Little House On The Prairie - General Discussion

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

What I will never understand is ML’s disdain for the books and saying you couldn’t make a series out of them. 

I can think of so many examples and wasted opportunities, just off the top of my head. 

From LHITBW:

Dance at Grandma’s where Laura Ingalls Sr bests youngest son, George, at a dance-off and we get to meet the Ingalls extended clan. The Christmas chapter where Laura gets Charlotte. Laura getting punished for slapping Mary over boasting that aunt Lottie prefers blond hair.

LHOTP - the whole book was full of drama and granted, the TV pilot followed it as closely as the show ever would, but it could have easily been a full season.

OTBOPC - the Laura/Nellie rivalry (Town Party/Country Party came close but the Olga plot wasn’t needed). The grasshopper plague. The Christmas where Nellie had no muff LOL. Laura almost drowning in Plum Creek. Pa being trapped in a blizzard.

BTSOSL - Charles Jr’s birth (I know, not technically in the original series, Grace’s birth and Mary going blind. Laura and Lena’s friendship. Leaving Minnesota for the Dakota Territory. Grace being thought lost on the prairie.

TLW - like LHOTP, the entire book was made of drama, danger, and excitement. Hello, Cap and Almanzo risking their lives to go after the wheat to keep the town from starving.

LTOTP - Mary going away to school and Carrie helping to fill that void. Laura’s friendships with Mary, Minnie, and Ida. The return of Nellie Olesen. Laura’s crushes on Cap and Ben. The drama gold with her and Eliza Jane and “I’ll rock that desk, Miss Wilder!” Laura and Ida’s history recitation and Almanzo asking to see Laura home.

THGY - Laura and Almanzo’s relationship done right. Laura’s nightmare guest teaching job with crazy Mrs. Brewster. The clothing and accessories porn vs the same tired red-brown dress. Mary’s return. Laura and Almanzo’s wedding.

You get the idea.

Yeah I read the books for the first time while watching the show about a year or two ago and was really shocked some of the things they never chose to adapt, especially that run for the wheat. That whole book is really intense. 

[Mr. Sparkle]

I also read the books for the first time a year or so ago (except for LHotP, I read that as a kid.)

It was interesting to see the things briefly mentioned in the books but became big in the series, like Mrs. Oleson and even Johnny Johnson. Also, I understand why it was set in once place with the basic same set of townsfolk, but why Walnut Grove instead of DeSmet? I don't think they even really called it Walnut Grove in the books; they called it Hero Township IIRC. 

The Long Winter could have been a 3-5 episode arc and I think the cast would've have done a good job with it. 

[Blergh]

7 hours ago, Superclam said:

I also read the books for the first time a year or so ago (except for LHotP, I read that as a kid.)

It was interesting to see the things briefly mentioned in the books but became big in the series, like Mrs. Oleson and even Johnny Johnson. Also, I understand why it was set in once place with the basic same set of townsfolk, but why Walnut Grove instead of DeSmet? I don't think they even really called it Walnut Grove in the books; they called it Hero Township IIRC. 

The Long Winter could have been a 3-5 episode arc and I think the cast would've have done a good job with it. 

My guess is that the name of 'Walnut Grove' sounded more appealing than 'DeSmet' or 'Hero Township' (though the latter seemed to be the supposed 'metro area' that Walnut Grove was a tiny part of).

[debraran]

12 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

What I will never understand is ML’s disdain for the books and saying you couldn’t make a series out of them. 

I can think of so many examples and wasted opportunities, just off the top of my head. 

From LHITBW:

Dance at Grandma’s where Laura Ingalls Sr bests youngest son, George, at a dance-off and we get to meet the Ingalls extended clan. The Christmas chapter where Laura gets Charlotte. Laura getting punished for slapping Mary over boasting that aunt Lottie prefers blond hair.

LHOTP - the whole book was full of drama and granted, the TV pilot followed it as closely as the show ever would, but it could have easily been a full season.

OTBOPC - the Laura/Nellie rivalry (Town Party/Country Party came close but the Olga plot wasn’t needed). The grasshopper plague. The Christmas where Nellie had no muff LOL. Laura almost drowning in Plum Creek. Pa being trapped in a blizzard.

BTSOSL - Charles Jr’s birth (I know, not technically in the original series, Grace’s birth and Mary going blind. Laura and Lena’s friendship. Leaving Minnesota for the Dakota Territory. Grace being thought lost on the prairie.

TLW - like LHOTP, the entire book was made of drama, danger, and excitement. Hello, Cap and Almanzo risking their lives to go after the wheat to keep the town from starving.

LTOTP - Mary going away to school and Carrie helping to fill that void. Laura’s friendships with Mary, Minnie, and Ida. The return of Nellie Olesen. Laura’s crushes on Cap and Ben. The drama gold with her and Eliza Jane and “I’ll rock that desk, Miss Wilder!” Laura and Ida’s history recitation and Almanzo asking to see Laura home.

THGY - Laura and Almanzo’s relationship done right. Laura’s nightmare guest teaching job with crazy Mrs. Brewster. The clothing and accessories porn vs the same tired red-brown dress. Mary’s return. Laura and Almanzo’s wedding.

You get the idea.

Yes, he did embellish a lot but he left things out as you stated that could have worked well. I thought the long blizzard could have been a 2 part episode but from Karen said, he hated "gritty". I don't think he had to show the bleeding hands but showing what real pioneers had to do to survive at times. He cleansed it to the point that to this day people say they want to live like them at times. Karen was right that  they made it seem lovely,  I know they'd NEVER show them using chamber pot, but how about the frozen clothes, or more episodes trying to do chores in horrible weather. I liked Xmas episodes but why not show the barrels they would get, the gifts? I would have loved to see that over the Bunny episode. Why not have an episode that shows the magazines they got and lived for reading and Ma would tell them to stretch out reading them for the winter. Maybe incorporate a little of each into one? For whatever reason, the shows that he thought people wanted changed and instead of doing heartwarming, he wanted to compete with death, fires, death, rape, death, addiction, etc. Ratings were king but I agree, he could have used so much more from the books. Maybe he never really read them?

Edited September 3, 2022 by debraran

[jason88cubs]

I always thought "Survival" could have been a 2 part episode

[Snow Apple]

Oh how I love the books showing how important reading was since prairie life was so hard and had little entertainment. One of my favorite part was Mrs. Broast giving Laura all those ledgers and Mary telling her to hurry up with the chores so they can start on the stories, and even Ma was so excited and told Laura to forget the chores and start reading.

And in The Long Winter, the excitement of Pa running back to inform the family the mail train made it through. The happiness when he came back with the magazines and letter from Reverend Alden. Later when spring finally arrives, Pa and Mr. Broast was so glad to have a  newspaper to read again while the ladies prepared the Thanksgiving (or was it Christmas?) dinner party held in May.

[Mr. Sparkle]

7 hours ago, Blergh said:

My guess is that the name of 'Walnut Grove' sounded more appealing than 'DeSmet'

I have to agree with that. DeSmet sounds like a sneeze. 

[Egg McMuffin]

I did hear them mention “Hero Township” on the show a few times. But yes, “Walnut Grove” sounds so cozy.

There is an opportunity for a true adaptation of the books. I never saw the 2005 miniseries, which I heard stayed closer to the source material. And another potential adaptation has been kicking around in development for the past few years. The issue is: can people put aside their memories of the original series to give it a chance. Not sure they were able to in 2005.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Egg McMuffin

[Brn2bwild]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:32 AM, Egg McMuffin said:

I did hear them mention “Hero Township” on the show a few times. But yes, “Walnut Grove” sounds so cozy.

There is an opportunity for a true adaptation of the books. I never saw the 2005 miniseries, which I heard stayed closer to the source material. And another potential adaptation has been kicking around in development for the past few years. The issue is: can people put aside their memories of the original series to give it a chance. Not sure they were able to in 2005.

They could make a good, unique version that also incorporates older Laura and her relationship with Rose.  The framing could be Rose encouraging her mother to write the books and then later assisting and at times embellishing the events that occurred, which would be portrayed on screen.

[jason88cubs]

We know they did Christmas themed episodes

Did they do any other holiday episodes besides the Halloween one?

[jird]

They did two Halloween ones, the good one and the awful one.

They mentioned Thanksgiving when Grandpa was there and Carrie  thought the turkey was going to be a dinner guest..

And I think The Last Farewell was set at Easter.

[jason88cubs]

3 hours ago, jird said:

They did two Halloween ones, the good one and the awful one.

They mentioned Thanksgiving when Grandpa was there and Carrie  thought the turkey was going to be a dinner guest..

And I think The Last Farewell was set at Easter.

That's one thing i miss about shows, episodes themed around holidays. Makes me wanna watch "the Honeymooners" Christmas episode now

[jird]

Agreed. I watch all the Frasier Christmas episodes every year, along with the Jeffersons.

[debraran]

I love holiday shows, even ER which I loved years ago, I'll watch holiday episodes on Hulu. They were always mixed but heartwarming too. I wish LHOP did more but I think Walton's did. You always wanted to sit with them around the table. ; )

[jason88cubs]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:39 AM, debraran said:

I love holiday shows, even ER which I loved years ago, I'll watch holiday episodes on Hulu. They were always mixed but heartwarming too. I wish LHOP did more but I think Walton's did. You always wanted to sit with them around the table. ; )

Yea Waltons had The Homecoming Christmas movie of course and I think 2 Christmas episodes? maybe 3? Had a Thanksgiving one where John Boy gets hurt,(it just took place around Thanksgiving) and when Olivia recovered from polio I believe it was on Easter

[jason88cubs]

Watched "The Stranger" yesterday. Great episode

[Mr. Sparkle]

2 minutes ago, jason88cubs said:

Watched "The Stranger" yesterday. Great episode

I had to google that one, because the title wasn't familiar. It was a pretty good episode, but a weird title. Of course, several characters we never saw again. 

[jason88cubs]

Just now, Superclam said:

I had to google that one, because the title wasn't familiar. It was a pretty good episode, but a weird title. Of course, several characters we never saw again. 

yea seems like by the title you would think it would be a adult, maybe a relative  of Charles or Caroline, or a new person to town

[jason88cubs]

On 9/14/2022 at 11:13 AM, jason88cubs said:

I felt bad that Laura and Carrie couldn't go to Mary's wedding

[jason88cubs]

Having chicken noodle soup and I'm thinking, did they ever eat soup on the show? Feel like it would be common, but I don;t recall hearing it

[debraran]

27 minutes ago, jason88cubs said:

Having chicken noodle soup and I'm thinking, did they ever eat soup on the show? Feel like it would be common, but I don;t recall hearing it

Now that you mention it you never hear "chicken soup" for colds or just because chickens were around and veggies. They seemed to love stews instead. Granted it would take bowls and they had those tin plates but if Ma kept the widows dishes, she had nice ones. ; )

On one site I found this The 1870’s “Housekeeping in Old Virginia Cookbook” is full of recipes for wild game, as well as parts of domestic animals we wince at today: barbecue squirrel, calf’s head soup, baked sheep’s head, scalloped sturgeon, baked hog tongue, pig jowl and turnip salad, turtle soup, pigeon pie, pig head hash, tongue a la terrapin (turtle), soused calves’ feet, roast ox heart, calf brain pudding, and lamb brain fricassee are just a sampling of delicious frontier cuisine.  Soups and stews were also popular and had the advantage of flexibility in using whatever leftovers were available. In 1910, Horace Kephart wrote "The Book of Camping and Woodcraft: A Guidebook for Those who Travel in the Wilderness." In it, he featured a classic pioneer concoction called the “Never-Go-Bad Perpetual Soup.” He wrote: “Into it go all the clean ends of game — heads, tails, wings, feet, giblets, large bones — also the leftovers of fish, flesh, and fowl, of any and all sorts of vegetables, rice or other cereals, macaroni, stale bread, everything edible.” The pot is “always kept hot” and its “flavors are forever changing, but ever welcome.”

Edited September 25, 2022 by debraran

[jird]

I remember Charles ordering soup at a fancy restaurant when he had to foot the dinner bill for Almanzo and Mary in the dumb episode where he and Almanzo raced their freight wagons.

[jason88cubs]

11 hours ago, jird said:

I remember Charles ordering soup at a fancy restaurant when he had to foot the dinner bill for Almanzo and Mary in the dumb episode where he and Almanzo raced their freight wagons.

wasn't there a similar episode where him and Edwards raced someone or was that a camping one?

Edited September 26, 2022 by jason88cubs

[jird]

15 hours ago, jason88cubs said:

wasn't there a similar episode where him and Edwards raced someone or was that a camping one?

Charles and Jonathan raced two other guys for a freighting contracts. That episode gave us Jonathan announcing, "Them's snails!" in the fancy French restaurant.

[Katy M]

19 hours ago, jird said:

Charles and Jonathan raced two other guys for a freighting contracts. That episode gave us Jonathan announcing, "Them's snails!" in the fancy French restaurant.

I felt so embarrassed for them in that scene. It was ridiculous.

[debraran]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I felt so embarrassed for them in that scene. It was ridiculous.

I didn't know what seemed more ludicrous....a fancy French restaurant or how dumb they tried to make "country folk". He always wanted a huge divide between them and anyone not in Walnut Grove.

[Mr. Sparkle]

I thought they did Garvey dirty in that scene. He was perfectly normal, if a bit "country" every other time. In the restaurant he was practically brain damaged. Couldn't even say "Italian." Charles wasn't much better, but of course he's going to look better than Garvey. 

[Blergh]

9 minutes ago, Superclam said:

I thought they did Garvey dirty in that scene. He was perfectly normal, if a bit "country" every other time. In the restaurant he was practically brain damaged. Couldn't even say "Italian." Charles wasn't much better, but of course he's going to look better than Garvey. 

Why would I not be surprised if ML wished Mr. Edwards had been in that scene instead of Jonathan? Victor French was MUCH more convincing as an uncultured (but well-meaning) rube than Merlin Olsen was.

[Mr. Sparkle]

16 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Victor French was MUCH more convincing as an uncultured (but well-meaning) rube than Merlin Olsen was.

Quoted for truth! 

[debraran]

I agree, they made it seem like Merle had brain damage even other times and very "rough around the edges" The way he spoke to his wife, just in general. Mr Edwards was good in his role, he could be more sophisticated for lack of a better word if needed, but he was a product of his upbringing and funny. I never could warm up to Jonathan but I understand the acting experience was very different and his range. I think his onscreen son spoke of that once in interview.

[jird]

Harriet and Nellie were both really awful many times, but I was watching The Race recently, and that one gets my vote for just the purely meanest behavior by Harriet. Not only was Harriet going out of her way to be mean to a child, but the fact that she wanted to cheat Laura out of a fair chance at the race when the only reason that Laura couldn't run the race was because she tired out her horse to help Harriet's own son? Her behavior was just despicable.

[Blergh]

16 hours ago, debraran said:

I agree, they made it seem like Merle had brain damage even other times and very "rough around the edges" The way he spoke to his wife, just in general. Mr Edwards was good in his role, he could be more sophisticated for lack of a better word if needed, but he was a product of his upbringing and funny. I never could warm up to Jonathan but I understand the acting experience was very different and his range. I think his onscreen son spoke of that once in interview.

Oddly enough, the main time Jonathan shined was when he beat up Standish's thugs (who'd beaten up Charles for objecting to their inappropriate remarks to Mary) and told the thugs to stay away from the Ingallses. I know that they couldn't have had Mr. Olsen constantly beat up thugs but it seemed him unleashing his intimidating physical prowess temporarily fleshed out this otherwise cardboard towering sidekick who seemed more simple than having not had an education.

[Blergh]

The way they rushed the whole deal of the Garveys being the Ingallses new besties the first show of the new season (after the last sightings of the Edwardses leaving 'Gold Country' with them) instead of depicting HOW they met and became friends gets me to think it's possible that ML somewhat had attempted to rework scripts/scenarios that he'd originally had had with the Edwardses in mind.

Of course, once Alice was no more and her widower and son went to another town, it wasn't long before the remaining Garveys were out of sight and mind to the Ingallses despite their gushy goodbyes. I wouldn't be surprised if Jonathan and Andrew simply wanted to put Walnut Grove and ALL its citizens behind them and they never so much as corresponded with the Ingallses after their sendoff episode (despite their new town's somewhat close proximity to Walnut Grove).  During the Christmas episode rehash when Laura recalled the aftermath of Baby Frederick's death and said that 'Jonathan' was the most interesting person she'd met, at first her parents awkwardly thought she might have been referring to the distanced Mr. Garvey but she quickly corrected them (to their apparent relief- despite the fact that they never met this other Jonathan).

[jird]

I just saw the first couple minutes of the Highway to Heaven pilot episode, and the very first person ML encounters is that guy from LH who hitched a ride with Charles and made Charles carry him through the swamp.

[jason88cubs]

On 9/3/2022 at 11:32 AM, Egg McMuffin said:

I did hear them mention “Hero Township” on the show a few times. But yes, “Walnut Grove” sounds so cozy.

There is an opportunity for a true adaptation of the books. I never saw the 2005 miniseries, which I heard stayed closer to the source material. And another potential adaptation has been kicking around in development for the past few years. The issue is: can people put aside their memories of the original series to give it a chance. Not sure they were able to in 2005.

You are right Walnut Grove just sounds right

[Egg McMuffin]

Matthew Laborteaux’s (Albert) foray into feature films, “Deadly Friend”, is scheduled to be shown on TCM - in all its unedited, commercial free glory - on Oct 29 at 9:45 pm. Worth watching for the basketball scene alone.

[jird]

I can't decide whether real life Ma would be more disappointed by the show's depiction of Laura as super boy-crazy, or that she constantly falls for such goofballs.

[jason88cubs]

I know times were different, but I can't imagine being in that little cabin all winter.

[Mr. Sparkle]

10 minutes ago, jason88cubs said:

I know times were different, but I can't imagine being in that little cabin all winter.

Have you read "The Long Winter?" 

[jason88cubs]

4 minutes ago, Superclam said:

Have you read "The Long Winter?" 

nope. Have not

[Mr. Sparkle]

It's basically the story of the Ingalls family snowed in for the winter with dwindling food and fuel. I think it's LIW's best writing. 

[Snow Apple]

I love The Long Winter even though it's bleak. They thought their supplies will last the winter, and if not, they were in town and figured they can buy what they need. But those storms lasted until May and trains couldn't get through. Early supply chain issues that we can't even imagine. 

I wish the show explored being trapped for a few episodes.

[debraran]

I agree, they missed good opportunities and shows not showing the grit of some of The Long Winter. They made the snow most of the time when it was rooftop seem like fun and other shows had them lost and were sad. No practical elements, what did they do, where did Ma have storage? How did they do dishes/laundry or keep sane. I wish they had the Xmas barrel in the show, maybe Carrie would get a gift. ; ) That was my favorite of the books because it showed how hard it was and I could almost feel my fingers bleeding and painful twisting twigs.

[Snow Apple]

I too love the parts on how they make do. As mentioned above, twisting hay to replace coal. How Ma made a candle with a button, cloth, and grease. Using a coffee grinder to mill wheat to make bread since there's no more flour.

[Zella]

The Long Winter is one of the best horror reads I've ever read. 

[Blergh]

One of the oddest events of the first blizzard of said winter was that the winds blew a bird into their house that appeared to them to have been a miniature. ..awk. They'd never seen such a bird before (or since) and evidently  even as an adult Mrs. Wilder never was able to identity what species it may have been even much less where it came from (and, I don't recall exactly what the Ingallses eventually did with it ).

[debraran]

I can see both sides with Michael and Karen (one of many disagreements) but compromise with grit would have been nice. How many of us would have liked to see a little more of what a pioneer woman did or man once in a while? Not have cooking seem so easy and smiling constantly...having laundry seem a little difficult but not always "done" and ready to hang. (Once Harriet was shown doing it I think)  Where is their root cellar or storage, not the sod house? Mentioned but never shown. Talk more of preparation for winter which is long and why did they hardly have kids reading when they did a lot then? Homework is one thing, but they did have books for pleasure. Have Caroline mention buying one for days they'd be in for many hours.

I get audiences didn't want to see reality Mike felt, probably true although Waltons for their era showed it pretty accurately. But we wanted to see Sylvia raped, your dad and others try to burn themselves (3 people to memory) houses burned with baby and loved one? I'd rather see Ma with some cuts (a suggestion of Karen's) than any of that!

Someone suggested since many American's don't research much, the love to be able to live like the Ingall;s was just to be like the TV family not real pioneers. They'd wonder why their clothes were dirty, smelled and food took hours and forget doing laundry. They'd be freezing trying to stay warm and just going to feed the animals during a snow storm would not look like lovely Caroline, perfectly coifed, skin glowing and hot coffee always ready on the stove with a smile. ; )

I accept the inaccuracies but still wish he didn't turn it dark in one way but not more realistic avenues. Just a little.

Edited October 20, 2022 by debraran

[Zella]

I agree 100%, @debraran! One of my problems I have with Michael Landon as a showrunner--and I have this problem with the Bonanza episodes he wrote/directed, you can always tell when it is him--is he seems to mistake melodrama for conflict and tension and he defaults to over-the-top, two-dimensional bad guys for antagonists rather than anything with any nuance. (His other go-to is making sure his character is the savior, but that is less pertinent to this conversation. LOL) 

There is a ton of conflict and tension to be mined from everyday life in that time period and nature is a great source for conflict. It didn't always have to be Harriet being a bitch or ever have to be a mime rapist. 

Actually I just realized him making himself the savior probably is pertinent since I think he was aware that you can't really write a character going up against nature and winning. So, no wonder he wasn't particularly interested in those stories. 

One of the things that disappoints me with the show--and I say this as someone who genuinely enjoys the first few seasons--is that the pilot movie was surprisingly gritty for the time. They could have easily maintained that tone for the TV show if they'd wanted to.

BTW, for those of y'all who liked The Long Winter and like less rosier depictions of pioneer life, you might like Melanie Benjamin's The Children's Blizzard. It's about a later blizzard (the infamous one from 1888) than what Wilder wrote about, but it's a pretty good book that I read around the same time I was reading the LHOTP books. 

[Snow Apple]

15 hours ago, Blergh said:

One of the oddest events of the first blizzard of said winter was that the winds blew a bird into their house that appeared to them to have been a miniature. ..awk. They'd never seen such a bird before (or since) and evidently  even as an adult Mrs. Wilder never was able to identity what species it may have been even much less where it came from (and, I don't recall exactly what the Ingallses eventually did with it ).

I felt bad the for the poor little thing. It wouldn't eat anything they provided and just looked at them desperately. In the end, they took it to the lake that was already starting to freeze up and it ran over the water and then finally flew away.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Snow Apple

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

I agree 100%, @debraran! One of my problems I have with Michael Landon as a showrunner--and I have this problem with the Bonanza episodes he wrote/directed, you can always tell when it is him--is he seems to mistake melodrama for conflict and tension and he defaults to over-the-top, two-dimensional bad guys for antagonists rather than anything with any nuance. (His other go-to is making sure his character is the savior, but that is less pertinent to this conversation. LOL) 

There is a ton of conflict and tension to be mined from everyday life in that time period and nature is a great source for conflict. It didn't always have to be Harriet being a bitch or ever have to be a mime rapist. 

Actually I just realized him making himself the savior probably is pertinent since I think he was aware that you can't really write a character going up against nature and winning. So, no wonder he wasn't particularly interested in those stories. 

One of the things that disappoints me with the show--and I say this as someone who genuinely enjoys the first few seasons--is that the pilot movie was surprisingly gritty for the time. They could have easily maintained that tone for the TV show if they'd wanted to.

BTW, for those of y'all who liked The Long Winter and like less rosier depictions of pioneer life, you might like Melanie Benjamin's The Children's Blizzard. It's about a later blizzard (the infamous one from 1888) than what Wilder wrote about, but it's a pretty good book that I read around the same time I was reading the LHOTP books. 

Yes I loved the pilot, and that's why Karen thought her ideas would be good since it was grittier. Maybe she should have told a guy and had him mention it to Michael and he would have let her have dirty hands once in a while gardening. ; )

I didn't like how almost every guy was mean and racist and cold outside main cast and forget the city, I think that was considered hell on earth. (until Charles wanted to move there) Make the unlikable people have more than one dimension. They do that more now, give people layers because it's more realistic.

Edited October 20, 2022 by debraran