Best and Worst of Buffy

[Jack Shaftoe]

A little thought experiment - remove all the fantasy elements - imagine a story where a detective is dating a serial killer and laughs at his jokes about killing people because "she doesn't take him seriously". Can you honestly take such a story seriously if it at the same time it insists that said detective is a heroic person who knows what she is doing? I can't, even though I like grey characters. Because there isn't really any ambiguity in the story - the character in question is being implausibly and suicidally stupid, while the narrative denies that.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎01‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:18 AM, Halting Hex said:

Why not? It's not even eight months since he was feeding on the blood of the couple Drusilla murdered for him at the Bronze, since he had Buffy imprisoned and threatened to feed her to Dru if she wouldn't admit her "feelings" for him.  (He doesn't get as far as demanding sex, but it doesn't seem unlikely.  Sex obtained through threat of physical force is Rape-One, for those keeping score.)

If Spike had used his advantage in Crush to get some, and he was capable of getting Buffy pregnant and she hadn't died and all, she wouldn't have even have had the kid yet.  So I think it's a little soon for her to stop taking his murderous nature "seriously".  At least let him go a whole year without being an accessory to multiple murders before he gets the free pass, I'd say.

Seriously.

Because he has his chip, he can't hurt anyone any more. Buffy knows what she's doing is wrong, she hates Spike but he's what she needs at this time. 

On ‎01‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:35 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

A little thought experiment - remove all the fantasy elements - imagine a story where a detective is dating a serial killer and laughs at his jokes about killing people because "she doesn't take him seriously". Can you honestly take such a story seriously if it at the same time it insists that said detective is a heroic person who knows what she is doing? I can't, even though I like grey characters. Because there isn't really any ambiguity in the story - the character in question is being implausibly and suicidally stupid, while the narrative denies that.

But you can't remove the fantasy, Spike was bitten, he never wanted to become a vamp any more than Buffy chose to become the Slayer. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike was bitten, he never wanted to become a vamp

Justifying Spike solely on the grounds of him being bitten, i.e. not becoming vampire on his own free will, is like justifying serial killers because they had an unhappy childhood or abusive parents. Except for Billy Fordham and his flock from the Sunset Club I didn't see that much people willing to let the vamps bleed 'em dry. After more than 100 years of mayhem and murder, with piles of dead bodies left behind the fact that Spikey "never wanted to become a vamp" is totally irrelevant.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

But you can't remove the fantasy, Spike was bitten, he never wanted to become a vamp any more than Buffy chose to become the Slayer. 

What's that go to do with anything? The no-name vampires that Buffy slays without hesitation didn't want to become vamps either. Yes, there is no exact equivalent in our world to become a vampire but that's not really the point. Since Buffy didn't have any intention of reversing the vampirism process she should have treated Spike as she treated any soulless vampire - with the sharp end of a stake.

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because he has his chip, he can't hurt anyone any more.

That chip all over again. Buffy and the Scoobs didn't know a thing about the chip (especially how long could it function). The Initiative's surgeons knew, but they were either killed during Adam's uprising or went bye bye after the project was cancelled. Then again if I had a strong desire to hurt another person but was unable to do so by myself, I would try my best to find someone else who could and ask him or her to do the dirty job for me. 
 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy knows what she's doing is wrong, she hates Spike but he's what she needs at this time.

That looks like symptoms of either heavy drug addiction or battered wife syndrome. Neither is good or healthy thing I guess. And why of all people Spike has to be someone Buffy needs the most at the moment? You think him trying to sell Buffy "You belong in the shadows... with me" crap is a sure sign of "wanting to help"? Why does it have to be this way? Taking more drugs to battle the drug addiction? Suffer more abuse to deal with the abusive relationship? I don't think that works, you know. I could understand/accept Spuffy if that actually helped and made Buffy feel better somehow... But the thing is, it didn't.

[Jack Shaftoe]

The chip was experimental technology and the Initiative most likely didn't intend to hold the "hostiles" for years, so I doubt these chips were made to last. Plus, the government ordered them made, probably the lowest bidder won the contract and cut as many corners as possible. :) The Scoobies literally putting their lives in the hands of a piece of technology made by people they didn't trust and in all probability never intended to last was just one of the many examples of them taking stupid pills every time the subject of Spike came along. All this after the debacle of Angel losing his soul is just the height of irresponsibility and grossly out of character for the Scoobies.

Quote

Then again if I had a strong desire to hurt another person but was unable to do so by myself, I would try my best to find someone else who could and ask him or her to do the dirty job for me. 

Yes, it's not like the Spike had never used minions. There were so many ways of getting around the chip. Hell, there were even episodes where the narrative clearly suggested Spike could kill people if he were willing to put up with the mother of all headaches.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike was bitten, he never wanted to become a vamp

"First they suck your blood, then you suck their blood.  There's a whole big sucking thing."  Angel and Darla were pretty much consensual victims, Drusilla was mad, and William was depressed and confused, but not entirely without free will in the matter.

28 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The chip was experimental technology and the Initiative most likely didn't intend to hold the "hostiles" for years, so I doubt these chips were made to last

Spike's chip lasts a whopping total of three years and a few months, which isn't even much time compared to Buffy's life-span, and barely a sneeze on Spike's.  And relying on the chip to allow for Spike's continued existence is surely nothing more than a case of kicking the can down the road, and letting somebody else make the decision that Buffy has passed on to them.  In this case, Spike has rendered the issue fairly irrelevant due to his adventures in Africa, but of course Buffy doesn't know this is going to happen in 2001 when she's laughing at his plans to kill her loved ones.

[coffeecoffeecoffee]

The best: the first few seasons. I even love the first one, cheesy camp and all! The worst: most of the last few seasons for me, despite a few standout episodes. 

My favorite ships: Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz, Xander/Cordelia, Spike/Drusilla, Jenny/Giles

My favorite friendships: Buffy/Giles. Buffy/Willow. Buffy/Xander, and sometimes I liked Buffy and Cordelia's reluctant bond, especially since Cordelia, though less sensitive and more ambitious and practical, is a lot like who Buffy could have been in high school if Buffy hadn't been a slayer 

Favorite thing about the show: it still empowers me, inspires me, and makes me smile no matter how bad a day I've had. This was the show that kept me company while most people I knew then were out, and it never failed to capture my heart even once I knew certain episodes well enough to have them memorized. I know that as time passes, there are more and more aspects of it that we now recognize as problematic, but this show will always mean a great deal to me.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:08 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

What's that go to do with anything? The no-name vampires that Buffy slays without hesitation didn't want to become vamps either. Yes, there is no exact equivalent in our world to become a vampire but that's not really the point. Since Buffy didn't have any intention of reversing the vampirism process she should have treated Spike as she treated any soulless vampire - with the sharp end of a stake.

But he's helpless, it would be like killing an prisoner of war?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:52 PM, Halting Hex said:

"First they suck your blood, then you suck their blood.  There's a whole big sucking thing."  Angel and Darla were pretty much consensual victims, Drusilla was mad, and William was depressed and confused, but not entirely without free will in the matter.

Spike's chip lasts a whopping total of three years and a few months, which isn't even much time compared to Buffy's life-span, and barely a sneeze on Spike's.  And relying on the chip to allow for Spike's continued existence is surely nothing more than a case of kicking the can down the road, and letting somebody else make the decision that Buffy has passed on to them.  In this case, Spike has rendered the issue fairly irrelevant due to his adventures in Africa, but of course Buffy doesn't know this is going to happen in 2001 when she's laughing at his plans to kill her loved ones.

No, Angel just caught the eye of the wrong girl in the tavern, Dru caught the eye of the Darla in the street, Darla cried out in her fever and William just bumped into the wrong girl on the street. None of them wanted this, none of them was Ford. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:22 AM, coffeecoffeecoffee said:

The best: the first few seasons. I even love the first one, cheesy camp and all! The worst: most of the last few seasons for me, despite a few standout episodes. 

My favorite ships: Buffy/Angel, Willow/Oz, Xander/Cordelia, Spike/Drusilla, Jenny/Giles

My favorite friendships: Buffy/Giles. Buffy/Willow. Buffy/Xander, and sometimes I liked Buffy and Cordelia's reluctant bond, especially since Cordelia, though less sensitive and more ambitious and practical, is a lot like who Buffy could have been in high school if Buffy hadn't been a slayer 

Favorite thing about the show: it still empowers me, inspires me, and makes me smile no matter how bad a day I've had. This was the show that kept me company while most people I knew then were out, and it never failed to capture my heart even once I knew certain episodes well enough to have them memorized. I know that as time passes, there are more and more aspects of it that we now recognize as problematic, but this show will always mean a great deal to me.

Absolutely, couldn't have put it better myself, the ships are one of the best things about the show. And I think Buffy still holds up pretty darn well, the computers in s1 look a bit dated and it's weird no one has a mobile phone but apart from that it's all good. 

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

No, Angel just caught the eye of the wrong girl in the tavern, Dru caught the eye of the Darla in the street, Darla cried out in her fever and William just bumped into the wrong girl on the street. None of them wanted this, none of them was Ford.

It may not have been a long-planned slowly-unfolding master scheme, the way Ford's was, but they all made the decision, to some extent.  Nobody got their face rubbed in the vampire's blood, forced to suckle against their will.

Quote

LIAM:  Show me your world.

Quote

DRUSILLA: I see what you want. Something glowing and glistening. Something... effulgent.

William is beside himself. Finally someone who understands him.

WILLIAM (sotto): Effulgent.

DRUSILLA: Do you want it?

William has never wanted anything more.

WILLIAM: Oh, yes! (touches her chest) God, yes.

Drusilla looks down for a moment as her face changes and her fangs descend. William reacts, more confused than afraid. She pulls back his shirt collar and buries her fangs in his neck. William cries out in pain but his cries quickly turn to moans of pleasure as Drusilla ends his human existence.

I grant you we don't actually see the change on the girls the way we do with the boys, but still.  They had to make the choice to suck their sires' blood.  That's a certain level of consent, IMO.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Loandbehold]

Liam, William, and

Spoiler

as we saw in Angel, Darla (although she was dying so might not have accepted the Master's offer otherwise)

all chose to become vampires. But can we say the same for Drusilla? Angelus drove her mad. 

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

It may not have been a long-planned slowly-unfolding master scheme, the way Ford's was, but they all made the decision, to some extent.  Nobody got their face rubbed in the vampire's blood, forced to suckle against their will.

I grant you we don't actually see the change on the girls the way we do with the boys, but still.  They had to make the choice to suck their sires' blood.  That's a certain level of consent, IMO.

I say no, they were dying and their sire forced them, they didn't have a clue what was going on or what the consequences would be. 

[Halting Hex]

On 11/2/2018 at 6:09 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Because he has his chip, he can't hurt anyone any more.

"So, you haven't murdered anybody lately?  Let's be best pals!"  —Buffy to Spike, Pangs

Except that was her sarcastic voice, or at least it was supposed to be.  Maybe Joss put a chip in her head?

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

"So, you haven't murdered anybody lately?  Let's be best pals!"  —Buffy to Spike, Pangs

Except that was her sarcastic voice, or at least it was supposed to be.  Maybe Joss put a chip in her head?

Sounded sarcastic to me! They're not friends, even when they're f*ckbuddies but he is useful. 

[lembergwatcher]

OK. here's my very subjective best-to-worst list.

The seasons' finales (from best to worst):

1. Prophecy Girl;

2. Becoming, Part 2;

[gap]

3. Graduation Day, Part 2 and Restless battle for the third place, kicking and screaming;

[very large gap]

4. Grave;

[large gap]

5. The Gift;

6. Chosen.

The seasons' premieres (from best to worst):

1. When She Was Bad;

2. Welcome to the Hellmouth;

[gap]

3. Can't decide between Anne and The Freshman;

[gap]

4. Bargaining;

[gap]

5. Lessons;

6. Buffy Vs. Dracula.

The seasons' penultimate episodes (from best to worst):

1. Primeval;

2. Out of Mind, Out of Sight;

3. Becoming, Part 1/Graduation Day, Part 1;

[gap]

4. The Weight of the World and End of Days, can't decide between the two;

[large gap]

5. Two to Go.

The seventh episodes (from best to worst):

1. Revelations;

2. Angel;

[gap]

3. Lie to Me;

[large gap]

4. Once More, with Feeling;

5. The Inititive;

[gap]

6. Conversations with Dead People;

7. Fool for Love.

[Halting Hex]

Finales: 1 to 7, straight line down.  (With Prophecy Girl coming in at 3rd overall and The "Finale" That Dare Not Speak Its Name scoring 144 out of 144, quality-wise just as much as chronologically. The Gift may be "very pretty crap", but at least it lets Buffy be the hero on the finale of her own show, something neither of the UPHell episodes allowed. )

--------------------------

Premieres:  When She Was Bad: a top 10 overall for the series

Welcome to the Hellmouth: also a Pantheon candidate, even if some of that is just "omg they're so cute!" retro-enjoyment.  Buffy loses her interest "coolness tests" and renewed popularity, simply by a silent meeting with a shy redhead at the water fountain, and throws away her dreams of a normal Slay-free life without a second thought, the moment she sees that the "random girl" whom Thomas is planning to eat is Willow.  Ah, first love… ❤️ 

(large gap)

The Freshman: Joss is in joke-a-palooza mode, getting both repetitive and character-destructive. But the villain is cool and the gang comes together nicely in the end.  Average, but in a nice way.  "Painful nowning process" for the win!

(gap)

Buffy vs. Dracula: not as funny as it wants to be, and awkward because it's trying to fit the characters to the Stoker Dracula framework. (Riley is Jonathan Harker! Giles is Van Helsing! etc.)  And the idea that "hunting" is a term for Buffy's activities that indicates "wrongness" is just stupid (it's in the fucking Slayer description! "Born with the strength and skill to hunt the vampires and stop the spread of their evil"!  FFS) and will, of course, be used as a wedge to promote Spuffyness in the future, so that's annoying.  But I don't hate it like I do the next three, so…

(large gap)

Anne:  fails on so many levels, from the wretched pacing to the ham-handed resets on Xillow and X/C to the useless and gratuitous Ostentatious Tracking Shot to the idiotic idea that Creepy Stalker Oz repeats an entire year of school to sniff around his underage girlfriend (whereas Buffy tests out of her previous year despite small details like being wanted for murder and being a fugitive all summer) and Willow never even notices him blowing off summer school, to the basic fact that the Evil Plan is essentially unworkable and Buffy doesn't save hardly anybody, anyhow.  The teaser is good, as are the Giles/Joyce scene, Buffy's sucking at undercover and "I'm Buffy the Vampire Slayer".  But overall an empty and soppy director's reel.  But hey!  At least it's not a UPN ep. 😉 

Bargaining Part 1:  Willow kills the Baby Jesus, I mean a fawn!  Burn the witch!  Giles decides to sneak away like a thief in the night, on the theory that the Scoobs can handle things on their own, despite the fact that the episode explicitly notes that none of them are old enough to buy beer.  Anya pressures Xander to make a lifelong commitment, since he's 20 already, ffs!  Other than that, the standard boring streeeeetched-out part 1 of a two part episode, as useless as WML1 or Grad Day1.  Pass.

Lessons:  Wood READ BUFFY'S FILE!  He KNOWS she's 21!  He KNOWS she graduated only three years ago!  What's with the fucking "mom hair" joke?  Gah!  And the stupid Courteous Zombies can go fuck themselves, apparently only there so Buffy can tell us she doesn't give a shit about the possible deaths of innocents she failed to save.  (Which was her greatest fear as recently as 4.04) "Carlos" can't act at all and Buffy lets Spike (last seen attempting to rape her and, for all she knows, ready to try it again) fondle her face, while the Courteous Zombies stop attacking so we can have our "romantic" Spuffy moment.  Idiotic Giles-on-horse-fanservice can go jump, too.

Yes, First!Master calling Spike "a pathetic schmuck" will never get old.  But one line doth not a semi-decent episode make.  Especially as Spike apparently never even met Ol' Nest in the first place.

---------------------

Penultimates:

Becoming Part 1: a bit of a mess, and Whistler will never not suck, but so much good stuff!  Origin of Angel, origin of Buffy, [some of] origin of Drusilla!  Incredibly cute B/W tutor scene, leading into arguably the greatest Big Scooby Fight of all!  Xander's Fish Stick Theater, Spike mocks Angel's "big rock", and Buffy falls for it Every Single Time!  All climaxed by one of the great-cliffhangers, setting up even more wonderfulness in part 2

Quote

DOUG PERREN:  You don't want to be surprised?
GILES: Not as a rule, no.

Primeval: a bit of a cheat, since this is essentially the season finale.  A final valentine to the Scoobies, with an elevator shaft scene of eternal beauty.  And I could watch the Adam/Spike scenes on a loop.  Silly doves and stupid non-staking of Spike keep it below the best, but still.

(gap)

Out of Mind, Out of Sight:  a decent MotW and nice character work for Cordelia, but as misplaced as Primeval, as it doesn't really factor into the season-arc, Codex talk aside.  Smidge looks gorgeous, though.

Graduation Day, Part 1:  a pointless stall, never moreso than in that stupid scene where the Mayor comes into the Library to twirl his mustache.  Decent character work on Anya and Wesley, and the Angel/Buffy squabble that Faith interrupts with the arrow is well-done, but Buffy has a Hero's Dilemma that isn't, since all that "drain the blood of a Slayer" talk turns out to be empty hype.  By the middle of Part 2, Angel is fine and Buffy is fine and this episode has been exposed as the waste of space it is.  And we have to "love" how Buffy doesn't take backup or the tranq gun, just so we can get our "kewl" girl-fight.  Which is cool, but even so.

Also, I still hate Xander's sweater. Even Willoz "panicking" can't save this. (And really, if she doesn't understand that he's concerned too, maybe she shouldn't be boinking him?  Non-communication is less cool than it's made out to be, I'm just saying.)

The Weight of the World:  desperate cut-and-paste job of old footage (necessitated by SMG's Australian commitments) and capped by that Endless Boring Morphing Scene where Ben and Glory "talk" despite the fact that the whole season plot depends on their not sharing memories.  But it's the last episode that's essentially about B/W [or any pairing of the Three Musketeers, unless you count Grave as being about Xillow, which IMO is stretching it] and Willow and Bitty Buffy are incredibly cute.  Plus, Buffy kills Dawn, time after time…what's not to like? 😉 

End of This Shit…Almost: lives down to S7 "standards", in many ways.  Caleb unearths the SuperWeapon that defeats him, for no reason.  Buffy half-asses a non-apology at Giles, and since Willow's in the room, that's supposed to count as our B/W "reconciliation" as well. Dawn (likely) killed Miss Kitty, Giles has been making jokes about Xander's permanently disfiguring and painful injury, Xander kidnaps Dawn, Dawn tasers Xander while he's driving, etc.  Tons of wasteful Anya filler (even if there's irony in the girls she torments surviving when Hellbitch herself dies, that doesn't redeem the scene), Buffy "bonds" with Faith by shitting on Those Puny Humans Who Will Never Understand, and the idiot Guardian is still stupid beyond all belief. 

Plus the Lamest Cliffhanger EVER!  Oooh, Spike saw Buffy kiss Angel!  Will this allow the First to turn him against her? I've seen better "suspense" in Kim Possible eps, ffs.

And yet, still better than…

Two to Go: "Truck-driving Magick Momma" Willow commits another murder.  Fucking Jonathan gives the eulogy for Old School Willow, presumably because he's sad he never got to rape her.  This and his being briefly helpful leads to idiots on the boards swooning about how the poor little Murderer/Rapist just wants to be a Scooby and aren't the cast so MEAN not to let him in?  Xander and Anya both mock Andrew for being a virgin, as if that's the problem with Andrew.  (Hey, wasn't Xander once targeted for murder because he was a gullible and desperate virgin?  But he fucks demons now, he's way cooler than that!)  Xander spends the ep groveling for Anya's forgiveness, both for proposing to her and for not marrying her, when you'd think one of those must have been correct, logically.  Buffy steals lines from Spike*, Spike steals lines from Nirvana and Buffy re-uses her Maggie Walsh speech, presumably because Adam preempted her fun two years ago.  Sarah and Aly both look as though they're about to fall asleep, and who can blame them?

Yes, Willow mocking Dawn's crying is awesome ("Mom! Buffy! Tara! Wahhh!") and Giles makes a dramatic entrance, but still.  And why isn't Giles wearing his glasses?  Does SOOPERMagick cure astigmatism?

Oh, and Willow's spell specifically said "Give me strength", so Buffy should have knocked her silly with her superior fighting skills, Willow as helpless to land a punch as Lagos was.  Although hopefully Buffy wouldn't behead her, but I realize that's only 50/50 by now…

*-do we think Buffy actually knows what Spike said to Dru while he was fighting her in Becoming Part 2, rather than this just being cheap plagiarism?  Maybe this is more of their pillow talk, once Spike ran out of HILARIOUS stories about the people he murdered?  Oh, vomit.

------------------------

Number 7s:

Revelations: a perfect bottle ep, from a fine Big Scooby Fight to a record six regular fights, to Gwen Post rocking all the way through, to Xillow cuteness and Willow as the world's best cheerleader.  Buffy nearly comes out of the closet…and Xander nearly comes in his pants when Faith suggests killing Angel.  Not a weak spot anywhere; a Top 10 Episode candidate, easily.

Quote

GWENDOLYN POST, MRS:  Faith, do you know who the Spartans were?

FAITH:  Wild stab, a bunch of guys from Spart?

Oh, Faith…you are an idiot.  But a sexy one, at least.

Lie to Me:  Nicely thematic piece, and Ford's confrontation with Buffy is sheer brilliance.  Loses points for being the first episode to exclude W/X/G from the climax, and Giles's "Lie to Me" speech has been hijacked to serve the "gray morality" crowd's pro-Spuffy bullshit, but still a well-done ep.

(gap)

Angel: David Boreanaz is still learning about this "acting" thing and it's stupid of Buffy to let the Master know where she lives (is Joyce never leaving the house again?  Is that Buffy's plan?)  But it's decent enough in a rudimentary S1 way, and Darla dies, so yippee for that.

Conversations with Dead Plotlines:  a nicely effective mood piece, despite the ridiculous casting of Cassie (whom Willow never even met!), the boring and Spike-fluffing Holden parts, Jonathan being nostalgic for the place that made him suicidal and the absence of Xander.  But the end is the last time the show was effectively scary and Andrew earns my love by killing Jonathan, thankfully.  

Still, when you're all set-up, you get judged on the resolution…and all of this led to nothing but suck, which is why it's behind an episode that featured "wisdom" from the Annoying One.  But at least it has its virtues.  I can rewatch the end again and again…there's not much on UPN I can say that about.

Fool for Bleach:  really awesome technically, from the directing to the integrating the footage with the similar scenes in Darla to Fight Coordinator John Medlen proving he could fill Jeff Pruitt's shoes, after all.  But it's still Spike-whitewashing, it paves the way for Spuffy, it makes the Scoobies into useless clowns, and the "climax" boils down to "Spike can totally kill Buffy with the shotgun (never mind how the chip wouldn't let him point a plastic gun at Xander last year)…but he doesn't because HE WUVS HER SO MUCH!"  Blech.

And of course it's still incredibly stupid that William can't even rhyme "gleaming".  Maybe if I watched the episode on STREAMING video, I could find something REDEEMING…but I doubt it.

(gap)

The Initiative:  I love great Willow/Riley scenes as much as the next person who loves Willow/Riley scenes…but I want to beat the rest of the episode to death with a shovel.  Gotta "love" the Riley Punch Stupid Parker scene, where R/F/G surround the much-smaller Parker like they were the Pack and Poophead was Lance…aren't we supposed to rooting for Riley here? (And of course Parker would NEVER make that stupid "toilet seat" joke; not in a million years.)  And of course Willow seeks sexual validation from her attempted rapist/murderer and Xander is a slapfighting wuss…

…and yet…

Once More, with Spuffy:  …still better than an episode that turns Xander into a deliberate murderer for the sake of a homophobic "joke".  Remember, rape is (sometimes) bad, but GAY rape?  Funny, funny and always funny.  Xander THINKS he's a big man bickering with Anya, but now he's going to be Sweet's "queen"!  He'll have to take it up the ass, just like a GIRL!   Ha-ha-HA!  

Seriously, I'd rather watch Buffy suck face with an unrepentant serial killer.  Oh, wait, that's our "romantic" ending, right.  Fuck off, Joss.

Quote

It could be bunnies, some evil bunnies…

As good an explanation for what happened to the writing as anything else, I suppose.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

The Gift may be "very pretty crap", but at least it lets Buffy be the hero on the finale of her own show, something neither of the UPHell episodes allowed. )

I dare say Buffy's heroism is marred by "I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn" and other shit like that in The Gift. And she doesn't just sit somewhere doing nothing but drinking tequila/staring at the wall/masturbating in the UPHell finales either.

[Halting Hex]

Was Buffy a perfect (or even adequate) tactician in The Gift?  Certainly not.  But still…she took the swan dive, nobody else.

Beats the heck out of letting Xander do the work while Buffy's dropped down a hole, unable to even beat dirt, or standing around watching the sun shine out of Spike's ass magic bling, I say.

[lembergwatcher]

Yes, she took the swan dive. Was it a deliberate decision to sacrifice herself for everyone's sake or the case of suicide (attempt of escape from it all) is another question.

Since Buffy sucked as a character throughout seasons 6 & 7 part of me was glad she wasn't the one to do the job in each season's finales. As much as we may resent the idea of Xander saving everyone in 6.22 (who does that carpenter think he is???), Buffy proved herself unable to do that (because she sucked as a character)... OTOH I'd rather watch the sun shining out of Buffy's little ass, not Spike's.

Edited May 28, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Jazzy24]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Was Buffy a perfect (or even adequate) tactician in The Gift?  Certainly not.  But still…she took the swan dive, nobody else.

Beats the heck out of letting Xander do the work while Buffy's dropped down a hole, unable to even beat dirt, or standing around watching the sun shine out of Spike's ass magic bling, I say.

Xander may not be my favorite character but it was awesome that he got to save the world. It was perfect for Xander to be the one to save Willow. I like that someone besides Buffy was able to save the world and given who was trying to destroy it(Willow)it made sense that it was her oldest friend bringing her back from it all. 

[Halting Hex]

Well, it's not as if Xander's never saved the world before.  I just prefer it when he facilitates Buffy's heroism (Prophecy Girl, Innocence), rather than doing it all himself.   Buffy sucks up a ton of screentime by virtue of being the lead character; if I have to endure Buffy-centric plots, I want Buffy-centric heroics to make up for it.

Grave I could have taken as a once-off, especially given the Xillow resonances noted above.  But couple it with her irrelevance the following season and this meant that I had to endure 44 UPHell episodes of Buffy pouting, whining, shutting her friends out and claiming they could never understand, coddling Spike's rapist ass and giving "Everyone Sucks But Me" speeches, with nothing to show for it.  If I had to sit through all of that, I expected to be paid back with something a little better than "Buffy tells Spike she loves him and watches as his SOOOOOOOOUL saves the day."

But JMO.

(I should point out that Grave sucks for reasons beyond Buffy's irrelevance, although the idea that Buffy doesn't matter in Willow's journey frosts my cupcakes something fierce, I'll allow.  "Let Xander deal with Willow and the next season can focus on Buffy and the people who matter in her life.  Like Spike…and, um, Spike."  Feh.  But there's stuff like how Giles and Buffy laugh at the season-plot [and basically laugh at the audience for being invested in it] and how Giles has this cool plan that depends on Xander saving Willow/the world, and he never tells Xander about it and all the other stuff I've no doubt said a dozen times before.  I just focused on "Buffy is literally weaker than dirt and more useless than Dawn" as a means of showing the dichotomy between Grave and The Gift, but it's not the sum of my hatred critique, not by a very long shot.  And again, JMO.)

[lembergwatcher]

Here's the list of the character-assassinating episodes in my humble (and very subjective) opinion, i.e. episodes in which Buffy and the gang do some bad things, make poor choices, act like assholes/bitches, aren't shown in the best light:

Buffy: School Hard, Innocence, Becoming, Part 1, Dead Man's Party, Beauty & the Beasts, Homecoming, Revelations, Lovers Walk, Amends, Enemies, Graduation Day, Parts 1 & 2, The Harsh Light of Day, New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor, No Place Like Home, Family, Fool for Love, Checkpoint, The Gift, Flooded, Smashed, Dead Things, As You Were, Same Time, Same Place, Selfless, Conversations with Dead People, Sleeper, Never Leave Me, First Date, Get it Done, Storyteller, Lies My Parents Told Me, Empty Places, Touched, End of Days, Chosen.

Decided not to include When She Was Bad due to Buffy's PTSD and Living Conditions, Beer Bad or Normal Again because Buffy didn't act of her own free will back then. And even though I hate the way she treated Riley in season 5, I can cut our Slayer some slack because her mother was in a very bad condition.

Xander: Reptile Boy, Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered, Amends, Gingerbread, The Zeppo, Consequences, Earshot, The Harsh Light of Day, Something Blue, The I in Team, This Year's Girl, The Yoko Factor, Fool for Love, Into the Woods, The Gift, Flooded, All the Way, Once More, With Feeling, Gone, Older and Far Away, As You Were, Entropy, Villains, Two to Go, Same Time, Same Place, Selfless, First Date, Storyteller, End of Days.

The Pack, Buffy Vs Dracula and Replacement aren't included due to Xander acting not of his own free will or magical intervention. Dunno whether it's right to not include Beneath You because of Xander's lack of adequate reaction on Spike.

Willow: Becoming, Part 1, Revelations, Amends, Enemies, Fear, Itself, Pangs, New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor, Fool for Love, Forever, Tough Love, All the Way, Once More, With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Smashed, Wrecked, Entropy, Villains, Two to Go, Potential, Blind Date, Dirty Girls, Chosen.

Had a temptation to include Phases, Wild at Heart and Something Blue, but decided against it.

Giles: The Dark Age, Innocence, Becoming, Part 1, Anne, Dead Man's Party, Beauty & the Beasts, Lovers Walk, Helpless, almost every season 3 episode with Wesley in it (notably Consequences and Enemies), Something Blue, A New Man, This Year's Girl, The Yoko Factor, Family, Shadow, Flooded, All the Way, Once More, with Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Grave, Lessons, Lies My Parents Told Me, End of Days, Chosen.

Band Candy is not included for obvious reasons.

Anya: all of them.

Spike; all of them.

Oz: all of them (well, almost. Wishverse Oz didn't suck).

Edited May 29, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Sally Chantal Pa]

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[lembergwatcher]

Here's a couple of my favorite fight scenes from the show.  Placed in chronological order. 

• Buffy vs Luke in The Harvest;
• Buffy vs the Master in Prophecy Girl;
• The Gang vs Machida-worshipping frat boys in Reptile Boy;
• Xander vs Larry the Pirate in Halloween;
• Kendra vs Angel, Kendra vs Buffy in What's My Line, Part 1;
• Buffy vs Angel at the mall in Innocence;
• Giles vs Angel, Buffy vs Angel at the factory in Passion;
• Library fight scene (the Gang vs Dru & the Boyz) at the end of Becoming, Part 1;
• Buffy vs Angel, Spike vs Dru in Becoming, Part 2;
• Buffy, Angel & Spike vs "a committee" in Lovers Walk;
• Buffy, Angel, Giles & Xander vs Vamp!Willow's boys, Willow vs Anya in Doppelgangland;
• Buffy & Angel fighting with Mayor's goons for the Box of Gavrok in Choices;
• Buffy vs Faith in Graduation Day, Part 1;
• Scooby Gang vs Sunday's Gang in The Freshman;
• Buffy vs Kathy in Living Conditions;
• The Gang vs Hus' warriors in Pangs;
• Buffy vs Faith at Revello Drive in This Year's Girl;
• Buffy vs the knights in Spiral;
• Scooby Gang vs Hellions in Bargaining, Part 2;
• Dawn vs Lori in Him;
• The Gang vs the Bringers in Never Leave Me.

Did I miss something remarkable/important? What are your favorite fight scenes throughout the series?

[lembergwatcher]

And, of course, a couple of my favorite "kicking Spike's skinny ass" scenes. That's the thing that will never get old. Placed in chronological order. What are your favorite "violence against Spike" moments?

• Buffy beating Spike at the end of Halloween;
• Buffy crushing Spike & Drusilla in falling rubble in What's My Line, Part 2 (one of my all-time favorites);
• Xander pummeling Spike in Hush;
• Demons beating Spike at Willy's in Goodbye, Iowa;
• Buffy punching Spike in Real Me;
• Buffy telling Spike he's beneath her in Fool for Love (not a physical violence in the strictest sense of word but still it makes Spikey cry);
• Buffy punching Spike after Dru's and Harmony's exit in Crush;
• April throwing Spike out of the window in I Was Made to Love You (one of my all-time favorites);
• Glory vs Spike in Intervention;
• Buffy vs Spike in Dead Things;
• Buffy & Riley punching Spike in As You Were;
• Xander's fist connecting with Spike's face in Normal Again;
• Xander beating up Spikey once again in Entropy;
• Buffy kicking Spike in the head in Never Leave Me;
• Turok Han brutalizing Spike in Bring on the Night;
• Spike getting thrown through the ceiling in Get it Done;
• Faith vs Spike in Touched.

[Halting Hex]

Too many of those are entwined with Spike-fluffing/white-washing for me to truly love, but a few stand out.

1.  Buffy taking a pause from rescuing Angel to make sure Spikey doesn't get away, What's My Line, part 2.  Such an excellent display of marksmanship/priorities that Buffy rightly gives herself props for it.  ("I'm good.") Yes, you are, you badass.  Don't let the new girl upstage you.

2. April throwing Spike through the window in IWMtLY.  So much for Spike's thinking he can be as sleazy as he wants because she's only a girl.  As Buffy says, I wouldn't trade that memory for anything.

(Should Spike be fooled by a robot?  Wouldn't he notice the complete lack of scent-of-blood coming off of her?)

3. The Sodding Chip™ sending Spike into paroxysms of pain in Doomed when Spike tries to brain Xander with a wrench, with Xander never even knowing it.  Spike isn't the Big Bad any more;  he's not even the kind of scary.

4.  Spike being turned into a pincushion by Chumash arrows in Pangs.  I grant you, a bit sad that none of them can find the heart (no wonder the Spanish kicked their ass, back when), but still a nice visual.

5.  Getting thrown through the ceiling in Get it Done, if only for Kennedy's snark about that being what Spike does best.  Unfortunately not, but it would definitely have improved the series if Spike was to ceilings what Angel was to doors.

6.  "Get the hell away from my daughter!", School Hard.  Yes, it's a bit weak that after spending the whole episode hyping up the New Vampire in Town, he ends up getting beaten by Joyce, of all people.  And his being able to beat a retreat may be considered foreshadowing of Buffy's future failures to erase the skid mark, but getting clonked by the fire axe is a lovely visual, no doubt.

And, also:

Quote

XANDER: I remember…a fight with Spike?  I won, right? Kicked his ass?

WILLOW:  You were very brave.

—Lovers Walk

More desperate hope than accurate account, I'll allow, but too beautiful to allow any factual weakness to tarnish it.  Hail Xander, conqueror of the unconquerable!

Edited August 7, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Should Spike be fooled by a robot?  Wouldn't he notice the complete lack of scent-of-blood coming off of her?

He was too horny and desperate for a shag to pay attention... 

[DisneyBoy]

On 10/31/2018 at 8:35 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

A little thought experiment - remove all the fantasy elements - imagine a story where a detective is dating a serial killer and laughs at his jokes about killing people because "she doesn't take him seriously". Can you honestly take such a story seriously if it at the same time it insists that said detective is a heroic person who knows what she is doing? I can't, even though I like grey characters. Because there isn't really any ambiguity in the story - the character in question is being implausibly and suicidally stupid, while the narrative denies that.

Thank you. This is a big reason why I resent that the show never gave Buffy a fun normal dude to love. She's got major issues to date/love/lust after dudes who want to kill her and kill others. Yes, the show has her notice this...but it's just a cover for the fact that the series wants the "forbidden love" angle, even if it demeans the lead character.

Riley was fine, but he was a commando. Why couldn't Buffy have wanted a guy with whom she could actually have a future? Someone who wasn't violent maybe?

I am watching Angel now and kind of asking myself why. He's a serial killer so I can't really root for him...and I certainly don't root for women to fall for him.

Edited December 16, 2020 by DisneyBoy

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/16/2020 at 4:45 AM, DisneyBoy said:

Thank you. This is a big reason why I resent that the show never gave Buffy a fun normal dude to love. She's got major issues to date/love/lust after dudes who want to kill her and kill others. Yes, the show has her notice this...but it's just a cover for the fact that the series wants the "forbidden love" angle, even if it demeans the lead character.

Riley was fine, but he was a commando. Why couldn't Buffy have wanted a guy with whom she could actually have a future? Someone who wasn't violent maybe?

I am watching Angel now and kind of asking myself why. He's a serial killer so I can't really root for him...and I certainly don't root for women to fall for him.

She has the Slayer darkness? She needs some monster in her man?

[lembergwatcher]

On 12/16/2020 at 6:45 AM, DisneyBoy said:

Why couldn't Buffy have wanted a guy with whom she could actually have a future? Someone who wasn't violent maybe?

But ordinary guys didn't go to Africa to get their souls back for Buffy...

On 12/18/2020 at 9:21 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

She needs some monster in her man?

Buffy never said that.

[Halting Hex]

5 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

But ordinary guys didn't go to Africa to get their souls back for Buffy...

Even more importantly, they didn't go to Africa by motorcycle.  Let's not sell Spike's achievements short, lol.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

But ordinary guys didn't go to Africa to get their souls back for Buffy...

Buffy never said that.

Spike did. 

18 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Even more importantly, they didn't go to Africa by motorcycle.  Let's not sell Spike's achievements short, lol.

I figure he either caught a boat or paid for magic transportation?

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike did.

I know. But just because Spike says something doesn't mean it's true or it has to be that way.

Edited December 21, 2020 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/21/2020 at 3:38 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I know. But just because Spike says something doesn't mean it's true or it has to be that way.

True, he lies a lot. 

[Halting Hex]

Continuing that "excavation of things I wrote in 2004" trend from that old trivia-game board (see my recent post in the thread for The Zeppo), I see they did something we haven't done here, so I thought I'd bring it over.

Someone had us name our favorite episodes by number.  Different from ranking all the eps of one particular order…you don't have to decide if you think Pangs or Lovers Walk is more overrated (hmm, Joss has Buffy let Spike walk free even though he held W/X hostage, or Joss has Spike be the mouthpiece for excusing genocide?  Tough call…), you just have to name your favorite episode 8 (or whichever).

Here are my 2004-vintage choices:

Quote

1.  When She Was Bad*
2.  Some Assembly Required
3.  Faith, Hope, & Trick
4.  Teacher's Pet (mmm, Teacher's Pet…)
5.  Homecoming (narrowly)
6.  Halloween
7.  Lie to Me
8.  I Robot, You Jane
9.  The Wish
10. What's My Line, Part 2
11. Ted
12. Prophecy Girl
13. Blood Ties
14. If you have to guess, shame on you
15. Consequences (narrowly)
16. Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered
17. see 14
18. Killed by Death (maintains embarrassing weak spot for Intervention, though)
19. Choices
20. The Prom
21. Becoming, Part 1
22. Becoming, Part 2  

The asterisk is to note that while I consider WSWB the superior ep, I have a brick-load of nostalgic feelings for Welcome to the Hellmouth.

19 years later, I wonder what I was thinking about wrt 5.13; I might put that behind Surprise, The I in Team, or even The Killer in Me nowadays.  (Or even all three.) I do love large parts of Doomed to a great degree, even if Ted is probably objectively superior.  And I'm not sure if my preferring The Prom to The Yoko Factor is really anything beyond an anti-Graduation Day vote, my wanting to claim 3.20 as the real end for that season.

But overall, interesting to look at.  Feel free to make a similar list of your own "all-star season", should you choose.