Sara Lance: The Canary Rises In White

[Starfish35]

On 6/21/2021 at 2:01 PM, Starfish35 said:

I think in the world of DC’s Arrowverse, it’s been pretty clear that a person has a “soul” that is separate from simply their body and their memories.  Sara and Oliver had to have their souls reunited with their bodies after being resurrected in the Lazarus Pits.  The use of the “soul coins” last season was a plot point.   So I think it’s valid to ask whether or not this is the Original!Sara’s soul in the new clone body, or if it’s a new soul with a copy of Sara’s memories.  

Whether or not the show will address this is another question.  There was a time when I would have assumed they would, but I’ve lost quite a bit of faith in the writers over the last couple of seasons, especially with anything in regards to Sara.

There is still a part of me, however, that wonders whether they might eventually reveal that Original!Sara is actually still alive.  But I’m not holding my breath on that either.

Now that the season finale has aired, I’m bringing this over here to ask:  Did they ever address it again?  Or was it just all forgotten?  I’ve been scanning the episode threads, so I know there was some weird thing about Bishop having some of Sara’s DNA, but it doesn’t sound like they ever did anything further with the idea of whether this is OG Sara in a new body, or a new Sara altogether.  Apparently there was no shock revelation of OG Sara still being alive, though.

[Sakura12]

Why would they address it? Sara is not an important character. I haven't watched past the western ep are Sara's healing powers ever used again or talked about?

Or did they just kill off OG Sara for no reason other then to make her a clone like their precious Ava. With Sara still not allowed to have any thoughts about being an Alien clone, while making sure for the 100th time that Ava's okay with being a clone. 

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

Now that the season finale has aired, I’m bringing this over here to ask:  Did they ever address it again?  Or was it just all forgotten?  I’ve been scanning the episode threads, so I know there was some weird thing about Bishop having some of Sara’s DNA, but it doesn’t sound like they ever did anything further with the idea of whether this is OG Sara in a new body, or a new Sara altogether.  Apparently there was no shock revelation of OG Sara still being alive, though.

I think it’s supposed to be like the Cylons on Battlestar Galactica in that the soul can be transferred to another body and remain the same person. Like how (BSG spoiler)

Spoiler

Athena had Helo kill her so she could download onto the Basestar, find Hera, and bring her back.

It would have been more clear if they’d explained this when we visited the Ava period in season 3.

Now that the season’s over I think they went this way to make Sara invincible. The joke has been that she can’t stay dead and now it’s basically impossible to kill her.

[lurker22]

I'm not sure if Sara ever told the Legends she died, besides the fact that she's a clone, but she did say she was killed this episode, but like always, there was barely any reaction to it because they were all trying to survive.

I don't think we ever got the answer to Sara's soul, and I don't think we'll ever get it. I personally see this clone simply as a (mixed) copy of Sara, while OG Sara is dead. Bishop has 6% of Sara's DNA and apparently thinks like Sara and knows everything she knows. Are we going to say Bishop is Sara? Does he have part of Sara's soul too? Even the Sara clone is not purely Sara since part of her is an alien, and the alien has manifested itself through its taste of food.

Sara's new status as a clone is mostly played for laughs like her weird taste for food. Though Spooner was able to transfer Sara's regenerative powers to Behrad and Astra to save them from getting poisoned to death by the Zagarons like Sara did, so I guess that's cool.

[SaraLanceArrow]

I don't know if I am the only one, but for me Sara Lance was a clone with no soul from s4 onwards, or at least this is how the writers wrote her. I don't think these writers know their characters at all, or at least the OG characters. I presume the writing staff changed, because they like to write only about their new additions and the characters that are on the show from the start are pushed on the background and written over and over out of character.

But Sara gets the shortest stick. I laughed so hard when the writing room had to explain themselves to the twitter crowd that Sara actually would love to go on a boat trip for a vacation, because you see she died so many times and shipped wrecked so many times, so she shouldn't be bothered by boat trips, she actually would love it, goodness. It is obvious it is Caity Lotz who loves boats, but for Sara makes zero sense.

But this is another prove that this clone character obviously doesn't have the same soul. I mean just imagine what would the soul do or feel when they kill her over and over for laughs: what, she is just exiting the body and eats pop corns waiting for the body to regenerate after an explosion? I mean, do this writers even consider Sara as a human being?

They talk about her development, but she got development log time ago on Arrow, and then the same development in the first two seasons of Legends, and a little further more in the crossovers to finally join the group of the so called 'big' superheroes like Flash and Supergirl. But on Legends they treat her like a tool of the plots they want to tell. How is a character a good character or gets a development when every story she gets just steals from her rather than give her something.

And some people even compare Bishop story with Ivo story and say: Sara developed, so much! Really, why? Because she can fight now, and snap necks? Is this the development? The Ivo story made her Canary, she made her own proactive choices of darkness and survival, but then use her new toughness to help and save. She joined Ivo not because she was physically weak and in her underwear, she joined him because he promised her they will save the human race, and we can clearly see how Sara's face changes when he says this. She might have been stuck on a ship for a year, but they never suggested she was a victim, they actually said Ivo listened to her. In the end Sara played him and got away. (Of course we had degrading writing with the 'chose scene', where Oliver had to chose between her and Shado, but this is what happens when a show puts its males characters first. They obviously used Sara and Shado as a tool for Slade and Oliver.)

But Legends did the same with Bishop, and even more. Sara was nothing more than a tool for the plot in which she had to be killed and cloned, she was never given proactive choice, as she was killed and cloned off screen, regardless of her kicking ass and snapping necks, she achieved nothing, she even looked stupid at times with her failed attempts to escape. Then she was made just to accept this in one episode and move on. There was no character change, she did not learn anything new from this experience, it brought her no new horizons or new lessons. It just stole her unique human body with scars and gave her a body they can shoot on screen over and over.

If they wanted to show a real development and parallel these stories they should have shown a real parallel. Put Sara in a similar proactive situation where she has to chose to join Bishop and preserve her body, or save her soul and actually be a hero and save the Ava clones or other oppressed by him. But nothing of this happened. How are these people even writers, do they know the basic rules of writing a character and development and a parallel. For them Sara being snarky is the development, gosh. 

But in the end I am the fool, that allowed my self to waste energy and time on this show, but early Sara Lance was such an inspiration for me, that I just couldn't let go.

So yes, I would be happy if her story ends now, I really have no interest to watch her became even bigger caricature, so they can show us their white straight male vision of a lesbian mother who got pregnant from a saliva.

[Sakura12]

I don't think the writers were trying to compare ivo and bishop. They don't care at all about what Sara went through on Arrow. They only wanted to make Sara be exactly like their precious Ava. That was the entire point of the Bishop storyline. It had nothing to do with giving Sara any growth. She was a prop in that storyline like she has been since S3. 

People like to say Sara's growth is she's happy now. Is she though? We never get to see her thoughts or feelings. Everything is about making Ava happy. Sara is barely a character. That's not growth. 

[lurker22]

11 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

People like to say Sara's growth is she's happy now. Is she though? We never get to see her thoughts or feelings. Everything is about making Ava happy. Sara is barely a character. That's not growth. 

Sara's perpetually afraid of doing something wrong and disappointing Ava (she's said as much right before her proposal/abduction), and always apologizing to Ava whether it's her fault or not (usually not).

As much as the writers like to say Sara/Ava are equals in their relationship, they're not. Yes, they've taken everything that used to be Sara's (her captaincy, her status as the best fighter on the team (by having Ava fight her to a draw, the way their fights were choreographed, and nerfing Sara to the extent where she can't even fight off a bunch of villagers), her humanity (by killing and replacing her with a clone)), and gave them to Ava, but how can they be truly equals when Sara is always emotionally inferior to Ava and feels she's in the wrong all the time?

[SaraLanceArrow]

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't think the writers were trying to compare ivo and bishop. They don't care at all about what Sara went through on Arrow. They only wanted to make Sara be exactly like their precious Ava. That was the entire point of the Bishop storyline. It had nothing to do with giving Sara any growth. She was a prop in that storyline like she has been since S3. 

People like to say Sara's growth is she's happy now. Is she though? We never get to see her thoughts or feelings. Everything is about making Ava happy. Sara is barely a character. That's not growth. 

I agree: the writers didn't tried to compare Bishop and Ivo when they were writing the story. It was the fans who saw similarity between the description of the two mad scientists and thought there would be some parallel in the story, and then they just made their own head cannon that the parallel is the fact that Sara is bad ass now and she wasn't before. The writers of course took credit about it on twitter, even Keto wrote that she was part of the writing team that wrote the Ivo story and 'oh yes how developed is Sara now, she can fight'. That is what angered me. There was never parallel, and they never showed any development, and Sara was bad ass even on the island when she met Oliver.

Legends never really developed her. But that is the other point, that they believe that being happy is developed, and yes happiness is a state and you can achieve it but it is not a constant. Every season she is killed, tortured, she loses someone, but she shows no emotions about it, because she is happy? Not showing grief and pain isn't showing happiness and development, it is being a psychopath. Sara was already happy with the Legends even before she met Ava, but then the whole credit went to her. Sara was also happy on Arrow when she went home and made amends with her family, but then she got sad and so on. This is life you can't be happy all the time, sometimes you feel good sometimes - not. She wasn't all gloom and doom on Arrow, actually the gloom and doom part was only hyperbolized because they wanted to prop up Laurel, but in the end the way it turned out was that this gloom just showed how big hero Sara is, when she went in the burning building and saved a little girl from explosions and fire.

Legends never gave her such a scene. They even tried to pain her and the rest of the OGs in the 100th ep as some sort of brainless muscle who start a meaningless fight all the time, in order to show their development now compared to the bubbly goofy personas. And it was laughable. The only thing we saw was two groups of completely different characters hyperbolized to the superficial and leveled to one pronoun : goofy or angry. Obviously the whole idea to go to the parody genre and made the show meta and silly was driven by their lack of talent in characterization and writing believable adventure superhero stories.

Even more Sara's characterization was backwards. On Legends it feels like we got back the careless party persona of pre island Sara, who does what she wants and do not consider the consequences much. And this is much more visible with the progression of the seasons and the whole idea of 'we screw things for the better'. In s2 she became a captain because she cared for the timeline, she made the ultimate sacrifice with the spear of destiny to preserve the timeline, she made the tough choices to also break time, to prevent Doomsworld, but then in the Time Bureau era all the Legends suddenly became irresponsible chainsaws, the way Rip called them. In the end of s2 he told Sara she is the better captain, in the beginning of s3 he suddenly created time bureau because Sara and the legends weren't good enough. So it is obvious that Ava and the timebureau were the reason of this so called progression, they needed the legends to be painted in this color for the need of the bureau. In a way Ava never really made Sara a better person, she made her worse.

[shantown]

9 hours ago, SaraLanceArrow said:

Legends never really developed her.

9 hours ago, SaraLanceArrow said:

the whole idea to go to the parody genre and made the show meta and silly was driven by their lack of talent in characterization and writing believable adventure superhero stories.

There's the two reasons I stopped watching, and why I don't really care if the show is cancelled. Sara was a great anchor to the rest of the Arrowverse - I know they didn't care so much about that as they moved on in seasons, but I think they lost something when they completed disconnected from the other shows, the other characters the Legends knew, and from the Sara that had these unique experiences that made her a great leader and competent fighter and understanding person. There was a bit of fun in the irreverence of the show earlier on, and their unique takes on history. But I remember around early season 4 when it seemed like they were just playing Mad Libs with the episodes so see how much weird stuff they could cram in for the sake of being weird instead of for how it added to the larger story.  That's also around the time that Sara started devolving, IMO.

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, shantown said:

There's the two reasons I stopped watching, and why I don't really care if the show is cancelled. Sara was a great anchor to the rest of the Arrowverse - I know they didn't care so much about that as they moved on in seasons, but I think they lost something when they completed disconnected from the other shows, the other characters the Legends knew, and from the Sara that had these unique experiences that made her a great leader and competent fighter and understanding person. There was a bit of fun in the irreverence of the show earlier on, and their unique takes on history. But I remember around early season 4 when it seemed like they were just playing Mad Libs with the episodes so see how much weird stuff they could cram in for the sake of being weird instead of for how it added to the larger story.  That's also around the time that Sara started devolving, IMO.

Yes, that’s how I feel.  I loved the show, and I was a huge Sara Lance fan, but I finally had to quit watching because it had just become an exercise in frustration I didn’t need.  ☹️ I still miss what it was, but it hasn’t been that show for a few seasons now.  

[Sakura12]

I started watching Legends because of the character of Sara, I stopped when Sara's character disappeared.

[SaraLanceArrow]

I also stopped watching after season 6. I should have stopped earlier. And I am sure many fans stopped watching, not only because of Sara's degradation, but the whole show and all characters became frustrating. I am amazed how the critics and fans are praising it now, when it actually became poor parody and even more poor comedy. I can hardly laugh. All I can see is good actors wasted on material where they have to parody Jersey Shore and Real House Wives. I don't see the characters any more, I see the actors over acting and trying to hard.

Maybe this was one of the reason I never felt for Avalance, even though I am lesbian myself. It just does not feel and look real. They kiss and hug with these big gestures and grimaces that is obvious, it is acting.

And Caity is an amazing actress, she conveyed so much emotions on Arrow, she created this amazing human character that you can feel for. She took Sara's character from the dirt, where the writers had left her, with all this background of stealing her sister boyfriend, and then just being the dead obstacle of the main couple, and she made Sara a real person, likable, bad ass, nice, cute, soft, hurt, hard and so many things. She was just acting with her eyes.

And I am not saying Caity is not good at comedy, she is, she is amazing at comedy, but even she admitted that on Legends she is mostly playing a version of herself and not a character that is why she enjoyed playing The Machine. And yes Caity is amazing in her parodies of Star Treck, Bugsy, Westerns, 90's movies, Charlies Angels. but this also means she should have been given the chance to shine with her own character, who could have been iconic.

I read here a comment that the camera was never on her face in emotional moments in s5, and this is so true, this is exactly what I was thinking, but I noticed this back in s3 in her episode where she was possessed by Malus. They had the camera mostly on Nora, and the dialogue was given to Nora, while Sara hardly said anything, and then in the exorcism scene the camera was mostly on Constantine. Why? Caity is an amazing physical actress, she should have been able to put quite a performance ad someone who is exorcised by demons, she danced for Lady Gaga, which as a dance is not that different than being possessed ;), but they decided to cut the scene short make it as mundane as possible, very little physical movement, and all the acting was given to Matt Ryan.

And he is the only actor and character that this show allowed to have his own episodes, long arcs, elements from his own show, cgi scenes(and he had a lot from them, poor Nate who barely stealed, or Zari who barely used her powers), stories about gloom and doom. Why couldn't they gave one episode to Caity similar to the solo episode they gave Constantine in s6, where she goes on a quest alone, battles her past, and overall explores her Canary background?

[Sakura12]

Avalance is such a one sided toxic relationship. Sara had to give up anyone and everything she ever loved because Ava didn't like it. She has no family, no friends, she even lost any friends she had on the team. She can't have feelings or thoughts that Ava doesnt like. She can't react to her many traumas because she has to make sure Ava is okay with dealing the traumas that she went through.

I can't tell if Sara is happy since she's not allowed show any emotion. 

[Starfish35]

I watched the Season 6 premiere, but then just….never got around to watching anymore, and then after I heard about the clone thing, I didn’t really want to.  Season 5 really did a number on my love for the show, with all its focus on Ava.  By the end of that season, I couldn’t stand Ava, to say nothing of Avalance.   And it seemed like, except for here, that was all the fandom seemed to care about.  So I just had to distance myself from it.

Sara Lance, as she was on Arrow and the first few seasons of this show, will always be one of my favorite characters though.   From the original Black Canary on Arrow to Captain Lance in seasons 2 and 3….that’s the Sara that I loved.  

[Starfish35]

From TVLine:
Caity Lotz on Legends of Tomorrow’s Cancellation: 'I Am Endlessly Grateful' to Have Played Sara for This Long

Quote

Caity Lotz is understandably sad about Legends of Tomorrow‘s cancellation after seven seasons, yet incredibly grateful to have played Sara Lance for so long.

Lotz of course first played Sara aka Black Canary on Arrow in October 2013, and was a steady presence there (brief death and all!) until The CW decided to spin the hero off into a new series that debuted in January 2016 and originally also starred Victor Garber, Brandon Routh, Arthur Darvill, Franz Drameh, Ciara Renée, Falk Hentschel, Dominic Purcell and Wentworth Miller.

Meaning, Lotz stood as the sole remaining OG cast member.

-

“I am bummed! I am sad, I’m going to miss it so much,” she shared in a series of Instagram Story videos. “I’m go to miss our amazing cast and crew. But at the same time I recognize how lucky have been to play Sara Lance for this long.

“Working on Legends has been amazing. It’s been such a journey and I am so endlessly grateful for it, and for you guys,” she continued. “So, thank you. To all the Legends of Tomorrow fans out there we love you guys so much. And it has been a blast.”

Edited April 30, 2022 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

I’m feeling oddly sad about the cancellation, since I hadn’t watched for a couple of seasons.  I feel bad for all the fans that they ended on a cliffhanger, and I feel sad that it ended like this, without a proper wrap up.  

I hope we still get to see Sara somewhere down the road, but it sounds like WB Discovery is winding down the Arrowverse.   And I hope we get to see Caity go on to bigger and better things.  

[shantown]

Would love to see Sara Lance pop up for an episode or two on the Flash since she and Barry had a connection in past crossovers (and most of Barry's other friends are dead or also cancelled). Sara and Barry are two of the last OG leads so it could be a nice small send-off for her character and a nice mini-crossover for fans.

(she can leave her wife at home though)

[scarynikki12]

If it's an episode where Barry's future kids show up then Sara can bring hers to make friends. I agree that Flash is the most likely show to see Sara or other characters again. Ray was one of several who were part of the non-crossover crossover that Flash did to start their season so there's precedent.

[lurker22]

I would prefer not to see Sara's wife or kid if Sara ever goes to visit Barry. Basically, I want to forget about the whole pregnancy storyline.

It would be good to see Sara on Flash though, since the Flash writers actually know how to write Sara. And she did bond with Barry on the last crossover. Caity also directed an episode of Flash, so she should be on pretty good terms with the Flash crew?

[SaraLanceArrow]

As a Sara fan I am actually absolutely happy they cancelled the show. I know this sounds ridiculous, but for me it was a torture to watch a character that has nothing to do with Sara Lance, but being called and referred to as Sara Lance. Even Caity Lotz had said that she is playing different character on Legends than the one on Arrow. Anyway for me her story ended when she became Paragon of Destiny. In my head cannon, her ending was how she remained protector of time for eternity, as a hero bigger than anyone. She was never killed, cloned, impregnated through saliva, she has a team that will put being a legend first and do everything to protect their captain, and a life partner that is fierce independent leader of her own. not a clone creation of an abominable douche, with one characteristic that defines her personality, and achievement of being co- to her wife.

[SaraLanceArrow]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:43 PM, Proteus said:

Dismiss the campaign. That's the overall response I see from the ones who do not care about Legends Of Tomorrow . The hard work people put in it is amazing and it is still going strong. Nothings going to change that. 

I'm not exaggerating or making stuff up. The Legends fan campaign is huge. 

Things being auctioned off means nothing. Props & sets can be replaced.

The cast & crew had every right not to wrap up Legends at the end of 7. Nothing pointed to the show being canceled the fall of 2021

I'm not denying anything. Most fans do not want the Legends on Flash. 

I bring up Avalance because they are relevant to the schism between fans who watch this show. Especially with how much hate they get on this forum that does not match the overall response. 

Anytime Caity says anything positive about Legends or Ava it's because she's lying to appease those supporters to the ones who hate the pairing. Sorry. I'll never believe that.

Mid series is when Legends grew it's fanbase & a lot of people embraced the show & started giving it praise & accolades.

You can counter, dismiss, & say I'm wrong & you're right. I know how this goes. 

Burlingame feelings are just as relevant as the people who hate LOT. And there has been way more love for LOT than hate over the years.

My bottom line is this. It doesn't matter how much anyone says LOT is over. A lot of fans will never give up hope. 

Caity Lotz sold her apartment months before the cancellation was announced and the last episode was aired. They all knew there won't be any more seasons.

All of them supported the campaign because they are nice people who support their fans, and also it is free promotion of the show which is still on streaming, or was at the time.

Keto leaving the show and yet deciding to write an episode where they put Legends in jail is a dck move. It is like - I do not care what happens I am moving on any way. And then she claims she cares for Sara as a character even from Arrow is a lie, as she never showed she actually knows Sara's personality at all. Plot lines like:

- wanting to go on a boat

- not knowing how to read a road map

- ending pregnant in jail

- erasing her scars, and not even showing them in a single scenes during the whole show

- cutting the scenes where she talks about her father

- not giving her any proper arc after being killed and cloned, or proper arc for her blindness, or proper arc for forgiving herslef

- making her into a puppet for Darhk's enjoyment

- using her regeneration powers for an excuse to kill her more

- making suddenly someone who choses Robo Nate to kill her rather than actually fight him

- playing parody characters more than being Sara Lance

and many more - just proves Keto( or Phil)  does not care for Sara as a character. So people saying Flash would ruin her are ridiculous, when Legends ruined her more.

And it is not even about Ava or Avalance. It is about Sara, and how she is treated and how she is written in her own screen time and development. Wanting more background and quality stories for Sara has nothing to do with Avalance. They could co-exist.

There are many fans of Avalance simply because they are lgbtq couple, and I completely understand that. They come to the show solely for the couple, but then the writers are the ones who decide the stories and they could have given both Sara and Ava quality stories instead of these heterosexual stereotypes of how lesbians are always horny, hating bisexuals, wanting domestic life, alien babies , and surprise saliva impregnation. Oh and lets not forget both becoming clones and have one father creator - the man who killed Sara.

And yes Caity said Sara died for real. Whether she liked that plot line or not is something we can only speculate as no one asked her in any interview about it. There was no article about this plot line and even the writers never explained it. And yes Caity loves Avalance, because she is a huge LGBTQ supporter and she loves the representation, but she also had said that she wanted more deeper content for Sara, and this does not make it less representation, because writing quality storylines for lgbtq character is better representation than kissing and holding hands. She always speak more fondly for Arrow than anything she was given as acting on Legends, which for her is just fun but when she talks about stretching her acting she talks about Arrow.

 

[Proteus]

16 hours ago, SaraLanceArrow said:

Caity Lotz sold her apartment months before the cancellation was announced and the last episode was aired. They all knew there won't be any more seasons.

All of them supported the campaign because they are nice people who support their fans, and also it is free promotion of the show which is still on streaming, or was at the time.

Keto leaving the show and yet deciding to write an episode where they put Legends in jail is a dck move. It is like - I do not care what happens I am moving on any way. And then she claims she cares for Sara as a character even from Arrow is a lie, as she never showed she actually knows Sara's personality at all. Plot lines like:

- wanting to go on a boat

- not knowing how to read a road map

- ending pregnant in jail

- erasing her scars, and not even showing them in a single scenes during the whole show

- cutting the scenes where she talks about her father

- not giving her any proper arc after being killed and cloned, or proper arc for her blindness, or proper arc for forgiving herslef

- making her into a puppet for Darhk's enjoyment

- using her regeneration powers for an excuse to kill her more

- making suddenly someone who choses Robo Nate to kill her rather than actually fight him

- playing parody characters more than being Sara Lance

and many more - just proves Keto( or Phil)  does not care for Sara as a character. So people saying Flash would ruin her are ridiculous, when Legends ruined her more.

And it is not even about Ava or Avalance. It is about Sara, and how she is treated and how she is written in her own screen time and development. Wanting more background and quality stories for Sara has nothing to do with Avalance. They could co-exist.

There are many fans of Avalance simply because they are lgbtq couple, and I completely understand that. They come to the show solely for the couple, but then the writers are the ones who decide the stories and they could have given both Sara and Ava quality stories instead of these heterosexual stereotypes of how lesbians are always horny, hating bisexuals, wanting domestic life, alien babies , and surprise saliva impregnation. Oh and lets not forget both becoming clones and have one father creator - the man who killed Sara.

And yes Caity said Sara died for real. Whether she liked that plot line or not is something we can only speculate as no one asked her in any interview about it. There was no article about this plot line and even the writers never explained it. And yes Caity loves Avalance, because she is a huge LGBTQ supporter and she loves the representation, but she also had said that she wanted more deeper content for Sara, and this does not make it less representation, because writing quality storylines for lgbtq character is better representation than kissing and holding hands. She always speak more fondly for Arrow than anything she was given as acting on Legends, which for her is just fun but when she talks about stretching her acting she talks about Arrow.

 

They did not know there wouldn't be more seasons. They all expected they were coming back for season 8. Olivia Swann flat out said so. Caity, Adam, Jes, they all believed they were coming back. They all knew their were plans for season 8. They had ideas for what was coming in season 8 because they were told what the plans for their characters were. Klemmer said in an interview he told Caity about Sara being pregnant for season 8. Plans for Zaris season 8 story were talked about. Donald Faison was brought on the show to be a regular in season 8. Caity selling her apartment means nothing really. Especially since her then fiance also lived in Canada. Caity tweeted & talked about that she was definitely returning for season 8. She even said how the show was planning on casting classmates for the Legends in time jail.

Phil Klemmer has been with the show from day 1. Keto was leaving but he wasn't & he had a lot of plans for season 8 & talked about them in multiple interviews after the s7 finale aired.

The cast supports the campaign because they love the show & wanted to do season 8.

I understand & get that the plot lines you've laid out may have upset you, but many Sara, Avalance, & Legends fans were not upset by them or see them as disrespecting Sara. Not all Sara fans see Arrow as the best of the best of Sara Lance. That show never cared about her. Sara was just a plot point for Laurels journey in becoming Black Canary. That's why they killed Sara off in season 3 episode 1. Arrow did Sara even worse when they brought her back at the end of the season as a drug induced vision just to prop Laurel even more. Sara would likely still be dead if not for Legends & Marc G wanting to have her on Legends. Arrow may have created Sara, but Legends Of Tomorrow is the reason she was brought back to the Arrowverse after Arrow literally disposed of her like she was just trash.

I've seen a lot of Avalance fans who love them because they are a good couple with good chemistry & writing. Not just because they are LGBT.

Not sure why Caity saying Sara supposedly died for real matters. Especially since the show & characters on the show, including Sara herself, did not treat the Sara that came back from Bishops planet any different. And when the episode was filming that revealed the Sara clone twist, Caity tweeted her excitement over the episodes ending.

Anytime Caitys been tweeted at about Arrow Sara being better than Legends Sara she has defended Legends & said how mush she loves the show & what they've done with her. So I don't think she prefers Arrow over Legends.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Proteus

[SaraLanceArrow]

3 hours ago, Proteus said:

They did not know there wouldn't be more seasons. They all expected they were coming back for season 8. Olivia Swann flat out said so. Caity, Adam, Jes, they all believed they were coming back. They all knew their were plans for season 8. They had ideas for what was coming in season 8 because they were told what the plans for their characters were. Klemmer said in an interview he told Caity about Sara being pregnant for season 8. Plans for Zaris season 8 story were talked about. Donald Faison was brought on the show to be a regular in season 8. Caity selling her apartment means nothing really. Especially since her then fiance also lived in Canada. Caity tweeted & talked about that she was definitely returning for season 8. She even said how the show was planning on casting classmates for the Legends in time jail.

Phil Klemmer has been with the show from day 1. Keto was leaving but he wasn't & he had a lot of plans for season 8 & talked about them in multiple interviews after the s7 finale aired.

The cast supports the campaign because they love the show & wanted to do season 8.

I understand & get that the plot lines you've laid out may have upset you, but many Sara, Avalance, & Legends fans were not upset by them or see them as disrespecting Sara. Not all Sara fans see Arrow as the best of the best of Sara Lance. That show never cared about her. Sara was just a plot point for Laurels journey in becoming Black Canary. That's why they killed Sara off in season 3 episode 1. Arrow did Sara even worse when they brought her back at the end of the season as a drug induced vision just to prop Laurel even more. Sara would likely still be dead if not for Legends & Marc G wanting to have her on Legends. Arrow may have created Sara, but Legends Of Tomorrow is the reason she was brought back to the Arrowverse after Arrow literally disposed of her like she was just trash.

I've seen a lot of Avalance fans who love them because they are a good couple with good chemistry & writing. Not just because they are LGBT.

Not sure why Caity saying Sara supposedly died for real matters. Especially since the show & characters on the show, including Sara herself, did not treat the Sara that came back from Bishops planet any different. And when the episode was filming that revealed the Sara clone twist, Caity tweeted her excitement over the episodes ending.

Anytime Caitys been tweeted at about Arrow Sara being better than Legends Sara she has defended Legends & said how mush she loves the show & what they've done with her. So I don't think she prefers Arrow over Legends.

I think you fail to see that the  - 'we all thought there will be season 8' - is just an act they all adopted, because they can't admit they knew the chance for s8 was small, but still did the cliff hanger. Besides no one loses if they have free posters in LA and New York, or trending Legends. I am also sure the actor for Booster Gold was not really signed a deal. And closing studios do no happen from suddenly. 

Phil Klemmer also said that he wasn't sure Caity would love the pregnancy plot line, so we can also see that she agreed to it, because they knew she would never see the light of day. Caity also had said on ' inside of you' podcast, that she was tired of playing Sara Lance, and that it was difficult on Legends as she had a lot of screen time but mostly as supporting character to other character's stories.

Also realistically pregnancy story line would have benched her even more, or put her on the background even more. EBR left the show after Felicity became a mother. And I am sure all the avalance fans have tones of ideas of domestic plot lines of how avalance take care of the baby, but this is not what the show is about, and this still would have meant that they will be there for two minites screen time just to satisfy the portion of fandom who cares solely for two women changing diapers. Which again, I am sure Caity Lotz would not sign up for.

And yes I do understand why people love Avalance - they are two gorgeous women who kiss and hold hands. For some people this is enough. And the fact they are not bothered by the plot lines I mentioned speaks a lot, speaks they do not really care for representation, or empowerment. They care for the shippers feelings they have when they watch them. They also do not care for the characters. And intimacy is important, and I also love it. But I do watch for more. I want more from female characters in a superhero show. If this was family drama, then yes, let them change diapers. But this is a superhero show and I am here for that content.

So I want Sara to have the content they gave Constantine for example - I want her to be more than just love interest. How was it possible for Constantine to be able to have the love plot line, the drug plot line, the hell plot line, the personal villains, the characters from his show, saving Astra, seeing his parents and ancestors, keeping his darkness and autonomy. But Sara was not possible to talk about her father, her past, explore whether she was in hell when she was dead, save the girl whose father she killed, have personal villain, kill darhk in the end, show emotions over her blindness and so on.

And now to answer your Arrow comment - come on - you barely care whether they killed and cloned Sara, because you see the writers didn't addressed it, and the characters didn't care, but you 'care' how Arrow used Sara for Laurel's Black Canary arc? This is just funny. I mean all Avalance fans that hate on Sara's plot on Arrow are such hypocrites. Tell me how exactly Sara was not a tool for Ava all these last seasons? Didn't she became from someone who sacrifices her sister for the timeline to someone with a motto - I screw the timeline for the better - just to give Ava the personality of a time cop? Didn't she became blind just so Ava can become co -captain? Didn't she not talked about her dead father, just so she can be happy with Ava. All this characterization and plot lines were given to her so they can build up Ava. SO how is that different to what Arrow did. Sara even was killed and cloned in the end so she can be a clone like Ava. The difference with Arrow is that the show at least gave her one season where she had actual development and plot lines. On Arrow she had more development and more characterization than 7 seasons of Legends. Remove Arrow from her story and you do not have Sara Lance, but a stereotype of a bad ass blond assassin who kicks ass and kisses girls. What made Sara unique is her story from Arrow, and a little bit from Legends the first two seasons. So I suppose Legends could have easily just cast another blond actress for their show and made her bad ass assassin and it would have been the same.

[Proteus]

12 hours ago, SaraLanceArrow said:

I think you fail to see that the  - 'we all thought there will be season 8' - is just an act they all adopted, because they can't admit they knew the chance for s8 was small, but still did the cliff hanger. Besides no one loses if they have free posters in LA and New York, or trending Legends. I am also sure the actor for Booster Gold was not really signed a deal. And closing studios do no happen from suddenly. 

Phil Klemmer also said that he wasn't sure Caity would love the pregnancy plot line, so we can also see that she agreed to it, because they knew she would never see the light of day. Caity also had said on ' inside of you' podcast, that she was tired of playing Sara Lance, and that it was difficult on Legends as she had a lot of screen time but mostly as supporting character to other character's stories.

Also realistically pregnancy story line would have benched her even more, or put her on the background even more. EBR left the show after Felicity became a mother. And I am sure all the avalance fans have tones of ideas of domestic plot lines of how avalance take care of the baby, but this is not what the show is about, and this still would have meant that they will be there for two minites screen time just to satisfy the portion of fandom who cares solely for two women changing diapers. Which again, I am sure Caity Lotz would not sign up for.

And yes I do understand why people love Avalance - they are two gorgeous women who kiss and hold hands. For some people this is enough. And the fact they are not bothered by the plot lines I mentioned speaks a lot, speaks they do not really care for representation, or empowerment. They care for the shippers feelings they have when they watch them. They also do not care for the characters. And intimacy is important, and I also love it. But I do watch for more. I want more from female characters in a superhero show. If this was family drama, then yes, let them change diapers. But this is a superhero show and I am here for that content.

So I want Sara to have the content they gave Constantine for example - I want her to be more than just love interest. How was it possible for Constantine to be able to have the love plot line, the drug plot line, the hell plot line, the personal villains, the characters from his show, saving Astra, seeing his parents and ancestors, keeping his darkness and autonomy. But Sara was not possible to talk about her father, her past, explore whether she was in hell when she was dead, save the girl whose father she killed, have personal villain, kill darhk in the end, show emotions over her blindness and so on.

And now to answer your Arrow comment - come on - you barely care whether they killed and cloned Sara, because you see the writers didn't addressed it, and the characters didn't care, but you 'care' how Arrow used Sara for Laurel's Black Canary arc? This is just funny. I mean all Avalance fans that hate on Sara's plot on Arrow are such hypocrites. Tell me how exactly Sara was not a tool for Ava all these last seasons? Didn't she became from someone who sacrifices her sister for the timeline to someone with a motto - I screw the timeline for the better - just to give Ava the personality of a time cop? Didn't she became blind just so Ava can become co -captain? Didn't she not talked about her dead father, just so she can be happy with Ava. All this characterization and plot lines were given to her so they can build up Ava. SO how is that different to what Arrow did. Sara even was killed and cloned in the end so she can be a clone like Ava. The difference with Arrow is that the show at least gave her one season where she had actual development and plot lines. On Arrow she had more development and more characterization than 7 seasons of Legends. Remove Arrow from her story and you do not have Sara Lance, but a stereotype of a bad ass blond assassin who kicks ass and kisses girls. What made Sara unique is her story from Arrow, and a little bit from Legends the first two seasons. So I suppose Legends could have easily just cast another blond actress for their show and made her bad ass assassin and it would have been the same.

I'm not failing to see anything. No one knew or had any idea that Legends would be canceled when season 7 was filming. All the facts corroborate that. No info doesn't. 

DC told Legends to replace Nate with Nick Zano leaving with another DC character. Even DC wanted & believed the show would continue.

The Sara/Ava pg story was written. Caity didn't have to agree to anything. She wasnt lied to or promised the show was ending so shed not have to do it. What? LOL.It was happening & the show had every intention on following it through. Caity was fine with the story. No one  had to convince her to do anything. She joked she didn't want to be fat. No big deal. 

And Im just as sure Caity would have played whatever Avalance story was written.  Domestic Avlance or not.She was not going to leave the show & was going to be in season 8. Caity would never have thrown her foot down & refused to do an Avalance scene or plot. There is zero evidence that she'd ever do that. 

Not everyone shares the anger & hatred for Legends. Not all Sara fans agree that Legends ruined her, did her dirty, etc. If you loved Sara from season 2 of Arrow I can understand. But there's way more love for Sara from Legends. Legends did way better with Sara than Arrow ever did. Sara would have never become the lead character on Arrow or probably even a series regular that's seen week to week.

Not everyone thinks Sara's one season on Arrow was gold. Many love the Sara of Legends. Legends did a lot of great things with Sara through the years.

I'm not going to go through every plot line Sara has had on Legends & defend them. I and many others had no problem with them. I didn't hate or feel like Sara was being disrespected or ruined. I don't agree with the feelings of the Arrow/Sara fans on Sara. Sara grew beyond Arrow. People change. Sara didn't have to always be the person she was on another show. Sara spent three seasons of Legends dealing with self loathing. Legends decided to move her beyond that. Characters are allowed to grow.

Legends only started getting accolades & put on best show lists from season 3 on. The show received way more love than hate for the later years. And so did Sara & Avalance. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Proteus

[scarynikki12]

This discussion is starting to go in circles so time to move on.