cmr2014

We will have to agree to disagree on this. There is a difference between having a child sleep, occasionally, in a pack and play, and having it serve as her bed for years. The same goes with kids sleeping on the floor. There is a difference between what a child chooses to do, and what his or her parents provide. What I see is this: There aren't enough appropriated beds for all of the children. There are no linens -- not just no clean linens -- but no sheets of any kind The younger kids are unwashed and their hair is often uncombed They are dressed haphazardly in layers of mismatched clothing There is no structure: no bath time, no story time, no bed time, and no wake-up time Any one or two of these things would fall under "different strokes," but together they show a household in complete disarray. It clearly isn't a case where there is no money, or the parents have substance abuse problems, it's just that the parents have lost all interest in taking care of their kids, and the little ones will just have to make do with whatever the J'Slaves can scrape together for them.

I think that both are very possible. Some of the kids may go ultra-orthodox and disavow the veneer of civility that JB and J'chelle have created to keep the dog and ponyt show on air -- Jessa certainly seems headed in this direction. Others may go in the complete opposite direction. In 10-15 years, I would expect to see a lot of change and I think only a very few will remain on the very narrow path that JB and J'chelle have charted for them. I also think that their effort to break up close relationships between siblings of opposite gender could allow rifts to develop between the siblings.

Ben and Jessa are getting married in less than a month, and there hasn't been a peep about where they will be living. Weren't we seeing pictures of Jill and Derick decorating their house one month before their wedding?

I was reading the posts about the carpet installer and it occurred to me that JB had this house on the market -- for a lot of money -- didn't he? Why weren't the floors done? The house was beyond filthy a few weeks ago when they went to clean -- weren't the shoveling up construction debris? They've had the house for a couple of years, haven't they? Also, IMHO, the cheap carpet is a bad idea. If they were just going to put it on the market, it might be okay; buyers would probably prefer to choose their own anyway. If Jill and Derick are going to live there for a couple of years, the carpet will look worn and shabby pretty quickly with all of her siblings coming and going, not to mention a baby. If they had just put down hardwood, it would still look good two years from now and they wouldn't have to pay to re-carpet.

I felt the same way. I would also like to add that this is one (of thousands) of reasons for people to spend time together and get to know each other before marriage. Did Jill just assume that Derick would quit his job, and jump on the bus? Because who wouldn't want to be part of this dog and pony show? Did they talk about anything other than their favorite Bible versus before they got married?

Someone posted a while back that there was a scene at the kitchen table where Jessa said to JB "I AM marrying him!" or something to that affect (I didn't see it). It made it seem like maybe this Bin / Jessa thing is not really a JB match at all. He certainly doesn't appear to like him Jessa has mentioned that she's "not that into" weddings, and that she'll probably use a lot of Jill's decorations. I wonder if some of this is just damage control. JB doesn't want her to marry him, and she's not going to get the princess treatment that Jill got, so she wants to get it out there that it's because she doesn't want it. Obviously, that's all wild speculation, but the difference in treatment between Derick and Bin is night and day.

I bet that the owner of the store was Fundie Friendly, but he sent his workers to deal with that dog and pony show.

I think that the white on the bridesmaids dresses started out as a bit of lacy white slip that was supposed to show. Then one of the girls said, "Oh, I'd like my slip to be just a tad longer because I'm just sooooo modest." From there it became a modesty contest until they were all waling around with 6+ inches of old pillowcase hanging out of their skirts. It's not really my style, but the green dresses with just a hint of lacy cotton slip at the bottom might have been okay. I know that their wardrobe "standards" are different from mine, and this is "reality" television, but I don't know how they can appear on television looking like they do. All of the kids look like an unmade bed all of the time. I just can't imagine letting my kids be filmed un-bathed, swathed in layers of ill-fitting clothing, and with uncombed hair.

That's really interesting. I think that each of the Duggar kids will have their own issues going forward, and I think they will be different for the J'Slaves, Howlers, and Lost Girls, but they will all have issues. Extremely large families weren't that uncommon in the past (maybe not this big, but 10-14 kids wasn't that uncommon). I'm sure that those people had their own issues, but managed fine as adults. The difference here is that it is so clear that their parents -- and in particular their mother -- simply don't connect with them at all. Someone posted upthread about Jill's facial expressions as J'chelle read that ridiculous letter at the bridal shop. I watched the episode in repeats the other day and have to agree. It seemed like there was a lot of baggage in whatever she was hearing -- like bits and pieces made her angry or exasperated or something else that I couldn't read. There's no way to really know. From my outside perspective I wondered if she was angry that J'chelle didn't take a moment to thank her for raising her kids, or that she implied that she might "do evil" to her husband, or that she couldn't just drop the bs Gothard speak for a few seconds and say something real to her daughter. Or maybe I'm reading too much into this and she just couldn't maintain the non-stop smile while she was being filmed at an emotional moment for her.

OMG! Honestly, do these people ever engage in conversation? Everything out of their mouths is just babble. Even when they (appear to) attempt to speak seriously, or from the heart, they have no words of their own -- everything is just the same platitudes over and over and over and over.

How long was this camping trip? It was at least a couple of days wasn't it? How can Derick swing this? He just started a new job and has already taken time off for a wedding and honeymoon (or at that time was planning to take time off)? I hope that Derick hasn't been seduced by the TLC cash and the comped rings, dresses, trips, etc. It would be really sad if he left his job to devote his time to the dog and pony show.

Wow! Frontal hugs at the dress shop! It was also nice to hear J'chelle say that Jessa would be a beautiful bride. I think it may have been an FU Internet moment, but it was still nice to hear her say something nice.

I didn't see that, so I don't know anything about the tone of the conversation, but that's really interesting. Suppose this has been Ben and Jessa's party all along? What if they met, liked each other (wanted to have sex), and wanted to pursue a relationship. Then JB said no -- for any one of the many obvious reasons to put the brakes on this. Then, suppose Jessa rebelled, and said "I'm going to marry Ben, and if you don't like it, we'll elope and make you look bad to your fans." That would explain a lot: 1. Why JB allowed this in the first place 2. Why he treats Ben so badly and wants to humiliate him in front of his girlfriend 3. Why Jill and Derick got the mansion -- this is what "good girls" get. "Bad girls" can go and live in a room in the warehouse. 4. Why they waited so long to get engaged. During their "date," the kid who was chaperoning said something like "if you get married," and they both responded with "oh, we're getting married, all right!"

I'll just point out that if Jessa were marrying someone with a job -- like Derick -- she would get health insurance and be able to go to the dermatologist. re: What does Jessa bring to the table? I think that's a good point. The Duggar/Gothard lifestyle is based on a 19th century model where the husband is the bread winner, and the wife maintains the household. Except that Jessa has been very clear that she has no housekeeping skills, and she doesn't appear to be any more maternal than her mother. So, other than the obvious, she brings nothing more to this relationship than Bin does.

I swore off of this dog and pony show, but here I am again. What is the deal with Josh? Both JB and J'chelle (especially J'chelle) talk about first child to get married -- er daughter I mean, first grandbabies, etc. Is this part of the cult that the son marries and is just gone. The thing with Bin and the toilets doesn't bother me that much just because they are toilets. Toilets need to be cleaned, and lots of us had really crummy jobs at that age (I worked in fast food, and toilet cleaning was part of the gig). The real problem is that JB is steering him into this as a career path -- servant of JB. He is not going to be learning any skills that will help him in the future, and I can't imagine that JB will ever pay him a cent. He is setting himself up to work at whatever JB tells him to do, live where JB tells him to live, eat whatever the J'Slaves bring home from Aldi, etc.

I wanted to point out what a great wedding gift JB and J'chelle gave Jill and Derek.They get to live in the house "until it sells" -- which could be three months, or three years. JB loses nothing having people in the house taking care of it while it's on the market. It looks super-generous, but costs him nothing. It will, of course, save Derick and Jill a lot of money which they can save for a down payment on their own house, which is good. I cannot even with Bin and his new "job." So now he is living in the compound "working" for JB. I would virtually guarantee that no money is changing hands here. Bin works, and in return he gets to live in the guest house, and eat a portion of tater-tot casserole every day. He is guaranteeing that he (and Jessa) have a life of indentured servitude ahead of them. Even if they eventually decide that they want out, he will have no education and no skills. I wonder if JB doesn't intent to stuff Bin and Jessa into that house with Jill and Derick. There's plenty of room, and both girls will insist that they are "thrilled" to be together, and the guys won't be in any position to say anything to stop it. He can then keep the accountibilibuddy system going to prevent any loose talk about jumping ship.

I feel exactly the same way. I was so happy for them, and I think they are a cute couple. I had some hope that they could have some time together. And, I admit, that I hoped that they would be able to provide another option for the younger kids -- look, you can be married, and happy, and have a career, and not just pop out babies every year. I guess I'm just done with them now.

I've been reading a thread on FJ about which Duggar kid will be the first to rebel. It got me thinking, and then it occurred to me that it might not be one of the kids at all, it might be J'chelle. I realize that it sounds far-fetched, but I think it's a real possibility. Like many posters here, I think it is J'chelle, rather than JB, who is the fanatic. I think most of this dog and pony show is hers -- all the kids, the "modest" clothes, courting, etc. I think it's the fanatic devotion to the cause, rather than the cause itself that is more defining of her personality. I have a couple of friends who are like this. Their world revolves around something for a while, then it doesn't. It has been replaced by something new that is just as earth-shatteringly important to them, and the other thing is forgotten. They aren't religious, or New Age adherents, or vegans -- they're just obsessive fanatics. J'chelle is approaching 50 and can no longer have children. We're getting a very awkward and unpleasant front row seat to how difficult this has been for her to process. It's not uncommon for middle-aged people to have a "mid-life crisis" and go a completely different direction in their lives. Gothardism / Quiverfull were perfect for J'chelle when she was popping out babies. She was doing "God's work" and doing it better than almost anyone else. Now -- in the world she has chosen to live in -- she has no value. I think she is too self-centered to stand for that. I don't forsee her settling into her "new season of life" and enjoying her grandbabies. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, but I really don't think that 20 years from now JB and J;chelle will be a happily married couple with 19 kids who are all living as fundies and raising their own brood of 12+ kids . . .

There's a lot of talk on this board about the J'Slaves, and how ridiculously overworked they are (and I agree), but it just occurred to me while reading this thread that the older boys were short-changed too. Josh, JD, and (maybe) Joseph spent three years working on the TTH. I wonder if they ever even graduated from the SOTDRT. I remember JB talking about how educational the project was, and it probably would have been if it had been part of their education instead of all of it. It might have been more educational, too, if JB had brought in some actual professionals in the trades and allowed his sons to work alongside them.

I have a problem with an 18, year old kid who has nothing better to do with his time, and no other interests, than debating fine points of Christian doctrine with himself. I seriously cannot imagine that this kid has any friends, much less Catholic friends. Ben has been raised to follow a very specific interpretation of Christianity, and he has been raised to "testify" to anyone who will listen. I hope that JB can put a muzzle on this kid, or push Jessa to break off the courtship. People who like watching the Duggars because they are "wholesome" or "Christian" will turn on them in an instant if their religious beliefs are insulted.

I was watching the marathon last weekend and saw an episode where they were moving. I was shocked to see them packing up shelves of books. Of course, I doubt any of those books were outside of a very few Gothard approved titles, but it was still surprising. It made me wonder if the older children, at least, had gotten some sort of an education before J'chelle completely checked out and left school marming to her teenage daughters. In one of the early episodes, it is said that Josh wanted to be an attorney. It's possible that Josh isn't as dumb as he appears to be, but lacks any sort of exposure to, well, anything really.

I know that the no birth control thing is a Quiverfull thing, not an evangelical thing. One of the things that evangelicals snark on Catholics about is the no birth control / big family thing. It is considered irresponsible and barbaric. I can easily see a very conservative Christian guy failing to pass the courtship test if he said anything positive about family planning.

I was surprised when I watched the old episodes to see how closely aligned JB and J'chelle's early businesses mirrored what they had done for their kids: Car Lot - Josh Towing business - John David Convenience Store - open Insurance License - open Real Estate License - open It's possible that Bin's foray into the world of insurance was the suggestion of JB. Perhaps JB suggested that he take this more recent construction job to prepare him to refurbish houses. JB knows how to make money, and he may see something in Bin that we (or at least I) don't.

I have been watching the earlier episodes, and I'm not sure where this fit in the chronology, but J'chelle mentioned at one point that they had set aside a space in the new house for a grand piano that they hoped to get one day -- this was interspersed with shots of them moving an upright piano. My guess would be that TLC purchased the piano for the new house. There is mention during the episode leading up to the move that TLC helped them finish building the house, and also helped to furnish and decorate. I'm assuming that the oohs and ahhs were the staged reaction of the kids showing their gratitude for the new piano.

Watching the earlier episodes, and they are so different. The religion stuff is so toned down, and there is none of the odd language: they are not "purposing" or "fellowshipping." There is no explanation of "side hugs" or "pieces of your heart." Michelle seems to enjoy being a mother and there is real interaction between her and the kids. The hair and the clothing on the girls are horrifying and Jana has some really unfortunate bangs, but the whole family seems so much more relaxed and so much more likable.