MsPH

I'm strongly anti-circumcision, so I wish I hadn't read that. Poor baby. When will the mutilation end? Edit: Since I don't wish to continue with the off-topic posts, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not equating male circumcision to female circumcision, but the foreskin has its purpose, even if it's hard to imagine for people who've lived their whole lives without it. I still don't believe there is any excuse for removing it, unless it's a medical necessity, but then again I'm European and only a small minority are circumcised here. The vast majority manage just fine with it intact and enjoy the perks of having it.

I've started wondering if she actually believes that herself. At least based on what she's said and done after the show ended, she definitely seems to think he was just acting his hurt on ATFR and only wanted revenge. To me that's just ridiculous, because you could pretty much read all his thoughts and feelings on his face. He seemed nervous but excited at the same time before she came on stage, but her stone-cold demeanor totally threw him off. Yet he was still polite and respectful, and it seemed he didn't even know what to ask anymore since he'd said his peace in that letter. But then Chris Harrison started digging and she started putting her foot in her mouth and you could see his brain starting to work. Like "Wait a minute, so you think it's great that I fell totally in love with you and you actually wanted to encourage it, even though you were never in love with me? You think it was great relationship, even though I was all in and you were just enjoying the attention while Josh was taking his time?" and then the infamous question. I'm sure there was an element of anger involved (thinking she was cavalier), but it was raised in the moment due to what he was hearing and I can't really blame him. But I doubt Andi has watched it back since and I don't think she'd even dare to. It's more convenient to think he was just an asshole and she was the victim. That way she can once again avoid taking any responsibility for her actions or behaviour. Don't have to feel any guilt either since he was just acting. I'm just not sure if she thinks he was acting the whole time or just on ATFR. Did she fall for the villain edit herself, since he'd shown anger instead obvious sadness (due to being totally shell-shocked) on that last day? Josh was probably telling her how no one in the house liked him and they all thought he just wanted to win, whereas her friends were perhaps telling her she dodged a bullet while watching the show with her. So she started thinking he was never genuine. That would somewhat explain why she acted the way she did during ATFR, but it also makes her seem quite immature and insecure in her own perception. I still think it's a defence mechanism to avoid feeling any guilt. At least the whole "I let you go before the rose ceremony because I respected our relationship!" is total BS. As if she herself would want to dump him only moments before Josh proposing. No one wants that, if they can help it, since it puts a damper on the engagement. Of course they'd rather do it earlier and focus on the one they chose. If she really respected Nick, she would've let him go before he even met her parents, since she claims she knew it was Josh after their Fantasy Date. The more I think about it the more I think she has some serious issues and growing up to do. I hope Josh can help with that, or get out soon if he can't.

Meh, I would've preferred Marquel too. Not sure about Arie after all the hooking up he's been doing with various contestants. Hard to believe he's serious about finding a wife. It would've been kind of mean to not give the job to Chris though, after Chris Harrison basically confirmed it was him on ATFR. I hope they provide him with lots of alcohol since he seems like a bit of a bad drunk. Otherwise it'll be a boring season. The corny romantic gestures are making me roll my eyes already. Oh and I'm still sure becoming The Bachelor was his number one goal since day one. He surely knew there was no chance in hell Andi would pack up and move to a farm in the middle of nowhere. He even acknowledged how difficult it would be for her several times. He was only there to make himself seem perfect for the job. Hence the "romantic" letters and planes.

I sure hope Nick won't be the Bachelor. While it would be nice to actually care about the lead finding love, for once, he'd just end up as a hypocrite like the rest of them. No thanks. In other news, Andi threw two different "surprise" birthday parties for two different mags... err, Josh yesterday. As you do.

Well I for one find it awesome, not ironic, that a guy admits he was hurt by sex. It happens all the time, we just don't hear about it unless we're the ones doing the hurting. For me personally, the happiest memories become the most painful when it all ends in heartbreak, and I think that applies to most people, women or men. That night was probably the happiest Nick's ever been, so I can imagine the pain now that it keeps playing in his head. Momentary pleasure is hardly worth that. His hurt about it just proves how real his feelings were. I appreciate that bit of reality in this so called reality show. If Andi's perfect fairytale suffered a little dent because of it then she's the one responsible for that. I guess it wasn't as perfect and straightforward as she wanted it to appear after the fact. If she did nothing wrong then there's no reason to be embarrassed about it coming out. Might have been a bit awkward for the families to hear, but then again by then, they'd been watching her suck face with a dozen guys for two months. If that's not awkward then I don't know how a mere mention of sex would be. Silly show.

Well there was that soft porny Christmas video of her hanging around in skimpy underwear, so I don't think she's ever been that conservative, just trying to hold on to her job. Which she's probably lost by now anyway due to all this famewhoring.

Way too much time spent on Vaughn and Monet. They're hopeless. Monet needs to stop yelling through every "conversation" like someone killed her dog, and Vaughn needs to just stay single for the rest of his life. He's just weird. One minute I'm sure he's purposely trying to sabotage the whole thing because he doesn't really like Monet, but then he suddenly starts trying to communicate, though blaming everything on Monet while at it. Are they contractually bound to spending 5 weeks with each other or why on earth are they still trying? I think Monet might be trying because she's attracted to Vaughn physically, but that shouldn't be enough reason to put up with all his passive aggressive crap. I wouldn't trust him either! Too little Jamie and Doug, and I also felt their so called problems were exaggerated big time. I'm sure she has plenty of free time and his mom needs to calm the heck down. They've known each other for what, 2 weeks? I think the mom can wait a bit for her turn. Maybe part of why the parents seem so involved is because he was living at home before Jamie came into the picture. Suddenly he's out of the house and spending most of his time with someone they don't know. I hope Jamie can deal with the closeness. Cortney and Jason are so cute. It's so sweet he changed his schedule for her and the notes were adorable. I really hope the best for them. Jason just needs to let her in a bit more. I really like their apartment.

Yeah, I think that's one the reasons he came off so "young" to me. People usually grow a personality as they get older and stop taking themselves so seriously all the time. Marcus has a long way to go. I was also laughing at him knowing Lacy so well after 5 minutes. 4 of which she spent frolicking with another guy. If Graham did indeed want to meet AshLee, then I guess that explains him giving her a rose. His gut was totally telling him not to do it though.

I think she just meant age-appropriate for her. There's not much point hooking up with guys who are 25-30, because it's unlikely they'll take a 33-year-old woman seriously as a love interest. Least of all this shallow bunch.

Thanks for the info, Pollock! I had no luck when I was trying to find it earlier. But I did learn that apparently there will be an English and an Australian version as well sometime soon. I will be watching.

This show is delivering already! Nice to see none of these people have changed at all. Except Lacy maybe, but we didn't really get to know her on Juan Pablo's season. I didn't even remember she was the elderly care girl, even though I was sad she didn't get picked back then. Something about her face bugs me, but I doubt the guys are looking at it much. She has some skills stringing along two guys though. I thought AshLee was crazy during Sean's season, but she's even worse this time around. Now she's in love before even meeting her prey. I can't believe Graham gave her the rose. You DO NOT encourage the crazy! He just made sure no other woman is an option. Poor guy. And I feel bad for Clare now. I disliked her a lot early on in JP's season, but she grew on me, because she's entertaining. She's still narrating her own life, I see. Elyse still can't walk and now they gave her some stairs to conquer! I remember her awkward exit walk on The Bachelor. It felt like the longest exit walk ever. Her and Dylan were cute though. I wonder if she's still teaching kids. I agree with everyone regarding Sarah's choice of swimwear. That thing made her have no boobs, yet still looked like a wardrobe malfunction waiting to happen. All the ladies are looking pretty rough though, you'd think they were on Survivor. Must be the horrible climate. And it's not even close to paradise. I guess they didn't have the money to send them any further than Mexico. Marcus didn't take long to get over his true love Andi. Love how butthurt he is about Nick's tweets. This is gonna be good!

I've read the same thing referenced in many places. Who knows if there's any truth to it, since such rumors usually start circulating quite soon after every season, if not during. But what gave me pause is that the article claims Josh is insecure about the relationship, and in that infamous plane video, Nick did say Josh is really insecure and has a bad temper. That doesn't seem consistent with the easygoing guy, who doesn't care about the world knowing his future wife had sex with someone else a week before getting engaged to him. Are we really to believe this 29-year-old man who hasn't had a single truly serious relationship in his whole life, because he's been waiting for "The One", is settling for this? I suppose we'll see in due time, but I for one am highly sceptical. Andi's had her 'trying too hard' face on ever since ATFR.

She's just a Mean Girl personified. The fact that she's besties with Kelly and Nikki says it all. Their tweets sound like they're all still in high school. For example: "So lucky to have some of the baddest betches in the world in my corner! Love you @Nikki_Ferrell and @kellytravisty #youcantsitwithus" She may be softer around Josh while they're still in their honeymoon phase, but after a few months, when he's still chewing with his mouth open, all hell will break loose.

Indeed. If he was acting the other night, then some movie producers need to snatch him up, because that was some Oscar level stuff right there, with the shaking and all.

One thing that bothers me about Josh is the way he practically has Andi in a chokehold whenever they're next to each other or just walking down the street. She's gonna have a chronic stiff neck from having his massive bicep glued to the back of her head. Oh well, I'm already reading rumours about him being jealous and controlling, so I give them a few months tops.

I would buy that if the sex had happened on the last date, but she was still raving to her sister about the passion between them and how when Nick kisses her, she can feel it in her whole body or whatever. This was after they'd had sex, and I highly doubt she'd be talking like that if it had been bad. As for Nick being one of those guys you can't get rid off without being rude and heartless, I find it a bit presumptuous in Andi's case. Before ATFR she hadn't talked to him even once after the breakup and the whole closure seeking beforehand was most likely producer-driven. And even if it was totally his idea, he wasn't creepy about it, just talked to the producers. She also handled the initial breakup pretty badly, maybe because she knew how mislead he'd feel and was already in defense mode going in there. But he really did nothing wrong, so making him feel responsible about the breakup when it was all about Josh really, and then avoiding him and then acting like he's an annoying stranger? I find that wholly unnecessary. Maybe she considered the letter an attempt to manipulate or thought it was disrespectful to Josh and that's why she had that attitude. I didn't really see it as such, and this is coming from someone who's received some desperate emails from a clinger she never even dated. I think he made it clear he was just expressing his feelings and if she was happy with her decision then he's happy for her. But perhaps Andi's had some experiences with clingers in the past and that's why she turned so cold. I just think a simple "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but it's what I had to do, because I fell in love with someone else" would've done wonders. He was being polite respectful and she was just giving him a blank stare until he muttered something about being grateful for knowing he can feel love like that, and that's when she decided to open her mouth and agree like a conceited brat. And then go on to give herself credit for never telling him she loved him and to basically say she had no regrets about how the relationship with Nick went, even though anyone with a heart would regret hurting someone like that. I thought it was uncalled for.

It's probably got something to do with that. He can't have been too happy hearing about what she did with Nick, no matter how fine with it he claims to be now. I actually think she really did have some strong feelings for Nick, but since she wasn't truly in love with either, Josh was just the easier choice. He's fun and lives 5 mins from her, so there's no hassle. But even though she raves about their relationship, it's still missing some of what she had with Nick and to get over that she's had to spin what they had into a negative and convince herself to practically hate Nick. So that there would be no "what ifs". He then made it easier by questioning her actions. I highly doubt he was bad in bed, since she was still raving about their passion to her sister a few days after the fact. I just think it's so incredibly selfish to make someone wonder if they imagined it all. It's happened to me as well, and it really makes you lose trust in yourself and your own judgement. It takes a while to trust anyone after that. That's why I wanted to slap Andi when she insinuated he should be grateful to her. How self-absorbed can you get? She wanted to turn him into a believer and now wants to discredit everything he believed. I also get being annoyed at someone who won't take no for an answer, because I've been there too, but it's not like Nick was actually harassing her or imagining things based on nothing.

I'm also wondering what all those CIA pesonality tests were for if they paired up the couples just based on what they said they wanted. Very few people have enough self-awareness to know what they need as opposed to what they want. Vaugh and Monet certainly have no clue. Her loud chatter annoys me too at times, but he's just so incredibly argumentative. Everything is always her fault. I'm not surprised he hasn't found anyone on his own. And he totally moved in with her so his apartment wouldn't be messed up, and so she'd "owe" him something. I also find it a bit weird they're having sex when they can barely tolerate each other. Falling in love is clearly out of the question. Jamie and Doug are cute. She looks so comfortable around him now. I can totally understand her concerns about Doug's finances considering her past. She's probably been eyeing doctors and the like and now she's married to a guy who's been living with his parents. They just seem like such a good fit personality-wise and I hope Jamie hangs onto him. What are the chances of her finding a successful man with model looks who has that much patience and tolerance for all her quirks? Slim to none I'd say. Plus he does look handsome when he's not clean shaven. Their new place looks grim though. I think she said in an interview that someone in Doug's family knew her from the Bachelor, so no wonder the mother-in-law is a bit suspicious. I'm surprised Cortney didn't move in with his mom, since it would've saved them some time, but then again his mom probably doesn't want to end up on TV or deal with a camera crew in her home. The new apartment was so expensive though considering her situation. The show must be paying for it, which makes the whole discussion about finances seem a bit redundant. Well I suppose it's good to know what you've gotten yourself into. I really wish this show was longer. 15 mins per couple makes it all seem so rushed.

I think Josh said on Jimmy Kimmel that he's only watched his own dates and the stuff between the guys. I don't know if that means he's fastforwarded through all the other stuff, but something like that I guess. I'm sure that's good for his sanity, but then again, wouldn't it be good to have some added insight into the person you're about to marry? Pretending like the whole polyamory never happened is a bit strange IMO. But I suspect Nick was right about Josh doing anything Andi says. He seems a bit simple like that. He's got the girl and as long she's fun to be around it doesn't really matter what she's done or how she treats other people.

Yes, exactly. And as far as I can tell, the leads of this show are contractually obliged to give their F2 some kind of an explanation. That is why the F2 always gets the chance to talk to them at ATFR. Nick was hoping to do it sooner, because it was eating him up and I suppose he still had some hope about her having second thoughts. I mean as far as we've been told he didn't know Andi was engaged to Josh until the MTA taping. When she was dumping him he asked her if it was about someone else and she wouldn't say, so I don't think he was sure what the outcome was. Much like Arie didn't know Emily was engaged to Jef until Jef told him. It's a pretty tough situation to be in. Having the person you're about to propose to do a total 180 and then not having any contact with them for months and wondering if that was really it. Considering the level of intimacy it's no wonder he was hoping to talk to her in private rather than on live television, and had she said she just fell in love with Josh and was happily engaged now, I think he could've moved on already. Whether the producers would've let that happen is another thing altogether. I just don't consider him a stalker for wanting to talk to her sooner rather than later. What I do find a bit unhealthy is that he still seemed to have trouble believing that she didn't reciprocate his feelings. Even after she said so. But then again, when you're still in love with someone you don't want to think they're capable of being dishonest and using you. It is easier to think they're in denial about their own feelings. Unhealthy maybe, but falling in love screws with everyone's brains. The thing is, from the get-go Andi was going on about how seriously she's taking this and having a temper tantrum whenever someone dared question her or was having fun that didn't involve her. So Nick took her seriously. He took her words seriously and he took the sex seriously. Then she's suddenly ice cold and essentially makes the break up all about him. Because he overanalyzes and that's all they'd be doing together. As if he'd need to analyze her feelings in the real world where she can tell him and there aren't other guys in the mix. I don't blame him for thinking she made a mistake based on assumptions. That's why he still had some hope. Because she didn't make it clear she just wanted Josh and instead made up a reason that sounded like an excuse. Anyway, I'm sure he can move on now after that icy treatment. Not much room left for interpretation.

I think Andi actually alluded to the sex herself during that last night with Nick. She said "just think of all we've already "enjoyed"" followed by a giggle and it was clear what she was referring to. And she did this while reassuring him. I am seriously baffled by her behaviour. I don't find it acceptable unless she really only made her mind up the day of the FRC. But if that's the case, then that just makes the whole proposal scene seem so incredibly fake. They may be in love now after seeing each other every day for months, but back then? Fakety fake fake. But that's how she is. I've watched some of their interviews after the show and it's absolutely painful watching her. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt during the season and even defended her a bit during the Eric drama, but now I just cannot stand her. I wonder if Sharleen is going to (dares) recap this episode. She's been such a fan of Nick that this must've been painful to watch. And it sure won't be easy to stay diplomatic. Even if she considers Andi a friend, she can't possibly do a 180 on Nick.

Yes, but she might have been able to convince them not to air the "why did you sleep with me if you didn't love me back" segment. Now she had no choice. I suspect that's actually why she wouldn't speak to him "in private". She didn't want to discuss the matter and thought he wouldn't dare mention it in public. Well tough luck, Andi. Maybe you should've shown a bit of compassion or at the very least admitted that you did in fact have some feelings for him as well. Making someone feel like they were delusional to think their feelings were reciprocated is just too cruel. Especially so, when they can watch you raving about the connection and passion between you two on TV week after week.

I couldn't even focus on the proposal, because I was so distracted by Josh's suit jacket popping open. Shows how fake Andi is that she told him he looks good at least twice. And suddenly sounding like Scarlett O'Hara when talking about loving him didn't exactly help her come across as genuine.

I was also aware of the outcome and knew he was about to be dumped. That is why I was listening so intently to what she was saying and trying to think of it from his point of view. Obviously seeing both final dates, the vibe during Josh's date was very positive whereas with Nick it was more negative. But I also think that the things Andi were saying could definitely be taken as reassurance, and since that is what Nick was looking for, he probably took them as such. I also didn't find her body language to differ much from other times she's been serious. She always seems a bit grumpy while having an actual conversation. Regardless, if she already knew he wasn't it for her, then why not just dump him there and then? Why say misleading things and kiss and leave him looking forward to proposing? I just find her very cold and narcissistic. She already seemed cold towards the other guys last week, which bothered me a little, but she just took it to a whole other level this week. She couldn't have seemed less sympathetic towards Nick ever since the moment he dared question her actions in that hotel room while she was dumping him. She was ready to have a crying fest like she did with Chris, but her face changed totally when he had some valid questions. She looked angry and she looked even angrier coming on that stage to meet him. It's as if he'd served his purpose and she wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

I'm usually not invested enough to feel too bad for the F2, but this time my heart just sank when Andi turned up at Nick's door. I mean I already knew that was coming due to spoilers, but I just felt so bad for him. Because during their last date she kept looking him straight in the eye reassuring him, telling him it'll be OK and that he should be confident. This while he was expressing concerns about proposing. Anyone would take that as meaning "you should propose, because I'll say yes". He was looking for confirmation and it seemed like she was giving it. And then finding out she even had sex with him... That's just so wrong. If she was truly torn at that point and falling in love with Nick then I might give her a pass, but she said herself that she loved Josh from day one and then told Nick that she was never in love with him. If that's true then she was only following her hormones at that point and that's unforgivable, when she knew full well how madly in love Nick was. That's taking advantage! And if she were a man, people would think she's an asshole, but there's this stupid misconception that men don't confuse love and sex and are up for it with whoever whenever. That they're lucky to get some. That's such BS. Men are people too and most people would consider sex with someone they love meaningful. I can totally understand him feeling used. Now I definitely think he should learn to move on, at the tender age of 33, but she was also aware of how badly he takes heartbreak. His family told her and she even expressed concern about it. So why would she lead him on to that extent? Even if he was a backup, because Josh hadn't said "I love you" at that point. I really don't mind him knocking her off her pedestal at all. She even had the audacity to try and take credit for making him able to fall in love again or whatever. Yeah, I'm sure he's really grateful for having his time wasted and his feelings messed with to the extent that it'll take months to get over. Give me a break, Andi. I also think the producers were probably encouraging Nick to seek closure, and telling him how they all saw what he saw, just to get some drama for ATFR. And I think it's telling that Andi kept avoiding him. She knew she handled it badly. Oh and why was it so difficult to tell him "I just fell more in love with Josh"? You'd think that'd a lot easier than trying to make up vague excuses that will just confuse the other person more. In any case, Nick's lucky to be rid of her. That said, Josh and Andi seem like a good fit. I'm sure they'll be very happy going to football matches every weekend and giggling at nothing. Grumpy cat is so cute! She should feel insulted with the comparison TBH.