cmr2014

I wanted to point out what a great wedding gift JB and J'chelle gave Jill and Derek.They get to live in the house "until it sells" -- which could be three months, or three years. JB loses nothing having people in the house taking care of it while it's on the market. It looks super-generous, but costs him nothing. It will, of course, save Derick and Jill a lot of money which they can save for a down payment on their own house, which is good. I cannot even with Bin and his new "job." So now he is living in the compound "working" for JB. I would virtually guarantee that no money is changing hands here. Bin works, and in return he gets to live in the guest house, and eat a portion of tater-tot casserole every day. He is guaranteeing that he (and Jessa) have a life of indentured servitude ahead of them. Even if they eventually decide that they want out, he will have no education and no skills. I wonder if JB doesn't intent to stuff Bin and Jessa into that house with Jill and Derick. There's plenty of room, and both girls will insist that they are "thrilled" to be together, and the guys won't be in any position to say anything to stop it. He can then keep the accountibilibuddy system going to prevent any loose talk about jumping ship.

I feel exactly the same way. I was so happy for them, and I think they are a cute couple. I had some hope that they could have some time together. And, I admit, that I hoped that they would be able to provide another option for the younger kids -- look, you can be married, and happy, and have a career, and not just pop out babies every year. I guess I'm just done with them now.

I've been reading a thread on FJ about which Duggar kid will be the first to rebel. It got me thinking, and then it occurred to me that it might not be one of the kids at all, it might be J'chelle. I realize that it sounds far-fetched, but I think it's a real possibility. Like many posters here, I think it is J'chelle, rather than JB, who is the fanatic. I think most of this dog and pony show is hers -- all the kids, the "modest" clothes, courting, etc. I think it's the fanatic devotion to the cause, rather than the cause itself that is more defining of her personality. I have a couple of friends who are like this. Their world revolves around something for a while, then it doesn't. It has been replaced by something new that is just as earth-shatteringly important to them, and the other thing is forgotten. They aren't religious, or New Age adherents, or vegans -- they're just obsessive fanatics. J'chelle is approaching 50 and can no longer have children. We're getting a very awkward and unpleasant front row seat to how difficult this has been for her to process. It's not uncommon for middle-aged people to have a "mid-life crisis" and go a completely different direction in their lives. Gothardism / Quiverfull were perfect for J'chelle when she was popping out babies. She was doing "God's work" and doing it better than almost anyone else. Now -- in the world she has chosen to live in -- she has no value. I think she is too self-centered to stand for that. I don't forsee her settling into her "new season of life" and enjoying her grandbabies. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but I really don't think that 20 years from now JB and J;chelle will be a happily married couple with 19 kids who are all living as fundies and raising their own brood of 12+ kids . . .

There's a lot of talk on this board about the J'Slaves, and how ridiculously overworked they are (and I agree), but it just occurred to me while reading this thread that the older boys were short-changed too. Josh, JD, and (maybe) Joseph spent three years working on the TTH. I wonder if they ever even graduated from the SOTDRT. I remember JB talking about how educational the project was, and it probably would have been if it had been part of their education instead of all of it. It might have been more educational, too, if JB had brought in some actual professionals in the trades and allowed his sons to work alongside them.

I have a problem with an 18, year old kid who has nothing better to do with his time, and no other interests, than debating fine points of Christian doctrine with himself. I seriously cannot imagine that this kid has any friends, much less Catholic friends. Ben has been raised to follow a very specific interpretation of Christianity, and he has been raised to "testify" to anyone who will listen. I hope that JB can put a muzzle on this kid, or push Jessa to break off the courtship. People who like watching the Duggars because they are "wholesome" or "Christian" will turn on them in an instant if their religious beliefs are insulted.

I was watching the marathon last weekend and saw an episode where they were moving. I was shocked to see them packing up shelves of books. Of course, I doubt any of those books were outside of a very few Gothard approved titles, but it was still surprising. It made me wonder if the older children, at least, had gotten some sort of an education before J'chelle completely checked out and left school marming to her teenage daughters. In one of the early episodes, it is said that Josh wanted to be an attorney. It's possible that Josh isn't as dumb as he appears to be, but lacks any sort of exposure to, well, anything really.

I know that the no birth control thing is a Quiverfull thing, not an evangelical thing. One of the things that evangelicals snark on Catholics about is the no birth control / big family thing. It is considered irresponsible and barbaric. I can easily see a very conservative Christian guy failing to pass the courtship test if he said anything positive about family planning.

I was surprised when I watched the old episodes to see how closely aligned JB and J'chelle's early businesses mirrored what they had done for their kids: Car Lot - Josh Towing business - John David Convenience Store - open Insurance License - open Real Estate License - open It's possible that Bin's foray into the world of insurance was the suggestion of JB. Perhaps JB suggested that he take this more recent construction job to prepare him to refurbish houses. JB knows how to make money, and he may see something in Bin that we (or at least I) don't.

I have been watching the earlier episodes, and I'm not sure where this fit in the chronology, but J'chelle mentioned at one point that they had set aside a space in the new house for a grand piano that they hoped to get one day -- this was interspersed with shots of them moving an upright piano. My guess would be that TLC purchased the piano for the new house. There is mention during the episode leading up to the move that TLC helped them finish building the house, and also helped to furnish and decorate. I'm assuming that the oohs and ahhs were the staged reaction of the kids showing their gratitude for the new piano.

Watching the earlier episodes, and they are so different. The religion stuff is so toned down, and there is none of the odd language: they are not "purposing" or "fellowshipping." There is no explanation of "side hugs" or "pieces of your heart." Michelle seems to enjoy being a mother and there is real interaction between her and the kids. The hair and the clothing on the girls are horrifying and Jana has some really unfortunate bangs, but the whole family seems so much more relaxed and so much more likable.

I've been watching these early episodes as well, and I agree. Michelle seems engaged with the children in these early episodes. The change seems to come around the time that they move into the new house. They acknowledge that TLC ponied up the money to finish the TTH, and the girls have moved on from the horrible prairie dresses, so it seems likely that there is more money available -- I wonder if that is relevant, or just a coincidence. On an unrelated note, Jana's bangs are really unfortunate in these episodes (short and curled under). She has really blossomed in recent years,

I come from a large family, and my experience is that I was much closer to my siblings than I was to my parents. I think that Josh is probably the only person who really knows what the J'Slaves have been through. I think he loves Anna, and wants her to be happy (and I think her self-worth is tied up in baby-making), but he also loves his kids. I don't think he wants MacKenzie to live the life of a J'Slave. There are subtle signs of him breaking away (like the shorts), and his siblings seem to really enjoy trips to DC -- they might actually be able to speak to one another with some candor in that environment. I don't find Josh especially likable, and I don't like his politics, but I think his heart is in the right place when it comes to his family. Of course, this is all conjecture based on my own experience . . .

I started watching (14 Kids and Counting) because I thought the show was about how such a large family deals with day to day issues (cooking for so many, laundry, etc.). I found it mildly interesting and watched additional specials as they appeared. I heard some noise in the background about the Duggars being members of the Quiverfull movement, but I wasn't that interested in the family or the movement. In fact, my initial reservations about the family were that they were SO UNINTERESTING. How could there be so many children in one family, and none of them be interesting at all? They all seemed to be reasonably good looking and pleasant, but just really uninteresting people. My objections to the family were simply that there is really no reason for that particular gene pool to be so over-represented in the general population. Recently, though, they seem to have become much more open about the extreme beliefs underlying their decisions. In the early specials, their religious beliefs were very vague (Christian!), but now they seem more than happy to let America in on their strange "courting" beliefs, and their ultra-conservative politics. I wonder if they are doing so to keep the cameras rolling, or if they are confident enough in their popularity that they believe that the cameras will keep rolling once their beliefs are public?

I keep thinking about the fact that Derrick is an accountant. That suggests to me that he is a really practical guy. Do you suppose he was interested in being JB's "prayer partner" because he wanted to get to know JB better and find out about his "debt free" lifestyle with 19 kids? I saw this link on FJ, and I wonder how much of this Derrick knows? http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/05/welfare_ok_if_youre_christian I don't think Derrick and Jill will have more children than they can afford. There is nothing in Derrick's history to suggest that he will be happy raising a family in poverty simply to have a large number of children.

Thank you for the insight. It was foolish of me to try to apply logic or reason to their actions.

Maybe the mission trip will give Bin some cred in ATI circles, and he will be able to get a job at HQ when he returns? JB is a business man. There is no logical reason to allow his daughter to court an 18 year old windshield repair tech unless he saw some potential for the future. Maybe he had a plan all along? Personally, I'm much more liberal than the Duggars (surprise!), and I would not send those two horny teenagers on a trip to the jungle. This "courtship" has been dragging for a year, and I don't think they will just go on much longer without touching at all. And, oddly enough, I think that their over-supervised courtship makes them believe that no only is it virtually impossible to touch without it leading to sex, but they cannot be expected to have any self control at all. So, if they do find themselves alone one day, and their hands happen to touch . . .

I hope that this is all true, and not wishful thinking on the part of the "person in the know." It certainly makes sense -- I can't imagine the culture shock of going from the TTH to being married, living with just one other person, etc. in such a short period of time. I'm also glad that she has the opportunity for some one-on-one time with Jennifer. This is a huge life-change for that little girl, too. It would be great for Jill to spend some time with her MIL. My hope is that the MIL is weak from chemo, but getting better. It would be a great opportunity to spend some private one-on-one time with someone with a different perspective on life.

I hope that this is untrue, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. In this "culture," if Jill continued to work it would imply that either Derrick was unable to provide for his wife, or that Jill was unwilling to put aside her own desires to create a home for Derrick. Perhaps if they decide to go on a missionary trip, Jill will complete her training. I really hope that Derrick's mother recovers 1) because, obviously, I would hope that for anyone 2) because she seems like a nice lady 3) because Derrick has already dealt with the loss of his father 4) because I think it would be great for Jill to be pampered by a real mother figure 5) because I think that she could give Jill some perspective and help her learn to become a partner to her husband rather than a servant. I think it's unrealistic to expect Jill to leave a 19th century mind-set and transition to a 21st century mind-set in a matter of days.

Another thing that bugs: Saying that they are leaving their family size up to the Lord when they are clearly not. First there is he mind bogglingly creepy calendar of fertility on the refrigerator Secondly, God gave them free will, reasonable intelligence, and access to birth control. This complete denial of responsibility for something that they are 100% responsible for is annoying. It's like cutting your own brake lines, getting in the car, getting in an accident, and then saying that it was the "Lord's will" that your car got wrecked.

Things that bug me -- I'll just start with 2: 1. I think that people who choose to have a lot of children should, at the very least, like children. There is simply no evidence that J'chelle likes kids at all. Those (what I assume were) FU internet scenes this past season with J'chelle interacting with her "blessings" were just painful to watch. 2. Do the Duggars ever watch their own show. If JB and J'chelle sat down together and watched the show as an opportunity to view their children and their parenting objectively, they might notice how sad Jana looks, or how unsuited Jessa and Ben are, or how poorly behaved the howlers are, or how lost the little girls are. While I'm sure that the Duggars think that people who post to these boards are "haters," the people here seem to be more concerned about Jana's well being than her parents. They remark over and over about how beautiful Jill looked at her wedding (it irks me no end that J'chelle couldn't even acknowledge that her daughter was a beautiful bride). I see concern expressed over and over for Mary and for the youngest girls. While I see plenty of snark about Ben and Jessa, there is also a lot of concern that they are unsuited for one another, and simply too young and too inexperience to understand the problem. If they watched their own show, they would realize that they need to step up and be actual parents. There's a lot more to raising kids than giving them a dorm room, some thrift store clothes, and a little tater tot casserole.

It's my understanding that the long wavy hair is to please the headship, and to catch a man. Jill caught the man, and if her new headship doesn't mind the hair pulled back, she can go crazy.

OMG! Did anyone else notice that in the video with the bridal store owner, that J'chelle did not once mention how pretty Jill looked in the dress? There was talk about the dress, and about how great a mom J'chelle was, and about "modesty," but nothing about Jill. Who does that? Is this some bit of Gothardism that J'chelle can't even say, "my daughter was a beautiful bride." While people can talk about the bridesmaid's dresses, Jill was a beautiful bride. Why can't her own mother give it up for her for one second of one day of her life? I wonder that, too. It's seems like a very quick decline from a trip to Nepal in Jan or Feb to missing the rehearsal dinner and needing a wheel chair in June. What little I've seen of her, I've really liked: the pants, her interactions with Derrick, the side-eye at the Duggar hh. I especially loved her promise to pamper Jill. Like many other posters, I would love to see Jill pampered a bit. And, I would especially love to see Jill show affection to a mother figure who showed affection in return. I would love to watch an episode where Jill and her mother-in-law went out shopping for the day, bought some pants, had some lunch, and then said goodbye by giving each other a normal, affectionate hug.

If Bin is actually going to attend the U of AR this year, I think his courtship with Jessa will end pretty quickly. There are lots of pretty girls there who would be happy to hold hands, and kiss, and possibly more. If he and Jessa can't marry until he is financially stable, then that won't be for another 3-4 years. Jessa may be fine with holding off on holding hands for another 3-4 years, but I don't think Bin will be able to hold out. He may like being on TV, and may like having a pretty girlfriend, but he's a teenage boy, and I think the temptation will just be too great.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that the idea for the bridesmaids dresses was probably the mint with a touch of white petticoat showing at the hem. Then (I think) that the girls got into a modesty contest -- each saying that she would need the white to be just a bit longer because "I'm just a bit more modest than you." You can see on the younger girl's dress that there is just a bit of white showing beyond the hem of the green. I really hope that other posters are right and that Derrick and Jill will go fundie-lite and move away from Gothardism, but I think the signs point the opposite way. 1. Derrick sought out Jim Bob. Who he is and what he stands for are well known. Why seek him out as a "prayer partner" if you think he is too extreme. 2. I can't help but wonder if Derrick sought out Jim Bob in the hope of finding a fundie wife. If his mother is terminal (and I hope for a million different reasons that she is not), he may have wanted to find someone who would be open to marrying after a very short courtship and begin popping out babies. 3. Derrick comes from a small family, and it's my experience that people from small families often want large families (and vice versa) 4. Even if Derrick does think that he and Jill can go fundie-lite, Jill has been programmed for 20+ years. People can be brain-washed in a matter of months. Unraveling years of programming is not going to happen overnight. I don't think anyone would choose a wife thinking "once she's de-programmed . . . " 5. They have accepted a house from JB and J'chelle 6. They are shilling for 19 Kids and Counting during their honeymoon (ick) I can't begin to imagine what the lives of the Duggar kids are like. What would it be like to grow up with no friends and no contact outside of your immediate family? What would it be like to have literally no privacy -- not one second of privacy -- for your entire life? What would it be like to live in this type of environment where you can never open your mouth, or share an opinion, without being afraid that it will get back to your parents and you will be sent off to a re-education camp? I don't know how Derrick can begin to relate to that. I think that this is going to be a HUGE transition for Jill. Can you imagine what it will be like when Derrick goes back to work and Jill is alone in her own house for the first time? I think the Duggar kids will be swarming her house all.the.time. I think that's going to be a HUGE adjustment for Derrick.

I watched a made for TV movie last night about Warren Jeffs of the FLDS. It was really creepy because he kept admonishing the women to "keep sweet." More than that, though, the ideology of the two cults (FLDS and Gothard) seems to be identical (minus the multiple wives). I was really stunned as I watched it as I saw not just the same concepts, but the same terminology, being used. The women aren't educated and are married off young, so that they will have children and become emotionally as well as financially dependent on their spouses. Women are seen as weak vessels who must be cared for an protected by constant monitoring and correction.