Best and Worst of Buffy

[amensisterfriend]

Widely Unloved Episodes that I Adore...or at least mildly dislike :):

 

Hee---I meant 'like', not dislike...fortunately, it seems like you managed to see your way past my stupid typo :) 

 

 

 

I have a bit of a soft spot for Family, even though I don't think on anything close to an objective scale it's a good episode.

 

So you know I am really, REALLY not an S5 fan, but, oddly enough, that's one of the few s5 episodes I'd ever rewatch! 

 

 

 

I pretty much love S2 straight through, so I never get when people really don't like some of those episodes.

 

I'll take it a step further and say that I actually find a lot of those campier, goofier S2 episodes more rewatchable than many of the bleaker (albeit exceptionally well done) angstfest episodes. 

 

 

 

I will still rewatch FFL, but overall: meh.

 

ITA. And it's actually the type of episode I'd normally love, but it never quite worked for me. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[joelene]

Generally liked I'm meh about:

When She Was Bad

Lie To Me

Consequences (I think this is generally liked?)

Enemies

Fool For Love

Generally disliked I like a lot:

Some Assembly Required (tho it seems this episode might be pretty well liked)

Reptile Boy

Go Fish

Dead Man's Party

Gingerbread

Living Conditions (I LOVE Kathy)

Where The Wild Things Are

Listening To Fear

Doublemeat Palace (you heard me)

Him

[amensisterfriend]

I'm kind of stunned by the choice of Afterlife here, but this list did get me thinking about how I'd pick and rank my own top 25! 

 

http://armchairc.blogspot.com/2009/05/25-best-and-five-worst-buffy-episodes.html

[cheezwhiz346]

I was also kind of surprised by the hate for 'As You Were.' I actually don't mind Riley there, or his little 'wheel' speech to Buffy, though I can see why it grates with some as condescending. I also definitely don't like that (I assume) he was brought back like this by the writers to kind of avenge his character (like, wasn't her running after the helicopter in Into the Woods enough? We get it, writers, you think Riley's awesome and Buffy should never had let such a catch go). When I can separate myself from that, though--which for some unknown reason I can for 'As You Were'--I actually like the ep. I think it's partly because I like Sam. I don't think she's perfect, honestly, I just think she's mature, and Buffy has every right to feel totally petty about her and what happened, and that could be why Riley and Sam seem so perfect in the ep, because we're seeing it through the worldview of s6, which was a dark place. But really they're just two people in a good place in their lives who have been good for each other and have helped each other grow. It happens. Apparently I had more thoughts on this episode than I thought. :)

[Smug47]

My season ranking goes: 3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 6, 7. The first three seasons, ending with graduation, encapsulated Buffy's High School Years, which I enjoyed a lot more than Buffy's College (and workforce) Years (4-7). There are definitely episodes I enjoy from each of the latter seasons, but the character development and enjoyable moments in the first three were what ranks it highest in my book.

 

Episodes I love (top 10?)

1. I Only Have Eyes For You. Good lord, I love this episode. The role reversal, the doomed love story, the acting by both SMG and DB...it just all works, and for some reason it's the first episode that comes to mind when I think of Buffy.

2. Halloween. It's got some issues, like Buffy trying to mold herself into her vision of Angel's ideal woman, but it makes the list simply due to Willow. Willow loves who she is, herself, and the scene where Oz sees her for the first time is great.

3. The Wish. Another stellar episode. Dark dark dark, and I love seeing a Buffy who didn't have the support of Giles and the Scoobys. 

4. The Prom. This episode was great, due to the character interactions more than the villans. I loved the Class Protector gift and that it shows up in Season 4 when Sunday tries to break it. I loved Buffy's attitude: you're going to go and have a good time if I have to kill every person in the world for you to do it!

5. Graduation Day (pt 1 and 2): Holy moly. Buffy and Faith's fight, the Mayor finally snapping and trying to kill Buffy, the final graduation ceremony and Angel's exit. Perfection all the way around.

6. Hush: Duh.

7. Restless: a confusing and rewarding episode that explores each Scooby's inner hopes and fears. The first time I saw this, I hated it, but now on subsequent rewatches I am fascinated by the layers given to each character. And the cheese man makes an appearance!

8. I Was Made To Love You/The Body: I group these two together because of the cliffhanger at the end of the first that leads into the second. IWMTLY is great, mostly due to that last scene between Buffy and April in the park, and because it led to the creation of the Buffybot. The Body is obviously a masterpiece, showing grieving unvarnished. It was so shocking and so hard to grasp that Joyce simply died naturally, not supernaturally, and there was nothing her powerful daughter could have done. So heartbreaking.

9. Tabula Rasa: a welcome bit of relief in an otherwise pitch black season, which of course leads into more heartbreak. I liked that everyone got to be someone else, and sort of revealed themselves anyway. Giles and Spike thinking they're father and son ("Randy Giles?!") will always be awesome.

10. Selfless: An amazing episode, starring Anya. Emma Caulfield shines in an episode full of humor and sadness. Her backstory was a little too late for me, but I welcomed it with open arms, and I loved that she truly felt remorse and offered her life up for her actions. Up to this point, Anya had been naggy and one note, and I was hoping for more development into her character, but it wasn't in the cards. Miss you, Anya! 

[amensisterfriend]

5. Graduation Day (pt 1 and 2): Holy moly. Buffy and Faith's fight, the Mayor finally snapping and trying to kill Buffy, the final graduation ceremony and Angel's exit. Perfection all the way around.

 

I know, right?! After just rewatching, this might be my pick for the series' very best episode...though, to be fair, I feel that way about several different episodes :) 

 

 

 

1. I Only Have Eyes For You. Good lord, I love this episode. The role reversal, the doomed love story, the acting by both SMG and DB...it just all works, and for some reason it's the first episode that comes to mind when I think of Buffy.

 

I really adore this one as well and think it's a bit underrated. 

 

It's funny how my opinions change with repeated viewings and probably my own current frame of mind. I liked S3 a lot more this time around and liked S4 a bit less.

 

You inspired me try to narrow my own list down to 10! As of today, the 10 episodes I'm taking to my desert island (an island conveniently equipped with a large screen TV and DVD player), in chronological order:

 

1. Nightmares

2. Halloween  

3. Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered

4. Go Fish (...don't ask. It defies reason!) 

5. Becoming 

6. The Wish

7. The Zeppo 

8. Doppelgangland 

9. Graduation Day 

10. Restless 

 

...Can you tell I'm just SLIGHTLY biased in favor of the earlier seasons?! ;) It pained me not to include more from S1---and at least a few more S1 episodes would make my top 20---but while it's just such a consistently enjoyable season for me and in many ways my favorite, it just doesn't have quite as high highs as S2 and S3 do for me. And while S5-S7 certainly have moments that are well worth watching for me, I don't love even the very best of those seasons as much as even the comparatively average episodes from earlier seasons. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Smug47]

Amen, sister friend. The show was really at its peak in season 3, and if it had somehow ended in that season, I think it would have been considered even more of a classic than it is now. Joyce's death was heartbreaking and awful, but I sort of dimmed in my enthusiasm for the show after that. I didn't want to see Buffy struggle to be a parent when she didn't really have any practical real world skills, and it got even worse when she came back from the dead. They could have made her a cop or an underworld enforcer or something, or even had her Dad show up and take Dawn, but no. It had to be the most depressing storyline possible in a show that always had some levity to it. The first few seasons used their monsters as metaphors for life's issues, but the later seasons shoved those issues in your face. I got really tired of Buffy's serious grimace, is what I'm trying to say. 

However, there are enough bright spots in the latter seasons to save them from being totally bad. Episodes like Once More.. and Conversations With Dead People were really good, and made the show bearable. I do wish that Oz would have stayed, even though I loved Willow and Tara's relationship. 

[amensisterfriend]

Joyce's death was heartbreaking and awful, but I sort of dimmed in my enthusiasm for the show after that. I didn't want to see Buffy struggle to be a parent when she didn't really have any practical real world skills, and it got even worse when she came back from the dead.

 

Oh my gosh, YES! I've rambled about this in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but I've always held the UO that the show got relentlessly depressing in S5, not S6. We have Buffy dropping out of school, relinquishing her last tie with the "normal" age-appropriate activities she had hoped to pursue in order to become a put upon caretaker before her time; Joyce's awful prolonged illness and, just as you think she recovered, sudden death; Riley becoming 'dark' and then everyone, including Buffy herself, blaming Buffy for driving him away; the nonstop fretting and angsting over Dawn, Spike's creepy infatuation (which I found more creepy than amusing---and this is coming from someone who loved him in S2 and S4!), etc.  Buffy is almost as depressed through much of this season as she is in S6 and S7, at least IM(U!)O. And, oh yeah, the season ends with Buffy DYING. Suffice it to say I find S5 just as grim as the far more widely despised S6. There was plenty of angst in earlier seasons, yes, but as you noted, it was counterbalanced by more humor, joy and just plain fun. 

 

They could have made her a cop or an underworld enforcer or something

 

I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of Buffy as a police detective. Fanfic, anyone?! 

[amensisterfriend]

So now that a lot of time has elapsed---enough to allow for a lot of new Buffy fans and for many 'old' Buffy fans to change our minds---how would you guys rank all seven season from your favorite to least favorite?! No ties allowed, of course ;) And which 10-15 episodes would you name as your all-time favorites, or at least the ones you find yourselves wanting to rewatch most often? 

[Delphi]

I actually enjoy season seven. It had some of my favorite episodes in it. I loved Help.

I think the beginning was very good. It got kind of annoying midway through with all the potential nonsense, but even then there were episodes like Showtime that I liked. Plus Conversations with Dead People. I think the last batch of episodes were fun because I love Faith.

There were comedic moments and sad moments.

I really enjoyed Dawn as a character for the first time. I think the only episode I truly hate is First Date. Possibly Storyteller.

I think it unfairly gets a bad rap just because people hated the potentials, Kennedy and Andrew.

[Bitterswete]

I think the beginning was very good. It got kind of annoying midway through with all the potential nonsense, but even then there were episodes like Showtime that I liked. Plus Conversations with Dead People.

 

While I thought early season 7 was enjoyable (especially compared to season 6), I really don't consider any of the episodes great. And I think I liked them more when I first saw them because, coming off of season 6, they seemed like a breath of fresh air. But, now, they seem kind of "meh" to me.

 

Also, I didn't care much for what many consider the best eps of that season. "Conversations with Dead People," for example. (It's not a terrible ep, but I don't think it's particularly great either.) And the finale. (Which felt really empty and unearned after the eps leading up to it.) 

 

I think it unfairly gets a bad rap just because people hated the potentials, Kennedy and Andrew.

 

Actually, when I think about the things I disliked about season 7, none of those three things are on my list. I thought Andrew was amusing (although I could see why some found him annoying). And while I didn't love the Potentials (or Kennedy), I didn't loathe any of them enough for it to make me hate the whole season.

 

I just don't think season 7 was very good, and for reasons that had nothing to do with Andrew, Kennedy or the Potentials. (Except that the Potentials, for example, were handled as badly as a lot of other things that season.)

Edited August 28, 2015 by Bitterswete

[BaseOps]

So now that a lot of time has elapsed---enough to allow for a lot of new Buffy fans and for many 'old' Buffy fans to change our minds---how would you guys rank all seven season from your favorite to least favorite?! No ties allowed, of course ;) And which 10-15 episodes would you name as your all-time favorites, or at least the ones you find yourselves wanting to rewatch most often? 

 

That's so tough. I started watching Buffy when I was much too young to understand it, and I'm a lot older now and still love the show. As it stands, overall, I'd say my favourite seasons are: 

 

3, 2, 6, 5, 4, 7, 1. 

 

Favourite episodes: 

 

Surprise / Innocence 

Passion 

Becoming Pt. 1 & 2

Band Candy 

Earshot

Graduation Day Pt. 1 & 2

The Harsh Light of Day 

Hush

Restless

The Body

Once More, With Feeling

Normal Again

Conversations With Dead People

Dirty Girls 

 

(Narrowing it down was harder than I thought. Tons of my favourites got cut.) 

Edited September 30, 2015 by BaseOps

[Sandman87]

Pivot did a "best of Buffy" marathon several times over the weekend, which got me thinking that there had to be a forum around here somewhere, so here I am.

Seasons:

3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 6, 7

Regarding the marathon, which consisted of roughly 8 episodes: It's telling that they didn't include anything after "Hush", meaning that their "best of" came entirely from the first half of the series. This meant that there was no Dawn, no Kennedy, no Giles turning into an idiot, no magic=drugs, and so on, and so on, and so on. Naturally they included the Halloween episodes, but those were good, so I won't complain.

I hadn't watched the show for years and years, but it's nice to see that the good parts are exactly as good as I remember them being. Which implies that the same is also true for the bad parts, unfortunately.

[Loandbehold]

Pivot did play both Once More with Feeling, Tabula Rasa, and Conversations with Dead People yesterday. I'm not sure if it was a "best of" so much as episodes with more horror-type elements. OMwF having a demon that had an effect on all our characters.

[Sandman87]

I stand corrected. I didn't catch those three or see them in the listings, which is a shame since I'd like to watch "Once More With Feeling" again.

[amensisterfriend]

Season 1 has so many bests for me. I know it often lands near the bottom of many people's seasons rankings list, and objectively I understand why, but it's just the one I find myself wanting to rewatch the most---and not just because it's the shortest and therefore requires less of a commitment :) The Scoobies were just so lovable to me then, and I really love watching the Core Four's friendships form. There was just this humor, energy and joy despite (because of?!) the admitted cheesiness and clunkiness, and I'm kind of at a stage where I'm relieved to avoid the angst and more serious issues that we get in the subsequent seasons. I also think some of the monster-of-the-week stuff is really underrated. Weirdly enough, this is also the season where I see the most chemistry between Buffy and Angel---and it's the only one where Willow and the actress who plays her delights me far more than she annoys me! I've even grown far more appreciation for the Master as a Big Bad. 

[sweetcookieface]

I want to join in on the fun!

 

My season rankings would go something like this: 3, 4, 2, 5, 6, 1 (HUGE GAP), 7. (If I were to group them in tiers, it would be something like 3/4, 2/5/6, 1, 7.)

 

Seasons 2 and 3 have the best overall arcs and Big Bads. The only reason I don't rank Season 2 higher is because I don't love the episodes as much as I do some of the later ones. Season 3 is just consistently strong (the only episode I dislike is Beauty and the Beasts). Season 4 and 5 are more inconsistent, but the episodes I love, I really love. Actually, I could probably say the same for Season 6. I think the first half ranks up there with the best seasons (OMWF is my favorite Buffy episode and Tabula Rasa might make my Top 5), and the second half isn't all bad (Normal Again, Dead Things, Older & Far Away, Entropy). Unlike a lot of people, though, I detest the finale and the whole Dark Willow arc (not conceptually, but the execution - I feel like it just got way too over-the-top). Season 1 is meh; some of the episodes are decent (The Pack, Puppet Show), but I hardly ever have the urge to rewatch. Season 7 is the only season I actively dislike. It wasn't just the preposterous plot - I feel like the whole tone of the show shifted to the point where it wasn't even recognizable as the poignant, witty show I had grown so attached to. It was just... generic. All the episodes blur into each other for me.  I've seen most Buffy episodes (or parts of them) more times than I can count, but I haven't rewatched Season 7 since the original airing, apart from 2 or 3 episodes (Conversations with Dead People, Selfless, Him). Maybe I wouldn't hate it as much now that I have more distance?

 

Re: top episodes, I feel like different episodes fulfill different needs for me. I can appreciate the artistry and emotional resonance of an episode like The Body or Passion, but the episodes I find myself rewatching the most tend to be the lighter, funnier ones. Anyway, I don't know if I can come up with a definitive favorites list, but here are some episodes that come to mind:

 

Becoming I/II (S2)
The Zeppo (S3)
The Prom (S3)
Doppelgangland (S3)
Earshot (S3)
Graduation Day I/II (S3)
Pangs (S4)
Something Blue (S4)
Hush (S4)
This Year’s Girl/Who Are You (S4)
Restless (S4)
Fool for Love (S5)
The Gift (S5)
OMWF (S6)
Tabula Rasa (S6)

 

Honorable Mentions: Passion (S2), Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered (S2), Homecoming (S3), Living conditions (S4), A New Man (S4), Crush (S5), The Body (S5), Triangle (S5), Intervention (S5), Bargaining I/II (S6), Conversations with Dead People (S7)

 

In general, I appreciate the goofy misfires (e.g., Bad Eggs, Inca Mummy Girl, Beer Bad) more than the blandness of Season 7. I remember reading a Buffy episode ranking on Buzzfeed a while back and was shocked that the bottom slots weren't just filled with Season 7 (apart from 3-4 episodes).

Edited February 7, 2016 by sweetcookieface

[amensisterfriend]

If you guys had to name just 2-3 favorite episodes from each season, which would they be?! And what about the 2-3 LEAST favorites from each season? 

[GreenScreenFX]

BEST

Season 1:

Welcome to the Hellmouth--- I can not leave the 1st episode off, it started the greatest show ever

Angel

Prophesy Girl

Season2:

Innocence

Passion

Becoming 2

Season 3:

Band Candy

Lovers Walk

Dopplegangland

Earshot

Prom

Graduation 2

(I know I picked too many, so I will forget this season in the "sucks list")

Season 4:

Hush

Something Blue

Who Are you?

Season 5:

Checkpoint

The Body

The Gift

Season 6:

Once More with Feeling

Tabula Rasa

Season 7:

Conversations with Dead People

Chosen

SUCKS

Season 1:

Teachers Pet

I Robot

Season 2:

IncaMummy girl

Bad Eggs

Season 3:

the good ones canceled out the bad ones

Season 4:

Beer Bad

Superstar

Season 5:

Shadow

Season 6:

Double Meat Palace

Normal Again

Season 7:

Every episode not mentioned in the above.

Edited March 12, 2016 by GreenScreenFX

[Smad]

Seasons:

2

3

4

1

 

 

THE END

 

I don't care for the alternate universe that starts with S5. Canon is superior to anything from there so I'm sticking to my Season choices.

[GreenScreenFX]

Ok Michele Tractenberg..... The way she pronounced "monks" ....... I can never undo that.....in my head I will always say it the wrong way.

[ByTor]

"Maunks"

[GreenScreenFX]

I will forever hear her version.... Drives me crazy

It's like monk,...mawnk... I don't know..... I cringe every time.

Back in the TWoP (live air) days there was a word SMG said that used o bug me.... I don't remember now

I think it was "ok"

No that's stupid.... It was something a lot of people commented on..... Anyone?

[VCRTracking]

Learning that they originally conceived of Dawn as being 12 years old but they cast 14 year old Michelle Trachtenberg explained what was the problem with the character for me. A lot of her behavior and actions I think I would have forgiven if she were 12. She would still been irritating but it would have been appropriate. Having a 14 made Dawn seem ridiculously immature and even more bratty.Asl

 

Also I can't believe the guy who played Ben is now Frank on How To Get Away With Murder!

 

Saw something about Tony Robbins and I immediately thought of that great joke where Spike is being recruited by Adam and he says:

"You're like Tony Robbins if he was a big, scary, Frankenstein-looking...you're exactly like Tony Robbins!"

[peaceout]

So, in light of my recent viewing of the show (for the first time evarr), here are my favourites:

Favourite Seasons: Tie between Season Three and Five.

Favourite Season Three eps: Lover's Walk, The Wish, Amends, The Zeppo, Dopplegangland, Choices, The Prom, Graduation Day 1 & 2

Favourite Season Five eps: No Place Like Home, Family, Fool For Love, Checkpoint, The Body, Forever, Tough Love, Spiral, The Gift

Second Favourite Season: Season Two comes in a very close second.

Favourite Season Two eps: Some Assembly Required, School Hard, Halloween, Surprise, Innocence, BB&B, Passion, IOHEFY, Becoming 1 & 2

After these three seasons, I think Season Four was probably the one I ended up all out enjoying the most. Favourite eps from the season: Fear Itself, Pangs, Something Blue, Hush, Who Are You, This Year's Girl, The Yoko Factor, Restless

Season Six follows. Favourite eps: Bargaining 1 & 2, Afterlife, OMWF, Tabula Rasa, As You Were, Two to Go, Grave

Season 7 after that. Favourite eps: Lessons, Beneath You, Same Time Same Place, Selfless, Him, CWDP, Dirty Girls, End of Days, Chosen

I hate calling any season my 'least' favourite because I enjoyed them all in their own right but Season One was still a little rough, so it gets the not so enviable title. Favourite eps: Welcome to the Hellmouth, Harvest, Angel, Prophecy Girl

[Iknewyoucoulddoit]

I'm so sad that I discovered this site so late, but hopefully a few Buffy fans are still around! 

Season order: 5, 3, 2, 1, 7, 4, 6

Four favorite female characters in no order: Buffy, Dawn, Tara, Willow (especially early Willow)

Four favorite male characters: Giles, Oz, Spike, Angel (but I loved him much more on his own show)

Character I love who most don't: Dawn! I tend to be drawn to extremely emotional characters, I find the issues re. her actual identity very interesting, and I love how much she cares and tries

Favorite Big Bad: The Mayor is first, Glory is second, and I didn't love the other big bads enough to name them here. :)

Favorite friendships: Giles/Buffy, Willow/Buffy, Tara/Dawn, Willow/Xander, Giles/Anya  

[voiceover]

Something Blue.  Pretty much laps the  field for me.  Hilarious, plus a light-hearted take on the poorly-written disaster that was the Buffy/Spike consummation. ("And can we have the kind of flowers Angel would have wanted??")

[Glory]

I just had a mini-marathon thanks to the 20th anniversary celebration and I supposed I watched what I consider to be some of the best Buffy episodes.

Season 2: School Hard (which I just now, 20 years later, realized was Die Hard but in a school. I am slow)

Season 3: Band Candy

Season 4: Something Blue

Season 6: Once More with Feeling and Tabula Rasa

If I'd had more time I'd have added in Fool For Love. However, looking through season 7, I couldn't find one episode I'd consider "best of." That made me sad. 

[taanja]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2015 at 6:34 PM, Smug47 said:

9. Tabula Rasa: a welcome bit of relief in an otherwise pitch black season, which of course leads into more heartbreak. I liked that everyone got to be someone else, and sort of revealed themselves anyway. Giles and Spike thinking they're father and son ("Randy Giles?!") will always be awesome.

Tabula Rasa! Plus everyone found out their real names EXCEPT Buffy (Joan) and Spike (Randy)!!! And Spikes little rant about a vampire with a soul and Buffy's reply-- "A vampire with a soul? how lame is that!" will never not make me laugh. God! Good times!

[Glory]

I think you have to take Tabula Rasa in response to all the episodes surrounding it. It really was a bit of levity in a really heavy episodic arc. And I think some of it is that the cast was obviously having a field day during filming and that shows and comes through on the screen. The Anya/Giles pairing was inspired and cracks me up every time. 

[Smad]

On 3.4.2017 at 11:00 PM, taanja said:

"A vampire with a soul? how lame is that!" will never not make me laugh. God! Good times!

Proof positive to me that the 'Spike gets a soul' story was not planned by the S6 creative team. Or that Whedon hadn't told anyone his plan.

[PepperPack]

Honestly I've watched BtVS so many times, I can't put my favorite seasons in order. But I can say I always loved Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. Never really got into Buffy/Riley. Guess my favorite season now that I think about it would have to be Season 3. And every time I watch "The Prom", I cry. I mean just about boo-hoo out loud!!! I start as soon as she comes in.

[Willowy]

The Prom is one of BtVS's perfect episodes. It has the love stuff, her sacrificing so her friends can have their perfect high school dance for once, Giles' expression when she arrives and nods to let him know she got the devil dogs... the class protector award... and one of my favorite moments, when she pulls out her prom dress and yanks the clip out of her hair. Like, hell yeah I saved the world, again, but I ain't missing my prom, Angel be damned. 

Then... he shows up in the tux and Giles' "Every now and then..." as he spies Angel's arrival.

AUGGGH!! I melt, bawl, and die every time. Plus, funny Wesley and hot Cordy. "Well, duh!"

Perfect episode.

[Jazzy24]

On 4/20/2017 at 4:37 PM, Willowy said:

The Prom is one of BtVS's perfect episodes. It has the love stuff, her sacrificing so her friends can have their perfect high school dance for once, Giles' expression when she arrives and nods to let him know she got the devil dogs... the class protector award... and one of my favorite moments, when she pulls out her prom dress and yanks the clip out of her hair. Like, hell yeah I saved the world, again, but I ain't missing my prom, Angel be damned. 

Then... he shows up in the tux and Giles' "Every now and then..." as he spies Angel's arrival.

AUGGGH!! I melt, bawl, and die every time. Plus, funny Wesley and hot Cordy. "Well, duh!"

Perfect episode.

I loved the Xander and Cordelia moments we got in that episode, I loved them so much. 

[Halting Hex]

6 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Season 7, many old faces return and we have a happy ending.

The loss of Sunnydale, Xander's eye, Anya, Spike (essentially) and a good chunk of the Potentials (Annabel, Eve, Chloe, Molly, Dianne, Amanda, Chao An) qualifies as a "happy ending"?  I mean, I don't mind losing anything after the first two, but it still seems a bit much to call it "happy", but JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

1.  Season 3, pretty much perfect, Faith, the Mayor, the series works best in high school and we have possibly the best combination of the Scoobs we will see, all told it's a joy. 

2.  Season 2, Spike, Dru and Angelus, the series finds its' stride in no uncertain terms, it falls a little short of 3 because it has some earlier weak eps whereas 3 hit them for six every time.

3. Season 7, controversial choice I know but I like it, Faith's back, Dawn's grown up and we have a wonderful ending 

4. Season 5, Glory is a kick in the head, little Dawnie makes her first appearance, Tara comes into her own and there are some killer stand out eps

5. Season 4, Is okay, Riley never really works and Adam is a stupid enemy. We say hello to Tara and Anya becomes part of the team

6. Season 1, early days but enjoyable, eps 1, 2, 7 and 12 are great but the rest largely filler. 

7. Season 6, as I've seen from the lack of response to the ep reviews just depressing, some great single eps such as OMWF or Tabula Rusa but doesn't make up for the overall tone. 

[lembergwatcher]

1. Season 2, of course. Even despite Xordelia & Willoz. Even despite Spike. Almost all eps are great, well except 3, 15, 16, 19 & 21.

2. Season 1. I love the early days of the Scoobie Gang when B, W & X were young and unspoiled, and no one/nothing stood between them. Buffy from season 1 is probably my favorite Buffy.

3. Season 4. Oz's departure is quite a good reason to love it IMO (first three eps suck though, and so do Xanya and B & W leaving X behind with the whole college thing) and Season 3 (I love the atmosphere, love the overall plot, love the Fluke. OTOH some of the plot twists are quite disturbing. And I hate Amends to this very day). Still can't decide between the two seasons - hence the same place.

4. Season 5 (some good moments despite the idiotic concept and the worst possible way of introducing Dawn. Also Spike takes more and more screen time, which is rather depressing, and there are few disturbing signs of Buffy's future bitchiness. It took them four years to come from "I don't want to die" to "Death is your gift" after all);

5. Season 7. Quite a promising concept which unfortunately got terribly mishandled. All those attempts to mimic the first two seasons look very pathetic and scream "we've run out of ideas". I can somehow tolerate eps 4, 6, 11, 12, 15, 18 & 19. Other than that? Total disappointment. And the ending, it truly sucked. And I don't hate the Potentials 'cause they were the season's least problem. Also, quoting one of the participants of our forum, by the time Sunnydale collapsed "I loved syphilis more than Buffy Summers".

6. Season 6. Total departure from the show's original concept, i.e. crap. There are few exceptions, of course (ep 1-2, 17, 22), but... Xanya wedding affair, Spuffy, Junkie Willow, The Trio, Giles the Dork, estranged Scoobies (too much shit for one season, you know)... Apparently it was an attempt to kill the remaining good things about Buffy. The writers should have thought about writing good stories, not making Buffy's life suck even more than it already had.

[Halting Hex]

I believe this is covered in the "Best and Worst of Buffy" thread.  Merge, please?

2

1

(slight gap)

3

4

(large gap)

5

(interstellar, cosmic-sized gap)

(somebody in the other thread had a great joke about what goes here…test patterns, reruns of My Mother the Car, etc.)

7

6

Also, lemberg, you left out S3.  Which given your adoration for some parts of that season, I find ironic.

(Also, what's wrong with Becoming, Part 1, I ask? I disagree with your dislike for Phases and BB&B due to 'ship preferences, but I at least understand that.  But 2.21 doesn't have that issue.)

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Also, lemberg, you left out S3.  Which given your adoration for some parts of that season, I find ironic.

No I didn't. It's just, the seasons 4 & 3 got the same place (the third, you may read that passage again), because I still can't decide which of them is better/worse for me.

As for 2.21... First, I'm not into Angel-centrism and all those flashbacks. Then I don't like the way Xander (the only person still able to think straight at that moment) got shouted down and was called some nasty things behind his back just for voicing the unpopular opinions. And what I find even disgusting to some extent is the way our Buffy, determined to kill Angelus in order to avenge Jenny's death since Passion, went back to her old drooling for her baby seal-faced undead boyfriend self after finding out about Ritual of Restoration. Thus showing perfectly clear that neither Jenny nor any other innocent victim killed by Angelus after he lost his soul mattered to Buffy, burt her own feelings.

Suffice to say I don't like most seasons' penultimate eps (seasons 1 & 4 being the few exceptions).

[Halting Hex]

Whoops, missed the joint citation.  (It was the "1" through "6" numbering that did me in; if I had a tie, I would have put "T3-4" or some such, just so the worst of the worst could have its well-"earned" rating of "7".  But that's just me.)

And I don't know…it's true that Xander didn't get the best reception for "Way I see it, you just want to forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you can have your boyfriend back", at the time.  But at the end of the day, I'm so glad he said it, just so that when Little Miss Ego (name also from this ep :) ) tries to pull this crap again in Revelations ("But you have to believe me, if I thought Angel was going to hurt anyone—"), X is already on record as having been on the right side of history, here.

That said, I do understand that you're protective of Xander, just as I am of Willow.  So I get where you're coming from.  I do try to judge the eps in a larger context, though;  IMO, Flooded blows as television, not merely as a "Willow is so CRA-ZEE!  Thank God Buffy has Spike!" pile of vileness and character assassination.  So I still appreciate "It's a big rock.  I can't wait to tell my friends.  They don't have a rock this big." in 2.21…even if it comes from the exact same asshole who will "joke" about "I could probably thin the herd a bit" (and Buffy smiles at the idea of his murdering her friends) 71 episodes later.   One works for me, and one (really, really) doesn't.  "Rank arrogant amateur" slurs aside.

But again, JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:24 PM, lembergwatcher said:

1. Season 2, of course. Even despite Xordelia & Willoz. Even despite Spike. Almost all eps are great, well except 3, 15, 16, 19 & 21.

2. Season 1. I love the early days of the Scoobie Gang when B, W & X were young and unspoiled, and no one/nothing stood between them. Buffy from season 1 is probably my favorite Buffy.

3. Season 4. Oz's departure is quite a good reason to love it IMO (first three eps suck though, and so do Xanya and B & W leaving X behind with the whole college thing) and Season 3 (I love the atmosphere, love the overall plot, love the Fluke. OTOH some of the plot twists are quite disturbing. And I hate Amends to this very day). Still can't decide between the two seasons - hence the same place.

4. Season 5 (some good moments despite the idiotic concept and the worst possible way of introducing Dawn. Also Spike takes more and more screen time, which is rather depressing, and there are few disturbing signs of Buffy's future bitchiness. It took them four years to come from "I don't want to die" to "Death is your gift" after all);

5. Season 7. Quite a promising concept which unfortunately got terribly mishandled. All those attempts to mimic the first two seasons look very pathetic and scream "we've run out of ideas". I can somehow tolerate eps 4, 6, 11, 12, 15, 18 & 19. Other than that? Total disappointment. And the ending, it truly sucked. And I don't hate the Potentials 'cause they were the season's least problem. Also, quoting one of the participants of our forum, by the time Sunnydale collapsed "I loved syphilis more than Buffy Summers".

6. Season 6. Total departure from the show's original concept, i.e. crap. There are few exceptions, of course (ep 1-2, 17, 22), but... Xanya wedding affair, Spuffy, Junkie Willow, The Trio, Giles the Dork, estranged Scoobies (too much shit for one season, you know)... Apparently it was an attempt to kill the remaining good things about Buffy. The writers should have thought about writing good stories, not making Buffy's life suck even more than it already had.

WHY do you hate Amends? Also what could have been a better way to introduce the Dawnster?

On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:10 AM, Halting Hex said:

I believe this is covered in the "Best and Worst of Buffy" thread.  Merge, please?

2

1

(slight gap)

3

4

(large gap)

5

(interstellar, cosmic-sized gap)

(somebody in the other thread had a great joke about what goes here…test patterns, reruns of My Mother the Car, etc.)

7

6

Also, lemberg, you left out S3.  Which given your adoration for some parts of that season, I find ironic.

(Also, what's wrong with Becoming, Part 1, I ask? I disagree with your dislike for Phases and BB&B due to 'ship preferences, but I at least understand that.  But 2.21 doesn't have that issue.)

You put 1 above 3? Really?

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Whoops, missed the joint citation.  (It was the "1" through "6" numbering that did me in; if I had a tie, I would have put "T3-4" or some such, just so the worst of the worst could have its well-"earned" rating of "7".  But that's just me.)

And I don't know…it's true that Xander didn't get the best reception for "Way I see it, you just want to forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you can have your boyfriend back", at the time.  But at the end of the day, I'm so glad he said it, just so that when Little Miss Ego (name also from this ep :) ) tries to pull this crap again in Revelations ("But you have to believe me, if I thought Angel was going to hurt anyone—"), X is already on record as having been on the right side of history, here.

That said, I do understand that you're protective of Xander, just as I am of Willow.  So I get where you're coming from.  I do try to judge the eps in a larger context, though;  IMO, Flooded blows as television, not merely as a "Willow is so CRA-ZEE!  Thank God Buffy has Spike!" pile of vileness and character assassination.  So I still appreciate "It's a big rock.  I can't wait to tell my friends.  They don't have a rock this big." in 2.21…even if it comes from the exact same asshole who will "joke" about "I could probably thin the herd a bit" (and Buffy smiles at the idea of his murdering her friends) 71 episodes later.   One works for me, and one (really, really) doesn't.  "Rank arrogant amateur" slurs aside.

But again, JMO.

Give her a break. Buffy's life means she is undoubtedly affected by gallows humour like any cop or combat veteran, look at her sitting in the victim outline in Crush. The other Scoobs are also occasionally 'callous and strange'. 

[Halting Hex]

54 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You put 1 above 3? Really?

S1 is the foundation for the greatness that is S2; it works hard every episode to convince you that these characters are good people and good friends and you should care about them.  It integrates the gang so thoroughly into the plot that all four of them are involved with the climax of every single episode (sometimes Willow's just watching, but she's there), whereas in S3 characters disappear for half the episode, time after time after time.

The Master is an iconic villain, representing Buffy's fear of death, one of the basic elements that defines her calling.  ("One Slayer dies, the next one's called." "Giles, I'm 16 years old.  I, I don't want to die.")  I've yet to figure out how the Mayor is in any way relevant to Buffy's Journey…when the Big Bad of the season is eclipsed by the subvillain, you know you've screwed up.

The first half of the season is pissed away on relationship plots, with no forward momentum whatsoever, because they were setting up Angel to leave at midseason.  And then he sticks around for the back half, after all. Oy.  Likewise, my precious Cordy has so little to do after Amends that they forcibly undo all her S2 growth, even announcing it ("She certainly has reverted to type"), just so they can do it all over again on the spinoff. And then they reduce her to sniffing after Wesley, and I like Wes (even here), but come on, now…

S3 has nicer sets and higher-quality film stock (although it's arguable that switching from 16mm to 35mm actually hurts the series, takes away the atmospheric "Gersh-light" of the first two seasons) and features an array of exciting new characters, from Anya (who doesn't start sucking until Hush) to Wesley (as I say, I like Brylcreem™!Wes) to Mr. Trick.  And of course, any season that's dedicated to Eliza Dushku's 17/18-year-old ass in tight black leather pants is starting very heavily on the plus side.  (Hey, just because it's not as good as S2/S1 , that doesn't mean I don't like it.)

But the season is hollow at its core, and thus keeps spitting out clunker after clunker after clunker:  Anne, Beauty and the Beasts, Band Candy, Lovers Walk, Helpless, The Zeppo, Enemies…they may all be better than anything DawnVerse (bar Normal Again, obviously), but none of them really rises above "meh" for me, and I don't feel any sadness if I decide to give them a skip.

And let's end by contrasting the two climaxes, both with Buffy-in-peril.  In S1, her Inevitable Prophesied Death is the true test of her heroism, and she only survives because Xander himself is a hero, growing as a character as he shames Angel out of his skulking.  Whereas in S3, Buffy's only in danger to begin with because she fell for Faith's distraction tactics, she compromises her morals by deciding to feed Faith to Angel, she flubs that job by not taking the tranq gun or backup (because Joss needs his "kewl" girl-fight, dontcha know?) and when she decides to offer herself in Faith's place, it turns out not to mean anything because, oops!  Angel didn't need to "drain the blood of a Slayer", after all!  Never mind, just bad hype!

I mean, seriously?  That's your resolution to the Hero's Dilemma?  "Oops, never mind"?  Sheesh.

So yeah, I'll take S1, thanks.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

56 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The other Scoobs are also occasionally 'callous and strange'. 

I must have missed when Willow and Xander thought their girlfriends plotting to kill Buffy would be a big joke.  I mean, Buffy does completely forget about Willow in School Hard and she just lets Spike stroll off in Lovers Walk, so its quite arguable that she's never given a shit about Spike trying to kill Willow and Xander, but I expect and demand better of her.  "Gallows humor" or not.

So no, I will not "give her a break" on this.  Spike is an actual murderer who has actually murdered lots and lots of actual people.  That's not fucking funny.   And if Buffy thinks it is, she can go tower-jumping again and leave the job to a real Slayer.

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I do understand that you're protective of Xander, just as I am of Willow.

I'm not protective of Xander. Well, I am, but someone's gotta do it for him since he's the most unfairly underrated character among the core four. And I totally love Willow. It's just, she oversteps sometimes when it comes to Buffy. Friendship doesn't require the ultimate support for your best friend's every (stupid) action IMO. Also I have a suspicion that Xander's stance on Angel(us) subject displayed openly in Becoming, Part 1 (and then again in Dead Man's Party and Revelations) cost him dearly in the third season, hence the "Three Musketeers" (B, W, X) being reduced to "Two Musketeers" (B & W constant bonding without X in sight). Whenever the three of them interacted, Oz, Cordy, Giles and God knows who else were also present (The Wish , Doppelgangland and Earshot being the few exceptions).

But like I said before: I have issues with penultimate eps in general.
 

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

WHY do you hate Amends? Also what could have been a better way to introduce the Dawnster?

1. Too much Angel whitewashing. Willoz 2.0 (because choosing a cliched "cool", popular type, the guy playing guitar in the band, over "uncool" - hence not so popular - guy is a suuuuch a great achievement, such a huuuuge step ahead, such a clear sign of a character growth... Bah). Xander spending the night abandoned in his sleeping bag while all his friends met the snowfall having some company. 2. Didn't Joyce have two sisters or something? Why couldn't Buffy have a real human cousin Dawn instead of artificially, mystically created sister Dawn? Mindfuck wasn't that necessary IMO.

 

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

 In S1, her Inevitable Prophesied Death is the true test of her heroism, and she only survives because Xander himself is a hero, growing as a character as he shames Angel out of his skulking.

And let us not forget that all of Xander's growth as a character shown clearly in the seasons 1-2, was totally (and deliberately) undone by the middle of the season 3. Whether the writers did it just to please the Bangel sect or purely for the cheap sensation of the "Xander-centric" The Zeppo episode ("Gee, that loser Harris, powerless fool, the useless part of the group, unlike Oz who's veeeeeryyy "useful" all of the time, fit only for bringing doughnuts, he's also capable of some extraordinary things. See what friendship with true heroes like Buffy and Angel or brainiacs like Willow and Giles can do to such a waste of space!") I do not care. Nevertheless, the season 3 is kinda odd in this regard, 'cause neither writers nor the Scoobs themselves gave a fuck about Xander being an ordinary guy pre-Zeppo. Xander's journey from the "useless part of the group" (The Zeppo) to the "Key Guy" (Graduation Day, Part 2) was too fast and thus unrealistic. How could someone sidelined for most of the season suddenly become the "Key Guy" was never explained. And that's only one of the third season's many issues.

Edited October 29, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

I like season 1 more than season 3. Season 1 has no annoying main characters (hi there, Faith!). The Mayor is such an overrated villain - him being, well, a mayor, never really plays any important role in the narrative, the Watcher's Council is an annoying plot device, Angel's inexplicable return is a bad sign of things to come.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:21 AM, Halting Hex said:

S1 is the foundation for the greatness that is S2; it works hard every episode to convince you that these characters are good people and good friends and you should care about them.  It integrates the gang so thoroughly into the plot that all four of them are involved with the climax of every single episode (sometimes Willow's just watching, but she's there), whereas in S3 characters disappear for half the episode, time after time after time.

The Master is an iconic villain, representing Buffy's fear of death, one of the basic elements that defines her calling.  ("One Slayer dies, the next one's called." "Giles, I'm 16 years old.  I, I don't want to die.")  I've yet to figure out how the Mayor is in any way relevant to Buffy's Journey…when the Big Bad of the season is eclipsed by the subvillain, you know you've screwed up.

The first half of the season is pissed away on relationship plots, with no forward momentum whatsoever, because they were setting up Angel to leave at midseason.  And then he sticks around for the back half, after all. Oy.  Likewise, my precious Cordy has so little to do after Amends that they forcibly undo all her S2 growth, even announcing it ("She certainly has reverted to type"), just so they can do it all over again on the spinoff. And then they reduce her to sniffing after Wesley, and I like Wes (even here), but come on, now…

S3 has nicer sets and higher-quality film stock (although it's arguable that switching from 16mm to 35mm actually hurts the series, takes away the atmospheric "Gersh-light" of the first two seasons) and features an array of exciting new characters, from Anya (who doesn't start sucking until Hush) to Wesley (as I say, I like Brylcreem™!Wes) to Mr. Trick.  And of course, any season that's dedicated to Eliza Dushku's 17/18-year-old ass in tight black leather pants is starting very heavily on the plus side.  (Hey, just because it's not as good as S2/S1 , that doesn't mean I don't like it.)

But the season is hollow at its core, and thus keeps spitting out clunker after clunker after clunker:  Anne, Beauty and the Beasts, Band Candy, Lovers Walk, Helpless, The Zeppo, Enemies…they may all be better than anything DawnVerse (bar Normal Again, obviously), but none of them really rises above "meh" for me, and I don't feel any sadness if I decide to give them a skip.

And let's end by contrasting the two climaxes, both with Buffy-in-peril.  In S1, her Inevitable Prophesied Death is the true test of her heroism, and she only survives because Xander himself is a hero, growing as a character as he shames Angel out of his skulking.  Whereas in S3, Buffy's only in danger to begin with because she fell for Faith's distraction tactics, she compromises her morals by deciding to feed Faith to Angel, she flubs that job by not taking the tranq gun or backup (because Joss needs his "kewl" girl-fight, dontcha know?) and when she decides to offer herself in Faith's place, it turns out not to mean anything because, oops!  Angel didn't need to "drain the blood of a Slayer", after all!  Never mind, just bad hype!

I mean, seriously?  That's your resolution to the Hero's Dilemma?  "Oops, never mind"?  Sheesh.

So yeah, I'll take S1, thanks.

Band Candy, The Zeppo, Earshot 'clunkers'? Are we watching the same show? I actually like the look of season 3 much better, 1 does look cheap because it is. 

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, Halting Hex said:

I must have missed when Willow and Xander thought their girlfriends plotting to kill Buffy would be a big joke.  I mean, Buffy does completely forget about Willow in School Hard and she just lets Spike stroll off in Lovers Walk, so its quite arguable that she's never given a shit about Spike trying to kill Willow and Xander, but I expect and demand better of her.  "Gallows humor" or not.

So no, I will not "give her a break" on this.  Spike is an actual murderer who has actually murdered lots and lots of actual people.  That's not fucking funny.   And if Buffy thinks it is, she can go tower-jumping again and leave the job to a real Slayer.

All the Scoobs do that to a greater or lesser degree, from Xander playing pool with Spike to Willow worrying about hurting his feelings to Giles watching Passions with him. Buffy loves all her friends and nightly risks her life for perfect strangers but allow her a bit of macabre levity.  

[Halting Hex]

I said Enemies (annoying "trick-the-audience" episode that falls apart on a rewatch), not its successor, Earshot.  Earshot may be a case of Jane Espenson Jane Espenson-ing all over the place (pointless over-extended Act 1, blatant steal of the Willow/Jonathan scene from Go Fish, Willow being too swept up in Percy and school life to be a real friend to Buffy) and it was wayyyy over-hyped because of the Columbine-induced delay ("a special, never-before-seen episode of Buffy"), but it's still okay, IMO.

And yeah, if you read my responses on Band Candy and The Zeppo, you'll know I'm not fond of either of them.  They both take one joke and beat it into the ground, largely writing the Scoobs out of the episode (Willow's barely past a walk-on, either time) and mistreating the one character who does get spotlighted, whether it's a "Giles at 16" that violates previous continuity on him (and "Joyce") or a "fray-adjacent" Xander, who's suddenly "the useless part of the group" and good for nothing more than fetching doughnuts…but don't worry, he's "secretly cool", so it's fine if we abuse him the rest of the time! (No, it isn't.)  Neither's a real winner in my books,, "Tales of Bold Ulysses" and Faith-steerage aside.  But JMO.

On 10/30/2018 at 5:45 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

All the Scoobs do that to a greater or lesser degree, from Xander playing pool with Spike to Willow worrying about hurting his feelings to Giles watching Passions with him.

Again, in none of those situations is Spike plotting Buffy's (or anyone's) death.  So still rather different from smiling at "thin the herd", IMO.

On 10/30/2018 at 5:45 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy loves all her friends

Can't prove it by Flooded (whose whole purpose is to tell us that Buffy can't stand to be in the same room with them) or really Season Sux as a whole, for that matter. Spontaneous displays of joy in their presence were pretty much nonexistent, AFAICT.

And again, we're back to the difference between 16mm glory and the later years; the first two dozen "happy eps" (pre-Surprise) work to sell you on the Scoobs' heroic character and bonds of true friendship, In contrast, the later seasons expect you to take that as written and hope to cruise by on the benefit of accrued credit in those departments.  Doesn't work so well for me.

Really, it's the Stan Lee theory.  Lee operated on the principle that any Marvel comic might be a reader's first and demanded that they be accessible in that way.  And while people did become fans in later years (I know one prominent TWoPPer whose first episode was Doublemeat Palace and I myself wasn't truly hooked until around Revelations), overall IMO the principle still applies.  Flooded doesn't give me shit to care about Crazy!Willow, Enabler!Tara, Useless!Xander, One-Joke!Anya, Screechy!Dawn, or even OftenAbsentSnippy!Giles.

No wonder Buffy doesn't mind St. Sunkencheeks suggesting he kill them all…what have they done in the episode to deserve our sympathies, exactly? Feh.

ETA: Is Tara even in Flooded?  I honestly can't recall.  I think she doesn't miss an episode this year until Gone, but she must be wallpaper in this one…

Edited November 5, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Is Tara even in Flooded?  I honestly can't recall.

According to imdb, she is.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, Halting Hex said:

I said Enemies (annoying "trick-the-audience" episode that falls apart on a rewatch), not its successor, Earshot.  Earshot may be a case of Jane Espenson Jane Espenson-ing all over the place (pointless over-extended Act 1, blatant steal of the Willow/Jonathan scene from Go Fish, Willow being too swept up in Percy and school life to be a real friend to Buffy) and it was wayyyy over-hyped because of the Columbine-induced delay ("a special, never-before-seen episode of Buffy"), but it's still okay, IMO.

And yeah, if you read my responses on Band Candy and The Zeppo, you'll know I'm not fond of either of them.  They both take one joke and beat it into the ground, largely writing the Scoobs out of the episode (Willow's barely past a walk-on, either time) and mistreating the one character who does get spotlighted, whether it's a "Giles at 16" that violates previous continuity on him (and "Joyce") or a "fray-adjacent" Xander, who's suddenly "the useless part of the group" and good for nothing more than fetching doughnuts…but don't worry, he's "secretly cool", so it's fine if we abuse him the rest of the time! (No, it isn't.)  Neither's a real winner in my books,, "Tales of Bold Ulysses" and Faith-steerage aside.  But JMO.

Again, in none of those situations is Spike plotting Buffy's (or anyone's) death.  So still rather different from smiling at "thin the herd", IMO.

Can't prove it by Flooded (whose whole purpose is to tell us that Buffy can't stand to be in the same room with them) or really Season Sux as a whole, for that matter. Spontaneous displays of joy in their presence were pretty much nonexistent, AFAICT.

And again, we're back to the difference between 16mm glory and the later years; the first two dozen "happy eps" (pre-Surprise) work to sell you on the Scoobs' heroic character and bonds of true friendship, In contrast, the later seasons expect you to take that as written and hope to cruise by on the benefit of accrued credit in those departments.  Doesn't work so well for me.

Really, it's the Stan Lee theory.  Lee operated on the principle that any Marvel comic might be a reader's first and demanded that they be accessible in that way.  And while people did become fans in later years (I know one prominent TWoPPer whose first episode was Doublemeat Palace and I myself wasn't truly hooked until around Revelations), overall IMO the principle still applies.  Flooded doesn't give me shit to care about Crazy!Willow, Enabler!Tara, Useless!Xander, One-Joke!Anya, Screechy!Dawn, or even OftenAbsentSnippy!Giles.

No wonder Buffy doesn't mind St. Sunkencheeks suggesting he kill them all…what have they done in the episode to deserve our sympathies, exactly? Feh.

ETA: Is Tara even in Flooded?  I honestly can't recall.  I think she doesn't miss an episode this year until Gone, but she must be wallpaper in this one…

Because she doesn't take him seriously?

[Halting Hex]

41 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because she doesn't take him seriously?

Why not? It's not even eight months since he was feeding on the blood of the couple Drusilla murdered for him at the Bronze, since he had Buffy imprisoned and threatened to feed her to Dru if she wouldn't admit her "feelings" for him.  (He doesn't get as far as demanding sex, but it doesn't seem unlikely.  Sex obtained through threat of physical force is Rape-One, for those keeping score.)

If Spike had used his advantage in Crush to get some, and he was capable of getting Buffy pregnant and she hadn't died and all, she wouldn't have even have had the kid yet.  So I think it's a little soon for her to stop taking his murderous nature "seriously".  At least let him go a whole year without being an accessory to multiple murders before he gets the free pass, I'd say.

Seriously.