cmr2014

JB made the news: http://www.salon.com/2014/10/13/jim_bob_duggar_incorrectly_says_birth_control_causes_abortion/ We have, of course, heard this bs from the Duggar's before, but they seem to be becoming more and more open about their beliefs. It occurred to me that we might be wrong about the Michael Seewald / JB Duggar dynamic. Since the Benessa courtship began, there have been more and more overt statements. There was some sort of ridiculousness last month where they went and preached on the sidewalk in front of the White House saying something like they "weren't afraid" to speak out about their faith. I wonder if the Seewalds -- and perhaps others -- have been mocking them for the tolerant tone they take on the show (This is what we do, but we respect the rights of others . . . type bs). Perhaps JB has no intention of putting a muzzle on Mike Seewald, maybe he is actually trying to be more like him.

I hadn't thought of this. I had always thought that people looked at them and thought they were well behaved and clean-cut. And, of course, when I look at them, I see the older children behaving fine, but the younger ones completely out of control. I also think that the older children are reasonably well groomed, but the younger ones are not. This is a real pet-peeve of mine. There is a difference between a child who has been outside playing in the mud, and one that is never bathed, sleeps in their clothes, and never combs their hair. Aside from my distaste for their religious and political views, I find the family en-masse, to be revolting. When is an occasion important enough for this family to dress nicely? The go on GMA, speaking engagements, political appearances, book signings, etc. looking like they just pulled on the first 10-15 items of clothing they found in the hamper (it is possible to dress modestly without wearing 5 layers of clothing). ETA: Here is a link to a photo of the extended Romeny family: http://crayfisher.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/dont-be-a-h8er/ This is a conservative Christian family, dressed modestly, and appropriately without a dozen layers of clothing. The children are clean and their hair is combed. The Duggars are just gross.

I read this and thought -- wow, this is really drifting off into wild conjecture. Then, I realized that the Duggars have no one but themselves to blame if all kinds of wild things are speculated about their family (and this doesn't seem like wild speculation to me). They have intentionally exposed their family to public scrutiny for years while hiding some aspects of their lives, offering partial views of others, and providing intentional mis-information in still other areas. This Gothard scandal broke a long time ago, and they have made no effort to address it, and continue to send their children off to Gothard events (although I haven't heard anything about JTTH recently). When asked, they deny any connection to Gothard -- even though they are clearly connected (through Gil Bates, David Wallace, JTTH, Alert, etc.). Even if Jana wasn't directly affected, I find it hard to believe that she hasn't been affected at all. She must have know at least some of the girls who were abused. She was indoctrinated for years to believe that Gothard was some kind of hero, and then to discover that he was pervert must have been devastating to her. If I were her, I'd be questioning the character of all of the "Godly" men in my world, and I wouldn't be super-excited about making a commitment to anyone. And, I wouldn't have a lot of confidence that my father -- who was a devotee of Gothard -- was a good judge of character and could be trusted to find me a good husband.

I knew a guy when I was in college who would tell anyone who would listen that he wanted an "old fashioned" wife. He eventually found his dream girl in an Asian mail-order bride. When we met them at gatherings (fortunately only once a year reunions), we would try to engage her in conversation, and ask her about herself, but she never had anything to say and would look to him for guidance. Eventually, he divorced her. He said she was "boring," and he was angry about having to pay spousal support and wanted her to "get a job." He specifically chose her because she had nothing to say, and would never offer an opinion of her own, and had no skills or desire to work outside the home. The whole thing made me really angry. He had never once thought about that girl -- what it would be like to never, ever be able to express your own opinions or interests -- and how that would play out in real life. I broke off all contact with him after hat. My point here is that I hope this doesn't happen to Jill and Derick. I hope that he encourages her to begin to take baby steps out into the world, and to develop her own interests. Not just for her sake, but also for his, and for their child.

It occurred to me recently that the Duggers are more grifters than anything else. I realize that JB and J'chelle worked when they were younger, but they have been able to support a family of 14-19 kids without doing an honest day's work for the past 20 years. In the early days it was "love offerings" from the church that allowed them to feed, clothe, and shelter their kids. Then it was TLC finishing up the TTH -- and furnishing it! And, of course, I haven't forgotten all of the "friends" who did the skilled trade work on the TTH. It's no surprise that Jill got "friends" to help with the cake and the decorations for her wedding -- I don't think that any of those kids knows what a friend is. They've been isolated since birth, and have no experience with friendship. From their perspective, a "friend" is someone who does something for you -- the idea that you might spend time with friends, or do things for them probably never occurred to them. The idea that those wedding registries look like bald gift-grabs to others probably means nothing to them. God simply "laid it on the hearts" of strangers to buy them stuff.

I want to say - first off - that I hope Anna is not pregnant again. She and Josh seem to be doing well, and it would be a shame to have another baby so soon. But, just for fun, let's say she did. And let's say that Jana went up to DC to help out. Then, let's say that Joyanna was staying with Jill and Derick to help with their new baby. And, just to make it fun, let's say that Jessa got pregnant right away, and Jinger is staying with the new mother to help out for a few months. That would leave J'chelle with NO older daughters. She might have to purpose to fellowship with her 11 younger blessings. I would so watch that.

I think that we are looking at this from the perspective of a normal family. None of these kids have ever had anything special of their own (e.g. the jewelry box, the shared birthday parties, shared closet). I don't know that Jessa would even stop to think that this is supposed to be her special time.

I think that this is the source -- at least partially -- of J'chelle's freak-out over no more babies. Their cult values large families, and married women who are popping out babies are at the top of the female totem pole. From their perspective it is completely okay to force the J'slaves to care for the kids, do the housework, etc. They are being trained for the day when they will have some value as baby machines in their own right. Grandma, by their standards, has no value at all. She is past her baby-making days (and only had two babies, to boot!). J'chelle wandered around that house for years lording her exalted status as baby-maker over everyone else. Now, her chickens are coming home to roost. Like many adolescents (and I think she is emotionally still an adolescent), she didn't think this thing through. Her children have seen how she's treated her mother-in-law. If she can't have babies anymore, what good is she? That's her belief; that is what she has taught her children -- in word and deed -- over and over again. I believe that she has years of laundry duty ahead of her, and I think she knows it.

I'm not a big fan of Jessa, but Ben hasn't had to raise a dozen younger siblings. If it's fun and novel for Ben to spend a day with the kids, great, but I don't blame Jessa for just saying "wash your hands because I said so!"

I agree. I dislike Josh's values and have huge problems with the organization that he works for, but I find myself disliking Josh a lot less since they moved to DC. Josh and Anna appear to genuinely love each other, and their relationship now seems more balanced -- less smug Josh and adoring Anna. None of them has ANY experience in dealing with people outside of their tiny bubble. I think that moving away from NW AR has been the best thing they could have done -- I hope that all of the others get out sooner rather than later.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. There is a difference between having a child sleep, occasionally, in a pack and play, and having it serve as her bed for years. The same goes with kids sleeping on the floor. There is a difference between what a child chooses to do, and what his or her parents provide. What I see is this: There aren't enough appropriated beds for all of the children. There are no linens -- not just no clean linens -- but no sheets of any kind The younger kids are unwashed and their hair is often uncombed They are dressed haphazardly in layers of mismatched clothing There is no structure: no bath time, no story time, no bed time, and no wake-up time Any one or two of these things would fall under "different strokes," but together they show a household in complete disarray. It clearly isn't a case where there is no money, or the parents have substance abuse problems, it's just that the parents have lost all interest in taking care of their kids, and the little ones will just have to make do with whatever the J'Slaves can scrape together for them.

I think that both are very possible. Some of the kids may go ultra-orthodox and disavow the veneer of civility that JB and J'chelle have created to keep the dog and ponyt show on air -- Jessa certainly seems headed in this direction. Others may go in the complete opposite direction. In 10-15 years, I would expect to see a lot of change and I think only a very few will remain on the very narrow path that JB and J'chelle have charted for them. I also think that their effort to break up close relationships between siblings of opposite gender could allow rifts to develop between the siblings.

Ben and Jessa are getting married in less than a month, and there hasn't been a peep about where they will be living. Weren't we seeing pictures of Jill and Derick decorating their house one month before their wedding?

I was reading the posts about the carpet installer and it occurred to me that JB had this house on the market -- for a lot of money -- didn't he? Why weren't the floors done? The house was beyond filthy a few weeks ago when they went to clean -- weren't the shoveling up construction debris? They've had the house for a couple of years, haven't they? Also, IMHO, the cheap carpet is a bad idea. If they were just going to put it on the market, it might be okay; buyers would probably prefer to choose their own anyway. If Jill and Derick are going to live there for a couple of years, the carpet will look worn and shabby pretty quickly with all of her siblings coming and going, not to mention a baby. If they had just put down hardwood, it would still look good two years from now and they wouldn't have to pay to re-carpet.

I felt the same way. I would also like to add that this is one (of thousands) of reasons for people to spend time together and get to know each other before marriage. Did Jill just assume that Derick would quit his job, and jump on the bus? Because who wouldn't want to be part of this dog and pony show? Did they talk about anything other than their favorite Bible versus before they got married?

Someone posted a while back that there was a scene at the kitchen table where Jessa said to JB "I AM marrying him!" or something to that affect (I didn't see it). It made it seem like maybe this Bin / Jessa thing is not really a JB match at all. He certainly doesn't appear to like him Jessa has mentioned that she's "not that into" weddings, and that she'll probably use a lot of Jill's decorations. I wonder if some of this is just damage control. JB doesn't want her to marry him, and she's not going to get the princess treatment that Jill got, so she wants to get it out there that it's because she doesn't want it. Obviously, that's all wild speculation, but the difference in treatment between Derick and Bin is night and day.

I bet that the owner of the store was Fundie Friendly, but he sent his workers to deal with that dog and pony show.

I think that the white on the bridesmaids dresses started out as a bit of lacy white slip that was supposed to show. Then one of the girls said, "Oh, I'd like my slip to be just a tad longer because I'm just sooooo modest." From there it became a modesty contest until they were all waling around with 6+ inches of old pillowcase hanging out of their skirts. It's not really my style, but the green dresses with just a hint of lacy cotton slip at the bottom might have been okay. I know that their wardrobe "standards" are different from mine, and this is "reality" television, but I don't know how they can appear on television looking like they do. All of the kids look like an unmade bed all of the time. I just can't imagine letting my kids be filmed un-bathed, swathed in layers of ill-fitting clothing, and with uncombed hair.

That's really interesting. I think that each of the Duggar kids will have their own issues going forward, and I think they will be different for the J'Slaves, Howlers, and Lost Girls, but they will all have issues. Extremely large families weren't that uncommon in the past (maybe not this big, but 10-14 kids wasn't that uncommon). I'm sure that those people had their own issues, but managed fine as adults. The difference here is that it is so clear that their parents -- and in particular their mother -- simply don't connect with them at all. Someone posted upthread about Jill's facial expressions as J'chelle read that ridiculous letter at the bridal shop. I watched the episode in repeats the other day and have to agree. It seemed like there was a lot of baggage in whatever she was hearing -- like bits and pieces made her angry or exasperated or something else that I couldn't read. There's no way to really know. From my outside perspective I wondered if she was angry that J'chelle didn't take a moment to thank her for raising her kids, or that she implied that she might "do evil" to her husband, or that she couldn't just drop the bs Gothard speak for a few seconds and say something real to her daughter. Or maybe I'm reading too much into this and she just couldn't maintain the non-stop smile while she was being filmed at an emotional moment for her.

OMG! Honestly, do these people ever engage in conversation? Everything out of their mouths is just babble. Even when they (appear to) attempt to speak seriously, or from the heart, they have no words of their own -- everything is just the same platitudes over and over and over and over.

How long was this camping trip? It was at least a couple of days wasn't it? How can Derick swing this? He just started a new job and has already taken time off for a wedding and honeymoon (or at that time was planning to take time off)? I hope that Derick hasn't been seduced by the TLC cash and the comped rings, dresses, trips, etc. It would be really sad if he left his job to devote his time to the dog and pony show.

Wow! Frontal hugs at the dress shop! It was also nice to hear J'chelle say that Jessa would be a beautiful bride. I think it may have been an FU Internet moment, but it was still nice to hear her say something nice.

I didn't see that, so I don't know anything about the tone of the conversation, but that's really interesting. Suppose this has been Ben and Jessa's party all along? What if they met, liked each other (wanted to have sex), and wanted to pursue a relationship. Then JB said no -- for any one of the many obvious reasons to put the brakes on this. Then, suppose Jessa rebelled, and said "I'm going to marry Ben, and if you don't like it, we'll elope and make you look bad to your fans." That would explain a lot: 1. Why JB allowed this in the first place 2. Why he treats Ben so badly and wants to humiliate him in front of his girlfriend 3. Why Jill and Derick got the mansion -- this is what "good girls" get. "Bad girls" can go and live in a room in the warehouse. 4. Why they waited so long to get engaged. During their "date," the kid who was chaperoning said something like "if you get married," and they both responded with "oh, we're getting married, all right!"

I'll just point out that if Jessa were marrying someone with a job -- like Derick -- she would get health insurance and be able to go to the dermatologist. re: What does Jessa bring to the table? I think that's a good point. The Duggar/Gothard lifestyle is based on a 19th century model where the husband is the bread winner, and the wife maintains the household. Except that Jessa has been very clear that she has no housekeeping skills, and she doesn't appear to be any more maternal than her mother. So, other than the obvious, she brings nothing more to this relationship than Bin does.

I swore off of this dog and pony show, but here I am again. What is the deal with Josh? Both JB and J'chelle (especially J'chelle) talk about first child to get married -- er daughter I mean, first grandbabies, etc. Is this part of the cult that the son marries and is just gone. The thing with Bin and the toilets doesn't bother me that much just because they are toilets. Toilets need to be cleaned, and lots of us had really crummy jobs at that age (I worked in fast food, and toilet cleaning was part of the gig). The real problem is that JB is steering him into this as a career path -- servant of JB. He is not going to be learning any skills that will help him in the future, and I can't imagine that JB will ever pay him a cent. He is setting himself up to work at whatever JB tells him to do, live where JB tells him to live, eat whatever the J'Slaves bring home from Aldi, etc.