Marriage Story (2019)

[Chas411]

11 minutes ago, Chas411 said:

I thought I’d be more enamoured just by reading the reviews but I found it a bit underwhelming and very overacted in parts.
 

The fight scene where he punches the wall was unmoving because it felt like something right out of a play. Just really overacted. The emotions weren’t authentic to me and I didn’t feel the real, ugly rage that you get when having a fight with a spouse/partner coming from either of them. 

Ultimately Charlie had an affair so the dissolution of the marriage is on him. The fact he did it with someone they worked with speaks volumes about his consideration for Nicole’s feelings. I think Nicole would have left him eventually as she seemed to resent him for so much and he did seem deserving of a lot of the resentment. 

Not sure I get the awards buzz. Driver really made the character his own So I’m ok with that but I could feel ScarJo acting Through it all. Same with Dern although I feel her character was meant to be a bit actressy and over the top. 
 

I loved the mother though. 

 

11 minutes ago, Chas411 said:

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Golden Globe Award!

Best performance by an actress in a supporting role in any motion picture - Laura Dern, "Marriage Story"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Laura Dern's acceptance speech:

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

BAFTA nominations:

Original Screenplay - Noah Baumbach
Leading Actress - Scarlett Johansson
Leading Actor - Adam Driver
Supporting Actress - Laura Dern
Casting - Douglas Aibel, Francine Maisler

[Jordan Baker]

On 12/19/2019 at 6:07 AM, paramitch said:

I was blindsided with emotion several times in little, poignant moments: Nicole and Charlie pushing the gate closed, both stricken as it closes and they are on opposite sides. Nicole weeping after Charlie coldly tells her he doesn't like her new haircolor, and later, trying to hold onto her anger but still cutting Charlie's hair out of love and habit. The shattering moment when Charlie burst into tears and then fell at Nicole's feet. Charlie's wistful, quiet "Being Alive" (and thank you to Driver for undersinging it, which is the opposite impulse for most performers). And most of all, Charlie's face reading Nicole's "I love" list... and realizing what he had lost. All capped off by the sweetness of the final "family hug" in the street, and Nicole carefully tying Charlie's shoelace. Just a lovely, gentle film.

I had the same experience of being blindsided with emotion. I thought this would be a tough/depressing movie, and in some ways it was, but there were also these tender moments you mentioned that just rang so true to me.

As far as I can recall, I've seen Adam Driver in exactly one other role--on one of the Law & Order shows many years ago. I wasn't sure what to expect, and I was blown away by his performance. Just incredible. 

Perhaps the main reason I decided to watch this was that I'd heard there were two songs from Company (my favorite musical) in the movie. "Being Alive" is such a killer of a song. And, yes, it's often overdone. Driver was just perfect performing it. Perfect.

[ShadowHunter]

I know many talk about the fight scene in fact it's a meme already. I think a great underrated moment was when Alan Alda was telling the long joke and you could see Charlie getting anxious and annoyed. Then he asks if he was paying for the joke? 

[paramitch]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:00 PM, Scarlett45 said:

The son was written way too young, unless they were playing it like he wanted to be babied for attention. He was supposed to be 8! Writers often have a bad job with children ages 6-12, writing for precocious preschoolers and teens is easy, elementary school aged children are either babied or treated like geniuses.

(snip) 

He being a director and she an actress wasn’t lost on me.

 

Yeah, I really agree with your take on the little boy, and it's what I couldn't quite define in my earlier post (where I admitted to not liking him). There were just a few times when he would just sort of devolve into brattitude and Nicole would look beatific and just go, "Oh, he's tired," and I would make a face at the screen. It's something you'd do more with a 4 or 6 year-old, versus an 8 year-old -- at least, not on a day-to-day basis, in my experience.

The semi-autobiographical aspect of it (Charlie as a director, Nicole as an actress) is the icky part I try to overlook, because evidently it stems from Baumbach's divorce from (and infidelity to) Jennifer Jason Leigh. More on this farther down... 

On 12/23/2019 at 4:05 AM, BelleBrit said:

I couldn't shake my guilt for sympathizing more with Driver's character, knowing that he was a virtual stand in for Noah in real life, down to having sex with someone that the couple both had worked with (re: Gerwig, though in fairness this is just from publicized speculation as to the timeline of their relationship). And this is really nit-picky, but how much time is supposed to have passed in the film-was it really necessary that Nicole is seen getting a directing Emmy nomination for her show? That did not seem realistic.

Yeah, I felt similarly as well. I love the movie, but if I'm looking at it in terms of Baumbach telling his story? He does give Charlie the more sympathetic edit because Charlie is the one blindsided, Charlie keeps saying he thought they were happy, Charlie is the one who has to react to Nicole taking the action to leave (and to the other side of the country). And Charlie is the one blindsided by the high-powered attorney development. While I like and care about Nicole, plenty of these things do make her slightly less sympathetic.

And I agree that Baumbach is totally soft-pedaling his own behavior if Charlie is how he sees and excuses it. I mean, I know we can't know what was happening in his marriage to Leigh, but yes, I absolutely believe that he was having an affair with Greta Gerwig based on the timeline -- I mean, they were a public item like 3 years before the divorce was final. This doesn't mean he's necessarily pure evil, but it does make me question his motives in creating Charlie's character in "Marriage Story."

Because it's certainly a far cry from Charlie's more understandable "whoops, we hadn't had sex and I had been sleeping on the couch for a year and then I had a meaningless one-nighter with my stage manager that I already apologized for."

It's also interesting that beyond that moment we hear about, Charlie is never sexual in the film and remains alone beginning, middle, and end, while Nicole has the one-nighter with the Hot Grip, and in the end is apparently in a serious relationship a year or more later, while Charlie is still alone.

So I do think Baumbach may have been doing a bit of perhaps unconscious whitewashing there to make Charlie a little extra-sympathetic. 

On 1/1/2020 at 9:51 AM, Chas411 said:

Ultimately Charlie had an affair so the dissolution of the marriage is on him. The fact he did it with someone they worked with speaks volumes about his consideration for Nicole’s feelings. I think Nicole would have left him eventually as she seemed to resent him for so much and he did seem deserving of a lot of the resentment. 

I'm not really scorched-earth on a one-night mistake, especially if it was the only one, and the other person is genuinely repentant (in fact, I'd honestly rather never know about it at all). An affair, however, is a different take, and in that case I'd be, "Bring on the napalm!" 

So I was sort of okay with Charlie's scenario as presented in the film (although not at all with Baumbach's reported real-life situation, the long-term affair with Gerwig). Although that moment in the beginning when Nicole looks at Charlie tenderly, and he looks back, and we think there might be something salvageable there -- then the asshole Stage Manager goes over to Charlie to sleaze all over him -- AGHGHG -- had me livid, especially in retrospect.

I felt really deeply for Nicole, but I also still think the marriage could have been saved if she had just spoken up sooner. She has this beautiful monologue in the film about how she somehow couldn't speak up, and just kept letting things go along and letting Charlie manage everything. And yet as we learn more and more about their relationship, Nicole had this rage building up in the final two years and yet wouldn't be open, clear and honest about what was troubling her, and that frustrates me in general as a personality trait. Just simply because, if it were me, I'd speak up. Charlie isn't a mindreader; he can't fix what she doesn't tell him about.

But I also get that this is part of Nicole's journey -- that she is only now awakening to what she wants, to what she deserves, and to her own power. And that she was trying to be a good teammate, so to speak, trying to support Charlie. The problem is, she supported herself right into the shadows until she no longer felt like a person. And Charlie definitely deserves plenty of blame for aiding and abetting that, even if I think he was doing so more inadvertently than maliciously.

On 1/7/2020 at 1:24 PM, Jordan Baker said:

Perhaps the main reason I decided to watch this was that I'd heard there were two songs from Company (my favorite musical) in the movie. "Being Alive" is such a killer of a song. And, yes, it's often overdone. Driver was just perfect performing it. Perfect.

I'm a Sondheim fanatic, and am such a sucker for "Being Alive." I pretty much love most versions I've seen, as long as the person can sing. I loved Raul Esparza's slow-burn performance of it in the stripped-down "Company" of 2008 or so, especially that he started at the piano and built it up from there.

One thing I thought was wonderful about Driver's performance of the piece was that evidently it was his idea to intercut the original dialogue by the other characters into his performance (or that it was something he came up with in collaboration with Baumbach). It's just so much more than "singing" the song -- it instantly brands Charlie as a total, true theatre nerd right down to his core.

It was also evidently Driver's decision to repeatedly walk away and then return to the microphone to continue the performance, as if he couldn't help himself. To me this became such a powerful metaphor for the marriage and the loss of the marriage (and the divorce proceedings) too. He kept wanting to walk away but kept returning because he wanted to feel something, even if it was messy. 

Note: I have a feeling Sondheim may have enjoyed Driver's performance, since he notoriously dislikes overly "pretty" or overperformed versions of his songs (his favorite version of "Send in the Clowns" is still the one by Glynis Johns, for whom he wrote the song, and who had a wonderful voice, but couldn't really sustain notes).

And last but not least, I love how the song echoes Nicole's bittersweet earlier monologue:

NICOLE: "I never really came alive for myself; I was only feeding his aliveness."

Bookended with:

CHARLIE: 

"But alone,
Is alone,
Not alive."

It's so sad to me that Charlie needs someone else to feel alive, while Nicole didn't begin to feel alive until she left. It's the most tragic thing about the entire story to me. And, I think, very common for women and/or for partners who tend to let the other person's needs and personality subsume them.

3 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I know many talk about the fight scene in fact it's a meme already. I think a great underrated moment was when Alan Alda was telling the long joke and you could see Charlie getting anxious and annoyed. Then he asks if he was paying for the joke? 

And the thing was, it was a REALLY LONG joke -- and YES, Charlie was paying him by the hour, so he was paying for it! 

[ShadowHunter]

In regards to Charlie being sympathetic I also felt for him but I give the credit to Adam Driver.  I have to wonder if he would have been less so if another actor played the role.  Yes he was blindsided many times so that helped.  

[Jordan Baker]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

I'm a Sondheim fanatic, and am such a sucker for "Being Alive." I pretty much love most versions I've seen, as long as the person can sing. I loved Raul Esparza's slow-burn performance of it in the stripped-down "Company" of 2008 or so, especially that he started at the piano and built it up from there.

One thing I thought was wonderful about Driver's performance of the piece was that evidently it was his idea to intercut the original dialogue by the other characters into his performance (or that it was something he came up with in collaboration with Baumbach). It's just so much more than "singing" the song -- it instantly brands Charlie as a total, true theatre nerd right down to his core.

It was also evidently Driver's decision to repeatedly walk away and then return to the microphone to continue the performance, as if he couldn't help himself. To me this became such a powerful metaphor for the marriage and the loss of the marriage (and the divorce proceedings) too. He kept wanting to walk away but kept returning because he wanted to feel something, even if it was messy. 

Thanks for the info about how it was Driver's idea to include the original dialouge. Very cool. 

When I hear the song (without the dialogue), I tend to fill it in. 

And Raul Esparza is my favorite Bobby. Ever. 

[Pickles Aplenty]

I feel like maybe I watched a different movie, because I sympathized more with Nicole, than Charlie.  It's not that I didn't feel for Charlie at all, but I understood Nicole's motivation for doing what she did, and I kept getting annoyed at Charlie just assuming that Nicole would come back to New York after she finished shooting her pilot, or making a somewhat snotty comment about her new, "old" hair color.  And I really got annoyed at the fact that he slept with the stage manager, even if it was just a one-night stand.  Charlie had this arrogance about him that prevented me from being totally on his side, at times.  Nicole wasn't perfect, by any means, but I still felt like I understood her, more.  And yeah, she should have spoken up long before that, but sometimes it's hard, especially when you're female and society tells you that you should be happy propping your husband and child up, while sacrificing your own happiness and dreams.  I got it.

I do agree that Henry was not a believable eight year old kid.  I have two nieces who are seven and nine, and they act very differently, and they can read a lot better than Henry could (seriously, the kid is in the third grade, and he can't read the word "time"?  What?).  Henry was also too easygoing, with all the major life upheavals he was experiencing.  My mom and dad divorced when I was about that age, and I spent some days crying my eyes out, and begging for things to just go back to the way they were.  I realize every kid is different, but Heny was too blasé about what was happening.  I found it hard to believe that he wouldn't care that much about leaving his friends, school, and life behind in New York, like it was nothing.  If I had a complaint about the film, that would be it.

I really enjoyed Laura Dern and Alan Alda.  I don't know if Laura Dern has an Oscar worthy role, here, but I thought she was very well cast, and it seems like she had a blast, playing that character.  Alan Alda was such a stalwart, almost fatherly presence, in his own, weird way.  It's a shame that Charlie fired him, when he knew what he was talking about.  I couldn't stand Julie Hagerty, and I wanted to smack her when she was flinging the curtains open at 6:30 AM.  STFU, Mom.

[tennisgurl]

Its fitting that a movie that has so much theater stuff in it really had a stage play kind of vibe to it for me. While the movie takes place on opposite ends of the coast, it could just as easily been on a few different sets, as its very focused on talking and dialogue and acting. I thought the acting was great all around, but Adam Driver was the stand out for me. I dont know what it is, but he just has this combination of normal person and super intensity that just really works in parts like this. He really made Charlie feel so real, and when I saw him, as familiar as I am with Adam Driver, I didnt see the actor Adam Driver, I saw Charlie the character. 

I liked the film a lot, and can see why its getting a lot of buzz for writing and acting, even if its probably not a movie that full on blew me away. I really enjoyed it, but I dont know if its best picture material, if you know what I mean. Like I said, Adam Driver was the stand out to me, with ScarJo as a second. She was solid as always, but unlike with Driver, there were some times when I just saw Scarlet Johansson, and not Nicole the character. You could kind of feel her "acting" a few times, or its possible that its just me being more familiar with her and her performances, so that might be a bit unfair. I thought her scene at Laura Derns office was her best, I really felt like I "got" Nicole in that scene. Its sad, as you can see why Charlie and Nicole fell in love and seemed to be happy together for many years, but you can also really see how things fell apart. 

I dont think there was really a "bad guy" in the whole mess, and its kind of hard to tell whos fault it was that the divorce escalated and went from basically amicable to outright nasty. Charlie definitely seemed like he could be selfish, to the point that it never occurred to him that his wife might want to be in her hometown with her family, and yeah he had an affair, which is a terrible thing and even if they were in a bad place, there is no excuse, especially with someone they both know and work with. On the other hand, Nicole has real communication issues, and considering she was so unhappy and felt so angry and neglected, it it seems like she could have brought more of her problems to the forefront. I mean, if Charlie really had no idea how much Nicole wanted to go back to LA, thats probably a conversation to have, and not just hinted around at. And, you know, hacking into Charlies emails wasnt cool. Cheating isnt cool either and I guess when you need to know everything else goes right out the window, but its still not a great thing to do. Plus the two of them both have tempers, their big fight had them both throwing a LOT of low blows. 

I do like how things ended, with Charlie making a sacrifice to be with Henry more, and them getting along, even if they arent together anymore. I would like to hear if Nicole is working on some of her stuff too, but she basically got everything she wanted in this (other than a divorce, which is never fun) so...

I wish that Henry had a bit more of a presence, he seemed to be kind of a plot device for Nicole and Charlie to fight over, and to tell Charlie how awesome LA is over and over. I know that they wanted to keep him away from the divorce, but he seemed to take the dissolution of his parents marriage and moving across the country really, really well. I mean, didnt they say the kid was like eight or nine? Thats certainly old enough to know what is going on, and you would think he would have more questions, or a "I hate you both!!" meltdown, especially being put into a new school seemingly just so his mom could have a stronger claim to custody. Convenient I guess that he had no friends in New York or any attachment to the place he lived for his whole life! The lack of interest or care he had in all of these goings on, especially as things got more intense, not only strained belief, but also seemed to miss out on some drama.

Adam Driver can sing, who knew? 

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by tennisgurl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Critics' Choice Award!

BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS - Laura Dern

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SAG Award win!

Outstanding Performance by a Female Actor in a Supporting Role - Laura Dern

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oscar nominations:

Motion Picture
Actress - Scarlett Johansson
Actor - Adam Driver
Actress in a Supporting Role - Laura Dern
Original Screenplay - Noah Baumbach
Original Score - Randy Newman

[katha]

So, this was on my great lockdown watch list. 😉

I think it's a great movie and sometimes almost impossible to endure because you feel for the characters and then also want to really yell at them and at their selfish and destructive behaviour, LOL. I do think that while the script is great it has the obvious weakness that Henry is just a cutesy prop that conveniently doesn't react at all to what is going on all around him. So while his parents merrily set each other on fire "for him", he's just used as window dressing. IMO the film makes it way too easy for itself on that front because it wants to have viewers be sympathetic to Charlie and Nicole even though they're acting so ugly. The moment Henry gets upset or traumatized by what is going on, that whole concept starts to waver. So the script just ignores it.

And Baumbach films always have a tendency towards this stagey "Look Ma, I'm ack-ting!" feel. IMO these are great performances undercut by the the self-consciousness of the movie. I also don't think Laura Dern should have gotten an Oscar for this. It's an effective and creepy performance, because right until the end no one has any idea who Nora is. But the material for her just isn't interesting enough to warrant the awards IMO: Dern has played many much more layered characters. Nora's all shellac and fake intimacy, but you never see through the facade IMO. Which is the point and ends with this quiet horror moment where she says that she negotiated a few percent more of custody even though Nicole didn't even want that: You see how it dawns on Nicole that this is not her friend and that she might have been played as well. Because Nora says "You won", but she really means "I won." It's another notch for her record, she doesn't give a damn about Nicole's well-being.

And it made sense to me that Nicole rebuilt this life for herself while Charlie stayed more the same. The problem of their marriage was that she felt he drowned her out: For all his struggles with the divorce, he seemed a much more established presence with clear ideas about who he is. The divorce made him question some of that, but not all of it fundamentally. And you saw how he moved on with his life in NYC and presumably will also adapt to LA for some time. And it was a nice touch that Nicole's extra custody percent just lent themselves to her becoming more accomodating to Charlie LOL.

I do think Driver gave the best performance, but he was helped by the best writing. I think Baumbach had a lot of sympathy for Nicole, but more empathy for Charlie. Johannson is dragged down by a few moments where it really falls into this Baumbach "acting moment" territory. Though both Driver and Johannson were affecting and had great chemistry.

Edited July 27, 2020 by katha

[tres bien]

I decided to watch this again this week although I don't know why. I didn't like the story the first time.

The acting was very well done although I don't know why Laura Dern won an Oscar  (love Laura but rarely agree with the Academy Awards).

[Dejana]

14 minutes ago, tres bien said:

I decided to watch this again this week although I don't know why. I didn't like the story the first time.

The acting was very well done although I don't know why Laura Dern won an Oscar  (love Laura but rarely agree with the Academy Awards).

I think it was one of those "It's their time" Oscars. She also had a supporting role in Little Women last year, she'd had many strong performances in her career and sometimes people vote for a body of work. I think Laura Dern was one of those actors where it wasn't quite considered a travesty of acting that she hadn't won already, but the idea of her being an Oscar winner seemed reasonable.

I did like that she won and it wasn't for a supportive wife/mother or a "hooker with a heart of gold" role that's typical for the Supporting Actress category.

[tres bien]

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

I think it was one of those "It's their time" Oscars. She also had a supporting role in Little Women last year, she'd had many strong performances in her career and sometimes people vote for a body of work. I think Laura Dern was one of those actors where it wasn't quite considered a travesty of acting that she hadn't won already, but the idea of her being an Oscar winner seemed reasonable.

I did like that she won and it wasn't for a supportive wife/mother or a "hooker with a heart of gold" role that's typical for the Supporting Actress category.

Good point.

I don't remember who won the Best Actor award last year but Adam Driver really was fantastic as Charlie. 

[Dejana]

37 minutes ago, tres bien said:

Good point.

I don't remember who won the Best Actor award last year but Adam Driver really was fantastic as Charlie. 

Joaquin Phoenix for Joker, someone who was seen as "due" for a win, and the Academy really liked the movie.

I think Adam Driver is highly respected and has a good chance of winning an Oscar in the next five years. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Dejana

[katha]

Yeah, I thought Dern's work didn't warrant an Oscar, but that's not on her, that's on the script. It's just not very interesting at the end of the day IMO. It has that speech, but shoving a speech at a character is often an easy substitute for doing more subtle groundwork. In fact, kinda half-baking female characters might perhaps be a Baumbach problem when he is not collaborating with Gerwig, now that I think about it.

Driver is stunning. But the writing for him is stunning as well. A whole inner life shown through subtle actions, little moments and the song is just a culmination of two hours of build-up. Notably no monologue. Nicole, I feel, gets the beginning of the movie and the affecting speech there and then the movie loses interest in her interiority and personal development to some degree. Yeah, the movie plays with shifting perspectives, but at a certain point it stays with Charlie and follows through with that right until the last shot. And even when Nicole is in scenes without Charlie, she becomes an audience/supporting act/prop for Nora more often than not.

And on rewatch it kinda reaffirmed my feeling that Charlie, no matter how much he is still much more in the process of rebuilding, is in an emotionally healthier place. Because the film is interested in his emotional development. While my instinct is that a good sequel would be "Nicole goes to therapy," where she really works on her communication issues and her tendency to get overwhelmed by the people in her life (Charlie, her mother, Nora, even Henry to some degree). And I don't think that was intended by the movie, the external markers of success are supposed to show that everything is fine now. But somewhere along the way the script lost sight of her development and things get muddled.

[tres bien]

katha, I think you nailed it. 

The character, Nicole, is among other things insecure and needy. And her original meeting with Nora has an unconventional lawyer/client vibe more suited to a visit to a therapist. And Nora preys on Nicole's weaknesses. 

I did like Nicole's occasional flashes of empathy maybe regrets of her anger towards Charlie.

But the character of Charlie is so more superbly written.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

I was happy about Laura Dern's Oscar win both ways. I applauded it as a "career recognition" moment for someone I've never seen be bad, who always gets the most out of what she has to work with...and I thought her Nora was a great supporting performance, a memorable and distinctive entry in the movie-attorney annals.

And I can't say one of her three nominated rivals I've seen was clearly more deserving. Florence Pugh was a good Amy March, but was given the impossible task of convincing us she was 12 for the earlier parts of the story. Margot Robbie's work was one of the best things about the so-so Bombshell, but if Dern's recognition was for a single scene (I don't really agree), Robbie's would have been just as much so -- that scene of her suffering through Lithgow/Ailes's near-GYN-exam of her in his office. And Scarlett Johansson was very charming in JoJo Rabbit, but it was the lesser of her nominated performances, and I wouldn't give it the edge over Dern's either.  

I didn't see Kathy Bates in Richard Jewell, because I have yet to enjoy an Eastwood-directed movie, and it was going to take more than a single surprise nomination to make me try again. Bates is always good too, but, eh, she has an Oscar.  

I realize that there may have been performances on the level of Dern's that were unnominated. I'd hear a case for, say, Taylor Russell in Waves, Da'Vine Joy Randolph in Dolemite Is My Name, Zhao Shu-zhen in The Farewell, past winner Penélope Cruz in Pain and Glory, or one of the women from Parasite. (Look at how diverse that category could have been!) But as good as they all were, no one was really buzzing about any of them pre-nominations. So, while there was zero suspense about it, since Dern had cleaned up in the precursors, this was one of my happier moments of the 2020 ceremony.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Simon Boccanegra