The Americans - General Discussion

[Andy73]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I hope you're feeling better!

Thank you. Yes, I’m! Not like I would, but it’s better.

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I never made that connection

It’s sounds so strange: I think it’s first time I get something you didn’t… 😂

[Andy73]

This is my play list:
- Harden my heart
- Tusk
- In the air tonight
- Roller
- Siamese twins 
- Rough Boys
- Games without frontiers
- Here come the flood
- Only you
- It must be done
- The chain
- Tainted love
- Lucky number
- Under pressure
- Major Tom
- Who by fire
- More than this
- Old flame
- Slave
- Lay your hands on me
- Slice of life
- Goodbye yellow brick road
- Don’t dream It’s over
- Louisiana Saturday night
- We do what we’re told
- Listening wing
- Gold dust woman
- Drivin’ my life away
- Ideas as opiates
- Broken flag
- Brother in arms
- With or without you.

[Kel Varnsen]

I just finished watching the series last night after watching it for the last few months on Disney plus. I enjoyed it alot although the whole thing where they couldn't pay for Henry's boarding school but could pay for Paige's college made no sense. Also the whole thing with the bug resistant grain was dumb and super obvious. I also wish the time jump hadn't skipped over Chernobyl.

I mostly liked the ending, although I could have used a tiny bit more explanation as to what happened. Not like text on screen or anything but was Philip and Elizabeth's report enough to stop the coup and keep them safe. Although I guess since Gorbachev wasn't over thrown in 1987 kind of answers that.

As for Paige's ending, my in brain story is that she got back to DC and called Stan and completely flipped on the whole organization in exchange for immunity. With how low level she was, and everything she knew about Claudia, Gabriel, the safe houses, Marilyn, Norm and the second generation program (and maybe her parents and all the stories about surprise vacations) she could probably get a good deal, especially if Stan was on her side spinning it about how her parents influenced her. Especially since there was all that talk about the information they got from Harvest and how they used it to track other illegals.

[Zella]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:30 AM, Andy73 said:

This is my play list:
- Harden my heart
- Tusk
- In the air tonight
- Roller
- Siamese twins 
- Rough Boys
- Games without frontiers
- Here come the flood
- Only you
- It must be done
- The chain
- Tainted love
- Lucky number
- Under pressure
- Major Tom
- Who by fire
- More than this
- Old flame
- Slave
- Lay your hands on me
- Slice of life
- Goodbye yellow brick road
- Don’t dream It’s over
- Louisiana Saturday night
- We do what we’re told
- Listening wing
- Gold dust woman
- Drivin’ my life away
- Ideas as opiates
- Broken flag
- Brother in arms
- With or without you.

I also have a playlist for the show. :) I hope you're feeling better!

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I also wish the time jump hadn't skipped over Chernobyl.

I was also disappointed the show didn't cover this. I understand why they did time jump and I really have no complaints about season 6, but during season 5, I was really looking forward to Philip and Elizabeth's reaction to Chernobyl. 

[Andy73]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I just finished watching the series last night after watching it for the last few months on Disney plus

You are welcome!!

I watched the show at first time in April-May 2022 on Disney+ too.

Just finished the S1 rewatch.

if you want share your feelings or your thoughts or questions we are here and you are welcome.

And you are right,  Chernobyl could be a good point for the show…

Page…. I think her only chance is go to Stan… he can’t talk about her because FBI would find out he let them run away.

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I also have a playlist for the show

I always hear it when I go on the highway for work or on Saturdays while I do housecleaning.

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I hope you're feeling better!

Thank you. I feel good. Still positive, but good, so tomorrow  I’m going to watch S2x01!

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Andy73 said:

Page…. I think her only chance is go to Stan… he can’t talk about her because FBI would find out he let them run away.

I think Stan would help her, both because he cares for her and for some possibly unspoken agreement where neither of them mention that he let them go. And I also think she would be a good candidate for some kind of deal if she gave up info. Especially since she (and Stan) could tell a good story about how she was influenced to do this work for her entire life. Plus I can see some prosecutor not wanting to put a super young looking pretty white girl (who is a US Citizen) on trial as a big bad Russian spy, especially if she cooperated. Especially considering she chose not to run away when she had the chance.

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think Stan would help her, both because he cares for her and for some possibly unspoken agreement where neither of them mention that he let them go. And I also think she would be a good candidate for some kind of deal if she gave up info. Especially since she (and Stan) could tell a good story about how she was influenced to do this work for her entire life. Plus I can see some prosecutor not wanting to put a super young looking pretty white girl (who is a US Citizen) on trial as a big bad Russian spy, especially if she cooperated. Especially considering she chose not to run away when she had the chance.

I don't think she'd have any clear strategy mapped out besides telling the truth if forced. If she's there, she starts off in the same place as Henry. She'd probably have to say that she knew the truth, and it seems like even a cursory glance at her life would make the FBI suspicious about her working with her mother. She's kept herself ignorant about what she was actually doing, so could easily accidentally be admitting to far more than she imagines--for instance, the murders in the warehouse.

She doesn't know much helpful at this point--Lionel's the only person she could really give up (poor Lionel!). Claudia's gone, they'd have stopped using any safe house Paige was in once she got off the train. She would mostly be ratting out what she knew about Elizabeth's doings--I wonder if Jackson would get in trouble too. Or if she'd wind up giving up Pastor Tim.

It's just hard to know. She certainly has committed crimes that should put her in jail, but I get the sense the writers didn't intend for her to go there. Maybe she'd just tell all she knew and get one of those sentences where she wears an ankle bracelet but isn't in jail. That seems like it would be fitting for Elizabeth as well, just in terms of it being another personal betrayal of her more than anyone else, since most of her details would be about snitching on stuff she specifically did with Elizabeth where Elizabeth was fooling herself she could count on her. Philip would probably be more prepared for anything Paige said about him than Elizabeth would be, if they find out about it.

Re: the coup, I think they did enough in the dialogue between Claudia, Igor and Arkady to make it clear than Philip and Elizabeth's information really did stop that attempt at a coup. I know some think they would be in danger now from the people involved, including Claudia, but I don't think they would be the target of revenge over it since they were never part of the coup to begin with.

It is interesting to think about how they would have reacted to Chernobyl. Philip was already openly talking with William about the dangers of technology in the USSR, and Elizabeth would certainly have defended them. Maybe Paige just wouldn't have been that interested, since that seems to be her feelings about most things that happened in the USSR?

The wheat thing was pretty silly--I think it might have worked better if they were able to really drive home how Philip, in particular, just wasn't as rational on that subject because of the history with hunger and desire to do something that was actually good. (Philip being the one that thought through what they were doing.) The flashbacks to his childhood were pretty grim, but Elizabeth was always louder about her own deprivation.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

She doesn't know much helpful at this point--Lionel's the only person she could really give up (poor Lionel!). Claudia's gone, they'd have stopped using any safe house Paige was in once she got off the train. She would mostly be ratting out what she knew about Elizabeth's doings--I wonder if Jackson would get in trouble too. Or if she'd wind up giving up Pastor Tim.

I think she would know some valuable stuff. It's 99% likely that Claudia is gone. But even if her description is useless, Paige can describe how handlers like her operate. The location of the safehouse would give them a fake name that would be some intelligence. The FBI also seems to have no idea about the next generation program and how they trained her. And as for Pastor Tim she could let them know how Soviet agents got him his job on the church council. She also might know some details about how Elizabeth and Marilyn got jobs as home care nurses with no qualifications or weaknesses in the security protocols for interns working in the senate. It's all bits of things but that is kind of how intelligence gathering works I think.

Of course if Paige didn't go to prison she could probably get an awesome book deal.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think she would know some valuable stuff. It's 99% likely that Claudia is gone. But even if her description is useless, Paige can describe how handlers like her operate. The location of the safehouse would give them a fake name that would be some intelligence. The FBI also seems to have no idea about the next generation program and how they trained her. And as for Pastor Tim she could let them know how Soviet agents got him his job on the church council. She also might know some details about how Elizabeth and Marilyn got jobs as home care nurses with no qualifications or weaknesses in the security protocols for interns working in the senate. It's all bits of things but that is kind of how intelligence gathering works I think.

Of course if Paige didn't go to prison she could probably get an awesome book deal.

Honestly, I don't think there is a second gen program. On my rewatch I saw clues that it basically only really happened with Jared, and Paige was the "let it fall apart slowly" part. Note that Elizabeth never gets any directions about what to do with Paige ever in the last season compared to all the pressure in S3. And Paige herself doesn't know that program exists as far as we know. She just volunteered for her own reasons. Obviously Henry is completely ignored, the best evidence for the program no longer existing.

But still, sure, she could say some things and I don't think she'd need to prove herself a goldmine of info to get a good deal--the fact that she knows very little might work more in her favor. She could very believably come across as a dupe (though if she got materials to apply to the State Department she'd be in trouble). She could tell them about getting Pastor Tim his job (though that would probably just betray him and I think it's already known that the WCC has a lot of KGB.) I don't think she knows a single thing about how Elizabeth or Marilyn got jobs as home care nurses or even that they had those jobs. She went through training with Elizabeth, though it was probably the same kind of training any spy would have. I don't know how much she'd know about Claudia, since she seemed to just work with Elizabeth and Marilyn, and Elizabeth didn't entrust her with much information.

She would know about the jobs she went on, of course. That Elizabeth was meeting with the guy who "shot himself" in the park. That Elizabeth was the one who murdered the security guards (not that she knew that at the time, but she was at the break in). She could lead them to Sam Nunn's intern who Elizabeth tricked. Oh, and if she happens to mention having her ID stolen by a guy whose name she got wrong despite reading his name tag, she'd find out he met a mysterious, bloody end that same night... The most valuable piece of info she had was the identities of 2 Directorate S agents, and the real face of two others, but they're all already gone. 

I imagine she'd approach the whole thing expecting to be protected and listened to, since that's what happened to her in the past. 

ETA: Oh, I wonder if she might mention something about how her parents said they'd uncovered a plot against Gorbachev that would help Oleg.

Edited August 9, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Andy73]

On 8/9/2022 at 5:49 AM, sistermagpie said:

Honestly, I don't think there is a second gen program

I  think the next-gen program is dead, too.

The Jared case created a scandal at the center and, as you say, they never tried to recruit Henry… I don't think ‘couse P&E.

Other thing: 

Have you noticed the training difference between Hans and Paige? With Hans Elizabeth was very professional. She was teaching him many things, but at the first mistake she takes him away. 
With Paige she behaves differently. We see her teaching her only self-defense and never the spy stuff.

I think Elizabeth never saw Paige as a little mini-me and she didn’t want she does the same thing. Elizabeth really wanted for Paige a spy-job like Martha's.

Coming back to Page as FBI informer: I think she can give them very little… when the thing become serious, Claudia ed Elizabeth always ask her to leave their alone… they never told her something about a mission on a strategic layer.

On 8/9/2022 at 5:49 AM, sistermagpie said:

The most valuable piece of info she had was the identities of 2 Directorate S agents, and the real face of two others, but they're all already gone. 

Oh yes. This is really damm true!!!

On 8/9/2022 at 5:49 AM, sistermagpie said:

ETA: Oh, I wonder if she might mention something about how her parents said they'd uncovered a plot against Gorbachev that would help Oleg.

Good question. May be. But he has to agree with Stan so as not to burn themself.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Andy73
Missing words

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I  think the next-gen program is dead, too.

The Jared case created a scandal at the center and, as you say, they never tried to recruit Henry… I don't think ‘couse P&E.

I was so excited when I thought I found "clues" of this. It's I think in the episode "I Am Abassin Zadran." That's the ep where Gabriel and Claudia have one scene in a diner (I think it might be the only time we see Claudia that season). Gabriel asks how the Centre reacted when Jared killed his parents. She talks about how it was so terrible, the worst thing ever, and then Gabriel says, "And after all that they decided to do it again?" And Claudia just pats his hand and says they think he can handle it--which of course explains nothing.

But in that same ep at the Rezidentura Arkady tries to make a good decision as a boss to shut down the mail robot bug. It costs too much time and money and there's little hope it will produce anything worth it. But Tatiana and Oleg convince him that it's better for him to keep it going, not because they believe the bug has value, but because of how Soviet beaurocracy works. If you're the person who announces a program with a lot of potential on paper is a failure, you'll never get another big job. So what you want to do is fake it, pretend you're behind it, when you're really just backing away from it to let it fail slowly without you getting blamed for it.

I really think maybe we're supposed to read those things together. Nobody wants to be the one to declare the 2nd Gen program a failure even after Jared, so that's why there's this big push on the Jennings for Paige that mysteriously goes away by the time she's working. (And after she tells Pastor Tim, another giant failure that probably made people back off even more--two disasters in two tries!)

12 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Other thing: 

Have you noticed the training difference between Hans and Paige? With Hans Elizabeth was very professional. She was teaching him many things, but at the first mistake she takes him away. 
With Paige she behaves differently. We see her teaching her only self-defense and never the spy stuff.

Another thing I got excited about noticing on rewatch. 😁

You're right, we do see Elizabeth treating Paige very differently. While we don't see her teaching Paige the spy stuff because it happens during the time jump (Paige is already working when we meet them again), but we do see that Paige has absolutely failed learn the skills she and Hans were taught. We see Hans being tested on describing many people and license plates he saw quickly. Paige totally botches a single name she got a good, long look at. The fact that Elizabeth has her working when her skills are so bad suggests to me that she'd trained her so long she had to either flunk her or convince herself she was doing okay. She did the second one. She's treating her *very* differently in every way.

But I also realized there's *a lot* of stuff with Hans that has a parallel scene with Paige--not exactly the same, but too similar to be a coincidence. And there's always a big contrast in how Hans is being shown as a basically competent newbie while Paige isn't really doing the job at all.

Like I remember:

Hans and Philip have a professional debriefing in a car where Hans is able to give information and understands what Philip is asking--the one time he goes a little off-track Philip just stops him easily. / Elizabeth calms a freaked-out Paige down in a car before the job's even started, reassuring her that everything's fine while Paige while spits out info as it comes to her. Both scenes are in a car at night and Hans and Paige are dressed identically and behind the wheel. But one's obviously veteran spy/newbie spy and the other is spy mom / civilian daughter.

Hans is seen by enemy agent Kurt for a second and Elizabeth fires him until Hans murders Kurt to remove the threat. / Navy man takes Paige's fake picture ID, Paige does nothing to get it back and Elizabeth murders the sailor to get it back in secret. She also doesn't tell Paige she got the guy's name wrong.

On his first job, Hans keeps his head as lookout when something seems to go wrong, gives Elizabeth a signal that she's needed without leaving his position. / Paige loses her head as lookout in the park, bolts from her position (leaving them with no lookout) and blunders into a potentially dangerous scene, calling Elizabeth "Mom."

On first watch, of course, you just see Hans being a newbie--one that often got judged pretty negatively by viewers, even when he saves Philip twice. But when I rewatched it I realized they were maybe laying groundwork  they then subtly used to show just how much Elizabeth and Paige were in denial about all this.

12 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I think Elizabeth never saw Paige as a little mini-me and she didn’t want she does the same thing. Elizabeth really wanted for Paige a spy-job like Martha's.

Definitely. She was really trying to have it both ways, just telling herself everything would be fine.

12 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Coming back to Page as FBI informer: I think she can give them very little… when the thing become serious, Claudia ed Elizabeth always ask her to leave their alone… they never told her something about a mission on a strategic layer.

Yes--it occurred to me she could also tell about the one job she did where she walked down the hall taking photographs. That would also line up with Oleg and Philip's story, even if Paige herself didn't know it.

In general, it seems like the policy is to always keep people in the dark as much as possible because if they don't have information, they can't give it up. As a daughter Paige got access to top secret stuff--the real faces of 4 Illegals. As a worker she was a low-level recruit who wasn't given details and even other lower-level agents didn't want to rely on. They treated her differently from any other agent too. She could report on stuff she did and saw, but little else.

Edited August 10, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Zella]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I was so excited when I thought I found "clues" of this. It's I think in the episode "I Am Abassin Zadran." That's the ep where Gabriel and Claudia have one scene in a diner (I think it might be the only time we see Claudia that season). Gabriel asks how the Centre reacted when Jared killed his parents. She talks about how it was so terrible, the worst thing ever, and then Gabriel says, "And after all that they decided to do it again?" And Claudia just pats his hand and says they think he can handle it--which of course explains nothing.

But in that same ep at the Rezidentura Arkady tries to make a good decision as a boss to shut down the mail robot bug. It costs too much time and money and there's little hope it will produce anything worth it. But Tatiana and Oleg convince him that it's better for him to keep it going, not because they believe the bug has value, but because of how Soviet beaurocracy works. If you're the person who announces a program with a lot of potential on paper is a failure, you'll never get another big job. So what you want to do is fake it, pretend you're behind it, when you're really just backing away from it to let it fail slowly without you getting blamed for it.

Ooooh that's a really good catch that I never put together! I think in general yes they really are very careful about choosing scenes that align with each other in some way in the same episode, so I agree that's not unintentional. 

On a side note, I laugh so hard every time at that scene where they try to convince Arkady of the mail robot bug's value by reading aloud that tedious transcript and the incredulous look on his face. "Are you joking?" 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

In general, it seems like the policy is to always keep people in the dark as much as possible because if they don't have information, they can't give it up. As a daughter Paige got access to top secret stuff--the real faces of 4 Illegals. As a worker she was a low-level recruit who wasn't given details and even other lower-level agents didn't want to rely on. They treated her differently from any other agent too. She could report on stuff she did and saw, but little else.

Yes they call it compartmentalization. From a strictly realistic basis, the show's characters don't use it enough--I get why for dramatic purposes--but I do think that it would be quite believable that they'd be extra careful in that regard with Paige. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

Ooooh that's a really good catch that I never put together! I think in general yes they really are very careful about choosing scenes that align with each other in some way in the same episode, so I agree that's not unintentional. 

It blew my mind because it was always an open question as the show was going on: why didn't they recruit Henry? And none of the viewer suggestions made sense. I used to imagine some guy at the end of the show noticing they'd accidentally mis-filed Henry's info or something: Hold on, they have TWO kids?

But this actually made a stunning amount of sense. And thematically it works even better to think it's all Elizabeth keeping it alive, and Claudia using it to manipulate Elizabeth.

3 hours ago, Zella said:

On a side note, I laugh so hard every time at that scene where they try to convince Arkady of the mail robot bug's value by reading aloud that tedious transcript and the incredulous look on his face. "Are you joking?" 

LOL - yes! So now when I watch that dramatic reading ('Oh man. Jerry Lewis?") I imagine a bunch of people in Moscow all offering their own suggestions for Paige: We should send Gabriel! Make the parents tell her themselves! Reports once a week! That'll fix it!

And of course, the Mail Robot bug gets them totally screwed. Arkady was right. As usual. 

3 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes they call it compartmentalization. From a strictly realistic basis, the show's characters don't use it enough--I get why for dramatic purposes--but I do think that it would be quite believable that they'd be extra careful in that regard with Paige. 

See Stan basically greeting everyone he meets by telling them he's an FBI agent. LOL. 

With Paige it's even more complicated because Elizabeth's even compartmentalizing stuff she wouldn't be with anyone else. Like when she tells Marilyn not to use "Julie" to follow Stan, she's avoiding the extra risk of Stan being more able to recognize Paige AND probably doesn't trust Paige to be able to tail anyone, much less an FBI agent AND doesn't want Paige to know that they're following Stan. 

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

doesn't want Paige to know that they're following Stan. 

Can you imagine Paige's flipout if she'd been told to tail Stan?!

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, Zella said:

Can you imagine Paige's flipout if she'd been told to tail Stan?!

Exactly! And if Elizabeth was thinking clearly she'd probably ask herself if someone who'd be at all surprised about that could really be said to be working for the KGB. Martha was more committed to reality in S1.

[Zella]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Exactly! And if Elizabeth was thinking clearly she'd probably ask herself if someone who'd be at all surprised about that could really be said to be working for the KGB. Martha was more committed to reality in S1.

This time around, I noticed in season 6 when Elizabeth asks Paige if she wants to continue with this after Marilyn is killed, she almost seems to be hoping that Paige will drop out. I think deep down Elizabeth knows that Paige is really not suited for this work at all, but it's also the best way she connects with her and it is so in line with her ideology for her kid to be committed to the cause that she can't bring herself to admit it to Paige. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

This time around, I noticed in season 6 when Elizabeth asks Paige if she wants to continue with this after Marilyn is killed, she almost seems to be hoping that Paige will drop out. I think deep down Elizabeth knows that Paige is really not suited for this work at all, but it's also the best way she connects with her and it is so in line with her ideology for her kid to be committed to the cause that she can't bring herself to admit it to Paige. 

That's definitely how I saw that scene too. It's almost like both of them are hoping the other one will make the hard choice for them. It seems like Elizabeth isn't completely dealing with all the fears Marilyn's death brings up, so settles on asking for reassurance that Paige is really enthusiastic about this, but I do think underneath she's got to be hoping she'll drop out for all their sakes. (When she doesn't I think the state department direction is Elizabeth deciding to at least get her off the street.) Events in Chicago with Philip have started to crack her open. but she's still not ready to really face the full state everyone is in and hopes to fix it with little gestures that aren't enough.

Meanwhile, Paige says this is all she's ever wanted, that nobody else "gets it"...but is barely able to describe how those other kids are wrong and then explains about how she's really just afraid of being alone and is telling herself that if she's a spy she's bound to meet her Philip one day...maybe hoping for her own reassurance that this is how that works.

It's almost like their last chance to turn back before it ends ugly.

[Zella]

It really is like they're both waiting for the other to blink!

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

if she's a spy she's bound to meet her Philip one day...maybe hoping for her own reassurance that this is how that works.

Yes I can only imagine how horrified she'd be if her parents disabused her of that notion by explaining they were actually in an arranged marriage. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Zella said:

It really is like they're both waiting for the other to blink!

Yes I can only imagine how horrified she'd be if her parents disabused her of that notion by explaining they were actually in an arranged marriage. 

I wonder what she even imagines their marriage is by the end!

Edited August 11, 2022 by sistermagpie
Seem to have typed 3 versions of the same sentence at once.

[Andy73]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:56 PM, sistermagpie said:

I was so excited when I thought I found "clues" of this

On 8/10/2022 at 9:56 PM, sistermagpie said:

Another thing I got excited about noticing on rewatch

Sorry for delay. I'm glad I inspired you.

. 

On 8/10/2022 at 9:56 PM, sistermagpie said:

But I also realized there's *a lot* of stuff with Hans that has a parallel scene with Paige--not exactly the same, but too similar to be a coincidence

You have done a good catch with Hans-Paige stuff. I don’t know if JJ have planned it, but I like think it. You are right:  too similar to be a coincidence.

Anyway there are miles away between Hans’ professionalism and Page’s.

I don’t know way people don’t like Hans. I find him interesting and I wasn’t ready for his sudden death. It really surprised me.

Coming back on nextgen plan death:

In addition to the scene you mentioned before, there is another one with Gabriel and Philip I thin in S5: before saying goodbye, Gabriel tells Philip that the Center was wrong to recruit Page. If I remember correctly, he tells him “you were right on Page”

On 8/11/2022 at 3:29 AM, sistermagpie said:

It blew my mind because it was always an open question as the show was going on: why didn't they recruit Henry? And none of the viewer suggestions made sense. I used to imagine some guy at the end of the show noticing they'd accidentally mis-filed Henry's info or something: Hold on, they have TWO kids?

But this actually made a stunning amount of sense. And thematically it works even better to think it's all Elizabeth keeping it alive, and Claudia using it to manipulate Elizabeth

I felt the same feeling. Now I’m better with this stuff: as told before: nextgen plan was dead!

On 8/10/2022 at 11:46 PM, Zella said:

Yes they call it compartmentalization. From a strictly realistic basis, the show's characters don't use it enough--I get why for dramatic purposes--but I do think that it would be quite believable that they'd be extra careful in that regard with Paige. 

I agree! I think Elizabeth doesn’t really trust in Page. May be ‘cause Page’s spy-skill, may be ‘cause Page didn't keep the secret telling Pastor Tim everything.

On 8/11/2022 at 4:30 AM, sistermagpie said:

On 8/11/2022 at 3:40 AM, Zella said:

Can you imagine Paige's flipout if she'd been told to tail Stan?!

Exactly! And if Elizabeth was thinking clearly she'd probably ask herself if someone who'd be at all surprised about that could really be said to be working for the KGB. Martha was more committed to reality in S1.

And plus Elizabeth Elizabeth fears Page may be see by Stan. They would all be in big trouble. Today there are no evidence of Elizabeth’s involvement in the Mr. and Miss Teacup murder but if Stan had seen Page follow him.... Yes, Elizabeth was smart here.

On 8/11/2022 at 4:47 AM, Zella said:

This time around, I noticed in season 6 when Elizabeth asks Paige if she wants to continue with this after Marilyn is killed, she almost seems to be hoping that Paige will drop out. I think deep down Elizabeth knows that Paige is really not suited for this work at all, but it's also the best way she connects with her and it is so in line with her ideology for her kid to be committed to the cause that she can't bring herself to admit it to Paige.

Oh, i read it in the same way. She gave her the push to call herself out. I think Elizabeth was really wary for her and also she was upset because Marilyn's death.

On 8/11/2022 at 5:54 AM, Zella said:

Yes I can only imagine how horrified she'd be if her parents disabused her of that notion by explaining they were actually in an arranged marriage

In fact they never told that. They told her they loved them so much and they had always wanted them.

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I wonder what she even imagines their marriage is by the end!

I think she never thought it was fake.

Consider that she, like us, has always seen that for their parents their relationship came first. After the Bible fought  Philip and Page were shocked: Elizabeth went to console Philip... and on another occasion the opposite happened: Philip prioritized Elizabeth.

In START in the wood when they throw  the wedding ring and put on the real wedding ring (I really loved that scene…it broke my heart) there was a moment I felt there were only them: Page was completely out of the scene. And I feel she was feeling the same!

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

You have done a good catch with Hans-Paige stuff. I don’t know if JJ have planned it, but I like think it. You are right:  too similar to be a coincidence.

At the very least they must have known that it was good to show what a newbie would be expected to do, and some early challenges they could face on those jobs. Hans knew what he was doing there and had a goal in mind, obviously worked on his skills. 

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I don’t know way people don’t like Hans. I find him interesting and I wasn’t ready for his sudden death. It really surprised me.

It was always funny to me how people tended to assume he was bad at the job or not doing anything important when we're explicitly told how much they rely on him and shown him making good decisions, even if he sometimes makes mistakes. I think it was more just what people expected since he was young and just learning or something. But then, sometimes people assumed Paige was supposed to be doing well when she wasn't, maybe because of who her parents were.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I agree! I think Elizabeth doesn’t really trust in Page. May be ‘cause Page’s spy-skill, may be ‘cause Page didn't keep the secret telling Pastor Tim everything.

Also, she obviously knows underneath that Paige won't approve of what they're doing. Sometimes people would say that however bad the audience thought it was for Elizabeth to recruit Paige, she thought it was 100% good. But clearly she wasn't really so sure, because she hid so much about what she was doing. She wasn't always proud of it.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

And plus Elizabeth Elizabeth fears Page may be see by Stan. They would all be in big trouble. Today there are no evidence of Elizabeth’s involvement in the Mr. and Miss Teacup murder but if Stan had seen Page follow him.... Yes, Elizabeth was smart here.

Yeah, when I watch some scenes with Hans, for instance, I can't imagine anyone really trusting Paige the way they do him, especially since we never see her make a good decision on her own about the work. 

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Oh, i read it in the same way. She gave her the push to call herself out. I think Elizabeth was really wary for her and also she was upset because Marilyn's death.

I feel like she did on some level want her to quit, but also wanted to reassure herself that she wasn't pushing Paige into it. She wanted to believe Paige was really committed and happy about it. But of course at that point Paige has plenty of good reasons to think that Elizabeth would not accept or respect her decision to quit.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

In fact they never told that. They told her they loved them so much and they had always wanted them.

I think she never thought it was fake.

I don't think she did either--I mean, she does literally ask if they're really married, so it did enter her mind. But she knows they have sex (knows that a little too well!), sees how close the two of them are and probably never thinks it was an arranged marriage. I think she wants the kind of relationship she sees them having for herself. But I wonder what she makes of learning that the two of them both sleep with other people for their job.

13 hours ago, Andy73 said:

In START in the wood when they throw  the wedding ring and put on the real wedding ring (I really loved that scene…it broke my heart) there was a moment I felt there were only them: Page was completely out of the scene. And I feel she was feeling the same!

I love that scene so much! And it does feel like another sign to Paige that she's just so outside of everything going on. Like, why would their wedding rings be fake? Where do the other ones come from? It's another reminder that these two have whole other identities outside of these ones and she doesn't.

[Andy73]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It was always funny to me how people tended to assume he was bad at the job or not doing anything important when we're explicitly told how much they rely on him and shown him making good decisions, even if he sometimes makes mistakes. I think it was more just what people expected since he was young and just learning or something. But then, sometimes people assumed Paige was supposed to be doing well when she wasn't, maybe because of who her parents were.

You probably right. It’s strange for me because I like how we see Hans training. Elizabeth does a good job and we see Hans is very committed. Also I like Philip trust in Hans only because Elizabeth said he is a good newbie-spy. OTOH Marylin said to Elizabeth she didn’t trust in Page because she was to young…

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also, she obviously knows underneath that Paige won't approve of what they're doing. Sometimes people would say that however bad the audience thought it was for Elizabeth to recruit Paige, she thought it was 100% good. But clearly she wasn't really so sure, because she hid so much about what she was doing.

I’m not in that people: I’m not shure Elizabeth’s thought it was 100% to recruit her. Of course at least she believed it was good to tell her the truth about them (I think ep. ECHO S2 Philip: we swore we would never…it would destroy her! Liz: to be like us??” bit she didn’t want Page to be in danger!!! 

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

She wasn't always proud of it.

Oh no. I remember a Philip line in S5x03 “should we tell Page about this?” Also I think they didn’t tell her both because they are sure Page wouldn't approve and because they weren't proud about it.

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But of course at that point Paige has plenty of good reasons to think that Elizabeth would not accept or respect her decision to quit.

Yes. Page didn’t want disappoint her mom here….

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But she knows they have sex (knows that a little too well!)

Lol… definitely she knows they have sex!! I think it was the scene Kery remembered in an interview when she told that the staff understands that she is MR were together in reality.

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But I wonder what she makes of learning that the two of them both sleep with other people for their job.

Well you knows… she learned that in the last fought with her mom… and she didn’t get it so well…

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

love that scene so much! And it does feel like another sign to Paige that she's just so outside of everything going on. Like, why would their wedding rings be fake? Where do the other ones come from? It's another reminder that these two have whole other identities outside of these ones and she doesn't

Oh yes!!! I did’t think about it: good big questions for Page here. I feel she didn’t understand what going on here….and she felt herself really far from them….Definitely, that scene said so many things … and all without a word, isn’t it?

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, Andy73 said:

Lol… definitely she knows they have sex!! I think it was the scene Kery remembered in an interview when she told that the staff understands that she is MR were together in reality.

LOL Yes I saw where the crew were expecting Matthew and Keri to both be really awkward filming that, and when they weren't, they were like "So, they're obviously together." LOLOL 

I also liked Hans! I thought he was a believable new recruit and enjoyed watching him become more seasoned. I'll never forget watching the first episode of season 5, and in the first scene he was in, I thought, "Oh, Hans, you've worked out quite well! It's nice you're still around after we lost so many other cast members." And then shortly thereafter, I felt like I'd jinxed him. . . . 

[Andy73]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

LOL Yes I saw where the crew were expecting Matthew and Keri to both be really awkward filming that, and when they weren't, they were like "So, they're obviously together." LOLOL

That scene is one of the reasons I like the show so much. It’s real! A couple of my friends had a similar scene.... And they dealt with it in much the same way.

Page: “Oh my God… get back in your room Henry”…. Lol… I laughed a lot

The show offers many scenes that every couple may have experienced in their history.

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Oh, Hans, you've worked out quite well! It's nice you're still around after we lost so many other cast members." And then shortly thereafter, I felt like I'd jinxed him. . . . 

I thought the same!!! Poor Hans…. 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Andy73 said:

That scene is one of the reasons I like the show so much. It’s real! A couple of my friends had a similar scene.... And they dealt with it in much the same way.

Page: “Oh my God… get back in your room Henry”…. Lol… I laughed a lot

The show offers many scenes that every couple may have experienced in their history.

It is a very realistic scene! As hilarious as I find that scene, I think I crack up even more at the aftermath the next morning when Paige is staring at her mom putting that bacon in her mouth while Henry unwittingly prattles on about a friend of his choking on food. LOLOL 

[Andy73]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

It is a very realistic scene! As hilarious as I find that scene, I think I crack up even more at the aftermath the next morning when Paige is staring at her mom putting that bacon in her mouth while Henry unwittingly prattles on about a friend of his choking on food. LOLOL 

OMG Dear Zella… you don’t know how you are right!!! LOL. Do you believe me if I tell you I didn’t get the double meaning in that scene at first time. I’ve just rewatch now… Liz eats that bacon like she were in heaven....

Anyway, the best sex scene of all show was the tooth extraction in Open House. For God rules, it is a part of TV history!

Edited August 13, 2022 by Andy73

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Dear Zella… you don’t know how you are right!!! LOL. Do you believe me if I tell you I didn’t get the double meaning in that scene at first time. I’ve just rewatch now… Liz eats that bacon like she were in heaven....

It was only on a rewatch that I caught how weirdly hilarious Henry's little spiel about his friend choking was within that context! 😂😂😂😂

Edited August 13, 2022 by Zella

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Persona Non Grata—what a season this is. We’ve come so far since the start of it, and the end is already setting up the endgame.

THE REZIDENTURA

The three Rez characters here are all set in place for where they’ll be in S6. Tatiana loses the Kenya job (due to Oleg, though she doesn’t know that). Oleg decides to go home to be there for his mother. Arkady calls him a good son, then is blindsided when he, too, has to leave (thanks to Tatiana’s advice about keeping the mail robot!)

Arkady’s opinion of Oleg has already changed a lot since he met him, but this last step is probably still important. Oleg going home shows that he doesn’t put his career ambitions first, which will probably confirm Arkady’s thoughts about why he turned William in. That’s in contrast with Tatiana who talks about Arkady like he’s dead after he’s lost his position.

All the kids except Kimmy appear in this ep too.

HENRY

Henry ends S3 playing a boardgame with Stan; he ends this season watching the Superbowl alone. People often seem to exaggerate Henry’s time with Stan—the phase itself mostly exists only in S4, and even there when he’s at Stan’s house he’s often with Matthew, not Stan himself. Doesn’t take away from their friendship, but when people criticize P&E for not being home, they often forget that Stan’s job is just as demanding. He’s been spending days away from home according to Matthew, and isn’t watching football with Henry either.

The fact that Matthew is across the street watching the game with Paige suggests that he made it clear Henry was not invited. So Stan’s at work, like Henry’s parents, and Matthew has chosen Paige, maybe also like Henry’s parents, he thinks. Henry’s future lies in finding friends his own age and a life away from this world.

MISCHA

I remember how my heart just dropped the first thing when I realized who we were meeting in his scene. The Irina mess that would not die. I always felt—irrationally, I know—like all the time that would have been spent on Philip’s backstory was given to Irina and her relatives instead.

As usual with anything touching on Irina, we get scenes written as if the characters are all so aware of the details of what’s going on (even though they shouldn’t be) that they never say anything that nails them down for the audience, because they can’t.

Further Irina complications: Irina the fugitive somehow managed to send a sack full of contraband to her father in the USSR, and he’s managed to keep it hidden under his mattress despite his daughter being a traitor and grandson being a dissident. Irina gave Mischa some information about his father in some way at some time, who the hell knows how or when or in what context.

The point is that Grandpa is now passing the contraband on to Mischa to go find Philip. Mischa bundles up the pile of wildly illegal stuff in his coat and either takes it to his bedroom where he was raised by his grandfather (they are clearly very close—though Mischa refers to him formally because he was born in the 60s) or maybe out to wherever he lives since he got released from a mental hospital this morning, hoping that he won’t attract any attention walking along the street with something bundled in the coat he’s not wearing in Moscow in January.

I really don’t doubt that they never fleshed this stuff out. If MR the actor didn’t get a backstory for Philip, no way did these actors get any.

PAIGE

Paige has made her own decisions about moving forward. In her first two scenes she’s signaling furiously that she’s ready to replace Pastor Tim with brave Elizabeth as her new teacher. She asks for self-defense lessons and wants to strategize with Elizabeth before returning Pastor Tim’s phone call about the baby. Then she volunteers to make Elizabeth something to eat, showing that she’s ready to be a full, proactive member of the family defense team. Elizabeth in the second scene reminds me a bit of how she was in the scene where Paige had researched Gregory. She takes on a slight youth pastor vibe, the cool teacher who’s letting the kid impress her with her own ideas.

Paige has also decided to try out going out with Matthew to see if she can have relationships. She’s the one in the driver’s seat for their make-out session.

Matthew’s truly his father’s son in that I don’t want to see either one of them kissing anybody. I don’t see any particular chemistry between him and Paige, but when I think about it, he’s a pretty good match for her. She never has to deal with him being a teenage boy with interests she doesn’t share—like, if you were going out with Henry you know you’d have to listen to him chatter about whatever he was enthusiastic about at the moment. But Matthew, like Paige, seems to have few interests besides having slow, quiet conversations about parents and how they make their kids feel.

And it doesn’t seem like Matthew’s just been trained by now to know that Paige wants to hear about Stan, since he apparently talks to his friends about him too. He’s been spending time at Stan’s house for half the season, and has friends in town, but seems to spend his visits playing host to Paige and Henry. With Henry, he likes him well enough but is mostly patiently indulging him, high school senior to eighth-grader. He wants to hang out with Paige, but they never look like they’re having fun together either. Their main connection seems to be that they both have a kind of wet blanket vibe without achieving actual gloom? Like they both make just enough to jokes to be normal without having a sense of humor.

So like in S6, Paige has Elizabeth as a mentor and a boy she can potentially have a relationship with. Philip warns her off dating Matthew, again seeming to assume there’s some honey trapping involved, while Paige is oblivious to the idea. (Speaking of Paige in S6, the opening of this ep very tense, with the FBI and KGB surveilling Philip’s meeting with William and watching it, it’s is just impossible to imagine the Paige of S6 doing this job.)

Oh, another random thing is I like how Paige’s notebooks are covered with peace stickers as she asks Elizabeth to train her to fight. (She also seems to have been given a Spanish book to study, perhaps because the writers forgot they had her taking French back in S1. Or maybe I’m misreading it the cover. “Spanish pronunciation” is a bizarre text for a high school language class anyway.)

ELIZABETH

Elizabeth clearly sees Paige offering herself as a student, but still shows a little hesitation about it. She also shows some trepidation about returning to Russia. When she asks Philip if he thinks their home country has changed much, most people seemed to take the exchange to mean that Elizabeth imagined the USSR as a paradise by now while Philip was more pessimistic, but to me it seems like Elizabeth is a bit scared at the idea that it’s changed and Philip is reassuring her it won’t have changed that much. Which goes along with who Elizabeth is, and certainly where she’s going to be in S6. They’re both nervous at the idea of bringing Paige and Henry there for real, an idea that will become more important in S5 & 6.

That discussion about what present-day Russia is like cuts to the reality of Mischa in Russia. Funny that Elizabeth will try to convince herself that she can turn Paige into a Russian kid while Philip, who likes the kids as the Americans they are, has an actual Russian kid who very much wants to meet him and seems like he’s already a chip off the old block. It even makes me think how Gabriel here tells the Jennings their jobs were never meant to be permanent when Elizabeth will tell Paige in S6 that if she takes the job, it must be forever.

So Elizabeth’s going to be training Paige, and she already can’t talk about Philip going to EST without sounding like it’s an embarrassment. That lands differently when you know how dismissive of him the two of them will sometimes seem in S6.

Paige asks when Elizabeth started seeing friends after having a baby and Elizabeth says she didn’t really have friends. I like how important friends are in this series. Henry earlier pointed out Elizabeth didn’t have friends, Stan has said he doesn’t have many friends, Philip will say Stan was his only friend, Paige will say she doesn’t really have friends, Claudia talks about a friendless agent. I think that might also be why it’s so fitting that Philip and Elizabeth have a long, close relationship before they fall in love.

The center piece of this ep is William’s death. That scene winds up echoing through the rest of the series, the way it hits on so many themes, particularly for the male characters.

ADDERHOLT

Adderholt and Stan’s questions to William contrast their different styles of working. I swear there’s a scene where Adderholt tells Stan that the Illegals are “just people” while Stan just recently referred to the Russians as animals. Here Adderholt asks William if there’s someone they can contact—clearly implying family and when William says everyone who needs to know he’s there already does, Stan says they don’t know if they’ve made him talk. Then Adderholt asks if William liked what he was doing. Stan follows them up by confirming that he was still committed to doing the work. Adderholt’s questions lean toward the personal; Stan brings it back to the professional.

Obviously Adderholt’s being professional here as well. It will help him do his job to understand how Illegals tick. But he still sounds genuinely curious when he asks William questions, especially the one about whether he liked being an Illegal. It’s that sincerity, I think, that makes his offer of a coke so funny. Classic Adderholt!

PHLIIP

William has been a reflection of Philip all season, with most things Gabriel says about him applying to Philip as well. I hadn’t noticed before that Philip’s speech at EST about not liking his job anymore is basically a repetition of what William himself said in the last ep. The question Philip puts at the center of it again, it seems, is whether he is the same person who chose to take this job years ago.

William, too, talks in this ep about starting out his job feeling special, but gradually feeling cursed instead. When he says he’s still committed to it because it’s all he has left, I realized that line could have two meanings. He could be saying that no, he’s not really committed, but he does it because it’s all he has left. Or he could mean he doesn’t ask himself whether or not he’s committed because it’s all he has left.

I think it’s the latter. A man who really wasn’t committed wouldn’t have been questioning his orders the way William did, he’d just do them to do them. I think William dies without knowing how he truly felt on this subject—he simply didn’t have the means or support to really think about it.

Philip, though, does, and I think he picks up the baton, as it were, that William drops at his death and finds the answer eventually. When Gabriel and Elizabeth ask Philip whether he thinks William will betray them, Philip’s unable to answer for sure—he never thought of him as a traitor, but maybe it’s possible. He could be talking about himself there again. He knows the job is making him sick, wonders whether it’s not longer right for him the way it was at 17. Is he truly committed anymore? He doesn’t know.

Philip, like William, actually will turn out to still be committed, just in a more mature way than when he started out. At EST, the leader asks why he doesn’t quit his job that he hates. He says he made promises, people depend on him. The leader asks if he thinks his family will stop loving him or the world will stop spinning if he quits. Is he just doing this because he fears disappointing others? Philip’s going to test those things out when he quits. Philip isn’t like William--commitment is far from all Philip has in his life. When he makes the same choice as William, he’ll know he’s doing it because he is the same guy he was in fundamental ways, not for fear of losing Elizabeth’s love or disappointing others.

STAN

There was a lot of talk after this ep aired about William’s lines about the Illegals with two kids, the lucky guy with the pretty wife. Many thought Stan was thinking about it when he watched Philip leave his house with Paige. It’s too vague to be a real clue—lots of people have a wife and two kids, including Illegal Emmet Connor had a wife and two kids. But still, that line is clearly important since Stan’s going to literally hear it in his mind when he’s searching the Jennings house in S6.

Watching this ep again, I realized there could be a much better reason why the line makes an impression on Stan. Philip relates to William’s doubts about what he’s doing, but I think Stan might be the one who most relates to William’s descriptions of isolation: “There was always...A distance. A...A barrier. The absence of closeness makes you......Dry inside.” That seems like something that would resonate with Stan, the guy who couldn’t reconnect with his family. (Elizabeth will relate to this as well in S6, of course—that picture she likes so much is literally a woman behind glass.)

I could easily believe that when Stan looks at Philip, he sees him like William does, as someone who’s able to connect to other people. When Philip is leaving, too, there’s a shot of Stan’s foyer that underlines how empty the house is. There’s just this whole empty shelf. Great set dressing for character, but you also don’t feature it so prominently for no reason.

Stan got a lot of criticism first time around for his behavior in that last scene, in fact. People thought he was being insensitive by joking with Philip about how their kids were making out according to the rules of how dads are supposed to be freaked out about their daughters being besmirched by sex. But I think what’s more important about Stan there isn’t that he’s insulting Philip—he’s not, since Philip doesn’t have those hang-ups—it’s that Stan is showing his goofy, almost childlike romantic side again—he sees their kids making out and gleefully talks about him and Philip being in-laws. Like he’d maybe be so happy to be family.

[Andy73]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Just watched Persona Non Grata—what a season this is. We’ve come so far since the start of it, and the end is already setting up the endgame.

Thank you for your post. I feel JJ knew where they wanted to go.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

THE REZIDENTURA

The three Rez characters here are all set in place for where they’ll be in S6. Tatiana loses the Kenya job (due to Oleg, though she doesn’t know that). Oleg decides to go home to be there for his mother. Arkady calls him a good son, then is blindsided when he, too, has to leave (thanks to Tatiana’s advice about keeping the mail robot!)

Arkady’s opinion of Oleg has already changed a lot since he met him, but this last step is probably still important. Oleg going home shows that he doesn’t put his career ambitions first, which will probably confirm Arkady’s thoughts about why he turned William in. That’s in contrast with Tatiana who talks about Arkady like he’s dead after he’s lost his position.

I understood Arkady and Oleg journey, honestly not Tatiana’s. I didn’t understand why she became a member of hard KGB. I know she is furios with Oleg, but why Arkady?

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

MISCHA

I remember how my heart just dropped the first thing when I realized who we were meeting in his scene. The Irina mess that would not die. I always felt—irrationally, I know—like all the time that would have been spent on Philip’s backstory was given to Irina and her relatives instead.

As usual with anything touching on Irina, we get scenes written as if the characters are all so aware of the details of what’s going on (even though they shouldn’t be) that they never say anything that nails them down for the audience, because they can’t.

Further Irina complications: Irina the fugitive somehow managed to send a sack full of contraband to her father in the USSR, and he’s managed to keep it hidden under his mattress despite his daughter being a traitor and grandson being a dissident. Irina gave Mischa some information about his father in some way at some time, who the hell knows how or when or in what context.

The point is that Grandpa is now passing the contraband on to Mischa to go find Philip. Mischa bundles up the pile of wildly illegal stuff in his coat and either takes it to his bedroom where he was raised by his grandfather (they are clearly very close—though Mischa refers to him formally because he was born in the 60s) or maybe out to wherever he lives since he got released from a mental hospital this morning, hoping that he won’t attract any attention walking along the street with something bundled in the coat he’s not wearing in Moscow in January.

I really don’t doubt that they never fleshed this stuff out. If MR the actor didn’t get a backstory for Philip, no way did these actors get any.

We already spent a lot words about Misha and Irina stuff. More I think about this, less it convinces me. I thin that is the only one second story didn’t work.

All characters have a credible background, either Misha and Irina no.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

PAIGE….

I think she is moving from Pastor Tim to her mom because she is feeling like she was betrayed by Pastor Tim. Never disappoint a teenager.

Also I feel she understood what her Mom told her in 4x08 (the famous Keri’s vein scene).
 

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth clearly sees Paige offering herself as a student, but still shows a little hesitation about it. She also shows some trepidation about returning to Russia. When she asks Philip if he thinks their home country has changed much, most people seemed to take the exchange to mean that Elizabeth imagined the USSR as a paradise by now while Philip was more pessimistic, but to me it seems like Elizabeth is a bit scared at the idea that it’s changed and Philip is reassuring her it won’t have changed that much. Which goes along with who Elizabeth is, and certainly where she’s going to be in S6. They’re both nervous at the idea of bringing Paige and Henry there for real, an idea that will become more important in S5 & 6

I think Elizabeth was afraid of the idea of going home. On side she didn’t really know how home is changed… on the other side she was committed in America and she was sure she was doing a good thing for her Country. 
 

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It even makes me think how Gabriel here tells the Jennings their jobs were never meant to be permanent when Elizabeth will tell Paige in S6 that if she takes the job, it must be forever.

this is linked to what I wrote above. IMHO Elizabeth felt that the scope of her life was to serve his country. And this is forever.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I like how important friends are in this series

Me too. The show talk about people need  connections with other people! Page felt herself alone and she joined in her mom teams, Philip with Stan and vice-versa. William says loneliness made him dry-inside…. After last fought with her daughter Elizabeth realized only person who understands her is her husband…

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The center piece of this ep is William’s death. That scene winds up echoing through the rest of the series, the way it hits on so many themes, particularly for the male characters.

Oh yes!!!

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

PHLIIP

William has been a reflection of Philip all season, with most things Gabriel says about him applying to Philip as well. I hadn’t noticed before that Philip’s speech at EST about not liking his job anymore is basically a repetition of what William himself said in the last ep. The question Philip puts at the center of it again, it seems, is whether he is the same person who chose to take this job years ago.

I loved your analysis about Philip here.

I feel Philip didn’t see himself like William. He was afraid to became like him. But he felt close himself with William POV. He understands his doubts.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

When he makes the same choice as William, he’ll know he’s doing it because he is the same guy he was in fundamental ways, not for fear of losing Elizabeth’s love or disappointing others

Totally agree. at least  Philip made his journey . He understood who he is. On a thousand occasions he could have thrown everything behind him... I also think of the final of S5 when he decides to hold the tape and tell its contents to his wife. If he hadn't, they would have come home and no one would have known anything. Philip  takes the decisions he takes because he believes it!!!

…. to be continued…

[Andy73]

I’ here again.

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

ADDERHOLT

Adderholt and Stan’s questions to William contrast their different styles of working. I swear there’s a scene where Adderholt tells Stan that the Illegals are “just people” while Stan just recently referred to the Russians as animals. Here Adderholt asks William if there’s someone they can contact—clearly implying family and when William says everyone who needs to know he’s there already does, Stan says they don’t know if they’ve made him talk. Then Adderholt asks if William liked what he was doing. Stan follows them up by confirming that he was still committed to doing the work. Adderholt’s questions lean toward the personal; Stan brings it back to the professional.

Obviously Adderholt’s being professional here as well. It will help him do his job to understand how Illegals tick. But he still sounds genuinely curious when he asks William questions, especially the one about whether he liked being an Illegal. It’s that sincerity, I think, that makes his offer of a coke so funny. Classic Adderholt!

I think Adderolht is the best FBI agent we see in the show. He uses a difference style work here with William compared to Father Andrej. He is more aggressive with Father Andrej. It seems he evaluates in different way the two of them. I feel he respects William determination. 

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

STAN

Watching this ep again, I realized there could be a much better reason why the line makes an impression on Stan. Philip relates to William’s doubts about what he’s doing, but I think Stan might be the one who most relates to William’s descriptions of isolation: “There was always...A distance. A...A barrier. The absence of closeness makes you......Dry inside.” That seems like something that would resonate with Stan, the guy who couldn’t reconnect with his family. (Elizabeth will relate to this as well in S6, of course—that picture she likes so much is literally a woman behind glass.)

Oh…. Never thought! Thank you. Those lines must have strike Stan. They sound like something for him… and of course for Elizabeth in S6.

[sistermagpie]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

Thank you for your post. I feel JJ knew where they wanted to go.

I understood Arkady and Oleg journey, honestly not Tatiana’s. I didn’t understand why she became a member of hard KGB. I know she is furios with Oleg, but why Arkady?

Was she furious with Arkady? I can't even remember if she knew Arkady was the one who sent Oleg to the US in S6? But if so, I guess it was probably because of that. I guess if she suspected by then that Oleg turned William in--which she must have because Oleg was directly questioned about it--she'd resent Arkady for obviously still liking him. It must have been humiliating to her.

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

I think she is moving from Pastor Tim to her mom because she is feeling like she was betrayed by Pastor Tim. Never disappoint a teenager.

Yeah, on rewatch I really feel like Pastor Tim's arc is clearer. He gives her terrible advice when she tells him the truth, and then just backs off to protect his own family once he gets a clue, leaving the threat of that tape over her family's head. Seemingly without even ever talking about that with her.

I think that tape is really a source of fear for her too, so she sees him as a threat and is desperate to feel safer--which Elizabeth had told her back in the Keri vein scene. Now that she knows her tiny Mom is a badass and brave, she has something in her to admire. She also knows her dad is brave, but she hasn't seen him do anything.

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

I think Elizabeth was afraid of the idea of going home. On side she didn’t really know how home is changed… on the other side she was committed in America and she was sure she was doing a good thing for her Country. 

Yeah, I think Elizabeth has a lot of unexamined feelings about a lot of things. And sometimes she probably makes things worse by clinging to what she thinks she should believe.

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

this is linked to what I wrote above. IMHO Elizabeth felt that the scope of her life was to serve his country. And this is forever.

But she also knows for a fact it doesn't have to be. Gabriel retired. She and Philip almost retire at the end of S5. Philip mostly retires. That's why it seems to blatantly not true in S6. She's even comparing her to Philip, saying Philip committed to this younger than Paige is in S6. So yeah, it's like when she says that she's referring to something she needs, rather than any real rule. Paige is just a low-level helper who might just no longer be useful one day, after all.

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

I feel Philip didn’t see himself like William. He was afraid to became like him. But he felt close himself with William POV. He understands his doubts.

Yes--agree. I don't think he recognizes himself, just the doubts. He's not so self-aware that he sees it that way--at least not consciously.

On 8/14/2022 at 9:59 AM, Andy73 said:

Totally agree. at least  Philip made his journey . He understood who he is. On a thousand occasions he could have thrown everything behind him... I also think of the final of S5 when he decides to hold the tape and tell its contents to his wife. If he hadn't, they would have come home and no one would have known anything. Philip  takes the decisions he takes because he believes it!!!

…. to be continued…

Yup. He knows Elizabeth isn't going to want to leave with that tape, but he can't throw it away either. And I don't think it's just because he didn't want to carry that big of a lie.

On 8/14/2022 at 12:15 PM, Andy73 said:

I’ here again.

I think Adderolht is the best FBI agent we see in the show. He uses a difference style work here with William compared to Father Andrej. He is more aggressive with Father Andrej. It seems he evaluates in different way the two of them. I feel he respects William determination. 

Absolutely. And he's so deliberate even when he's being aggressive. He's very good at not taking stuff personally.

[Andy73]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Was she furious with Arkady? I can't even remember if she knew Arkady was the one who sent Oleg to the US in S6?

No, she isn’t furious whit Arkady. I misunderstood your post. Sorry my fault.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I guess if she suspected by then that Oleg turned William

We know she suspected! She said that clearly to Oleg in S6 when they met each other.

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup. He knows Elizabeth isn't going to want to leave with that tape, but he can't throw it away either. And I don't think it's just because he didn't want to carry that big of a lie.

Agree! He is still committed with this. Serving his country. We already said: people thought Philip never defect only because Elizabeth; I disagree: when he can choose, he always chooses his country, he chooses to stay in.

And of course he didn’t want to carry that big lie…. He knows very well that it’s bad to lie to Elizabeth… he learned his lesson

[sistermagpie]

On 8/17/2022 at 3:29 AM, Andy73 said:

We know she suspected! She said that clearly to Oleg in S6 when they met each other.

That's right--as I was writing that I remembered that Oleg is openly questioned about it because everybody suspects him.

On 8/17/2022 at 3:29 AM, Andy73 said:

Agree! He is still committed with this. Serving his country. We already said: people thought Philip never defect only because Elizabeth; I disagree: when he can choose, he always chooses his country, he chooses to stay in.

And of course he didn’t want to carry that big lie…. He knows very well that it’s bad to lie to Elizabeth… he learned his lesson

Yes, I think Philip often relies on--and appreciates--having Elizabeth there to voice the things in himself he doesn't say, just as she does with him. It reminds me of stuff I noticed and I think talked about in David Copperfield here - 

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Amber Waves. The fifth season was never my favorite, but hoping to get more out of it on second watch.

THE HOLE

Prestige TV is known for its appreciation of process, and in general I’m in favor of it, but spending this much time—over 12 minutes!—on the hole digging still doesn’t seem justified. Beyond it being a good idea to have people switch on and off digging, we don’t see anything people wouldn’t already assume about hole digging here, and it’s not delicate enough to be interesting to just watch. (Though the team looks hilarious coming out of the woods together, like the Munchkins coming out of hiding in WOO.)

Plus, it gives you time to ask questions. Like: 1. Why is Elizabeth even there? Because she’s the star of the show, yes, but she’s still a tiny woman with relatively little upper body strength. There’s a reason all the other diggers are men. 2. How do they cover up the hole so it doesn’t look like it was dug up? Presumably that’s why they can hide Hans in the grave. I feel like that requires more skill than digging. 3. If we’re going to see the process of something, why not something spy-related that’s part of their usual job? For instance, we start this ep only a few weeks after the end of S4 and the Jennings are already set up in a whole new house with a fake kid. I’d be more interested in seeing how they create different disguises to match the parts they're playing, which we see the result of all the time. 4. I appreciate the big sign on William’s body that says DO NOT BURN to acknowledge the idea but…still seems like they obviously ought to have burned the body.

The timeline for this season in general is, iirc, ridiculously compressed. Elizabeth tells Tuan they “have time” so he doesn’t have to rush things with Pasha, but they’re already deep into this operation within less than a month and technically, we should be talking about 4 months for the whole season.

THE BUROVS

As a New Yorker, Oleg’s family apartment looks AMAZING to me. So much space! Even a working fireplace! His poor mother is so intensely afraid, and knowing her past she has good reason to be. You can see why Oleg wanted to be there for her. This show has so many different parent/child relationships and while there’s some ideas that repeat, they don’t all fall into a simple pattern. Oleg is really sweet with his mother. You can see how no matter how much of a spoiled kid he seemed when we met him, he’s a good guy at heart.

MISCHA

And now we’ve got another son in Russian, Mischa! Irina sort of appears just once in this ep when Mischa remembers what is I guess a letter she wrote. In the time it takes her to read that short letter she manages to create more problems as usual. Like when the hell did she send this thing? She was running off in S1, had been caught in S3 while Mischa was in Afghanistan, and he’d recently come home after the time jump in S4. How did Irina send him a letter from jail about being happy he’s home and unhurt? A letter where she openly talks about the contraband she’s somehow gotten to him and their illegal plans for his escape from the USSR?

HENRY

Right out of the gate we hear that Henry’s got something new going on, so he’s no longer “always” at Stan’s and perhaps hasn’t been for a while. That’s a phase that seemed to have lasted from early March 1983 to at the latest January 1984. Paige is now the one coming home with leftovers from Stan’s place while Henry, judging by the place settings, was eating at home with their parents (and presumably will be watching the Olympics with them). This show has always characterized teenagers as going through phrases, trying on different identities, in keeping with the themes of the show, so Henry’s behavior isn’t unusual at all. Though it seems like he’s the type to hold onto certain aspects of each phase when it’s over (like he’s still friends with Stan).

STAN

Having wondered if William’s speech about not connecting to people really got to Stan in the last ep, I can see it motivating him now. He started joking about Paige and Matthew getting married as soon as he caught them making out and he’s still almost giddy about it in this ep. Philip’s got his own reasons for not wanting Matthew and Paige together, but he still has a far more realistic view of their relationship than Stan. Stan’s also making the effort to host the kids for a real dinner. This might also be why he’s so optimistic about meeting this new woman who’ll turn out to be Renee. He’s grabbing at every chance for a quick and easy connection and family.

All of that, to me, works together to explain why Stan’s so vulnerable to spies. He makes this awkward little speech to Paige about how it was hard for Matthew at first, spending time at Stan’s, but the Jennings have made it better for him. That would be great if Matthew had moved to a new town with Stan or something, but Matthew already has friends in Falls Church. He’s not there to be entertained or find other people to spend time with. Stan’s basically thanking the Jennings for making it less obvious that he’s not doing the work to repair their relationship. As long as Matthew looks happy to be there, that’s all Stan needs. Presumably that’s also why he loves the idea of becoming part of the Jennings family somehow for real—even joking about them all living in one house. Like on the one hand he’s scared of being alone, but otoh he doesn’t want to deal with relationships or his own mistakes too deeply—exactly what broke up his actual family in seasons past. What a perfect mark!

PAIGE

I’m trying to figure out exactly where Paige is coming from in this first ep. She’s going against her parents by dating Matthew, though there’s not a single moment where she seems to actually enjoy the relationship for itself that much. That much makes sense—it’s in character for her to see if “having a boyfriend” will work with a guy she’s not that into and decide it won’t. After dinner at Stan’s, she confronts her parents. (She begins by following the Jennings family rule that if someone asks you what you’re reading you have to hold up the book and make them read the title instead of telling them. Then she shuts the book without marking her place!)

At first, she tries to force the conversation along more normal lines. When Philip asks if she was alone with Matthew, she says they “just talked” as if Philip is worried about Matthew touching her boobs instead of worried about Paige talking to him. Unable to avoid her parents’ probing, she finally just says she’s got more important problems—she can’t sleep.

Not sleeping has been a consistent thing with Paige since back in S1. It’s the tell that means she’s in distress. I assume the reason she’s baked cookies after coming home from Stan’s is to find things to do rather than think or sleep.

She says she’s having nightmares, imagining the man Elizabeth stabbed. Elizabeth will respond to this by teaching her how to commit violence herself and Paige is up for that, but that does avoid the fact that she was traumatized more by Elizabeth’s actions than the guy’s threat.

A funny clothing note: Paige never looks sloppy when hanging out at home, yet the first time we see her wearing a sweatshirt is the very moment Elizabeth is going to pull her into the garage to work out.

Anyway, I was particularly curious about Paige's attempt to explain her nightmare problem. Philip says it’ll get better. She says she doesn’t want it to get better, that, “You don’t want me seeing Matthew, I’m too scared to go to the food pantry alone, and none of it is supposed to…”

I’m not sure exactly what she’s saying there. On first watch I thought her “I don’t want it to get better” was her saying that she didn’t want to become more okay with violence, but maybe not. What is it “supposed to” here? None of it is supposed to bother her? None of it is supposed to be happening? That latter seems like it might work best, like she’s saying their job isn’t supposed to affect her life, but it is?

PHILIP

I feel like a lot of ideas in this season are better on paper than on screen. I definitely think it intentionally introduces characters that reflect P&E, and that might be more interesting on second watch.

For instance, I realized that when they work their job with the Morozovs both Jennings are watching their preferred futures play out. In earlier seasons, they were worried about who would take care of the kids if something happened to them. Now they’re starting to think about how to hold onto the kids when they grow up.

For a while now, Philip’s been pushing for returning to Russia where they can live as themselves, so basically pulling an Alexei Morozov. Too bad things aren’t going very well for Alexei. It’s not even just that Pasha—who doesn’t particularly call to mind either Jennings kid specifically—is miserable and isolated because he can’t speak English well (although he at least speaks it, which is more than we can say for the Jennings and Russian); the family dynamics are strained because of it. If they returned to Russia Elizabeth would probably enjoy finally being able to say how she hates the US just as Alexei does with Russia, and be just as unable to admit to anything she doesn’t like about Russia, while Philip would probably be the “coddler” who feels bad for the kids. (Btw, Evgenia is hilarious listening to her husband prattle on.)

Philip’s obviously surprised when Elizabeth tells him she taught Paige some self-defense, but doesn’t object. His policy with the kids tends to be to let them explore things themselves without trying to manipulate them, so he may just be thinking that if Paige wants to learn, she should, even if he associates it with work. But he does seem to see himself and Elizabeth having different priorities with Paige—his being to convince her to dump Matthew.

ELIZABETH

Elizabeth, meanwhile, has her own ideas for how to hold to the kids: recruitment. She’s been openly talking about that re: Paige since the end of S2. Even when she tells Philip she’s started teaching Paige self-defense she says, “She’s fast,” as if she’s assessing her abilities and potential instead of talking about how this will help Paige with her own problems. This despite the fact that Elizabeth loses yet another of her adopted recruits later in this ep.

In the Morozov operation, Elizabeth gets to play her fantasy solution out with Tuan. And so far, it’s working really well! I think it’s significant that Philip’s potential solution (taking the kids to another country) is playing out with a real family with messy feelings while Elizabeth’s is playing out with actors. Tuan isn’t an American teenager who shares her passion for the Cause, he’s an adult Vietnamese Intelligence officer pretending to be an American kid.

We already know that Elizabeth is more adept even than most at seeing what she wants to see, and watching this situation now, you can see how Philip is going to decide himself that his solution won’t work with Henry, while Elizabeth is going to be blindsided by losing Paige.

Gabriel tells them what happened to William. Elizabeth thinks about how he suffered, but resolutely declares him a hero. Originally, I thought Philip was being sarcastic like William when he said maybe he’d get a stamp, but on rewatch he sounds like he genuinely thinks he deserves one. He also feels bad about doubting him, knowing that he sacrificed his life to protect them. Philip had the most personal relationship with William, it seems, and I think William’s end gives him one more reason to not give in to cynicism.

Edited October 3, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Andy73]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Just watched Amber Waves. The fifth season was never my favorite, but hoping to get more out of it on second watch.

I liked the fifth season. Maybe not like the others but I found it interesting and certainly set the basis for the sixth season and the final.

There are many scenes from this season that I remember with pleasure:

- P&E kill the technician in the lab (yes I know: it's terrible but the scene is wonderful) and Philip’s line: we should tell this to Page?

- Elizabeth disguise…

- The real weeding

- P, E and Page in darkroom

- Elizabeth's incredulous and disgusted look when she realizes that Philip won't shoot in Dyatkovo

and other funny lines…

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

THE HOLE

I found the whole scene brilliant! 12 minutes during which I wondered what was going to happen... and when everything seems to be ok, here comes Elizabeth’s shot as a punch in the mouth!!

Oh your questions are mine too…

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

BUROV

….Oleg is really sweet with his mother. You can see how no matter how much of a spoiled kid he seemed when we met him, he’s a good guy at heart.

Here we can see Oleg define himself and we can understand why he will comeback in US in S6.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

MISCHA

Uhm….Have we already said that this storyline is one of the few things that doesn't work???

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

STAN

As I said, the path to the S6 begins. Stan  begins to have problems with work and begins to feel the need for connection with other people. He gets closer and closer to the Jennings and ties up to Rene. Those will make realistic the garage scene.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

PAIGE

…. Not sleeping has been a consistent thing with Paige since back in S1. It’s the tell that means she’s in distress.

Good call!

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I’m not sure exactly what she’s saying there. On first watch I thought her “I don’t want it to get better” was her saying that she didn’t want to become more okay with violence, but maybe not. What is it “supposed to” here? None of it is supposed to bother her? None of it is supposed to be happening? That latter seems like it might work best, like she’s saying their job isn’t supposed to affect her life, but it is?

I think your first idea was correct:  I think she believes that forgetting what happened is wrong because it could mean becoming a bad person.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

PHILIP

If Tuan is Elizabeth without Philip, the Morozovs are the Jennings in Russia.

And Philip understand the best plan for Henry is stay in US. 
And he believes it so much that he will be able to convince Elizabeth... he never falters, not even in the face of her despair.

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

ELIZABETH

Here we can see how Elizabeth would be if Philip was out of her life.. if she would work alone. And she knows it very well. She will tell It to Tuan. 
For 8 EP. S6 we will think that Elizabeth’s prophecy has come true. We thought she had become like Tuan, we thought she  lost herself. 

And finally:

thank you for another your wonderful post!!!

Edited October 3, 2022 by Andy73
Added some scene that I remember pleasantly

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t think it matters that Paige didn’t really know anything.   She is still a real life proof of concept that the Russians had spies in the US.  She could also fill in the blanks and confirm things for the FBI. Even if it is an educational guess she could confirm that Yes Philip is the guy who turned Martha.    “Dad would spend a couple nights ever week out and said it was business.  I thought he was cheating on mom but mom said he wasn’t so I let it go.”   Even if she was low level she could probably give them a few names,  a few dates,  and confirm some bad things that the FBI believed that they had no evidence of.    

Enough to make a deal.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Andy73 said:

There are many scenes from this season that I remember with pleasure:

This is the way I remember the season too--more specific scenes than whole storylines. And in retrospect already some of them seem different to me.

On 10/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Andy73 said:

As I said, the path to the S6 begins. Stan  begins to have problems with work and begins to feel the need for connection with other people. He gets closer and closer to the Jennings and ties up to Rene. Those will make realistic the garage scene.

It's going to be really interesting watching this one again just for that reason. Like the way it seems like Stan's first thought on coming out of his divorce blues is to want to give back to the Jennings and be closer to them. Interesting that in the 6th season he seems to imply that while married to Renee he doesn't hang out as much with Philip, though there's no reason for him not to, since he did it when he was married to Sandra. Maybe the reason is that Renee shares to many of his hobbies she keeps him away.

On 10/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Andy73 said:

I think your first idea was correct:  I think she believes that forgetting what happened is wrong because it could mean becoming a bad person.

Yes, she says the thing about not wanting things to get easier in response to Philip talking about her flashbacks to the murder--before she brings up the other things in her life. And frankly, that just seems like what her perspective would be. Both thinking it would make her a bad person and just not wanting to have to get used to this sort of thing. That seems important to me, because I feel like it's one of those moments when Paige states something about herself she knows to be true, that she will have tried to give up in S6.

In general, the main important thing for Paige in this season is it seems like she feels like more and more roads get closed off for her, to where she embraces the idea that she has to just give in and be Elizabeth, for a number of reasons. So these things could already be starting that--they've made her afraid to move around freely or have a boyfriend. Her life is being taken over by them already.

On 10/3/2022 at 12:21 PM, Andy73 said:

Here we can see how Elizabeth would be if Philip was out of her life.. if she would work alone. And she knows it very well. She will tell It to Tuan. 
For 8 EP. S6 we will think that Elizabeth’s prophecy has come true. We thought she had become like Tuan, we thought she  lost herself. 

To be fair, she probably *was* like Tuan when she was his age. This is the person she probably was with Gregory and thought she should hold on to along with him. Gregory seems to be saying as much to Philip. But she's warning him about needing something more in time.

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think it matters that Paige didn’t really know anything.   She is still a real life proof of concept that the Russians had spies in the US she could also fill in the blanks and confirm things for the FBI. Even if is an education guess she could confirm that Yes Philip is the guy who turned Martha.    “Dad would spend a couple nights ever week out and said it was business.  I thought he was cheating on mom but mom said he wasn’t so I let it go.”   Even if she was low level she could probably give them a few names,  a few dates,  and confirm some bad things that the FBI believed that they had no evidence of.    

Enough to make a deal.

I think I tend to vaguely imagine her being under some kind of punishment, but not in prison. In general her biggest problem to me seems to me that she willingly assisted in very serious crimes that even included murder--sometimes without being aware of it  (or at least she's never admitted to being aware of it). So the most specific information she could give would incriminate her and really outweigh any blanks she'd be filling in. Stan would probably have to hire her a great lawyer to get her a good deal. 

That said, while many think of Paige and Henry becoming famous because of this, the show itself never has Illegals becoming a big news story. If the US Government didn't want William's capture to be public, I can easily imagine them not wanting the Jennings to be either. It's hardly a good look for them that they had a counterintel agent living across the street and being really good friends with them--even introducing them to other agents (and possibly turning out to be married to yet another Illegal) and the Jennings got away to enjoy their hero's welcome home in Russia. So they might much prefer to go easy on Paige (having rightly seen that she's an unlikely repeat offender), get all the information they can from her and her brother, include some non-disclosure stuff in the deal and keep the whole thing relatively quiet out of embarassment. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I tend to vaguely imagine her being under some kind of punishment, but not in prison. In general her biggest problem to me seems to me that she willingly assisted in very serious crimes that even included murder--sometimes without being aware of it  (or at least she's never admitted to being aware of it). So the most specific information she could give would incriminate her and really outweigh any blanks she'd be filling in. Stan would probably have to hire her a great lawyer to get her a good deal. 

That said, while many think of Paige and Henry becoming famous because of this, the show itself never has Illegals becoming a big news story. If the US Government didn't want William's capture to be public, I can easily imagine them not wanting the Jennings to be either. It's hardly a good look for them that they had a counterintel agent living across the street and being really good friends with them--even introducing them to other agents (and possibly turning out to be married to yet another Illegal) and the Jennings got away to enjoy their hero's welcome home in Russia. So they might much prefer to go easy on Paige (having rightly seen that she's an unlikely repeat offender), get all the information they can from her and her brother, include some non-disclosure stuff in the deal and keep the whole thing relatively quiet out of embarassment. 

I wound up thinking more about this - LOL. Not about legal details or whatever, but about why the legal details aren't what's guiding anything. 

I realized I thought the end of the show was about characters facing the consequences of their choices. And obviously in practical terms there are multiple consequences that they all have for those choices--it's not like running back to Russia alone was the only potential consequences for P&E. The ones that are chosen are the ones that play out the emotional choices they were making and the themes of the show, especially choices about connection.

P&E both kept choosing the job over setting up a longterm family situation. So returning as heroes but having lost their family makes the most sense for them--especially since they didn't arrive at their choices exactly the same way, and so didn't lose their children exactly the same way. (I think the Harvest death scene is connected to this.) They also did continue to choose each other, so they're still together.

The only character who ends the show with legal consequences is Oleg, but that makes sense since he chose to leave the safety of his powerful family and his child for this last mission. 

Stan chooses to protect the Jennings, so does not get to be the hero and feels even more isolated from his fellow agents and countrymen - but he has held onto his family connection to the Jennings (secrets always having been part of the Jennings family!).

Henry chose to save himself by fleeing the situation when he started to notice something wrong at home, so he ends up not having gotten the chance to know his parents, barely part of the story, not fully connected to anyone else in the story, including Stan. People are always very eager to make the Stan/Henry friendship one that provides absolutely everything each of them needs, but it's more complicated than that. They're not two puzzle pieces that fit neatly together to make a whole.

Paige chose to follow Elizabeth, which could have legal consequences obviously, but that just doesn't seem like it has anything to do with her story. She did that in despair of ever having her own life, so it's more fitting that she ends not having to face a jail sentence (which would take life as she knew it away, and she already had that happen) but with just empty road before her. She got off the train to be true to herself, not face punishment for her crimes, and an ironic ending where she's sent to another environment where she has no control, lives under someone else's authority and is defined by labels other people give her just isn't the vibe I'm getting from the show. Facing some fallout would be a necessary first step--that's part of facing her choices. But in the larger sense, she chose herself over her parents' company, so her ending is about finding herself alone with no one telling her where to go.

[Roseanna]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

They also did continue to choose each other, so they're still together.

I think it's essential that they truly know each other.

A lonely spy is in danger to lose herself because she must always play a role. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it's essential that they truly know each other.

A lonely spy is in danger to lose herself because she must always play a role. 

True--trusting each other and letting the other person know them is really central to their relationship and how they cultivated it. By the end of the series they both were probably most confident about each other, even when they were fighting. But of course it didn't have to be that way and wasn't in the beginning of their marriage.

[Andy73]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:07 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think it matters that Paige didn’t really know anything.   She is still a real life proof of concept that the Russians had spies in the US.  She could also fill in the blanks and confirm things for the FBI. Even if it is an educational guess she could confirm that Yes Philip is the guy who turned Martha.    “Dad would spend a couple nights ever week out and said it was business.  I thought he was cheating on mom but mom said he wasn’t so I let it go.”   Even if she was low level she could probably give them a few names,  a few dates,  and confirm some bad things that the FBI believed that they had no evidence of.    

Enough to make a deal.

On 10/5/2022 at 2:02 AM, sistermagpie said:

I think I tend to vaguely imagine her being under some kind of punishment, but not in prison

On 10/5/2022 at 5:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

I realized I thought the end of the show was about characters facing the consequences of their choices

I agree. IMHO the aim of the show is a story about a marriage and the connection with people…. Then spy story….I've never seen the JJ intention to punish Page. They leave her there…. alone …. with a big question mark about her future.

I think one of the reasons Page stayed in the US was his brother. She couldn't stand the idea of leaving him alone... 

On 10/5/2022 at 5:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

The ones that are chosen are the ones that play out the emotional choices they were making and the themes of the show, especially choices about connection.

I love your  point of view!!!

On 10/5/2022 at 5:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

P&E both kept choosing the job over setting up a longterm family situation

At least there is only one thing over their job: their relationship. 
If you think about it, they have always put the other in front of everything since the pilot. Take the order to tell Page the truth: Elizabeth was determined to obey, she thought it was right... but she didn't say it behind Philip's back... they told him together, when Page asked.  And I don’t mention Philip!

On 10/5/2022 at 5:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

Henry chose to save himself by fleeing the situation when he started to notice something wrong at home, so he ends up not having gotten the chance to know his parents, barely part of the story, not fully connected to anyone else in the story, including Stan. People are always very eager to make the Stan/Henry friendship one that provides absolutely everything each of them needs, but it's more complicated than that. They're not two puzzle pieces that fit neatly together to make a whole

Totally agree!!!

At least Henry is the healthy, innocent, part of the family and he is the one who saves his parents and, at the same time, condemns them by talking to Stan!

We always thought he was a second character in the show but actually in S6 he plays a key role.

On 10/8/2022 at 9:34 PM, Roseanna said:

I think it's essential that they truly know each other.

A lonely spy is in danger to lose herself because she must always play a role. 

I agree… but imho it’s more complex. Look Harvest or William… they didn’t lost themself… I think P&E realized that they had found their own soul mate.

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

True--trusting each other and letting the other person know them is really central to their relationship and how they cultivated it. By the end of the series they both were probably most confident about each other, even when they were fighting

I definitely agree!

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But of course it didn't have to be that way and wasn't in the beginning of their marriage.

Here I’m not sure! I mean, I think they trust each other on the job and Philip trust Elizabeth at 360: he would never have proposed to her to defect if he didn't trust her ... 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Andy73
Correct wrong quote… sorry

[Andy73]

2x01 Comrades

Just watched for second time… uhm… may be the third! Lol

I had incredibly forgotten how clever this show was at creating tension.

And this episode stands out precisely for this: it is the small gestures that increase the heartbeat: a terrified look of Elizabeth, the sealing the house... Philip's stutter....

I didn't remember how traumatized Elizabeth was by the massacre of Emmet's family... it seems like she's handling it worse.
 

In the first part of the episode we see the confirmation of what had already become increasingly evident in the second part of last season: the strengthening of the ideas and character of Philip who went hand in hand with a softening of Elizabeth – certainly no less devoted to the cause, but more aware of her feelings as a person and not only as a soldier of Russia.

Many peoples  probably have already thought about it : Elizabeth's meeting with Bambi's family suggests that the season will talk us about the protection of kids....

The scenes I preferred:

Breakfast: hearing Henry talk about the friend who was going to suffocate because of the apple while Elizabeth eats bacon ecstatic (ok... it must have been good, but really good...) after what happened at night, it's priceless! It was the top in terms of double senses and irony!

Stan: I think a bullet was enough!

Elizabeth and Leanne sitting on the car: I loved Elizabeth's face when she tells her that things between her and Phil are fine ip. It reminded me of a teenager in love!!

Philip in spy mode: ok the shock but what has to be done must be done: ’‘Elizabeth , the kids…’‘ and then he goes into the closet for the suitcase with the cipher ...’

At the carnival: Elizabeth immediately realizes that Philip is working with Henry by his side...

The Jennings family happy at the carnival

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I agree. IMHO the aim of the show is a story about a marriage and the connection with people…. Then spy story….I've never seen the JJ intention to punish Page. They leave her there…. alone …. with a big question mark about her future.

Yes, also even trying to focusing on jail or making deals is again focusing on spy stuff when it's not really about that. Paige herself probably isn't thinking of deals with the FBI when she gets off the train--when her parents come to get her we see how disconnected she is to all of that. 

Thinking back one of the things that impresses me about the beginning of S6 is how clearly, in retrospect, the show was saying that hers wasn't a spy story. Viewers kept looking for one in it, but from beginning it's really not. 

8 hours ago, Andy73 said:

At least there is only one thing over their job: their relationship. 
If you think about it, they have always put the other in front of everything since the pilot. Take the order to tell Page the truth: Elizabeth was determined to obey, she thought it was right... but she didn't say it behind Philip's back... they told him together, when Page asked.  And I don’t mention Philip!

Yes, once they make the decision to try marriage again, they never really let that come between them. They argue about the job seriously, but the don't ultimately betray each other for it, even if it seems like it could come to that.

8 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Here I’m not sure! I mean, I think they trust each other on the job and Philip trust Elizabeth at 360: he would never have proposed to her to defect if he didn't trust her ... 

And she was going to let him after learning she was a perk as a cadet. 

4 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I didn't remember how traumatized Elizabeth was by the massacre of Emmet's family... it seems like she's handling it worse.

Also it's happening right after she returns from recovering from being shot and seems ready to commit to them and enjoy them more and protect them. 

4 hours ago, Andy73 said:

Elizabeth and Leanne sitting on the car: I loved Elizabeth's face when she tells her that things between her and Phil are fine ip. It reminded me of a teenager in love!!

I love how Leanne seems to know about their marriage troubles. Could be that Claudia passed along some gossip, but I feel like Leanne has known Elizabeth wasn't really into marriage for years. We never get any scenes with Philip and Emmet.

4 hours ago, Andy73 said:

The Jennings family happy at the carnival

It's as obvous as the deer family in the road, but I love when Paige turns around with her face painted the same way Amelia's was.

[anonymiss]

I don't believe Paige stayed for Henry. Paige stayed for Paige. She's ultimately one of their 2 American kids, as Claudia put it, and was having fun trying on different identities as young adults do. She wanted to feel special and belong so she became a Bible thumper. Her convictions didn't last too long once indoctrinated by her mom and then she tried on Soviet Spy. Once shit got too real there, she split again and hopefully comes to terms with the fact she is just a typical Taylor Swift American girl. 

[Andy73]

On 10/10/2022 at 4:10 AM, sistermagpie said:

Thinking back one of the things that impresses me about the beginning of S6 is how clearly, in retrospect, the show was saying that hers wasn't a spy story. Viewers kept looking for one in it, but from beginning it's really not. 

On 10/9/2022 at 7:44 PM, Andy73 said:

I agree! And I think to her line to Elizabeth: I'm not afraid of dying; I'm afraid of being alone.

She is looking for connection, she dives into his mother's club for that, imho.

On 10/10/2022 at 4:10 AM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, once they make the decision to try marriage again, they never really let that come between them. They argue about the job seriously, but the don't ultimately betray each other for it, even if it seems like it could come to that.

We know they weren’t in love, but I always thought that there was more than one business relationship between them. We never saw the normal family dynamic; we saw them in a particular moment: Elizabeth was heavily under stress because of Timoshev.

I don't see Philip trying with her already knowing that she doesn't want it. I mean: I can't imagine Philip claiming alleged marital rights... I don't know if I was clear

On 10/10/2022 at 4:10 AM, sistermagpie said:

I love how Leanne seems to know about their marriage troubles. Could be that Claudia passed along some gossip, but I feel like Leanne has known Elizabeth wasn't really into marriage for years

I like to think they were friends... as well as colleagues. And I can’t imagine Claudia makes gossip… 😀

On 10/10/2022 at 4:10 AM, sistermagpie said:

I love when Paige turns around with her face painted

Ohh, I love it too!!! I should add it to my favorite ep’s scenes.

On 10/10/2022 at 7:09 AM, anonymiss said:

don't believe Paige stayed for Henry. Paige stayed for Paige. She's ultimately one of their 2 American kids, as Claudia put it, and was having fun trying on different identities as young adults do. She wanted to feel special and belong so she became a Bible thumper. Her convictions didn't last too long once indoctrinated by her mom and then she tried on Soviet Spy. Once shit got too real there, she split again and hopefully comes to terms with the fact she is just a typical Taylor Swift American girl

May be you are right. But also I like think that one’s of many reasons to get off the train was for Henry. 
And I add because she felt herself definitely disconnected from her parents... she saw her future in Russia.

I think about what they said to themselves at her home before leaving: she was definitely on other page…

Edited October 11, 2022 by Andy73

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Andy73 said:

We know they weren’t in love, but I always thought that there was more than one business relationship between them. We never saw the normal family dynamic; we saw them in a particular moment: Elizabeth was heavily under stress because of Timoshev.

Oh yeah, I don't think Elizabeth fell in love with him all at once in the pilot. They'd been married--if not iin love--for a long time, just in terms of raising a family and running a home and business together. Plus they had to trust each other in the field. But given Elizabeth's ideas about loyalty and the fact she had reported on Philip in the past, and William's story, we know that things don't have to work out that way.

14 hours ago, Andy73 said:

I don't see Philip trying with her already knowing that she doesn't want it. I mean: I can't imagine Philip claiming alleged marital rights... I don't know if I was clear

Yeah, I feel like that scene's an example of them not quite working things out before the pilot. Because even when Elizabeth is in a good place and they're in love, he never pushes stuff like that if she's not in the mood. 

14 hours ago, Andy73 said:

May be you are right. But also I like think that one’s of many reasons to get off the train was for Henry. 
And I add because she felt herself definitely disconnected from her parents... she saw her future in Russia.

On 10/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, anonymiss said:

I don't believe Paige stayed for Henry. Paige stayed for Paige. She's ultimately one of their 2 American kids, as Claudia put it, and was having fun trying on different identities as young adults do. She wanted to feel special and belong so she became a Bible thumper. Her convictions didn't last too long once indoctrinated by her mom and then she tried on Soviet Spy. Once shit got too real there, she split again and hopefully comes to terms with the fact she is just a typical Taylor Swift American girl. 

One of the things I've enjoyed so much in rewatching is how consistently we're sort of told that Paige is the type of person who does not see living in another country as something she would do. It's little things, but there's so many of them. She doesn't hate other countries or anything, but it's a place where foreign people live. So there's so much foreshadowing that ultimately she's going to break with her parents not by running away, but just by staying behind.

Which is funny when you think that Henry was more like his parents and left. There was a lot of talk at the time about Paige staying to not leave him alone or to take care of him, but it seems more complicated to me since he's so independent anyway. I think she can't help but think of how terrible it would be to be the *only* person left behind, but I sometimes feel like some of her focus on Henry was Paige seeing him more as an option than a problem. I mean, she obviously has no desire to actually go to Russia so it's not like she's conflicted in that way. Like it's better to say she has to stay to take care of Henry, who she's not going to be taking care of, than that of course she doesn't want to go to some other country. So it's not like she gets off the train and tries to get to Henry's school--which was closer to where she got off than that safe house.

[Andy73]

I'm still alive.... But right now I don't have time to watch more episodes...😢

[greekmom]

Americans is one of those shows that left so many unanswered questions that a 5 or 6 episode sequel about where are they now is in order.

What happened to Henry and Paige?

What about Stan? Was his new wife also a spy?

How did Philip and Elizabeth do in Russia? After the fall, were they able to see Paige and Henry again?

Did Philip see his son finally??  

What about Martha? Was she able to go back to the States eventually? Or did she finally integrate into Russian society or leave for another country in Europe?

Soooo many unanswered questions!!!!

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Pests. This season has such a different vibe to it, even on rewatch. All the characters are heading towards a decision where they cut off a part of themselves to get rid of a problem and then finding out they can’t really do that. So I’m trying to look at close at how they get to that place.

OLEG

Oleg’s story is the most straightforward so far. He’s starting his new job investigating corruption in food distribution, which of course mirrors the frankly silly plot that the agents in the US think is happening. He also gets his first threat that his actions with Stan might get him into trouble and he doesn’t want to worry his poor Mom about it. So – secrets in the Burov household!

HENRY

We get another hint here about Henry. When Paige tells Elizabeth he said he was going to the library they *both* assume he’s lying about it because this is a change in personality. 

TUAN

Tuan lived with a family in the US for 5 years before now, and since the showrunners claim he’s supposed to be like Directorate S, it seems like he’d have been trained before coming over—iow, he wasn’t just an angry immigrant teenager who got recruited recently. So, he’s got to be pretty far into his 20s at least at this point, maybe already late teens-20 pretending to be younger when he showed up. But still conflicted—his family was nice to him, but felt too obviously good about it. He seems to be constantly looking to judge people every which way at once, always looking for reasons to not care about others so he can hurt them and feel justified. Perhaps Pasha’s line about it being better to die at home than live here eventually leads Tuan to his idea of suicide for Pasha.

RENEE

We’re never going to find out for sure if Renee was a spy or not, but Stan’s already noticed that she has an odd reaction specifically to his being in the FBI. (He’s also noticed something up with Paige and he’s right on that one.) Stan joined the FBI in the late 60s so he was always a square, but it’s funny that he still thinks everyone stopped thinking the FBI could be cool post-Dillinger.

You can see Philip’s suspicion of her right away on rewatch. They make a point of cutting to his reactions to her – after Stan talked about how easy his date with her was, and how she’s like a female version of Philip. Also, that’s quite an outfit on Renee. The legwarmers for aerobics class! So if she is a spy, she's too obvious, and if she's not...she's something wierder.

STAN

Stan continues to be a total goofball with his feelings now that he has some. He tells Philip that if he saw Renee, he’d understand why Stan was shy about approaching her but…Stan’s been with knockouts his whole time on the show. He’s already told Renee he’s in the FBI while having no idea what she even does. He really is a potential Martha.

It also takes him a while to understand that the CIA’s feelings about Oleg didn’t change when Stan’s did and they might even use the tape he made to blackmail Oleg to…blackmail Oleg. In fact, at first, when the CIA sets up a meeting, he thinks they’ve called him in to reassure him that Oleg’s okay because they don’t want him to worry. He even tells them they should be going after Gaad’s killers instead, then thinks his boss is going to want to come with him to put a stop to their work.

Stan also suggests it would be a good thing for Matthew to stay closer to home for college because of his high school girlfriend. (Btw, he says Matthew’s considering Perdue, which is the second time that school’s come up on the show—just behind GW.)

Matthew’s age seems weird, btw. Stan says he’s looking at colleges, but it seems like he should be in college by now. In the pilot I thought he was 16, 3 years older than Paige, who’s 16 now herself and a junior. Even if it’s two years, he should be in college already. But then, the timeline of this whole season is wonky.

Stan’s also told Adderholt all about Renee (and Oleg), and is getting tips from him about where to take her next. Of course, by the end of the show there’s going to be a big secret separating them.

Stan’s house still looks like he’s in the middle of moving in or out. It’s a really nice touch how empty and hollow it always looks.

ELIZABETH

Elizabeth is the person who’s taking Hans’ death the hardest here, but it doesn’t make her want to keep Paige out of the business. (Neither did losing Gregory or Lucia…)

In fact, Elizabeth seems to be more influenced by Tuan. She has a funny moment when Alexei apologizes (with the Russian hand-over-heart gesture) for his family speaking Russian she smiles and says, “We understand.” Hah! Double meaning. Anyway, she listens to Tuan complaining about how weak Pasha is with all his food and nice clothes, and then comes home and announces she’s sick of treating Paige like a kid. She's like dammit, my kid's a Pasha!

This leads to her and Philip teaching Paige to rub her fingers together to remind herself who she is and where she comes from—but of course since it’s Elizabeth it means she needs Paige to remember who Elizabeth is and where she comes from, because Paige is from Falls Church. I remember at the time someone asked the showrunners something about this technique, maybe on the podcast? And they said they couldn’t answer because it would be a spoiler and that made me think it was building up to something important but it turned out to be nothing. At least it seemed like nothing at the time – I’ll see if I see something more now.

It can’t not be funny when Paige is doing the technique and Elizabeth smiling and saying she’s doing it well, as if she's really good at rubbing two fingers together.

She and Paige have another self-defense lesson where Elizabeth tries to warn her off Matthew. Paige winds up saying she just can’t date anyone (and she does have a point!) and starts to leave, but Elizabeth calls her back and gets her to continue the self-defense. Seems significant in retrospect because even if she fails to make a dent on the Matthew front, Elizabeth’s real priority is nudging her towards her own interests even though she doesn’t trust Paige at this point not to slip up.

All the talk about sex for Paige here is laying the groundwork for the honey-trapping revelation that Paige tries really hard to be in denial of despite all the clues. Her parents are flat-out telling her how sex makes people vulnerable to manipulation and truth-telling. I think she is meant to be a little shocked at how casual they are about the idea of her having sex, maybe particularly her dad, but that’s also a clue for her. They're barely hiding that they have special professional knowledge in this area.

PHILIP

Many thought Philip and Elizabeth were too stupid to believe the Centre’s ideas about poisoned wheat, but agents are trained to focus on doing the job they have to do, not thinking through the bigger picture. Elizabeth never does this even when faced with evidence they’re wrong and in this case I think Philip’s meant to have an emotional reaction to the idea of starvation that also keeps him focused. He rarely brings up memories of Russia, but hunger made him talk about his mother's soup.

What I hadn’t noticed before is that Alexei brings up his father’s imprisonment at Bennigan's (LOL--that is, they're at Bennigan's when he brings it up, he wasn't imprisoned at Bennigan's)—15 years for no crime at all in the Soviet system. I think this might be what’s meant to get Philip thinking about his father’s job because although he never talks about the prison openly and claims to not know what his father did, he knew he was living in its shadow and probably knew more than he admits to now. No one’s ever brought up the camps on the show before much, so he’s been able to avoid the subject.

Paige’s earlier question about what his dad did for work now seems specifically chosen. Philip told her then that he was a logger, but hesitated when telling her about what happened “when he got home.” It seemed like he was covering up some physical or emotional state of his father, but it may have sparked this same memory of bringing stuff home from the prison.

Philip, of course, immediately responds to Matthew’s choices of college by noting that they’re all very far away, which he doesn’t like. Get used to it, Philip.

When discussing Alexei, Philip casually suggests they just kill the guy, so at this point he’s still stone cold about murder.

PAIGE

At the start of the ep, Philip and Elizabeth find Paige sleeping in the closet. I remember on first watch I thought that if I was anxious enough to be sleeping in the closet, I’d freak out if I woke up and people were in my room. But I think her anxiety comes from their not being home. It’s probably also why she’s still up when they come home at the end. It’s a big reason, imo, why she wants to work with Elizabeth. It’s not because she likes the work at all, but because if she’s there with Elizabeth, she’s not having to worry about if she’s coming home or what’s happening. It’s like wanting them to all be together if there’s a nuclear war.

In between those scenes she argues with Elizabeth about wanting to see Matthew, who she says she really likes (though it doesn’t really seem like she does that much, like in the sense of a teenaged girl and her boyfriend), is warned by Elizabeth about sex being dangerous, then lets Matthew feel her up before agreeing to learn the finger-rub technique.

Her scene with Matthew includes some important lines in retrospect. Matthew asks why she’s staring into space and she first says nothing’s wrong, then says she's in a fight with her Mom. She says everything—her whole existence—always has to be Elizabeth’s way, and that in a few years she won’t even be living there and needs to be able to make her own decisions. Then she goes further with him physically than she has before, directly against Elizabeth’s warnings. 

So this is what Paige, as her real self, is fighting with Elizabeth over, and she's going to give up all of them by next season. By working with Elizabeth, she gives her mother control over her whole life and while technically she lives in a dorm and an off-campus apartment, she pretty much stays home for college, living close enough to drop by several times a day. It may have been at her parents’ insistence that she even moved out at all, for appearances’ sake. So those specific lines are important in retrospect—also I wonder if Paige saying she knows Elizabeth wants what’s best for her is an intentional callback to Philip’s original warnings when the recruitment process started on Elizabeth’s side to not let someone else tell her how to live her life even if they wanted what’s best for her.

Going away to school has always been presented as an off-ramp to freedom on the show. Paige talks about it as such back in S2, and Philip in S3. Here we have Matthew talking about going away for school. Paige herself brought up moving out just in the last episode. Paige choosing to stay home is her closing that door on herself even when she could get out. (Henry, of course, escapes early.)

So the scene with Matthew is important, but it also, imo, shows what we miss when we don’t have actors who can lead us clearly through what’s going on. Someone back in the day on here said watching scenes with these two always made them feel like they were suddenly watching a high school play, and it really does seem to grind the show to a halt to tell us that life is hard and puzzling for Paige in ways we already knew.

Watching it now, I kept thinking how if this were a Kimmy scene, we’d be able to see Kimmy choosing and taking action. Like, when Matthew asks if something’s wrong and Paige says no, then tells him about the fight. If this were Kimmy, I think we’d see her say nothing’s wrong automatically because she’s not supposed to talk about home, then think “fuck her—he’s my boyfriend and I’m going to talk to him.” 

The stuff about things having to be Elizabeth’s way is the same fight she and Paige have been having since the pilot. The latest version happened hours earlier and Paige was just stewing about it. Yet she doesn’t sound like an angry teenager venting (and many have vented about this same thing in less unusual circumstances) about something she’s been angry about for a while. She just sounds burdened and puzzled again.

Even her line about going away to college is just a statement of fact that doesn’t give me any sense about how she feels about that. When I was a teenager, I barely thought about going to college until I was going but I wasn’t in Paige’s situation. Is Paige thinking about it now with relief? Fear? Defiance? It sounds like she’s just acknowledging that part to get to the part of the dialogue where she can puzzle her way to the idea that she needs to make her own decisions.

And when Matthew points out that she does make her own decisions, she gives one of her intensely blank/fleeting smile faces and deep breaths before we cut to her closing the book and initiating a make-out session but I don’t feel something specifically happening. Like Paige thinking, “Yeah, I *do* make my own decisions so I’m going to do just what my mom doesn’t want!” It just seems like she’s passively troubled until she’s happy because, as an actress, she’s far more comfortable doing regular teen talk than Serious Complex Acting Scene.

It's just another time where looking back I can see where this is supposed to be a forward-moving story with an active character, and it just feels like deadweight. Also, it doesn’t help that neither of them is written to have any interests besides talking about Paige’s problems with occasional mentions of Matthew’s parents as Paige’s way of getting back to her own problems. I know we’re only supposed to hear conversations that relate to the plot, but it’s hard to believe they ever really talk about anything else. Next season KS does a good job, imo, of always making Henry's off-screen world seem real. Paige seems to sit in the prop closet when not onscreen.

Edited November 30, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Next season KS does a good job, imo, of always making Henry's off-screen world seem real. Paige seems to sit in the prop closet when not onscreen.

Yes this is something I really picked up on in my summer rewatch. I know I've seen people complain about him not being a particularly good actor--not so much here as other discussion sites--but I never had that impression of him at all. I found him quite believable as Henry and truthfully was always delighted when Henry popped up. He was very believable to me as a bright kid who wasn't quite a slacker but very much marched to the beat of his own quirky drum and mystified the rest of the family. I thought the scene in season 6 when he reveals to Stan that he has actually felt alienated from the family was quite poignant.

I just never had that reaction to a Paige scene. I can better appreciate the writing for the character, but I don't think she had the acting chops to handle more subtle character work. Basically she moves her eyebrows and looks worried. She's not awful, but I think she was definitely outacted by pretty much the entire rest of the cast.