Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[WendyCR72]

On 5/6/2021 at 7:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

As I’ve said before this is arguably my favorite CI episode, it was just such an excellent 2 part episode. The Garrett family were excellent villains. I also love Goren’s confrontation with Judge Garrett, he did a great job of getting him to explode, and as I’ve said before I don’t think I would’ve been able to restrain myself if I were in Goren’s shoes, I would’ve completely understood if Goren had beaten Judge Perv to a bloody pulp, but Goren was able to keep control of himself and get Judge Perv to incriminate himself.

I also did like seeing Alex doing her best to protect Bobby. She knows how Bobby felt about his mom, she knew it was a sore topic in terms of his mother being mistreated, and she knew Bobby had a temper, so she sprung into action by calling Carver. Sort of a guardian angel in that sense.

Then there was the whole Madame LaFarge talk between Arthur Branch and Ron Carver. It was nice, as we have said, to see CI be tied to the rest of the franchise with that cameo (and also with Olivet in the same season). It happened infrequently, so it was nice when it actually happened.

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I also did like seeing Alex doing her best to protect Bobby. She knows how Bobby felt about his mom, she knew it was a sore topic in terms of his mother being mistreated, and she knew Bobby had a temper, so she sprung into action by calling Carver. Sort of a guardian angel in that sense.

Then there was the whole Madame LaFarge talk between Arthur Branch and Ron Carver. It was nice, as we have said, to see CI be tied to the rest of the franchise with that cameo (and also with Olivet in the same season). It happened infrequently, so it was nice when it actually happened.

I loved Branch’s appearance as well, it was nice to see him appear on the show. My favorite part of his cameo was when he tore up the original arrest warrant for the judge and got a new one with his signature on it, quipping that it would be “worth 2 points on election day”. I liked Arthur’s colorful personality, I know fans tend to be split on whether they liked him or not but I liked him. 

[peacheslatour]

6 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I also did like seeing Alex doing her best to protect Bobby. She knows how Bobby felt about his mom, she knew it was a sore topic in terms of his mother being mistreated, and she knew Bobby had a temper, so she sprung into action by calling Carver. Sort of a guardian angel in that sense.

Then there was the whole Madame LaFarge talk between Arthur Branch and Ron Carver. It was nice, as we have said, to see CI be tied to the rest of the franchise with that cameo (and also with Olivet in the same season). It happened infrequently, so it was nice when it actually happened.

I loved it when Branch tore up the arrest warrant, pulled another one

 

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

I loved Branch’s appearance as well, it was nice to see him appear on the show. My favorite part of his cameo was when he tore up the original arrest warrant for the judge and got a new one with his signature on it, quipping that it would be “worth 2 points on election day”. I liked Arthur’s colorful personality, I know fans tend to be split on whether they liked him or not but I liked him. 

I liked him that day. He was a pragmatist but he backed up his people.

[WendyCR72]

Yeah, Arthur issuing an arrest warrant with his name on it was a nice added touch, even if he did do it because it was an election year. At least he was upfront about it!  😊

[Dirtybubble]

On 5/6/2021 at 7:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

 

As I’ve said before this is arguably my favorite CI episode, it was just such an excellent 2 part episode. The Garrett family were excellent villains. I also love Goren’s confrontation with Judge Garrett, he did a great job of getting him to explode, and as I’ve said before I don’t think I would’ve been able to restrain myself if I were in Goren’s shoes, I would’ve completely understood if Goren had beaten Judge Perv to a bloody pulp, but Goren was able to keep control of himself and get Judge Perv to incriminate himself.

So many good moments in that episode.

These episodes are my fav as well.  As a Star Trek fan I was super excited to see Colm Meaney in this role!  He's pretty good at playing a villain (Con Air).  I think he just has one of those faces.  =D

[peacheslatour]

56 minutes ago, Dirtybubble said:

These episodes are my fav as well.  As a Star Trek fan I was super excited to see Colm Meaney in this role!  He's pretty good at playing a villain (Con Air).  I think he just has one of those faces.  =D

Not intended as an insult at all but I always think of him as the poor man's Gene Hackman.

[Sigmagirl]

Am I missing something? How did Simon Fife know about the sesame logs?

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, Sigmagirl said:

Am I missing something? How did Simon Fife know about the sesame logs?

It was some convoluted deal involving the neighbor kid and his dad who I guess wrote book about the murder and had been emailing Simon for backround material and he blabbed about the candy.

[WendyCR72]

14 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

These episodes are my fav as well.  As a Star Trek fan I was super excited to see Colm Meaney in this role!  He's pretty good at playing a villain (Con Air).  I think he just has one of those faces.  =D

Colm Meany had also worked with Vincent D'Onofrio in the movie, Claire Dolan, back in the '90s, too. And Matt Damon had one of his very first (uncredited) roles in Mystic Pizza, another movie that VDO was in.

So it seems like some that worked with him in movies seemed willing to do CI (even though Damon's role only involved his voice in "The Unblinking Eye" in S4!).

[peacheslatour]

9 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Colm Meany had also worked with Vincent D'Onofrio in the movie, Claire Dolan, back in the '90s, too. And Matt Damon had one of his very first (uncredited) roles in Mystic Pizza, another movie that VDO was in.

So it seems like some that worked with him in movies seemed willing to do CI (even though Damon's role only involved his voice in "The Unblinking Eye" in S4!).

Was he the director when Ed kept fluffing his lines?

[Xeliou66]

Vacancy was on today, I think this is one episode where the first half was a lot better than the second half - the first half was really good IMO, I love the creepy cold open in the dumpy motel, that was memorable, and then Goren and Eames investigating and tracking the killer, but then the second half of the episode just dropped off IMO, it lacked the intrigue of the first half, and I didn’t really get why Rainey killed Megan, all I got was that Rainey was a real sicko who was screwed up by the murder of his mom and wanted to discover his inner self, but I just didn’t think it made much sense for him to kill Megan.

And Goren and Eames talked to Rainey and got his confession without his lawyer present, and I wondered if that made the confession inadmissible?

So while I like the first part of the episode the ending just wasn’t great, and it just seemed like something was missing regarding Rainey’s motive, I guess he was just a sicko fascinated by getting inside a killer’s mind and became a killer.

[WendyCR72]

7 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Was he the director when Ed kept fluffing his lines?

Not the director. It was Matt Damon as Matt Damon. (Although there was another voice doing "Take [whatever number]", too.)  Ed even called him "Mr. Damon" in one of his flubs.

[WendyCR72]

I get Jamey Sheridan wanted to leave, but in actuality? Deakins should've fought the charges Frank Adair had framed him with. G/E were certainly finding inconsistencies in the so-called crooked e-mails Deakins was alleged to have sent.

On another note, "On Fire" is on now with Glenn and his mother and half-brother/father. Man, what a messed up bunch of people in that one. No wonder poor old Margaret didn't want to be near Justin.

But that brings up a question: Glenn's mother mentioned confessing to the priest/pastor. Fine. But that is always confidential. (Take it from a lapsed Catholic girl!) So how the hell did Margaret discover that secret, enough to send Glenn (the "Glenn Peed" letter!) the letter about it?!

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And Goren and Eames talked to Rainey and got his confession without his lawyer present, and I wondered if that made the confession inadmissible?

Maybe, but by the end of the confession, Rainey seemed contrite at hurting Megan, so maybe he would have pleaded out, anyway. The fact that old memories from his mom being stalked reawakened old [albeit then-childish] rage was interesting. But the execution (pardon the pun!) seemed to lack, a bit.

[Xeliou66]

28 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I get Jamey Sheridan wanted to leave, but in actuality? Deakins should've fought the charges Frank Adair had framed him with. G/E were certainly finding inconsistencies in the so-called crooked e-mails Deakins was alleged to have sent.

On another note, "On Fire" is on now with Glenn and his mother and half-brother/father. Man, what a messed up bunch of people in that one. No wonder poor old Margaret didn't want to be near Justin.

But that brings up a question: Glenn's mother mentioned confessing to the priest/pastor. Fine. But that is always confidential. (Take it from a lapsed Catholic girl!) So how the hell did Margaret discover that secret, enough to send Glenn (the "Glenn Peed" letter!) the letter about it?!

Maybe, but by the end of the confession, Rainey seemed contrite at hurting Megan, so maybe he would have pleaded out, anyway. The fact that old memories from his mom being stalked reawakened old [albeit then-childish] rage was interesting. But the execution (pardon the pun!) seemed to lack, a bit.

Yeah maybe Rainey would’ve pleaded guilty, but I just thought since he was represented by counsel it was odd that Goren and Eames talked to him and got his confession without his lawyer present. And did anyone else think Carver seemed in a really foul mood in that episode? He didn’t have much of a role (neither did Deakins) but he seemed real surly in Vacancy. I agree that the episode had a lot of potential but the ending just didn’t quite deliver IMO, and left me a bit confused about why exactly Rained acted as he did.

As for On Fire - you’re right about what a screwed up bunch of people there were in that episode. That family was 100% dysfunctional. None of them were remotely sympathetic. And I have no idea either how Margaret knew about Justin being Glenn’s father either.

About Deakins leaving, his exit left a bad taste in my mouth as well, he could’ve fought Adair and exposed Adair and his cronies setting him up. I get he didn’t want his detectives or Officer Martinez to get dragged into the mess and possibly smeared, but I think he could’ve successfully fought Adair. I wish they had come up with a different exit for Deakins. And I will say again how disappointed I am that Goren and Eames weren’t in Deakins’ final episode, I really wish they had been in the squadroom when he left at the end to tell him goodbye, he should’ve gotten a final scene with them. 

[peacheslatour]

13 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah maybe Rainey would’ve pleaded guilty, but I just thought since he was represented by counsel it was odd that Goren and Eames talked to him and got his confession without his lawyer present. And did anyone else think Carver seemed in a really foul mood in that episode? He didn’t have much of a role (neither did Deakins) but he seemed real surly in Vacancy. I agree that the episode had a lot of potential but the ending just didn’t quite deliver IMO, and left me a bit confused about why exactly Rained acted as he did.

As for On Fire - you’re right about what a screwed up bunch of people there were in that episode. That family was 100% dysfunctional. None of them were remotely sympathetic. And I have no idea either how Margaret knew about Justin being Glenn’s father either.

About Deakins leaving, his exit left a bad taste in my mouth as well, he could’ve fought Adair and exposed Adair and his cronies setting him up. I get he didn’t want his detectives or Officer Martinez to get dragged into the mess and possibly smeared, but I think he could’ve successfully fought Adair. I wish they had come up with a different exit for Deakins. And I will say again how disappointed I am that Goren and Eames weren’t in Deakins’ final episode, I really wish they had been in the squadroom when he left at the end to tell him goodbye, he should’ve gotten a final scene with them. 

There was an episode of Murdoch Mysteries where some Adair type was trying to force the Inspector out because it was discovered that he had a black daughter from a previous relationship and every constable and detective in the precinct stood up and took off his badge. The guy had to back down and it made for very satisfying television. Not Dick Wolf's style, I guess.

[WendyCR72]

24 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I really wish they had been in the squadroom when he left at the end to tell him goodbye, he should’ve gotten a final scene with them. 

I think that, when Deakins tells G/E that he resigned, that is what that scene was explicitly for, what with Deakins calling G/E "his good detectives" and such. But, yeah, would have been nice to have both G/E and L/B on screen for Deakins' last hurrah.

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I think that, when Deakins tells G/E that he resigned, that is what that scene was explicitly for, what with Deakins calling G/E "his good detectives" and such. But, yeah, would have been nice to have both G/E and L/B on screen for Deakins' last hurrah.

Yes I think that scene was meant to be his goodbye scene, but I still thought it would’ve been nice for Goren/Eames to be in the squadroom when Deakins left for the last time to tell him goodbye, it felt weird him leaving the squadroom without them there. I did his goodbye with Logan and with Carver, it was the warmest Carver ever was with any of the other characters I think and interestingly enough it was Carver’s last scene as well.

[WendyCR72]

The final Bobby/Jo scene from "Blind Spot" is on as I type. Keep saying it, but VDO's simple facial expressions were so on the mark, there. Like when Jo says she planned to kill Eames, and Bobby just closes his eyes.

Ditto the scene where Bobby/Capt. Douchebag Ross find the stranger in Eames' car trunk, when trying to prepare themselves for finding Eames herself.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes I think that scene was meant to be his goodbye scene, but I still thought it would’ve been nice for Goren/Eames to be in the squadroom when Deakins left for the last time to tell him goodbye, it felt weird him leaving the squadroom without them there. I did his goodbye with Logan and with Carver, it was the warmest Carver ever was with any of the other characters I think and interestingly enough it was Carver’s last scene as well.

I don't recall, as it has been ages now, but I wonder if it was known that CBV was leaving when this was filmed? Because it seems odd how Deakins got a real exit after five seasons and Carver didn't.

Maybe CBV announced it over the summer between seasons 5 and 6? Either way, he got a raw deal, especially since Carver only merited a one-liner in "Tru Love" (which just aired, actually, on Sundance!) in terms of his departure - and not even about his exit, just a quip about a nickname he gave to Major Case.

[Xeliou66]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I don't recall, as it has been ages now, but I wonder if it was known that CBV was leaving when this was filmed? Because it seems odd how Deakins got a real exit after five seasons and Carver didn't.

Maybe CBV announced it over the summer between seasons 5 and 6? Either way, he got a raw deal, especially since Carver only merited a one-liner in "Tru Love" (which just aired, actually, on Sundance!) in terms of his departure - and not even about his exit, just a quip about a nickname he gave to Major Case.

It really pissed me off how they didn’t explain Carver’s departure, Carver was underrated and underused, just like Deakins was. I like to think Carver went on to become a judge, he would’ve made an excellent judge IMO. 

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

It really pissed me off how they didn’t explain Carver’s departure, Carver was underrated and underused, just like Deakins was. I like to think Carver went on to become a judge, he would’ve made an excellent judge IMO. 

Hey, worked for Jamie Ross! (Wonder if Jamie was related to Danny Ross? More likely, just the usual name recycling!)

On another note, now comes "Bedfellows" with the late Rip Torn and his fixation on son Adlai and all but ignoring Ted. And yet another actor that acted with VDO before, in their case, Men In Black. (Where VDO played a giant bug in an Edgar suit! You had to see it/ be there. LOL!)

[Dirtybubble]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The final Bobby/Jo scene from "Blind Spot" is on as I type. Keep saying it, but VDO's simple facial expressions were so on the mark, there. Like when Jo says she planned to kill Eames, and Bobby just closes his eyes.

If I've said it once I've said it 100 times--it's that jerkwad Declan Gage's fault as it is Jo's! 

It really is a weird spot for Goren to be in because not only is his partner Eames nearly killed he had to have wondered if all of this could have been prevented is Declan wasn't such an absentee father (like his dad was).  The final scene of Goren looking thru the glass at his mentor/friend/2nd father was just everything.

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Ditto the scene where Bobby/Capt. Douchebag Ross find the stranger in Eames' car trunk, when trying to prepare themselves for finding Eames herself.

Hahaha I must be the only person on the planet who like Ross.  True he could be rough with Goren but in honestly Goren didn't make things any easier.  Enh, I think Ross did the best he could.  *shrug* IMHO

[peacheslatour]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Hey, worked for Jamie Ross! (Wonder if Jamie was related to Danny Ross? More likely, just the usual name recycling!)

On another note, now comes "Bedfellows" with the late Rip Torn and his fixation on son Adlai and all but ignoring Ted. And yet another actor that acted with VDO before, in their case, Men In Black. (Where VDO played a giant bug in an Edgar suit! You had to see it/ be there. LOL!)

I've seen it. The way he moves in that role is a master class in acting.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

Hahaha I must be the only person on the planet who like Ross.  True he could be rough with Goren but in honestly Goren didn't make things any easier.  Enh, I think Ross did the best he could.  *shrug* IMHO

Hey, we like who we like! No worries.  😎

But the way I personally see it, Ross started the whole conflict from Day One, telling Eames to watch Goren, then yelling his head off at Goren with regard to Gage. Soooo...  *shrug*

He "set the tone" (to borrow from ER), so it doesn't shock me that Goren responded in kind.

[Xeliou66]

Ross is arguably my least favorite main character in the entire L&O franchise - he was such an unpleasant, obnoxious douche. I felt nothing when he bit the dust in the season 9 premiere. Deakins was so much better than Ross as a squad leader, and I think Deakins is underrated and under appreciated, and he never got nearly as much screentime as Ross. 

[WendyCR72]

49 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Ross is arguably my least favorite main character in the entire L&O franchise - he was such an unpleasant, obnoxious douche. I felt nothing when he bit the dust in the season 9 premiere. Deakins was so much better than Ross as a squad leader, and I think Deakins is underrated and under appreciated, and he never got nearly as much screentime as Ross. 

I liked Deakins, too. And I think Joe Hannah in his one season (S10) was also good. He pressed when needed but otherwise left Goren/Eames to their own devices. Those that rule with a lighter touch seem to be more successful at it, IMO.

[Xeliou66]

44 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I liked Deakins, too. And I think Joe Hannah in his one season (S10) was also good. He pressed when needed but otherwise left Goren/Eames to their own devices. Those that rule with a lighter touch seem to be more successful at it, IMO.

I liked Joe Hannah a lot as well, he was similar to Deakins in his leadership style and he had a rather colorful personality. I also liked his connection to Goren, note how Goren called him by his first name a couple of times, something he never did with the prior captains (we’ve talked before about how first names were rarely used on this show). Zoe Callas in season 9 was so bland and unmemorable I don’t have much of an opinion on her.

[WendyCR72]

42 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Zoe Callas in season 9 was so bland and unmemorable I don’t have much of an opinion on her.

Which was kind of a waste as Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio seems like a good actress, but it didn't help that she had low-energy Nichols and Stevens to play off of, so she was doomed.

The fact that all she did was make comments about the cases or her Greek heritage didn't do her any favors.

[Dirtybubble]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Zoe Callas in season 9 was so bland and unmemorable I don’t have much of an opinion on her.

 

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Which was kind of a waste as Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio seems like a good actress, but it didn't help that she had low-energy Nichols and Stevens to play off of, so she was doomed.

ITA!  Season 9 is the worst season for me.  No Goren, no Eames, boring Capt. Callas, and good grief Jeff Goldblum UGH!

 

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

 

ITA!  Season 9 is the worst season for me.  No Goren, no Eames, boring Capt. Callas, and good grief Jeff Goldblum UGH!

 

Season 9 definitely wasn’t great, but season 6 is my least favorite season - a ton of soapy drama with the detectives, Ross the Douche as Captain, and the cases were pretty weak for the most part, not much meat on them. Such a drop off from seasons 1-5. But I don’t care for 9 either, the cast was rather dull but there wasn’t much soapy drama and the cases were okay (aside from the awful Palimpsest episode).

[peacheslatour]

56 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 9 definitely wasn’t great, but season 6 is my least favorite season - a ton of soapy drama with the detectives, Ross the Douche as Captain, and the cases were pretty weak for the most part, not much meat on them. Such a drop off from seasons 1-5. But I don’t care for 9 either, the cast was rather dull but there wasn’t much soapy drama and the cases were okay (aside from the awful Palimpsest episode).

I really like Jeff Goldblum but he was terribly miscast in this show. The stories they gave him would have been so much better in the hands of the OG's - Goren and Eames.

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 9 definitely wasn’t great, but season 6 is my least favorite season - a ton of soapy drama with the detectives, Ross the Douche as Captain, and the cases were pretty weak for the most part, not much meat on them. Such a drop off from seasons 1-5. But I don’t care for 9 either, the cast was rather dull but there wasn’t much soapy drama and the cases were okay (aside from the awful Palimpsest episode).

I know you disliked S6.  😉

I liked it well enough. Yeah, it got off the mostly-cases framework. But I like exploring the actual characters. Otherwise, they just seem like interchangeable cardboard cutouts, to me. So I was good with it. And I love Rita Moreno. Sooo...

Long way of saying, I agree with @Dirtybubble and that S9 was the worst Criminal Intent season. 😛

[WendyCR72]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I really like Jeff Goldblum but he was terribly miscast in this show. The stories they gave him would have been so much better in the hands of the OG's - Goren and Eames.

Goldblum was involved in a quirky (naturally!) detective drama on ABC around 2007 called Raines, a detective seen as odd (gee, that's familiar: Hi, Goren!) but "sees" his dead victims, who gave him insight into their murders. (He even also had to see the police shrink.)

Alas, it lasted only 8 episodes. But I think that show was a better fit for Jeff Goldblum than Criminal Intent was.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Goldblum was involved in a quirky (naturally!) detective drama on ABC around 2007 called Raines, a detective seen as odd (gee, that's familiar: Hi, Goren!) but "sees" his dead victims, who gave him insight into their murders. (He even also had to see the police shrink.)

Alas, it lasted only 8 episodes. But I think that show was a better fit for Jeff Goldblum than Criminal Intent was.

He was also, back when I was hanging out with Betsy Ross, in a show called Tenspeed and Brownshoe with Jeff as Brownshoe and Ben Vereen as Tenspeed. The were private dicks in L.A. IIRC, it was pretty good.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

He was also, back when I was hanging out with Betsy Ross, in a show called Tenspeed and Brownshoe with Jeff as Brownshoe and Ben Vereen as Tenspeed. The were private dicks in L.A. IIRC, it was pretty good.

I looked that up a while back. It was on in the spring of 1980, so I was a mere 7, going on 8. I obviously never watched it, but Amazon has the DVD of it. I know Ben Vereen did a guest role on CI in "Senseless" in S7 as a pastor and father of one of the murdered college kids.

Had it been one season later, he could have been reunited with Jeff Goldblum.

Although Ben Vereen did end up as the first captain, Captain Ben "Hutch" Hutchinson, on Silk Stalkings in 1991. (In between S1 and S2 of that show, he had his serious car accident and was forced to leave as he needed to recuperate. He popped up in S2 for a handful of episodes before he left permanently.)

[WendyCR72]

Still wish Joan Jett had a bigger role in "Reunion". (Ending now on WE.) Intrigued to see how she would have played things out for Sylvia. But I guess being paid to basically play a corpse is a cushy gig in itself!

Next is "Vanishing Act". Love that one and VDO seemed to have such fun, as we've discussed before. Love the bit with the Naked Cowboy at the beginning. Years and years ago, my brother took a trip to NYC, and Naked Cowboy was in some of the photos.

[WendyCR72]

Watching the weekly Sundance marathon. "Albatross" is airing now and I must say that Xander Berkeley seems to play the sleazy politician hubby with an almost sort of glee.

He really seemed to have a good time with it.

[Xeliou66]

Season 6, my least favorite season, is on Sundance today, I’ve discussed previously why I don’t care for this season, I did see my favorite episode of the season, World’s Fair, today, that episode is really good, I liked the case a lot and I liked seeing fiery, passionate Logan.

There were a slew of unlikable characters in that episode, really no one except the 2 victims were likable, the brother/killer was despicable, the father wasn’t much better, the mom wasn’t very sympathetic either, and the mom and uncle of the boyfriend/second victim were narrow minded and bigoted as well. And the boyfriend Rudy was really dumb to go by himself to see his girlfriend’s family, knowing they hated him.

I think this episode has the feel of more of a classic seasons 1-5 CI, with a meatier case and no personal drama. I also liked the scenery in it, good use of the Unisphere as the murder scene and scene of the arrest. 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Xeliou66

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 6, my least favorite season, is on Sundance today, I’ve discussed previously why I don’t care for this season, I did see my favorite episode of the season, World’s Fair, today, that episode is really good, I liked the case a lot and I liked seeing fiery, passionate Logan.

There were a slew of unlikable characters in that episode, really no one except the 2 victims were likable, the brother/killer was despicable, the father wasn’t much better, the mom wasn’t very sympathetic either, and the mom and uncle of the boyfriend/second victim were narrow minded and bigoted as well. And the boyfriend Rudy was really dumb to go by himself to see his girlfriend’s family, knowing they hated him.

I think this episode has the feel of more of a classic seasons 1-5 CI, with a meatier case and no personal drama. I also liked the scenery in it, good use of the Unisphere as the murder scene and scene of the arrest. 

 

"World's Fair" was so depressing for all the reasons you said. No one was likable. It was one of the few episodes where I hoped a giant meteor would take out all of these repulsive people.

Only Rudy and Meera (that was her name, right?), the actual victims, came off as sympathetic. Patti D'Arbanville (who played Rudy's awful mother) seemed to pop up enough in the franchise! Also remember her from the Mothership, from a Ceretta episode, as some witch that ran a sweatshop. She was also on New York Undercover, as a police captain. It was another Wolf show.

[WendyCR72]

It really is something when you watch the show on different stations (especially if it is back to back) and realize just how much this show evolved from S1. And especially when going from, say, a Nichols/Stevens episode to a Goren/Eames episode.

WE was in the midst of S9 yesterday and no matter how I try, it is still so...I don't know...slow, to me, compared to the other seasons.

[Xeliou66]

9 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

It really is something when you watch the show on different stations (especially if it is back to back) and realize just how much this show evolved from S1. And especially when going from, say, a Nichols/Stevens episode to a Goren/Eames episode.

WE was in the midst of S9 yesterday and no matter how I try, it is still so...I don't know...slow, to me, compared to the other seasons.

Season 9 was slow and very low energy - while Nichols was an okay character, he was a bit low key, and Stevens and Callas were just dull. While I liked some of the cases, the show definitely was low energy in season 9.

I still prefer 9 to season 6 for the most part, mainly because 6 was so incredibly soapy, I hated what they did to the show then, and the cases had no meat on them.

[WendyCR72]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 9 was slow and very low energy - while Nichols was an okay character, he was a bit low key, and Stevens and Callas were just dull. While I liked some of the cases, the show definitely was low energy in season 9.

I still prefer 9 to season 6 for the most part, mainly because 6 was so incredibly soapy, I hated what they did to the show then, and the cases had no meat on them.

Agree to disagree about S9 versus S6. 😎

Maybe if Nichols had a partner with some fire in them to play off of, things could have been a bit more interesting to watch, but probably not!

[Devonte Huntley]

On 1/30/2019 at 8:19 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Agreed that SVU was more closely tied to the Mothership, but CI had plenty of connections to it as well. Aside from Rodgers, of course we had Logan who was a Mothership character first, we had Briscoe and Green appear in Poison, we had Van Buren appear in Badge, we had Lewin appear in One, Branch in In The Wee Small Hours, Skoda in Crazy and in a deleted scene in Tomorrow, and Olivet in To The Bone.

Plus we had minor characters that crossed over: the aforementioned Arlene Shrier, Danielle Melnick in the one scene in the serious finale, defense attorney Peter Behrens in Suite Sorrow, the judge in Stress Position and Chinoiserie and probably a couple of others. 

There were also some references to other characters: Lewin, Branch and McCoy were referenced multiple times, Deakins talked to Van Buren on the phone in Stress Position, Briscoe was referenced a couple of times by Logan.

I agree that there weren’t as many ties in as SVU but there was still a lot of continuity.

Criminal Intent just seemed far more distant. There were times I felt like there should have been way more crossovers especially when they bring up rape cases and SVU was never involved. The DA barely appeared whereas on SVU they appeared multiple times. Many of the psychiatrists on L&O only had rare appearances. Besides, the roles of Logan and Rodgers, CI was really the red-headed step-child of the bunch. It didn't even have a two-parter with any of the other shows (other than ITSELF in Seasons 5 and 9). TRIAL BY JURY managed to have TWO of them with L&O and SVU in it's short 13-episode run and unfortunately didn't interact with CI and vice-versa at all. Like what is with CI being kept from crossing over with the other spinoffs besides the parent show? I don't get it. 

But speaking in crossovers in general, the franchise really lacked on it especially over the years in the 2000s. SVU started off strong with L&O and then over time became distant as well. There were years passing and no crossovers. It's like, they do realize these shows are set in the same area right? Not just the same city but the SAME ISLAND? You'd think we'd see more interaction more like we'd see on the CHICAGO shows which are constantly intertwining like clockwork you'd almost have to watch EVERY SHOW to keep up with the appearances and relationships that overlap. Some one on one show is dating some one on another, or some one on one show is the brother/sister of some one on another show. Why couldn't the L&O franchise be given this treatment? Thankfully Wolf is correcting his L&O mistake with Chicago franchise to avoid making them so distant, but it's ironic because Chicago is a way bigger area than Manhattan and yet it almost seems like the Chicago shows are set on a small island rather than a big city itself. 

I am baffled by how SVU and CI never crossed over. HOW??? The shows spend six years on the air together and NOTHING? After CI's move to the USA Network, any L&O connection was done. The show became TOO distant it's like they were best off having Goren and Eames relocate to Los Angeles or something.

I can't stomach how different CI was which is why I couldn't really get invested in it except for when it was in it's seventh, eighth, and tenth seasons during their initial airings (I've been binging some episodes sporadically recently). Apart from the lack of crossover connections which you could feel the makers weren't really wanting to do them by how little they were, the show was just jacked up with it's constant casting changes, the teams alternating, the removal of the famous L&O scene cards from Seasons 6-8 and the shift in style and tone in that era too, characters leaving and their absence not being addressed, etc. just a mess like they didn't know what or how to handle this show. And some how it managed to last ten seasons....

Detective Bishop (Goren's partner in Season 3 while Eames was away) could have returned to be paired with Logan in Season 5. Why even bring on Barek? No offense, I like Barek but you already have an established detective character who could have been put to some use again part-time again. Nola Fallacci could have returned as Nichols' partner in Season 9 instead of bringing in Serena Stevens who was so bland and meaningless and she was suppose to be from CHICAGO? Yeah, the actress is British. Why not just have her be from England? I actually found Nola to be cool and it sucks she only had that temporary stint. Or better yet, she could have been Wheeler's partner. You'd think L&O was ready for two female lead detectives with a female captain on top of it? Hmm....

A perfect opportunity for the show to interact with Law & Order: UK was when Nichols went to visit London and was telling that story to whoever that woman was, who could have been changed to be one of the main characters of THAT series. Missed opportunity. I still wonder if that show is even part of the franchise in the same universe or just a foreign adaption that takes place in it's own world. 

Oh and Nicole Wallace is still out there according to that 2013 French series JO made by one of the CI producers. I think it's neat they did that episode that ties back to a whole other show in a different country like the USA and rare because many JO fans probably wouldn't know what the hell is going on not being familiar with CI. I'm glad they didn't let that silly supposed death of hers in Season 7 be the end all be all because it happened off-screen and thus took away any real impact of a farewell for her. I haven't seen the JO episode and been looking for it everywhere, but it doesn't address the heart issue since that was Nicole's heart in the box. My guess? She had a transplant. But Nicole is still on the run, I tweeted to Julie Martin hoping to see them utilize her on SVU or even Organized Crime and bring in Goren to deal with her again. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[Xeliou66]

I agree with some of your points about CI - it’s really a shame they never crossed over more with the other shows, because I enjoyed the crossovers and seeing the various characters interact. That being said, I hate Wolf’s Chicago shows because they are soap operas first and foremost with more emphasis on personal lives than on the characters work, I don’t watch them much but I agree that they do a better job with crossovers, I wish they had done more on the L&O shows. Too much crossover can ruin a show but they should’ve done more, especially with CI, it’s a shame CI and SVU never crossed over and that more characters from the Mothership didn’t crossover to CI.

To address a few of your other points - I don’t think L&O UK exists in the same universe as the rest, because their cases are all adaptations of Mothership cases, sometimes using the exact same names for the characters and exact same plot. So they can’t exist in the same universe.

I liked Nola Falacci as well, I thought she had a spark about her that made her episodes more interesting than the Wheeler episodes, Wheeler never did much for me, and I found Bishop beyond dull, she was so unmemorable and vapid that I’m glad they never brought her back. Agreed about Serena Stevens being very dull.

And please for the love of god do not bring Nicole Wallace back!!!! Please do not give Warren Leight and Julie Martin any ideas. I HATE the Nicole storyline, and I frankly don’t give a shit if Nicole’s alive or dead I just never want to see her again, and I really don’t want her on SVU which is already soapy and melodramatic enough and I never want the SVU writers to have anything to do with Goren or Eames again.

[Devonte Huntley]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree with some of your points about CI - it’s really a shame they never crossed over more with the other shows, because I enjoyed the crossovers and seeing the various characters interact. That being said, I hate Wolf’s Chicago shows because they are soap operas first and foremost with more emphasis on personal lives than on the characters work, I don’t watch them much but I agree that they do a better job with crossovers, I wish they had done more on the L&O shows. Too much crossover can ruin a show but they should’ve done more, especially with CI, it’s a shame CI and SVU never crossed over and that more characters from the Mothership didn’t crossover to CI.

To address a few of your other points - I don’t think L&O UK exists in the same universe as the rest, because their cases are all adaptations of Mothership cases, sometimes using the exact same names for the characters and exact same plot. So they can’t exist in the same universe.

I liked Nola Falacci as well, I thought she had a spark about her that made her episodes more interesting than the Wheeler episodes, Wheeler never did much for me, and I found Bishop beyond dull, she was so unmemorable and vapid that I’m glad they never brought her back. Agreed about Serena Stevens being very dull.

And please for the love of god do not bring Nicole Wallace back!!!! Please do not give Warren Leight and Julie Martin any ideas. I HATE the Nicole storyline, and I frankly don’t give a shit if Nicole’s alive or dead I just never want to see her again, and I really don’t want her on SVU which is already soapy and melodramatic enough and I never want the SVU writers to have anything to do with Goren or Eames again.

The Chicago shows were meant to be personal stories. That's sort of what helps separate them from the L&O shows (apart from SVU). I like it when the shows do this because the actors get to feel a personal touch with the shows and thus may want to stick on longer. Many of the L&O actors left because it was just too story-driven and thus it was like the characters are only there to help tell a story and never really BEING one. George Dzunda was having none of it and ditched after Season 1.

I like it when L&O broke protocol with it's traditional format and some episodes did feature personal stories. But it makes sense why this choice was made because it's rather hard to do personal storylines when you have to tell a police investigation and a trial process in 21 minute blocks each and there's already a lot to cram in. This is why SVU and CI could do it more when they did because it wasn't half-and-half like L&O, the police investigations were more focal and not heavily reliant on the "Order" side of things so they could get away with this. I always felt like L&O should have been a 90 minute show. That would probably mean less episodes, but at least we'd get some more personal time with the characters outside of work so we see more of them than just work all the time. 

Okay, so UK doesn't take place in the same world. Bummer. And how LAZY of them to do that like make up your own material. They were only doing like 13 episodes a year and they had to recycle material from another show? Pitiful. A missed opportunity to actually connect the shows together from across the ocean. 

I have to re-watch the Bishop episodes because she did come off a bit bland from what I recall, almost Scully-like from X-Files (and resembled her too), but I'm sure she was far more invested than Serena Stevens. I think she just needed more time to grow and perhaps a return could have done that for her. 

As far as Nicole goes, I loved her arc. It broke the show's traditional format and gave us a recurring nemesis that could out-smart the cops and constantly be on the move than the typical "crime happens, police investigate, bad guy gets captured at the end, the end" scenario. I'm surprised René Balcer had input on the show JO because he is not French, unless he has it mixed somewhere in his Canadian heritage because I know he's from Canada and Canada has some settlement ties to France. I don't know. But I don't mind Nicole and if she was resurrected, then I'd like to see more of her and perhaps be given a proper send-off that's ON-SCREEN. That off-screen thing they did with CI is not going to cut it with me.

And why don't you want to see Goren and Eames on SVU? It'll definitely make up the NO crossovers CI and SVU didn't have and already saw Eames twice so Goren showing up would be a treat to see what he's been up for all this time. It's been ten years now. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[WendyCR72]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And please for the love of god do not bring Nicole Wallace back!!!! Please do not give Warren Leight and Julie Martin any ideas. I HATE the Nicole storyline, and I frankly don’t give a shit if Nicole’s alive or dead I just never want to see her again

Co-sign. Nicole was just the law of diminishing returns every time she showed her face. This wasn't South Park, where Kenny gets killed every week for laughs. At some point, Nicole either had to be caught for her crimes or die. The constant stretching used to prolong her inexplicable freedom became more and more ridiculous as time passed. NBC really should have let the character go in S4, as seemed to be the case based on the bonus material, instead of doing an audience poll and making another ending, which sadly ended up being used to keep Nicole around.

CI is my favorite spinoff of the bunch. Maybe it makes me odd, but I liked that CI wasn't all action and more cerebral. I know that some classify that to be boring, but...yeah.

And the alternating casts, I think, while inescapable due to VDO's exhaustion, brought different elements to the series. While I did like G/E best, I liked Logan. As I said before, I'm just sad he never had his "Eames", so to speak. Eames went to the mat many times for Goren. Logan never truly had that.

I do recall - as discussed many times over here, that CI was rumored to debut via a 3-way crossover with the Mothership and SVU with some terrorist plot. It was understandably scuttled when 9/11 occurred. Still, as I said, I do wish the idea of a crossover - perhaps with a different case - could have been done. I guess having Logan and Rodgers was considered enough of a connection to the franchise. Them, and the glimpses of Briscoe, Green, Skoda, Branch, Lewin, and Olivet, whom I would have liked to see more of [minus Lewin since she left, obviously, and Briscoe, since Jerry Orbach sadly passed away!].

I know VDO did rave about Julia Ormond (Dr. Paula Gyson), and she was good. But I never understood just why Skoda or Olivet could not have been one of the shrinks Goren visited. Another franchise connection opportunity ignored.

Still, for its flaws, I think CI had its own charm and groove, so to speak. And just maybe being less tied to the franchise gave it a bit more freedom to follow its own path.

[WendyCR72]

58 minutes ago, Devonte Huntley said:

Okay, so UK doesn't take place in the same world. Bummer. And how LAZY of them to do that like make up your own material.

Not their fault. They were contractually obligated to reuse old American episodes. Why, I don't know. But that was a stipulation in adapting the show for the UK. I do wonder what cases could have been explored had TPTB of L&O: UK had the freedom to tell its own stories based upon its own cases.

Kind of frustrating when you consider one old episode adapted may have the UK character spouting a Logan line, then in the next episode, perhaps saying a Rey Curtis line. Consistency was hard in such a case.

[Devonte Huntley]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Co-sign. Nicole was just the law of diminishing returns every time she showed her face. This wasn't South Park, where Kenny gets killed every week for laughs. At some point, Nicole either had to be caught for her crimes or die. The constant stretching used to prolong her inexplicable freedom became more and more ridiculous as time passed. NBC really should have let the character go in S4, as seemed to be the case based on the bonus material, instead of doing an audience poll and making another ending, which sadly ended up being used to keep Nicole around.

CI is my favorite spinoff of the bunch. Maybe it makes me odd, but I liked that CI wasn't all action and more cerebral. I know that some classify that to be boring, but...yeah.

And the alternating casts, I think, while inescapable due to VDO's exhaustion, brought different elements to the series. While I did like G/E best, I liked Logan. As I said before, I'm just sad he never had his "Eames", so to speak. Eames went to the mat many times for Goren. Logan never truly had that.

I do recall - as discussed many times over here, that CI was rumored to debut via a 3-way crossover with the Mothership and SVU with some terrorist plot. It was understandably scuttled when 9/11 occurred. Still, as I said, I do wish the idea of a crossover - perhaps with a different case - could have been done. I guess having Logan and Rodgers was considered enough of a connection to the franchise. Them, and the glimpses of Briscoe, Green, Skoda, Branch, Lewin, and Olivet, whom I would have liked to see more of [minus Lewin since she left, obviously, and Briscoe, since Jerry Orbach sadly passed away!].

I know VDO did rave about Julia Ormond (Dr. Paula Gyson), and she was good. But I never understood just why Skoda or Olivet could not have been one of the shrinks Goren visited. Another franchise connection opportunity ignored.

Still, for its flaws, I think CI had its own charm and groove, so to speak. And just maybe being less tied to the franchise gave it a bit more freedom to follow its own path.

So much Nicole hate. :P Makes me wonder how you guys feel about William Lewis on SVU that was Olivia's nemesis. But the way he went out is kind of how I feel Nicole should have went if they were to kill her off. If not, then why bother? But I'm glad Rene Balcer put her to use again on another show, though international and so-so short-lived, and she's out there somewhere to come back for more stories and a better send-off. With CI being over, at least her future appearance won't tack onto that show for you to be bothered by as she would be a newbie to the L&O shows still running she'd be appearing on.

I also liked it when they utilized her even when she didn't physically appear such as in Slither and Frame. I will admit, the Slither episode ended rather silly because she was just there and the cops are just standing around and not chasing after her. I thought that was weird. And Frame had a female college student sort of copying her work, but it was touched on briefly and not a major plot point which seemed like an after thought. I like the Nicole arc because it provided a recurring dark theme to the show that was more than just your standardized open and shut cases of the week. Also, with CI being so cerebral as it was, it seemed only fitting to do something this interesting. I wish Eames was given her own nemesis to spice things up for her even more, some one who'd turn out to be her long-lost son. OOOOH. :D

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Not their fault. They were contractually obligated to reuse old American episodes. Why, I don't know. But that was a stipulation in adapting the show for the UK. I do wonder what cases could have been explored had TPTB of L&O: UK had the freedom to tell its own stories based upon its own cases.

Kind of frustrating when you consider one old episode adapted may have the UK character spouting a Logan line, then in the next episode, perhaps saying a Rey Curtis line. Consistency was hard in such a case.

Wow. Seems redundant. I never watched the show, but did they really copy the lines verbatim like they didn't at least tweak the lines to sound more UK-ish because their English is different than ours. I was aware they re-used L&O plots, but I didn't think they literally xeroxed the scripts other than just provided similar stories based off those scripts with fresher elements that the episodes won't be as noticeable being copies the first time around. But learning from Xelious66 that they use the same names? I guess they did straight up copy the stories and they're lucky L&O was story-driven so character backstories and personal lives were barely utilized to really worry about keeping things synced up when it came to character traits which I'm sure had to be tweaked to a minimum to keep the UK characters consistent. But it's good that they jump around instead of just progressively remaking the episodes in order. Then it just comes off more of a remake. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[WendyCR72]

4 minutes ago, Devonte Huntley said:

Wow. Seems redundant. I never watched the show, but did they really copy the lines verbatim like they didn't at least tweak the lines to sound more UK-ish because their English is different than ours.

Well, some parts of the cases may have been altered or some of the outcomes. But the only true change from the American adaption to the UK adaption was the laws, as some were different in the UK.

As we also talked about here pages back, CI also had a French foreign adaption that worked off of the American episodes. Some of them are up on YouTube. So it wasn't just the Mothership that got the treatment of a foreign adaption. There is also apparently a Russian CI adaption, but there are no videos I have found from that one.

[Devonte Huntley]

I heard about those other adaptions. Pitiful neither of them lasted very long. Why even bother? And I find it odd when a country wants to adapt a spinoff of a show as opposed to the parent show itself.