Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think it part of the change in the show starting in season 6 - they eliminated the legal side which probably gave the captain more lines, and they put in more personal stuff and for some reason they gave Ross a more hands on role. The show really went downhill in season 6 IMO, losing Carver/Deakins plus the change in showrunners/addition of personal soapy plots resulted in a much weaker show, and Ross being a douche didn’t help matters.

And what they did to VDO and Goren is nothing less than criminal.

[WendyCR72]

I have said it countless times, but maybe had the writers given Deakins more to do than just say, "Step into him!" and maybe some more scenes like in "Yesterday", maybe Jamey Sheridan could have been convinced to stay.

His short role on his show, Shannon's Deal on NBC back in the day, which I posted video of pages back, shows that Sheridan had the charisma to pull it off.

[Xeliou66]

58 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I have said it countless times, but maybe had the writers given Deakins more to do than just say, "Step into him!" and maybe some more scenes like in "Yesterday", maybe Jamey Sheridan could have been convinced to stay.

His short role on his show, Shannon's Deal on NBC back in the day, which I posted video of pages back, shows that Sheridan had the charisma to pull it off.

I think the actor would’ve left regardless, since his family was in California I believe. I do wish they had given him a better role and I wish they had brought on a better replacement instead of Ross. 

 

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

And what they did to VDO and Goren is nothing less than criminal.

Yep, the destruction of Goren was terrible - they took all of the life out of the character and made him miserable and carrying around a load of baggage. I have no idea who thought tampering with the formula was a good idea. It’s why season 6 is by far my least favorite season, even worse than 9, 9 was dull and low energy but 6 just took the formula that made the show great and threw it out the window, putting in a ton of soapy drama, destroying Goren and giving Ross the turd a ton of screen time. The show went off a cliff starting in season 6. At least it rebounded and ended with a solid season 10, where Goren got some energy back and was no longer having so much baggage. 

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think the actor would’ve left regardless, since his family was in California I believe.

Now that you mention it, I think we touched upon that. Which, once more, makes me curious as to why Sheridan tested for the role at all, knowing the series was New York based.

Not saying he should not have taken the role of Jimmy Deakins. I liked the character and I liked Jamey Sheridan. It just seems weird that he would sign a contract for 5 seasons knowing the role would take him away from his loved ones.

I guess a job's a job, but still.

[WendyCR72]

And the glue-sniffing schedule monkeys at WE are at it again. LOL! While CI was scheduled in the late-night listings from 1:00 a.m. to 4:00 a.m Sunday morning (04/02/2023), the Mothership is on instead. (Which is fine as it is the seldom-seen Ceretta episodes!)

So I figured I'd go straight to the WE website to check the schedule...and it has NCIS airing at that time! (Um, no!)

So, apparently, the Mothership deal was a recent change or something. CI is still on the site for Thursday and Friday and other early-morning airings in the week. We'll see.

(But this has happened a lot on this channel, expecting one show listed and another airing instead.)

ETA: As I am still up, due to my odd work schedule, the 3:00 a.m. episode that was listed, "Con-Text", is just starting. But the other two before it, "The Pilgrim" and "Shandeh", were not shown since the Mothership was on. Shrug.

 

[peacheslatour]

And Paramount had Mothership at noon weekdays for about a month and now it's gone. FML.

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

And Paramount had Mothership at noon weekdays for about a month and now it's gone. FML.

This doesn't surprise me. Paramount and Paramount + are under the Viacom/CBS umbrella of ownership, so it's almost like promoting the competition.

[TakomaSnark]

FYI, presently the Peacock app is warning that CI will leaving Peacock in ten days.

[WendyCR72]

12 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

FYI, presently the Peacock app is warning that CI will leaving Peacock in ten days.

Could it be that it is just leaving the free tier? Because I have Peacock Premium (I pay $4.99 monthly) and have not seen any such notice on my app or via my laptop.

ETA: Scratch that. On the main page for CI where episodes are listed, it mentions 10 days left to watch...

This sucks.

[TakomaSnark]

@WendyCR72, looks like the Mothership is leaving in eight days! Unreal.

[peacheslatour]

18 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

@WendyCR72, looks like the Mothership is leaving in eight days! Unreal.

I fired off a sternly worded email, for all the good it will do.

[WendyCR72]

Paula Connors in "Happy Family" (last episode in today's marathon on WE) really was a piece of work. No wonder she drove her eldest to kill his dad, thinking the dad was trying to kill him.

I know she was dying, but I have no sympathy for her, and those boys were better off in juvenile detention or whatever and away from her.

[peacheslatour]

There was a Lifetime (I think) movie called Murder in the Hamptons based on the Generosa Rand case. It was the same sort of thing but the kids didn't end up killing anyone. 

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Paula Connors in "Happy Family" (last episode in today's marathon on WE) really was a piece of work. No wonder she drove her eldest to kill his dad, thinking the dad was trying to kill him.

I know she was dying, but I have no sympathy for her, and those boys were better off in juvenile detention or whatever and away from her.

She was despicable. The perp in this episode is arguably the most sympathetic perp in CI history, he really thought his dad was going to send him back to that orphanage. Happy Family was a messed up episode.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Paula Connors in "Happy Family" (last episode in today's marathon on WE) really was a piece of work. No wonder she drove her eldest to kill his dad, thinking the dad was trying to kill him.

I know she was dying, but I have no sympathy for her, and those boys were better off in juvenile detention or whatever and away from her.

She deserved that cancer a thousand times over. I’m pissed that Goren couldn’t find something to arrest her for.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

11 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

She deserved that cancer a thousand times over. I’m pissed that Goren couldn’t find something to arrest her for.

At least she would die a miserable death knowing she caused a murder. What a witch. She belongs on the awful parent list, of which there are so many on CI. It’s one episode where someone other than the perp is the most unsympathetic character.

[WendyCR72]

And her bleating, "I was just venting!" Please. She knew what she was saying. She could have done it to just the housekeeper, but the kids were always hearing it. She hated her ex and wanted the kids to hate their father, too.

Hence the story that he gave them cell phones to cause cancer.

I mean, that's sick.

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

And her bleating, "I was just venting!" Please. She knew what she was saying. She could have done it to just the housekeeper, but the kids were always hearing it. She hated her ex and wanted the kids to hate their father, too.

Hence the story that he gave them cell phones to cause cancer.

I mean, that's sick.

And the fact that she had the nerve to scream at Goren to leave the boy alone during the big confession made me want to throttle her. He wouldn’t BE in this situation if it weren’t for you!

She can mewl about not intending for it to happen all at once, but it really doesn’t matter. It’s just like if you bring a gun to a robbery, even if you claim you never intended to use it. Someone gets shot, it’s STILL your fault.

The same can be applied to the lying bitch mom in “Crazy.” I don’t care if your spouse is a cheating asshole. If you lie about shit and someone gets killed over it, you’re automatically the worse person. There are some lines that should never be crossed.

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And the fact that she had the nerve to scream at Goren to leave the boy alone during the big confession made me want to throttle her. He wouldn’t BE in this situation if it weren’t for you!

She can mewl about not intending for it to happen all at once, but it really doesn’t matter. It’s just like if you bring a gun to a robbery, even if you claim you never intended to use it. Someone gets shot, it’s STILL your fault.

The same can be applied to the lying bitch mom in “Crazy.” I don’t care if your spouse is a cheating asshole. If you lie about shit and someone gets killed over it, you’re automatically the worse person. There are some lines that should never be crossed.

Crazy was one of those episodes where no one was sympathetic. Not the obsessed creepy psychiatrist who hired the hitman, or the hitman, or the woman that the doc was obsessed with (she was just using him and stringing him along), nor the woman’s sister/victim’s ex who lied about him abusing the girl, nor even the victim, who was an asshole who was rigging the court proceedings. Only the children were sympathetic. It’s an excellent episode though, the doc was a memorable villain and the case was good, and seeing Skoda was awesome.

[WendyCR72]

Ah, a Season 3 block just started on WE with "Mad Hops".

On another note, the "X days left to watch..." message is no longer on the main Criminal Intent page on Peacock, nor next to any of the episodes. So maybe that changed.

(The notice is still evident for Mothership seasons 13 through 20.)

[TakomaSnark]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Ah, a Season 3 block just started on WE with "Mad Hops".

On another note, the "X days left to watch..." message is no longer on the main Criminal Intent page on Peacock, nor next to any of the episodes. So maybe that changed.

(The notice is still evident for Mothership seasons 13 through 20.)

Fingers crossed, @WendyCR72

[peacheslatour]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Ah, a Season 3 block just started on WE with "Mad Hops".

On another note, the "X days left to watch..." message is no longer on the main Criminal Intent page on Peacock, nor next to any of the episodes. So maybe that changed.

(The notice is still evident for Mothership seasons 13 through 20.)

Mothership is now on POP TV mostly towards the end of the week.

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Ah, a Season 3 block just started on WE with "Mad Hops".

On another note, the "X days left to watch..." message is no longer on the main Criminal Intent page on Peacock, nor next to any of the episodes. So maybe that changed.

(The notice is still evident for Mothership seasons 13 through 20.)

I watched Mad Hops before I fell asleep last night - it’s a good episode, I liked Goren’s basketball knowledge and I liked how they got to the bottom of the 2 murders and tied them to the coach. The woman the coach was in love with was unlikable IMO, she was just stringing the coach along, using him to get what she wanted. 

[peacheslatour]

37 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Mad Hops before I fell asleep last night - it’s a good episode, I liked Goren’s basketball knowledge and I liked how they got to the bottom of the 2 murders and tied them to the coach. The woman the coach was in love with was unlikable IMO, she was just stringing the coach along, using him to get what she wanted. 

Her voice and demeanor reminded me of Lena Horne.

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, TakomaSnark said:

Fingers crossed, @WendyCR72

I meant to edit before bed, but forgot: Seasons 3, 4, and 5 do oddly still have the notice, but if it came off the others, maybe it will there, too. Why some seasons would have a countdown clock and not others (and they did, a few days ago! Because I watched "Last Street In Manhattan", which had that little clock symbol, and now, it is absent from S10) is just weird.

Maybe it's about ironing out rights to each season, so bit by bit...

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Mad Hops before I fell asleep last night - it’s a good episode, I liked Goren’s basketball knowledge and I liked how they got to the bottom of the 2 murders and tied them to the coach. The woman the coach was in love with was unlikable IMO, she was just stringing the coach along, using him to get what she wanted. 

Like I said, Karen Watkins was an older version of Sarah Lindstrom in "Crazy" to me, except she led the coach on to help her kid. (At least, that's how I see it!)

Happy Easter today to those that celebrate - and a Happy Sunday to those that don't!

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I meant to edit before bed, but forgot: Seasons 3, 4, and 5 do oddly still have the notice, but if it came off the others, maybe it will there, too. Why some seasons would have a countdown clock and not others (and they did, a few days ago! Because I watched "Last Street In Manhattan", which had that little clock symbol, and now, it is absent from S10) is just weird.

Maybe it's about ironing out rights to each season, so bit by bit...

Like I said, Karen Watkins was an older version of Sarah Lindstrom in "Crazy" to me, except she led the coach on to help her kid. (At least, that's how I see it!)

Happy Easter today to those that celebrate - and a Happy Sunday to those that don't!

Yeah I see the similarities between Karen Watkins and Sarah Lindstrom as well - although I’ve never been able to really figure out what Sarah wanted from the obsessed Dr Webb in Crazy. Yes Karen led on the coach to help her kid, but why was Sarah leading on the doc when it was pretty clear she wasn’t attracted to him and the relationship wasn’t going anywhere? That’s the one part of Crazy that I’ve never been able to figure out.

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I see the similarities between Karen Watkins and Sarah Lindstrom as well - although I’ve never been able to really figure out what Sarah wanted from the obsessed Dr Webb in Crazy. Yes Karen led on the coach to help her kid, but why was Sarah leading on the doc when it was pretty clear she wasn’t attracted to him and the relationship wasn’t going anywhere? That’s the one part of Crazy that I’ve never been able to figure out.

Maybe a part of Sarah got off on the attention? Or she led him on long enough to get him involved in helping her awful sister, Julie, with her case against her equally-awful ex.

Remember, Sarah introduced Julie to Dr. Webb at the Bat Mitzvah, wanting Sophie to talk to him about her "abuse".

Of course, it backfired spectacularly, with Webb using it to try to score points with Sarah by offing the ex, to "save" Sophie from nonexistent abuse, which he knew was false per Sophie, but hey...

[peacheslatour]

It was a strange thing to see good old Steven Keaton as  such a revolting sex pest.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

It was a strange thing to see good old Steven Keaton as  such a revolting sex pest.

He also played Dr. John Carter's sort of remote/cold father, Jack Carter, on ER, too. And Jack's mother, Carter's grandmother, was played by Frances Sternhagen, best known as Cliff Clavin's mother on Cheers and as Charlotte's first mother-in-law on Sex and The City.

[wknt3]

22 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

He also played Dr. John Carter's sort of remote/cold father, Jack Carter, on ER, too. And Jack's mother, Carter's grandmother, was played by Frances Sternhagen, best known as Cliff Clavin's mother on Cheers and as Charlotte's first mother-in-law on Sex and The City.

Actually I would bet in this forum she is probably best known as Brenda's mom on The Closer and as Estelle Muller who hired a hitman to kill her former son-in-law on the mothership...

[WendyCR72]

39 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

Actually I would bet in this forum she is probably best known as Brenda's mom on The Closer and as Estelle Muller who hired a hitman to kill her former son-in-law on the mothership...

Touché! How I forgot Estelle Muller, I have no idea. But that was one twisted episode...

[TakomaSnark]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Touché! How I forgot Estelle Muller, I have no idea. But that was one twisted episode...

It's on WE right now!!!!

[WendyCR72]

Ah, "The Saint", a.k.a. Stephen Colbert dabbling in acting, has just started on WE.

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of which, I found an old video from 2016 with a Late Show Q&A Stephen Colbert did with the audience, and he talks about his Criminal Intent stint (after being asked about it!):

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=885391328272286

[WendyCR72]

And I found this linked somewhere with the Colbert stuff: VDO in an old interview with Colbert's buddy, Jon Stewart, prior to CI, as this is dated as being in 2000:

https://www.cc.com/video/c96yww/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-vincent-d-onofrio

[peacheslatour]

OMG, I love him even more now.  😍

[WendyCR72]

Been soaking in sun, so have not watched much of today's WE marathon, but I just saw as a heads up that it is airing until 9:00 p.m. tonight!

And the Mothership is in repeats for the next two weeks.

(Got up to 89 here today in upstate NY. YAY!)

[Shadow Lass]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Been soaking in sun, so have not watched much of today's WE marathon, but I just saw as a heads up that it is airing until 9:00 p.m. tonight!

And the Mothership is in repeats for the next two weeks.

(Got up to 89 here today in upstate NY. YAY!)

Yes, just switched it off to watch JEOPARDY. Got through "Magnificat." God, I want to beat the shit out of Doreen's husband. I hope Goren's friend saved Adam from his father.

Where are you in upstate NY? I fell in love with Lake George in my teens...

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Shadow Lass said:

Yes, just switched it off to watch JEOPARDY. Got through "Magnificat." God, I want to beat the shit out of Doreen's husband. I hope Goren's friend saved Adam from his father.

Where are you in upstate NY? I fell in love with Lake George in my teens...

Been to Lake George bunches! It's still thriving!

I am in the Albany/Troy area. (So the trips to Lake George are about an hour's drive!)

On another note, "Inert Dwarf", the last marathon episode, is just ending. How the hell did NO ONE see John Manotti faking his disease for DECADES?!

[WendyCR72]

So, I'm watching Blood & Money, a true crime Dick Wolf show (the title is even in the L&O font with a voice-over from the announcer like on the L&O shows...), and this episode focuses upon the infamous Robert Durst and the murder of his best friend, Susan Berman, a daughter of someone in the Jewish mafia.

I bring this up here because I'm thinking "Maledictus" from S1, the episode where the daughter of a Russian mobster was offed by her BFF [creepy Kenny!], is based on this Durst case because - like the fictitious case - Susan Berman had run through all her money (like the Russian daughter)  and had also once written a book [and was in the process of writing another!] and knew a lot about Durst and his (still never found) wife, Kathie, who disappeared in 1982 - and the police had expressed interest in talking to her.

Apparently, Durst had been giving Berman large sums of money for rent and such, and the thought is Berman was using what she knew about Durst's missing wife to have Robert Durst keep helping Susan Berman to maintain her lifestyle and such, and he may have grown tired of it and wanted to stop her from talking to the police...

Seems like there are parallels. And Susan Berman's murder happened on Christmas Eve 2000, so just under a year before Criminal Intent had debuted.

[Xeliou66]

17 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So, I'm watching Blood & Money, a true crime Dick Wolf show (the title is even in the L&O font with a voice-over from the announcer like on the L&O shows...), and this episode focuses upon the infamous Robert Durst and his murder of his best friend, Susan Berman, a daughter of someone in the Jewish mafia.

I bring this up here because I'm thinking "Maledictus" from S1, the episode where the daughter of a Russian mobster was offed by her BFF [creepy Kenny!], is based on this Durst case because - like the fictitious case - Susan Berman had run through all her money (like the Russian daughter)  and had also once written a book [and was in the process of writing another!] and knew a lot about Durst and his (still never found) wife, Kathie, who disappeared in 1982 - and the police had expressed interest in talking to her.

Apparently, Durst had been giving Berman large sums of money for rent and such, and the thought is Berman was using what she knew about Durst's missing wife to have Robert Durst keep helping Susan Berman to maintain her lifestyle and such, and he may have grown tired of it and wanted to stop her from talking to the police...

Seems like there are parallels. And Susan Berman's murder happened on Christmas Eve 2000, so just under a year before Criminal Intent had debuted.

The Durst story is one of the strangest crime stories ever - and it has inspired many crime fiction stories. An episode that was almost directly copied from the Durst case was the Mothership Season 14 episode Hands Free, everything about it was based on Durst. And yes there were parallels with the Durst case in CI’s Maledictus, and I think SVU has done a couple of episodes inspired by Durst as well. 

[peacheslatour]

Hands Free. I'm watching it right now. The actor playing the Durst character, Henry Stram is giving me the creeps. He's excellent.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Hands Free. I'm watching it right now. The actor playing the Durst character, Henry Stram is giving me the creeps. He's excellent.

I think there has to be a creep factor in any Durst-themed episodes. As I said, the actor playing Kenny in "Maledictus" had the creep factor in spades, too!

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think there has to be a creep factor in any Durst-themed episodes. As I said, the actor playing Kenny in "Maledictus" had the creep factor in spades, too!

Maledictus was really creepy, especially the relationship between Kenny and Martha, I wonder if there was incest there, it was really strange. I’ve always thought that Kenny poisoning his mom was a very sophisticated murder method for a young child though, I wasn’t sure if I bought that. 

[WendyCR72]

Ironic that I ran across this Rolling Stone article today, since his episode, "Three In One", had aired earlier today on Sundance.

F. Murray Abraham (a.k.a. Zack Nichols' father) has issues. Sigh.

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Acts of Contrition, good episode, but I was annoyed with Goren’s sympathy for Sister Olivia, I don’t care how remorseful she felt, she was involved in a brutal hate crime and deserved to go to prison for it, Carver was absolutely right the whole time about the case, that the truth needed to come out and Sister Olivia needed to be held accountable. I was glad that Goren came around and realized Carver was right in the end when he discovered Sister Olivia’s full involvement in the crime. I didn’t get why Goren sympathized so much with her. It is a strong episode though with a good investigation into the crime and I liked how they got to the bottom of the case. Eddie was one of the more sympathetic perps on CI but he lost some sympathy with me by trying to frame the mentally ill guy for the murder.

My favorite episode, In the Wee Small Hours, is on now, as I’ve said before, this 2 parter is just awesome. The Garrett family were as scummy as they come. So many great things about this episode - the 4 detectives working together, the typical privileged scummy family, the strong investigation, good roles for Carver and Deakins, legal stuff, the cameos from Arthur, etc.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Xeliou66

[peacheslatour]

Quote

My favorite episode, In the Wee Small Hours, is on now, as I’ve said before, this 2 parter is just awesome. The Garrett family were as scummy as they come. So many great things about this episode - the 4 detectives working together, the typical privileged scummy family, the strong investigation, good roles for Carver and Deakins, legal stuff, the cameos from Arthur, etc.

It's definitely in my top 10.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

It's definitely in my top 10.

It’s awesome from start to finish. Always enjoy catching it when it’s on. 
Just out of curiosity, what are some of your other top 10 CI episodes? It’s a tough question, I would have to think hard about it, but I know this one is my favorite.

[peacheslatour]

It's not too hard. In no particular order -

Poison

Zoonotic

Undaunted Mettle

In The Dark

The View From Up Here

Delicate

Palimpsest (I know this is an UO)

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

It's not too hard. In no particular order -

Poison

Zoonotic

Undaunted Mettle

In The Dark

The View From Up Here

Delicate

Palimpsest (I know this is an UO)

Interesting list, thanks! Yeah having Palimpsest on it is a very unpopular opinion, it would be near the bottom of my list of CI episodes. I like most of the others you named a lot - almost all of my favorite CI episodes come in seasons 1-5, very few come from after that although I do like the 8 season 10 episodes.

My favorites would be 

From Season 1 - Badge, Poison, The Good Doctor, Crazy, Smothered, The Third Horseman, Tuxedo Hill, hell I really like almost all season 1 episodes.

From Season 2 - Dead, See Me, Suite Sorrow, Tomorrow, Cherry Red, Baggage, Best Defense stand out amongst others. 

From Season 3 - But Not Forgotten, Mad Hops, Sound Bodies, Shrink Wrapped, DAW, Conscience are all excellent along with others. 

From Season 4 - I love most season 4 episodes, some of the best are View From Up Here, Beast, Death Roe, The Good Child, The Unblinking Eye, My Good Name, False Hearted Judges, In the Dark, Stress Position, like I said, I love almost all of season 4.

From Season 5 - Obviously In the Wee Small Hours is my favorite, I also really like Cruise to Nowhere, Saving Face, Watch, Unchained, Wrongful Life, Scared Crazy, most of season 5 is very good.

The show dropped off so much after season 5 that almost all of my favorites are from the first 5 seasons, some episodes that stand out from after season 5 that I like a lot are - from season 6, World’s Fair and Privileged, from season 7 I like the Logan/Falacci episodes pretty good, Senseless in particular is great, also Vanishing Act and Legacy and the last couple of Logan episodes were good IMO, even if I wish Logan’s departure had been done a bit differently, from season 8 I like Family Values and I like the 2 episodes with the Nichols/Eames partnership, Major Case and Revolution. Season 9 was very low energy but I like True Legacy and a couple of others from that season, and as I said before I like all of season 10.

I think 1 and 4 are my favorite seasons, but the first 5 are all great, there are only a few episodes I dislike from the first 5 seasons. So I agree with most of your episodes besides Palimpsest.