously staying in a "MURDER-CABIN IN THE WOODS" in the Whedon film. Everything about that Cabin said "don't go in there". Yeesh. Now for Supernatural, we don't see it coming as much with the location and individual deaths the first time through, but the texting and murder scene pulls it all together for me. - When we get the reveal on how they were all involved with the death of the one guy, I felt like I was watching that Geico commercial about bad decisions...because it was so obviously the BAD DECISION MOMENT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrrw0wNLc2g - So...on second watch, now knowing this all stems from "bad decision" horror trope, I watched how each member of the "bad decision" gang acted and was killed. - Truck guy being an asshole seemed more obvious second time around. The smash into the "Supernatural" title also peaked my interest. I thought "maybe it's more than just 'cool SFX'. - The Blonde #slut (oh how I hate this trope), was my first real clue on 'this is a horror movie'. Now it was obvious, we just killed "asshole/possibly jock guy." But then came the Blonde. It's important for me to note that even the Blonde gal's death in the preview seemed "off". I couldn't pin down as I watched the first time why I felt I was missing something but I knew I was. Armed with the knowledge that this all stemmed from "Bad Decision" moment, the use of the standard trope became painfully obvious. So painful, in fact, that I realized that the way they were filming it was a bit "off" and that what bothered me about the preview and gave me a weird "vibe" in the first place. We've had individual gruesome deaths before, but (as mentioned above), the sleeping with the TA, the duck-face selfie, the hot pink computer, and CGI power cord, the music, and (as pointed out), the tongue sticking out death visage. It was the most OTT characterization of all of them. With the most cliched of all the deaths. I generally mentally gloss over the gross stuff. But it was her death where I saw macabre humor. And I thought "ahh, they are going for parody, not just homage". - Third dude gave us the complete characterization of "all frat boys are horrible individuals who should die by ax murderers" (not really...but it does seem to be a horror trope). They've had piece-of-shit college characters before but THIS guy getting a random sex hookup invite via text? OTT even for Supernatural. Then we have fat-guy frat humor and death by decibel. Again...ONE death with 'good girl'...no issues. Three OTT deaths with 'good girl' lives...it feels like I'm watching a 90's slasher film. Watching the flashback to the Bad Decision Moment and ...voila, this looks like a "movie in a TV show" to me. Now, if they had just played the rest of the episode straight ... find the ghost, gank/end the ghost...done, then I might have said it was a bit of lazy reuse of horror tropes with some lampshading going on. But I feel like the second half turned back into Supernatural 101. With the parallels and Dean AND Sam both learning life lessons regarding their current personal issues. Sam and Dean were learning NOTHING during the first half. They were kind of characters in the movie as well until we got to the second half. I hope this explains it more. I feel like I've repeated myself -- so I'm sorry. I just may not be able to articulate how I got there. I will say, once I've seen it, I can't unsee it.

Well maybe he's trying to set a Guiness record: "Most serial kills, one person at a time, in a single year." Seriously, that mass grave site is freaky. And what a wonderfully simple way of using little mounds of dirt to creep the hell out of people. A+ set/production design. Do demons have an eidetic memory memory? Just from that clip, the latest murder seemed personal. Like wiping out a lineage. Did this family line short change him on a horse in 1820 or something?

It's just my read. I'm feeling pretty confident on it based on the specifics I already mentioned, but most of these episodes can be viewed from many different perspectives.

++ John -- Christian Campbell -- Gwen Campbell 23 - Ellen 21 - Rufus 19 - Bobby 19 - Jo 19 - Mary 17 - Ash 17 - John 07 - Gwen Campbell 07 - Garth Salted and Burned Samuel Christian Campbell

It was so Cabin-in-the-Woods-esque. The specific tropes of the college teens in particular was the give-a-way. Why they went for that with THIS episode? I don't know. Perhaps because they wanted to juxtapose the caricatures of the teens with Dean realizing he can't keep "playing" Dean Winchester (hungry, horny, dumb, guilt-ridden, bad coping mechanisms) and just BE Dean Winchester (the guy who finds peace in Saving People, Hunting Things...).