cereality

I know they can -- I exaggerated. I just think chemistry and looking natural and comfortable with another person develops over time in spontaneous ways. Side hugs with mom and dad staring and saying "why don't you give her a side hug" and then saying "ok that's enough" (as they did with Bin and Jessa) is not going to develop chemistry as naturally as a couple that can normal hug or heaven forbid kiss or lean up against each other when they feel the moment is right. I think that's why the pic they released looks like a "formal" pic of 2 people who hardly know each other, rather than a boyfriend/girlfriend or engagement pic. But I think that's been true of all the Duggar couples thus far -- so super formal and polite around each other bc they're uncomfortable, don't have anything to say, and if there is something they want to say or do they have Jackson or someone in their face chaperoning them.

I grew up less than an hr away from where Jeremy is from in Pennsylvania amongst TON of Italian Catholic families. Old school Italians -- since we're only 2 hrs away from NYC. With them hospitality knows no bounds. If they invite you over for coffee, there's a full spread of snacks. If they invite you home to work on a school project, the mom (or often the grandma) expects to feed you dinner before you leave -- and dinner ain't tater tot casserole. So yeah Pa. Italians will NOT understand the idea of being offered a cup of ice cream and a slice of Costco sheet cake -- not even the real wedding cake -- while freezing or roasting out in a parking lot. That being said -- I'm convinced he will only invite his immediate family and maybe his grandparents (maybe - depending on how devout they are). I mean how exactly can he invite an entire Catholic family to a wedding when his life's work is to reform the sinners -- i.e. the Catholics and the gays. Surely at some point some 3rd cousin will ask why the wedding is in a church that looks like a convention hall rather than a cathedral; why is there no communion; why no one has made the sign of the cross the entire day. What exactly will he say -- well bc I think you're a sinner and I disagree with it!? For the fundies, there will be 500+ "guests" there, as there aren't invites but just a cattle call letting people know the time and place of the wedding and "reception." It's astounding that people hitch up their vans to drive for 6 hrs to take their 8 kids to a stranger's wedding, but it's the same reason they go to all those homeschool conventions. Most of these fundies are raising a LOT of kids in rural areas, how exactly will a cute fundie boy notice their 16 yr old daughter if they don't go to these types of gatherings. The price of gas and the cost of a $20 blender to give as a gift are worth it if it means they can get their own kids married off.

Not sure I can read THAT much into a picture to say that they're unhappy or she doesn't have joy in her smile. They simply look like a couple that's not super comfortable with each other yet and is taking a formal photo together; they don't look like they have the ease that you see in boyfriend/girlfriend or engagement pics. But that isn't shocking given that they are likely not even allowed to text privately, let alone touch.

I hope I'm wrong and that it's all talk but a 28 yr old who used to be a partier seeking a 22 yr old who has the mind of a pre teen and no meaningful friendships, education or work and then praising her for her humble, modest and meek nature -- reeks of someone who wants to be older and worldlier than his partner so he can control her. It's not unusual for a 28 yr old to find god and re virginize these days. I believe Sean from the Bachelor was that way. BUT they still seek out wives who are their emotional and intellectual equals. Here it seems Jeremy specifically does NOT want that and when guys don't want that it's usually for sinister reasons.

I think Jinger has definitely said in the past how much she misses her BFF Jessa and how she can't hang out with Jessa and Bin bc they're married -- as they show all the married couples going out together while Jinger and Jana wave bye and stay with the 4 yr olds. I'm not entirely sure why singles can't hang with marrieds in their cult -- I mean do they go out to dinner and exclusively talk about sexual relations so a poor singleton just wouldn't understand?? But I'm not sure that this marriage allows Jinger to get back to being super close with her BFF. Sure they'll be inseparable for the next 6 months of engagement (though I think they already are), wedding planning, and the wedding. After that Jinger moves 800 miles away -- so how often are they hanging out? I'm sure Jessa and Bin will do some road trips but that's different than getting coffee with your BFF on a random Tuesday. Part of me thinks that Jessa and Bin will be trying to convince Jeremy to bring another "minister" at his church in Laredo or some other made up role. We all know Bin isn't capable of getting a job on his own, but I think Bin and Jessa wouldn't mind getting out of dodge and out from under JB's thumb, IF someone could hand them a job.

What's JJCO? Honestly I think Jana sees the winner sons in law her father is coming up with and just cannot pull the trigger. She has said she wants a guy that can work hard and get dirt under his nails. She may not be all that interested in these BS "ministers" that come calling bc she knows it'll be a lifetime of them trying to make a living by posting YouTube videos while spending 99% of the week at home bc frankly how much is there to do on a daily basis? She may want a guy who goes out 40 hrs a week, does something, and brings home a paycheck.

I think all those "preacher" guys dream of a multi million dollar TV empire, complete with book signings and appearances; all of that requires a hot woman standing behind the man -- ala Joel and Victoria Osteen. In the normal world, 6 yrs isn't a huge age difference but here, I don't see how JB isn't terrified to give his daughter to this man. He's 28. Admittedly was a partier from junior yr high school thru college - so at least 6 yrs and possibly a bit more on the professional soccer circuit before he found God. So he has LIVED. Plenty of boozing and sex. Not to mention an actual high school education and a college degree from a big university. Contrast Jinger. She's not allowed to leave the compound without a sister in tow. She has NO girlfriends, let alone guy friends. She can barely send a text privately. She has no formal education -- not even high school. She's naïve and isolated. This guy found Jesus and now wants to repent HARD. Part of that repentance includes getting with a virgin who comes from money -- so he can not work like all the other sons in law, be a BS "minister," live exactly the life he wants bc he'll be the headship and he's SOOO Godly that he'll expect wife to jump to his command, and get it on with his hot wife as much as he wants. What if he turns out to be a creep like Josh who ends up being a molester or adulterer? What if he has an anger problem? What if he's abusive and demands sex acts Jinger doesn't want. I realize these are risks in ALL marriages. But in normal marriages, women -- even young women who are significantly younger than their partner -- have been around the block. Even women who are virgins have examples of healthy/unhealthy demands from a husband; and if they run into trouble that they don't want to talk to parents about -- most women can tip off a friend or even a coworker that something is off at home and that person will tell them to trust their gut. And if they need to get out -- they typically have an education and a job, so they aren't beholden to anyone for a paycheck. Here you have a 22 yr old with the experience of a 12 yr old getting with a man who is 28 and who has the right to demand absolutely anything he wants in the name of God. And if Jinger ever gets uncomfortable, the only people she can tip off are her fundie sisters who will tell her -- ooohhh you HAVE to stay married, do you want people to point and laugh and you, stay with your headship and do what he pleases! And on top of that she's moving with him alone 800 miles away so no one will ever even know if anything is wrong. Hate to say it but she's just as naïve as Anna was in chasing her man and the risks are the same. You'd think having that happen once in his OWN family, JB would much much more careful giving a daughter's hand in marriage to a guy who seems like a religious fundamentalist and seems a bit off already.

Honestly I think Gil and Kelly are just as fundie as JB and Michelle. In their perfect world, there would be 3 month courtships with handholding and side hugs and NOTHING else. Yet Gil and Kelly -- on all issues including faith and courting -- realize that their kids are adults, so now they have to sit back, trust that they raised them right and that the kids also believe in their faith, let them live their lives -- while providing the input you'd provide to an adult child, not while forbidding as you'd do for an actual child. I think they realize that some kids will hug and maybe even kiss their boy/girlfriends. However, I think they choose not to make a big issue about it or make comments that'll embarrass said child in front of his/her boy/girlfriend. JB and Michelle seem to think it's ok to treat 20+ yr olds as preteens with sanctimonious statements like "well they won't be doing THAT again" or Michelle turning to JB in a panicked way saying "Dad -- LOOK LOOK" when Jessa grabbed Ben's hand during a prayer, fully expecting JB to put a stop to it. Zach and Whitney did kiss while courting. Erin and Chad gave an interview saying they hadn't kissed, with Chad interrupting and saying "but we have thought about it a LOT" and Whitney agreeing. Nathan and Ashley are particularly touchy feely; don't know if they're kissing or not, but certainly real hugging and they definitely lean into each other like boyfriend and girlfriend; even when the family was sitting on the couch talking about the logistics of valentines day, Ashley was sitting in front of Nathan leaning into him so their entire bodies were touching -- something you'd naturally expect to see boyfriends and girlfriends doing and not even give it a second though. In his heart of hearts did Gil love that -- maybe not; yet he knew better to call out his 22 yr old son in front of his girlfriend and his entire family. I think some of the Bates kids will go fundie lite -- it's possible Alyssa and John already are; and I think Erin and Chad gave an interview saying they no longer follow Gothard. I think the Bates parents though trust that they raised their kids right and aren't sweating bullets about their kids altering their practices in minor ways.

Any chance meek means something different biblically than in modern English?? And he homeschooled for more than a few years - up until 10th or 11th grade he was home with fundie mommy and daddy. Here we go again - another obligatory Duggar marriage . . . . Can someone post the pic that you think looks unhappy? Don't think I've seen it.

Good for Jinger -- she got her city life. I mean it's not Manhattan or Chicago, as she wished for 5 yrs ago. But Laredo is a 250k+ person city - complete with shopping, many coffee houses, and I assume some kind of downtown area. With fundies it's frankly more likely that you'll end up in a 500 person rural town in Tenn. or Oklahoma or something; so good for Jinger for getting something she wanted.

Re posting in the right place: What on earth is wrong with this family?? I realize there's no answer to that. But if you are choosing your daughter's husband and you already have 2 unemployed bums as sons in law, do you really sign up a 3rd one? I'm not criticizing him getting cut/giving up on soccer. He obviously worked hard to play D1 and play professionally. But sometimes you get hurt, get old, or there are new kids on the block and careers end. It doesn't seem like he's playing now -- though who knows maybe he's on the tail end of a career and will get to squeeze out another yr or two on limited contracts. I've know guys who were drafted to the NFL and then for one reason or another were cut before the season started. 100% the difference between those who are doing well/productive and those who are just lolling around re-living their glory days -- was how quickly they put together a plan and executed. Those that were able to say -- that was great, I'm glad I got to play in the NFL for 4 months, most guys don't even get that, but now it's time to put my degree to use and build a career -- just overall became productive adults. Here it seems like he hasn't played in 2+ yrs. What exactly has been doing? A BS ministry? And I say it's BS bc if he was an actual minister with a seminary education, he wouldn't be ministering via Seewald YouTube videos. He probably met Seewald somewhere along the BS ministry road and decided -- this dude's life isn't bad. He doesn't work, doesn't pay bills courtesy of his father in law and he bangs his hot wife all the time, sign me up with one of her sisters bro. Of course when Ben told Jessa, Jessa made sure to line up her bestie Jinger bc she's hot and attitudy, as compared to Jana who Jessa considers a dud -- bc she doesn't see her classic beauty or nurturing wifely qualities.

What on earth is wrong with this family?? I realize there's no answer to that. But if you are choosing your daughter's husband and you already have 2 unemployed bums as sons in law, do you really sign up a 3rd one? I'm not criticizing him getting cut/giving up on soccer. He obviously worked hard to play D1 and play professionally. But sometimes you get hurt, get old, or there are new kids on the block and careers end. It doesn't seem like he's playing now -- though who knows maybe he's on the tail end of a career and will get to squeeze out another yr or two on limited contracts. I've know guys who were drafted to the NFL and then for one reason or another were cut before the season started. 100% the difference between those who are doing well/productive and those who are just lolling around re-living their glory days -- was how quickly they put together a plan and executed. Those that were able to say -- that was great, I'm glad I got to play in the NFL for 4 months, most guys don't even get that, but now it's time to put my degree to use and build a career -- just overall became productive adults. Here it seems like he hasn't played in 2+ yrs. What exactly has been doing? A BS ministry? And I say it's BS bc if he was an actual minister with a seminary education, he wouldn't be ministering via Seewald YouTube videos. He probably met Seewald somewhere along the BS ministry road and decided -- this dude's life isn't bad. He doesn't work, doesn't pay bills courtesy of his father in law and he bangs his hot wife all the time, sign me up with one of her sisters bro. Of course when Ben told Jessa, Jessa made sure to line up her bestie Jinger bc she's hot and attitudy, as compared to Jana who Jessa considers a dud -- bc she doesn't see her classic beauty or nurturing wifely qualities.

I think either consciously or subconsciously, Gil and Kelly realize how DESPARATE the kids in this cult are to get married. The boys just want to get it on or even make out -- since they can hardly touch a girl until she's a wife. The girls just want to be adults, which doesn't happen in this cult unless you snag a husband and bear children. With such desperation at play, both sides are on super polite behavior at all times; the girls esp. will say anything the guy wants to hear bc they fear that a Prince Charming like Chad will walk away if he isn't happy. Yet marriage comes with some serious conversations and issues. I'm sure Nathan and Ashley are having some serious conversations and/or personal doubts bc while they really seem to love each other, can she REALLY adjust to Rocky Top and does she REALLY want to? I'm sure Erin had to work up some serious nerve to discuss with Prince Charming that she wanted to finish school and live near HER family when married, as that isn't done in their cult and Chad could easily have been offended, walked away, and walked down the aisle with another girl in under 6 months. These discussions are hard enough to have privately esp. when both sides have reasons to be fake. Now imagine how much harder they'd be with Lawson around saying -- what of course she HAS TO move her; or Tori saying -- well she won't be a good wife if she doesn't want to compromise on day one; or Warden saying -- you can't even control your girlfriend. I think for that reason maybe Gil and Kelly realized that if their kids have any real chance of even sort of knowing the person they marry, they need some privacy -- whether that means talking alone on the living room couch; sitting by themselves out on a date; or texting without the whole family receiving each message. Otherwise you very likely end up in an Anna Duggar situation where you marry a guy with a whole secret life and have no clues at all bc all you know is what he said to your daddy which was -- I sinned when I was 14 but it's ok bc I've found Jesus -- and daddy portrays it to you as -- he stole a pack of baseball cards but he's repented.

I don't remember Alyssa and John's proposal at all. I remember with Chad and Erin -- Chad proposed in a gazebo and it seemed like the parents were pretty far away, not lingering near the gazebo. Brandon proposed to Michael at Great Falls in Va. -- they were right near the falls and as I remember it both set of parents were pretty far away like at the picnic tables or maybe even in the parking lot to that park; they couldn't have even seen Brandon and Michael, let alone heard anything over the rushing water falls. I think their view of chaperones is much more liberal. I DO think they discourage the couple from being completely alone, but at the end of the day they realize these are adults and they can't their foot down. When Nathan said in Central Park that he only needed 2 seats in the carriage and wasn't bringing anyone, even if Gil or Kelly didn't like it in their heart of hearts-- they kept their mouth shut bc they knew there was nothing they could say to stop him. Same thing may have been true if Nathan said -- I'm going to go get Ashley at the airport and then we can all get lunch; they may not have been able to force him to take a young sibling. Around the house, it seems like they don't want boyfriends and girlfriends totally alone -- which makes sense. But there was a lot of footage of Chad hanging with Erin in the living room without a 7 yr old sitting between them listening to every word. But with 20 other people in the home, of course they can't just give up a main space -- so the couple hangs out and people are coming and going, so they aren't totally alone in a bedroom but also able to have private conversations; not so different than other American families.

How did Bobby seem? Or did they not show enough of him to know? I agree Tori is not for everyone. Forget fundies, she isn't for everyone in the regular world either. She is loud, at times obnoxious, and at times a know it all. Maybe she's different and softer with a romantic partner -- who knows. I mean in a household of 21 children, if you want to be heard -- you probably do have to be loud and obnoxious at times, though she's taken it to an extreme compared to her siblings. When it's just her and Bobby though -- she has his full attention, so screaming isn't as important. I agree that she won't be the shy doting fundie wife who thinks her man is THE BEST -- but I think that's ok even amongst fundies; not everyone is going to be an Erin or a Michael who smile loving at their men every time they speak. I don't get the sense that Alyssa is like that at all and she and John seem to be doing fine.

Yeah I'm surprised that Kelly said that all the older kids want to bring boyfriends and girlfriends to I Love You day. I thought they didn't do boyfriends and girlfriends?? I'm glad they're letting their kids be who they are though and socialize in normal ways. Only got to watch the first 10 min or so of the episode so will have to see how I Love You day really went/Bobby etc.

I've said it before -- but it's becoming clear that the Bates' method of courting is pretty much dating. Sure they want to you formal terms like "getting to know you period" or "courting" to let the fundie world know that their kids are not sleeping around, but frankly there are people in America who date without sleeping around. I think dating is just where the older Bates kids have taken this process, and the parents know there's nothing they can do to stop it and if they revolt to hard, they'll either end up with a house full of unmarried kids like the Duggars or their kids will totally move away from religion, which I'm sure they don't want. In Kelly's own explanations a few seasons ago, after Zach's breakup with whoever he courted initially, the family had to re think it's courting practices. When they had a grown 22 yr old telling them, he felt nervous sitting next to a girl and had no clue what to say -- I think it occurred to Gil and Kelly that it's not a great idea to have their kids getting married to some other kid bc the 2 of them are fundie with nothing else in common. That's when the whole "getting to know you" started, which the rest of America calls dating. Even then though, I recall Kelly specifically saying -- the getting to know you is to decide if you want to get married, and by the time you get to a courtship -- it's just a formality to give us enough time to plan a wedding. Now fast forward a few years, and Nathan and his girlfriend are being VERY honest about the fact that they are courting and it may or may not get to marriage. In the "traditional" days -- the Bates would not have been ok with Nathan even asking her to court if both sides weren't 100% confident re a wedding so as not to tarnish anyone's reputation re giving away their heart or whatever. And I'm actually impressed (and a bit shocked) that Nathan and Ashley, as well as the Bates are being so open about this. You'd think they'd sweep it under the rug as if it never happened. Ashley was very open about how they care for each other, but there have been conflicts. Let's be honest -- a Bronx Latina and a white southern boy are going to be VERY different, regardless of their faith. They were raised in such different environments -- I bet he is a patient, yes sir, no ma'am kind of guy; whereas she is loud and assertive -- which you kind of have to be to survive in NYC. And as much as she has said, she wouldn't mind leaving NYC to get some "elbow room," you know she is REALLY thinking about whether she can live in a 2000 person rural town in the south which is 2 hrs from any city. In her mind "elbow room" may mean she could be ok with a suburban life in NJ or Long Island -- not rural Tenn. Factor into that that he is/has pretty much taken over his father's business and has NO desire to live in NYC, and I'm sure they're both questioning whether they can compromise enough to make it work. Good for them for thinking about this rationally and not just jumping in bc they want a spouse, sex, and babies. And good for Gil and Kelly -- they seemed to be just as warm to Ashley as they were before -- running out to hug her when she arrived; not looking surprised/shocked when she spoke; not telling their son to drop her right this instant. I contrast this with the Duggar family, who you know would be blaming that hussy for defrauding their baby boy when she had no intention of marrying him and mocking her for (maybe) NOT wanting to give up her "sinful" NYC life. I honestly would love for it to work out between them with a compromise that has Nathan moving to the northeast -- not NYC but somewhere suburban where they'd both learn to compromise and he could pick up some tree/landscaping work.

What's PCC? Any idea what he's doing/studying? What about her? Is she the one that was shown in a prior season at school being really social and enjoying school and saying it's hard to go home? And the one who called her grandma to tell her her GPA and was rewarded with some shopping?

As much as the Bates act more "normal" in their day to day behaviors, they ARE fundie through and through and the values and beliefs are very deeply ingrained. Every time I hear them say "you don't NEED a man" or "you'll have as many babies as the Lord wills, it's ok if it's just you and Chad or you just have 1 baby," I always see it as "insurance." Come on -- there are 15 unmarried siblings. What if one or two never get married? Or get married and get divorced? What if one of them never has babies bc they don't want to or they can't. Statistically in a family that big, all of those things are likely to happen at least once. This way they can still go on loving and accepting that family instead of shunning them aside a bit bc they can say "oh we NEVER believed that the Lord wills that everyone will get married or have babies, it's just fine bc Warden is living out the Lord's will be being a bachelor for life." I think there are plenty of fundie men to go around, but not a huge number of "marriable" fundie men. In a lot of these families there is NO belief in education -- so they often don't even have a GED and forget about college and trade school. Yet these women are used to living nicely -- I mean Jana Duggar is used to living in a mansion and traveling due to TLC money. Tabitha Paine's dad is a doctor. I think these girls' dads -- while they DESPARATELY want their daughters to marry -- they realize that their daughters are used to nice homes and will not be able to adjust to living on a windshield repairers salary (like Mike Seewald) or living in a trailer park raising their 9 kids (like Anna Duggar's parents). In that cult, if you're a guy who can provide, you must be worth your weight in gold -- which explains Chad (finance manager at a local company); John (HVAC tech and owns his own office cleaning service on the side); Brandon (an employed fundie preacher); Zach (cop); Derick Dillard (accountant even though he doesn't do that anymore - he could). Not every fundie girl is going to be agreeable to marrying a Ben Seewald kind of guy with no degree, no future plans and just making some cash doing odd jobs for his father in law. Sure I'm sure there are some fundie households where life is so miserable that the girls want out even if it means marrying someone with no education/skills, but in a home like the Bates -- where they live nicely and have a pleasant life -- I can't see Tori or Carlin just marrying anyone so that they can live in a trailer park -- I think they'd rather stay in their nice home, get a local retail job and live until the right guy comes along.

Agreed. You know the girls were NOT believing or really even listening to the -- Lord loves you, you don't NEED a man esp. at your pre-teen/teen ages -- message; rather they were making sideways glances at Chad thinking, if I'm Godly enough and pray hard enough maybe God will send me a man like Chad. Who was shown in the next episode courting/getting to know you? Is that Carlin or Tori? That guy looks handsome like all the sons in law and said something about being intimidated by the Bates. Wonder if he's intimidated by his date -- both those girls are LOUD and opinionated. Any intel on him? I'm just glad it's not a Duggar bc there was some talk last yr about Joseph Duggar with one of those girls since he's of the same age and is (was?) going to school with them.

I commented on the other post that I had wished Trace's birthday wasn't subject to the demands of a 4 yr old -- but I tend to agree with other posters there -- than Jeb realistically went to bed pretty early and likely Gil took and him the younger boys home so that Trace and the 20+ yr old crowd could chill and watch movies. I really like the way they are raising their family in the confines of a very traditional faith. I like that they let the kids be who they are. I think it's hysterical that Jeb in his 4 yr old way says that his BFFs are himself (LOL); mommy; daddy; and Trace. I love that his sisters were saying they've tried to bribe him by promising him ice cream and playing games with him to nab a spot on his list and even Erin laughed it off and said "it's a pretty exclusive list." I think that's great. Yet in the Duggar household I'm willing to be it would not be "allowed" and he'd be lectured and/or told that he loves all his siblings the same and they are ALL his BFFs. It's sweet to see 19 yr old Trace's relationship with his 4 yr old brother. I wonder if this will be a lifelong best friend/mentor for him and if 40 yr old Trace will be best man at 25 yr old Jeb's wedding. I also think it's great for the 15 (or so) unmarried kids that they have Zach & Whitney and Erin & Chad close by bc now they can see true examples of people who believe the same faith and yet slightly differently than their parents and realize that that is just fine. Little things like Zach saying the older boys come over to watch movies at his house often and Trace wanted to do a guys' movie night for his birthday. It's good that they realize that likely the Bourne series or Spiderman or whatever does not mean you're some heathen going to hell. It's great that the kids go to Erin's house and cook with her and it's one of the BOYS who has taken an interest in cooking and is learning from her. I mean I realize it was only boxed cake that Isiah (Warden?) made, but in the Duggar household he would NOT be doing that as that would be branded women's work and Whitney would have been kept around to make the cake for the boys birthday. Yet in that episode it seemed like Isiah was making the cake by himself with Gil kind of overseeing -- probably to make sure he didn't set Zach's house on fire or something. I didn't understand why Chad went to that teen girls youth group or whatever it was when Erin was speaking. I mean the whole theme of it was -- you don't need a man for validation bc you have the Lord, and there you have a man sitting there and validating that choice?! I have to imagine that Erin spoke or emailed with that girl at least once and knew what the theme was, so why did she think it was ok to involve her husband in a purely women's issue?? It was in South Carolina and I understand Erin not wanting to drive there by herself or just with Katie. So why not bring Chad, Carson, and Katie and while Erin and Katie go to the event (which was so small and casual and Friday-night-youth-group like that it could not have been more than 60-90 min), Chad and Carson hang at the hotel, maybe eat dinner, and then get ready to drive back to Tenn. when they're done??

So I just watched the first and second episode of season 2 tonight. They're still the same -- tight family that seems reasonably normal (for that cult) and seems to allow the kids to at least somewhat have their own lives. Anyone else think Lawson looks pale and like he's lost some weight on his face/neck? Wonder what's up with that. Hopefully it just means that he's traveling around and not home for Mama Bates' cooking. Though I wonder if he's feeling some stress re life plans. They clearly said Nathan would take over the tree business; looks like Trace is deciding whether he'll join or continue school. Lawson OTOH does NOT want to be a part. He wants to make it in music, which is no easy feat -- and his lyric writing is the kind teens do as a hobby and not to break into Nashville. He also clearly said he's doing music on his own and doesn't always have people supporting him, to which Nathan says -- you're 23 yrs old!! I wonder if he family "expects" him to move on, find a regular job or get into the tree business, and settle down. I mean they're not as pushy as the Duggars re running their kids' lives BUT I do get the sense that there is some expectation. In episode 2 -- sweet to see the bond between Trace and Jeb. I do hope however that Trace WANTED to share a party with a 4 yr old. I don't know how old he is but if he's just finishing high school he's between 17-19. While he's sweet to his littlest bro, it would have been nice to go celebrate with just his older brothers and even a few friends -- rather than playing race car games and cop games with a 4 yr old that he had ALREADY taken out to ice cream and spent hours with go karting. It would have been nice if someone had made it Trace's day too.

It was a dick move for Matt to sit there waiting for his turkey and checking his watch, instead of -- you know -- mingling with their guests. BUT who exactly says "shove it up your @$$" in front of polite company and when they know they're being taped, on a holiday!? Classy. They deserve each other. Zach, Jer and their wives looked super worried when she said that bc you know they were thinking -- OMG this is about to turn into a 2 hr screaming match between Matt and Amy in front of my new inlaws . . . . Glad Tori got to spend the day with her parents without her inlaws or her husband -- she didn't get there until 4 pm bc she was cooking at her parents' home all day.

WTH!? Both daughters in law reconsidered going to their parents' for Thanksgiving bc they didn't want Matt and Amy to be lonely!? Why couldn't one son go to his inlaws and other with his parents? Or switch off Thanksgiving and Christmas or do a dinner with the inlaws on Thursday and with Matt and Amy on Saturday? By setting this precedent, I hope Tori and Auj's parents get used to being second fiddle forever. I'm sure Auj wanted to do this to keep her inlaws happy, so as not to upset the apple cart with respect to inheriting the farm. And then Zach always does whatever Jer does so he likely talked his wife into it/or she felt forced.

Amy and Matt act like Molly and Jacob aren't even their kids. How many times did Amy say -- I won't be making Thanksgiving dinner this year bc my kids will be with their inlaws. Um -- what about Molly and Jacob? Why not call and invite them home? Yes Molly is at college but I don't know of a single college that doesn't give a 4 day weekend and it's not like they can't afford a plane ticket for her; and Jacob is not even in school. And I LOVE the shock from Matt bc he didn't "calculate" that Zach and Jer would have inlaws and would have to spend time with them. Uh!? Really? I thought it was nice for Zach/Tori to invite his parents to come to Tori's parents' house. And as to the above -- Zach and Tori seem genuinely happy to me. I don't see it as a sham or gold digger marriage --kind of like I see Jer and Auj. They both have their own jobs -- Tori went to college and is a teacher; Zach is still at indoor goals. They've said they want to be near the farm and keep it in the family, but Tori expressly said they don't desire to live on the farm and run it. I'm not suggesting that Zach and Tori are or ever will be rolling in money -- but they're like any young married couple in middle America -- working to make their way. Different from Jer and Auj who seem to do nothing and are just waiting for the farm to be bestowed on them one day.