S05.E12: Memorabilia

[adora721]

2 minutes ago, CloudySky said:

Build a robot to fight him?

They should have reprogrammed the ARGUS robot, A.M.A.Z.O., to fight Cicada, but that's not possible now.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, CloudySky said:

Oh right, I vaguely remember that now. Now that he only dampens metapowers, there are so many options...Why not freeze him with a cold gun? Build a robot to fight him? Breach him straight into a cell using the breach device instead of Cisco's powers? Pin him down with arrows from a distance? Run him over with a tank? And this is just off the top of my head without thinking about it too much. I don't remember exactly what his power level is, but I don't think he's super strong? His main power is in the dagger and dampening powers, right? There've been so many powerful villains, it's kind of ridiculous that this is The Unbeatable One.

Yep, there are lots of ways to kill Cicada on the show. I am putting the rest of my reply in spoiler tags

Spoiler

The problem is that they weakened Cicada for the show. In the comics, he is truly a formidable villain. Cicada's power is that he can absorb the life force of others which gives him super healing and long life, much like Barry. He also has a cult of followers who he orders to kill anyone that the Flash has saved. He is eventually stopped, but he escapes and is no longer an active villain. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[kirinan]

I have had more than enough of Nora. I dislike her and her childish, impetuous, stupid ways so much that in this episode I was actively rooting for Cicada to get her. I've stuck by this show through thick and thin, through Snart (who I loved) and DeVoe (who I HATED), but Nora has broken me. I just want her to go back to where she came from and never darken the door of the current Star Labs again.

[Brinny]

I thought this was a decent episode. 

The Flash Museum was cool. 

I don't know why, but I thought it was interesting that young Nora didn't know that Barry was the Flash. She says she went there to be close to him because he also liked the Flash and that the museum reminded Iris of him, right? I mean, she obviously finds out that her dad is the Flash, but I guess I just thought that was something they would have told her? Did Iris (or Joe, to a lesser degree) tell Nora anything in the future? She doesn't know Barry is the Flash and that's why he disappears, she doesn't know that Barry's mom was murdered by Thawne, she doesn't know she's a speedster. Screw what Barry told you, Iris. You are a bad mom! (I'm kidding. I don't think Iris is a bad mom. I do think she made some...questionable choices, though.)

Still hate Sherloque. Will always hate Sherloque. (But love Tom Cavanaugh! And good on him for perpetuating the myth that all Canadians are amazing skaters.)

I also hate this Cicada storyline. Honestly, except Reverse Flash, I really don't think the show has done a decent job sustaining interest with a big bad. I mean, MAYBE Zoom. I think they do better with their cheesy rogue gallery villains and one-offs. So, hopefully they cure Cicada, or whatever dumb plan they came up with this week, and we never have to hear about him ever again. Until Grace inherits the mantle, I guess. 

 

21 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I noticed that. It was pretty weird. I wonder if it is how the scenes are being directed, but still Grant and Candice should know by now how to sell Barry and Iris' relationship.

I would assume that's how the scenes are being written/directed. I don't disagree that GG and CP definitely put in their own little touches here and there (sometimes literally) to add dimension to the Barry and Iris relationship, but I'd also have to imagine that always going in for an unscripted kiss or being overly touchy-feely in scenes that don't specifically call for it would be some degree of awkward, no? When it comes down to it, they're still just co-workers doing a job.

 

7 hours ago, CloudySky said:

The Flash bobblehead reminded me of the flash Honest Trailer lol. Made me laugh.

I think Grant is a good actor, but cannot unsee. (That Honest Trailer was legit me when I got into Flash. "Wait! Am I a Flash fan now?!")

[shantown]

1 hour ago, kirinan said:

I have had more than enough of Nora. I dislike her and her childish, impetuous, stupid ways so much that in this episode I was actively rooting for Cicada to get her. I've stuck by this show through thick and thin, through Snart (who I loved) and DeVoe (who I HATED), but Nora has broken me. I just want her to go back to where she came from and never darken the door of the current Star Labs again.

I feel the exact same way, which is funny because I was SO excited at the crossover last year when she showed up and what it might mean! And JPK looks like she could be a West-Allen child, and got both CP and GG's mannerisms down so well. Just stinks they stuck her this time travel plot AND with two different Wells.

 

43 minutes ago, Brinny said:

I also hate this Cicada storyline. Honestly, except Reverse Flash, I really don't think the show has done a decent job sustaining interest with a big bad. I mean, MAYBE Zoom. I think they do better with their cheesy rogue gallery villains and one-offs. So, hopefully they cure Cicada, or whatever dumb plan they came up with this week, and we never have to hear about him ever again. Until Grace inherits the mantle, I guess.

For me, Reverse Flash worked because he wasn't really the Big Bad of the season until it was revealed that S1 Wells wasn't really Wells. In actuality, I think they had the benefit of that being the first season and they could spend quite a few episodes introducing characters, abilities, the premise of the story, etc. 

[Trini]

6 hours ago, CloudySky said:

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

They did talk about this at the beginning of the season - apparently in the original timeline Supergirl (among others) tried and failed because Cicada was supposed to be able to neutralize her powers.  However, they then decided that only dark matter based powers were affected (hence KF being able to do things) even though that now means Kara should be able to toss Cicada into a cell in about 2 seconds.

I thought that narrator sounded familiar.  I wouldn't mind seeing him show up at some point.  Tuvok showed up on Supergirl last season so he wouldn't be the first one from the Trek to come over.

Oh right, I vaguely remember that now. Now that he only dampens metapowers, there are so many options...Why not freeze him with a cold gun? Build a robot to fight him? Breach him straight into a cell using the breach device instead of Cisco's powers? Pin him down with arrows from a distance? Run him over with a tank? And this is just off the top of my head without thinking about it too much. I don't remember exactly what his power level is, but I don't think he's super strong? His main power is in the dagger and dampening powers, right? There've been so many powerful villains, it's kind of ridiculous that this is The Unbeatable One.

I don't know why the writers set themselves up to fail with that line about 'even Supergirl could beat him'. They have not shown him to that powerful AT ALL. (No, not even pulling the dagger back from space.) They really need to have him level up.

 

45 minutes ago, Brinny said:

I don't know why, but I thought it was interesting that young Nora didn't know that Barry was the Flash. She says she went there to be close to him because he also liked the Flash and that the museum reminded Iris of him, right? I mean, she obviously finds out that her dad is the Flash, but I guess I just thought that was something they would have told her? Did Iris (or Joe, to a lesser degree) tell Nora anything in the future? She doesn't know Barry is the Flash and that's why he disappears, she doesn't know that Barry's mom was murdered by Thawne, she doesn't know she's a speedster.

I have the same question, (and not just Iris or Joe, but also Wally, Cecile, Cisco, Ralph, Caitlin, etc. who all know Barry Allen AND the Flash) and I'm losing hope that the show will answer it. I find it really hard to believe everyone refused to tell her anything, even after she became an adult. (Which is another problem with Nora being in her mid-twenties.)

 

1 hour ago, kirinan said:

I have had more than enough of Nora. I dislike her and her childish, impetuous, stupid ways so much that in this episode I was actively rooting for Cicada to get her. I've stuck by this show through thick and thin, through Snart (who I loved) and DeVoe (who I HATED), but Nora has broken me. I just want her to go back to where she came from and never darken the door of the current Star Labs again.

I'm not burned out on Nora yet, and I do like the family dynamic. But if it makes you feel better, I think she's on the fast track to erasing herself from existence, so you might get your wish!

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

I don't think Iris is a bad mom. I do think she made some...questionable choices, though.

I'm glad you can see beyond this really bad flaw that Iris is still a good mom. And yet I've heard some complaining  (not on this forum) that Iris is shown as too perfect and that's why she's hated. Um... no! Some are angry Iris wasn't abusive as they'd imagined! 

There seems to be a repetition of errors from generation to generation. Joe lied to Iris for decades about Francine's (Iris' mom) "death" to protect her.  Wish Joe was back to tell Nora about his devastating lie about Francine to give Nora even more perspective. Iris lies to Nora about her father to protect her. These are flawed people who love their kids. 

Additionally, Nora is repeating all of Barry's mistakes with the timeline trying to save her missing parent.

40 minutes ago, Trini said:

I have the same question, (and not just Iris or Joe, but also Wally, Cecile, Cisco, Ralph, Caitlin, etc. who all know Barry Allen AND the Flash) and I'm losing hope that the show will answer it. I find it really hard to believe everyone refused to tell her anything, even after she became an adult. (Which is another problem with Nora being in her mid-twenties.)

This also begs the question of who on Team Flash is actually still in Nora and Iris' life in the future. We know Papa Joe and Cecile, Jenna, Wally are in Nora's life. Iris' family would respect her wish to keep quiet about Barry as the Flash. However, I'm still not convinced that Cisco, Ralph, or Caitlin are in Nora's life in the future. I'm sure she's heard about them and read about them, but I don't get the sense that she grew up knowing them. And it's still unclear if it's ARGUS, Cisco/Caitlin, or some other person who invented the dampening chip implanted in Nora.

Edited January 31, 2019 by adora721

[Brinny]

38 minutes ago, Trini said:

I have the same question, (and not just Iris or Joe, but also Wally, Cecile, Cisco, Ralph, Caitlin, etc. who all know Barry Allen AND the Flash) and I'm losing hope that the show will answer it. I find it really hard to believe everyone refused to tell her anything, even after she became an adult. (Which is another problem with Nora being in her mid-twenties.)

I mean, at this point, I'm like, "I get it. I get why she teams up with Thawne." Seriously, this kid knows nothing about dad's life. Her dad, who's missing and not a part of her life, and no one can even tell her the truth about him. Barry's told literally everybody else his secret identity, you'd think someone could clue his kid in about why her dad abandoned her. I say all of this partially in jest, however, if someone, anyone, had sat Nora down and told her the truth, she wouldn't have had to hunt it down. Of course, this is all probably going to lead to them finally defeating Cicada and either a) speeding up the crisis timeline; b) figuring out a way to get Barry back after he vanishes; c) some combination of the two. (Or, I guess, d) none of the above, because Brinny cannot predict the future.)

@adora721 I feel like anyone who legit thinks that future Iris is a bad mother must have, like, the PERFECT relationship with their own parents. Parent/child relationships are so complex and complicated and so much of what we do (or don't do) for our parents or children usually just comes from a place of love. Also, parents are human. They make mistakes. And Iris in this timeline is suddenly a single mom, who lost her best friend/husband and has to navigate parenting all by herself. She's bound to falter a bit. And she's also Iris, wonderful human being, so she's also bound to be a loving and caring mother at the same time. 

@shantown You're probably right about the Reverse Flash. I haven't re-watched the first season and I was thinking that he was revealed to be Thawne sooner. Or maybe it was just telegraphed really well? I just know that DeVoe was boring and Savitar might have been interesting if it wasn't so predictable that he was actually Barry (or if that stupid timeloop/paradox crap actually made sense). 

[SimoneS]

59 minutes ago, Brinny said:

I mean, at this point, I'm like, "I get it. I get why she teams up with Thawne." Seriously, this kid knows nothing about dad's life. Her dad, who's missing and not a part of her life, and no one can even tell her the truth about him. Barry's told literally everybody else his secret identity, you'd think someone could clue his kid in about why her dad abandoned her. I say all of this partially in jest, however, if someone, anyone, had sat Nora down and told her the truth, she wouldn't have had to hunt it down. Of course, this is all probably going to lead to them finally defeating Cicada and either a) speeding up the crisis timeline; b) figuring out a way to get Barry back after he vanishes; c) some combination of the two. (Or, I guess, d) none of the above, because Brinny cannot predict the future.)

Both of the articles that Iris wrote state that The Flash disappeared in a fight with the Reverse Flash. Does Nora think that they were playing tag? Seriously, how old is she? Even a child like Grace understands who hurt her family even if she is lashing out in vengeance. Nora is an idiot to think that her father's most vicious and insane enemy would help her do anything other than hurt him and to actually use him as a defense mechanism in her subconscious. Oy. 

I am sure that we will eventually figure out why Nora thinks stopping Cicada will somehow help Barry, but as of right now, the only main thing I see happening is that thanks to Nora's actions, Barry and Iris will be getting a do over at having children.

Edited January 31, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

Caitlin's skating outfit was a reference to the Bombshells version of Killer Frost:

 

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, Trini said:

I have the same question, (and not just Iris or Joe, but also Wally, Cecile, Cisco, Ralph, Caitlin, etc. who all know Barry Allen AND the Flash) and I'm losing hope that the show will answer it. I find it really hard to believe everyone refused to tell her anything, even after she became an adult. (Which is another problem with Nora being in her mid-twenties.)

 

12 hours ago, adora721 said:

There seems to be a repetition of errors from generation to generation. Joe lied to Iris for decades about Francine's (Iris' mom) "death" to protect her.  Wish Joe was back to tell Nora about his devastating lie about Francine to give Nora even more perspective. Iris lies to Nora about her father to protect her. These are flawed people who love their kids. 

Additionally, Nora is repeating all of Barry's mistakes with the timeline trying to save her missing parent.

This also begs the question of who on Team Flash is actually still in Nora and Iris' life in the future. We know Papa Joe and Cecile, Jenna, Wally are in Nora's life. Iris' family would respect her wish to keep quiet about Barry as the Flash. However, I'm still not convinced that Cisco, Ralph, or Caitlin are in Nora's life in the future. I'm sure she's heard about them and read about them, but I don't get the sense that she grew up knowing them. And it's still unclear if it's ARGUS, Cisco/Caitlin, or some other person who invented the dampening chip implanted in Nora.

 

I have real problems with this story because of these really good points.  I caught the original Charmed series and it occurred to me that Barry and Iris would face the same problems with a young Nora with speed powers that Leo and Piper had with a magical Wyatt. Barry and Iris couldn't have sent Nora to nursery and then elementary school, etc. without coming up with a way to control her powers. So is very possible that the decision to put in the dampening chip in an infant Nora was made by both Barry and Iris' before he disappeared. 

Not telling Nora the truth about Barry when she was adult is another story and I agree that it was probably influenced by the lies that the West-Allens tell each other to "protect" each other.  I expect that we will learn why Iris made the decision to keep Nora in the dark, but I have to say that I will never believe that keeping this secret was a good thing. But once Nora found out the truth from Thawne or whoever, why didn't she go to her family or even check out the Internet? Her decision to change the past is very Barry though. She could have approached Wally who refused so maybe it is simple as Thawne was the person with the experience with speed and time travel willing to help her alter the timeline. However, why she trusts him and thinks that he would defend her is inexplicable, IMO.

Edited January 31, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I caught the original Charmed series and it occurred to me that Barry and Iris would face the same problems with a young Nora with speed powers that Leo and Piper had with a magical Wyatt. Barry and Iris couldn't have sent Nora to nursery and then elementary school, etc. without coming up with a way to control her powers. So is very possible that the decision to put in the dampening chip in an infant Nora was made by both Barry and Iris' before he disappeared. 

 I agree, especially after seeing a clip from "Young Justice" with Iris trying and failing to catch up with speedster toddlers:

[BeautifulFlower]

Hold on, do we know that Nora found out about Barry being The flash from Thawne? All I remember is that she found out from someone that she had powers. 

In that memory, Nora is a child. I wouldn't tell someone her age that her father is a superhero. No offense, children wouldn't have been able to keep that a secret. They could easily tell other kids "Guess what? My daddy is the Flash". We don't have the whole picture of what the future is like. 

Spoiler

Todd said we would. At least we would find out why Nora was chipped. He said it has something to do with Thawne.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

We don't have the whole picture of what the future is like. 

They need to hurry up and show us this picture, because it's a key component to understanding Nora's (who is a central figure this season) actions and motivations. They've done a little bit with dialogue and the memory scenes, but we're already halfway through the season, and they need to not wait until the last minute like with Savitar.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Trini

[Mellowyellow]

23 hours ago, kirinan said:

I have had more than enough of Nora. I dislike her and her childish, impetuous, stupid ways so much that in this episode I was actively rooting for Cicada to get her. I've stuck by this show through thick and thin, through Snart (who I loved) and DeVoe (who I HATED), but Nora has broken me. I just want her to go back to where she came from and never darken the door of the current Star Labs again.

I watched and enjoyed this show for 4 seasons until Nora broke me this season and I quit. 

Came to peek and see if she's still the main focus which she seems to be so I'll be back when she's gone!

Funny because Flash had one of the more likeable support casts (yes I even truly liked Ralph) and then they introduced the twit that is Nora.

[Trini]

On 1/30/2019 at 4:17 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Seeing The Flash Museum was fun.  And I pretty sure Robert Picardo was one of the voices narrating stuff, which is cool.

Yep, Robert Picardo was the voice of 'Dexter Myles' at the Flash Museum. It would be cool if he actually showed up in a later episode, but so far when they've had genre stars do voices that is all that they do.

[adora721]

Another LWG answer that makes sense about why Iris would chip Nora and keep her powers a secret her entire life:

"Learning that Cicada came back to power around 2024 from the flash museum, it makes sense why Iris would suppress her daughter’s powers. She didn’t want her to be found and killed. That’s reason enough. When you’re a kid, parents make plenty of decisions without asking because we’re too young to understand. Also, if Nora even knew her dad was the flash, she would probably strive to be the same and that would put her in danger. So I get the reasons behind the actions. Could Iris have told Nora about it? Yes, but there’s still so much we don’t know and Todd said we’d be seeing future Iris more than once. I think there’s still more to the mystery because we’ve only just scratched the surface of Nora and her relationship with Thawne and how he played a role in all of this. Did he tell Nora about the chip? He must have. And if Nora’s memories were that clouded in anger, maybe other memories were too?"

[Cthulhudrew]

I probably missed something, because I honestly haven't been paying that close attention to this boring season, but what good would it do to "cure"* Cicada? I thought his powers came from meta-tech in his dagger, and not any metahuman powers of his own? And even if he is a meta, it still won't fix the problem of the meta-tech dagger he uses? Can someone set me straight on this?

*Also, can we stop calling this a cure? Meta-mutation isn't a disease or virus or anything like that. There are plenty of people who have, use, and enjoy their meta-powers (whether for good or evil). I'm not sure calling this a cure helps with the public perception of metas which already seems to be very mixed.

[RedVitC]

Enjoyed this episode a lot. I love it when the show deals with the future directly like this. I really want an all future episode. Just show us what life is like, doesn't even have to be from the perspective of someone from our time, since Nora is from there it could be her thinking back or something.

Central City Citizen is here! Finally. I would have liked a little more build up since I think this is the first we heard that she wanted to expand her blog. An episode with her thinking about going back to work for a newspaper and then deciding she wanted to start her own newspaper instead would have helped. However, I'm glad we're here now. I'm glad she got her own set again (or a shared set with Ralph).

As I said after episode 1 I'm waiting for Barry and Iris to talk about Barry disappearing and how they're really feeling, but I did love how it was underneath a lot of their interactions this episode. 

I love Barry and Iris

I also love Nora. She's a little immature, sure, but I love the energy she brings. I didn't dislike S4 at all (I enjoyed it a lot), but I'm liking S5 a lot more and part of that is because of Nora and this whole future plot. I think Cicada isn't bad as a villain (even if I feel like with what he has shown he shouldn't be that hard to defeat). Pretty much every fight someone gets the upper hand at some point), but I find my attention is drawn to the plot about Nora being from the future and what she is doing here and adding Thawne to that just makes it that much more interesting. I just think the show is better when it isn't trying to be 'normal' and just embraces that part of the flash is the speed force and time travel and other earths and all those kinds of things. The entire story that we've seen, the world that we've seen for 4/5 seasons only exists because of (thawne's) time travel. 

 I also love all the family stuff. Barry and Iris as parents is something I knew I'd enjoy, and I do.

I'd love a spin off with all the arrowverse kids. Nora + a twin hopefully (speedster (twins)), William (hacker), a potential Oliver/Felicity daughter or son (archer? figthter?), Zoe, someone from Supergirl and someone from legends and right there you've got yourself a new team. Young Arrowverse! 

[TwistedandBored]

I liked this episode a lot more than last week's episode. Candice Patton should definitely win performance of the week for this episode. She really brought it.

The characterization of Nora is a hot mess. So, I wasn't the least surprised she misinterpreted her mother's concern and protectiveness as abusive. This is the same girl that is trusting RF. I understand her trusting Thawne before but after finding out how much he terrorised her family and killed her grandmother. Nope. Nora is just whatever the plot wants her to be which really sucks. 

Anyways, they hinted at this episode that Cicada from Nora's timeline might not the same one as this one. The Cicada from Grace's dream was definitely a blond woman. So, I am guessing Grace is probably gonna continue uncle's crusade. 

Also, the cure that came out of nowhere is gonna be used against Cicada. You don't say. 

[BeautifulFlower]

Seriously, do these writers communicate with each other. I don't get why Cisco looked surprised when Barry said he wanted to use the cure on Cicada. That was literally one of the reasons why he's creating the cure.

[Trini]

On 2/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, RedVitC said:

Enjoyed this episode a lot. I love it when the show deals with the future directly like this. I really want an all future episode. Just show us what life is like, doesn't even have to be from the perspective of someone from our time, since Nora is from there it could be her thinking back or something.

They need to do an all future episode! It would be a waste to spend all this time with this character from the future (Nora) and not show us the world where she comes from.

 

On 2/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, RedVitC said:

Central City Citizen is here! Finally. I would have liked a little more build up since I think this is the first we heard that she wanted to expand her blog.

Lack of build up is a trend for the writers; especially if it's not THE season arc.  ::shakes head::
 

On 2/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, RedVitC said:

I just think the show is better when it isn't trying to be 'normal' and just embraces that part of the flash is the speed force and time travel and other earths and all those kinds of things.

Yes, I think this show could be great if they lean in on the sci-fi aspects (and not just the pseudo-science techno-babble ).