Law & Order: Criminal Intent - General Discussion

[Xeliou66]

I saw Death Roe today, and I have to say I think Tommy Onorato is one of the most evil perps on CI - he was an epic piece of human waste, murdering his son in law and putting him in the meat grinder, murdering the food critic just to frame his son in law, and all so he could continue to sexually abuse his daughter. He was a total monster, an ogre like Goren said, quite a chilling episode. I like the episode a lot, quite an intricate plot but not overly complicated. I loved Goren’s final confrontation with Tommy and how they got the evidence to arrest Tommy. I think Tommy belongs on the list of worst perps in the history of CI and maybe the whole L&O franchise. 

I did wonder why Duke’s wife never said anything about Tommy attacking her to her husband, and it seemed like she knew about the abuse as well, why didn’t she say anything?

[peacheslatour]

25 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Death Roe today, and I have to say I think Tommy Onorato is one of the most evil perps on CI - he was an epic piece of human waste, murdering his son in law and putting him in the meat grinder, murdering the food critic just to frame his son in law, and all so he could continue to sexually abuse his daughter. He was a total monster, an ogre like Goren said, quite a chilling episode. I like the episode a lot, quite an intricate plot but not overly complicated. I loved Goren’s final confrontation with Tommy and how they got the evidence to arrest Tommy. I think Tommy belongs on the list of worst perps in the history of CI and maybe the whole L&O franchise. 

I did wonder why Duke’s wife never said anything about Tommy attacking her to her husband, and it seemed like she knew about the abuse as well, why didn’t she say anything?

She seemed kind of like she liked the guy. She acted just as messed up as the daughter.

[Xeliou66]

32 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

She seemed kind of like she liked the guy. She acted just as messed up as the daughter.

Yeah her behavior was weird, I didn’t get why she never told her husband about what Tommy had done to her, or why she hadn’t reported him to the police. And did Duke have any idea about Tommy abusing his daughter? 

Season 4 had a bunch of episodes that were weird/creepy/disturbing. Not that that’s a bad thing, season 4 was strong overall but I would say it’s the darkest season of CI. 

[peacheslatour]

28 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah her behavior was weird, I didn’t get why she never told her husband about what Tommy had done to her, or why she hadn’t reported him to the police. And did Duke have any idea about Tommy abusing his daughter? 

Season 4 had a bunch of episodes that were weird/creepy/disturbing. Not that that’s a bad thing, season 4 was strong overall but I would say it’s the darkest season of CI. 

Like when Beatrice was squeezing lemon juice on Tommy's cut? Yeah, that was dark.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Like when Beatrice was squeezing lemon juice on Tommy's cut? Yeah, that was dark.

Yes it was, and the ending scene of the spilled glass of wine I guess it was dripping on to the floor was good imagery to end the episode on. 

Season 4 just seemed to have a boatload of dark-weird-creepy episodes. You have The Posthumous Collection, In the Dark, Want, No Exit, Collective, Magnificat, Death Roe, Shibboleth, maybe even Ex Stasis and Beast would qualify, all of those episodes fit the bill of being dark/strange/creepy. 

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I did wonder why Duke’s wife never said anything about Tommy attacking her to her husband, and it seemed like she knew about the abuse as well, why didn’t she say anything?

Probably the oldest excuse going: That Duke wouldn't believe her and/or want to believe that of his best buddy. As was shown, Duke seemed sure that Tommy was innocent and his wife pointed out it wasn't an act.

Which makes me wonder - as there was compelling evidence of Tommy's guilt - how Duke came to terms with it and if his wife maybe told what happened to her then, etc.

[Xeliou66]

42 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Probably the oldest excuse going: That Duke wouldn't believe her and/or want to believe that of his best buddy. As was shown, Duke seemed sure that Tommy was innocent and his wife pointed out it wasn't an act.

Which makes me wonder - as there was compelling evidence of Tommy's guilt - how Duke came to terms with it and if his wife maybe told what happened to her then, etc.

Yeah that was my guess as well, and I wonder how Duke handled knowing Tommy was guilty of 2 murders and of abusing his daughter, and I wonder if his marriage survived that. I also wonder how Duke didn’t see the signs that Beatrice was being abused, I guess like you said, he didn’t want to believe Tommy was capable of it. Tommy was a total piece of shit, if anyone deserved the death penalty he did, I really hated him and I think he ranks high on the list of worst criminals in the franchise. 

[WendyCR72]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah that was my guess as well, and I wonder how Duke handled knowing Tommy was guilty of 2 murders and of abusing his daughter, and I wonder if his marriage survived that. I also wonder how Duke didn’t see the signs that Beatrice was being abused, I guess like you said, he didn’t want to believe Tommy was capable of it. Tommy was a total piece of shit, if anyone deserved the death penalty he did, I really hated him and I think he ranks high on the list of worst criminals in the franchise. 

Chris Penn played the hell out of it, though. Too bad he died not long after this episode. But hard to believe it was the same guy that played Kevin Bacon's best friend in the original 1984 Footloose.

Still, yeah. Season 4 took a turn into the weird, warped, and creepy.

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Chris Penn played the hell out of it, though. Too bad he died not long after this episode. But hard to believe it was the same guy that played Kevin Bacon's best friend in the original 1984 Footloose.

Still, yeah. Season 4 took a turn into the weird, warped, and creepy.

Do you agree with me about season 4 being the darkest season of CI? There were so many episodes that were disturbing/creepy in one way or another. But overall I thought it was a very good season, I don’t care for the start of it as I don’t like Semi-Detached, I don’t like Great Barrier (I would’ve liked it if they had gone with the ending of Nicole being killed) and Want and The Posthumous Collection aren’t my favorites either, but after that the season became really good IMO. 

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Do you agree with me about season 4 being the darkest season of CI? There were so many episodes that were disturbing/creepy in one way or another. But overall I thought it was a very good season, I don’t care for the start of it as I don’t like Semi-Detached, I don’t like Great Barrier (I would’ve liked it if they had gone with the ending of Nicole being killed) and Want and The Posthumous Collection aren’t my favorites either, but after that the season became really good IMO. 

Minus "The Posthumous Collection" (and I don't know why, because, yeah, it was also dark, but I did like that one!), I agree about the other early S4 episodes you list and agree the public that voted way back on the NBC poll got the ending wrong for "Great Barrier". While that season WAS dark, I think S7 in its own way was even darker.

At least on a psychological level where Bobby was concerned (and literally as it seems that was a season where the lights at MCS were rarely freaking on! Made me wonder, when it moved to USA that season, if it had a reduced budget from NBC.) Although, ironically, I believe I read that S7 was one of the series' highest rated in the USA years. Also darker for Alex in having old wounds with her husband's murder re-opened and having her partnership with Bobby sour for a time. And Logan, of course, left that season. And not happily.

While Wheeler also had issues with her crooked fiancé, I oddly really don't count her misery as that seemed tacked on. It's like once Julianne Nicholson came back after her first maternity leave, the show had no clue what to do with Megan Wheeler. (Aside from the job.) I get you didn't like this period (no judgment, to be clear, just stating a fact! 😋), but for good or bad, the personal stuff colored the season. Yet Wheeler still felt like a void. That's not good.

I think Nola Falacci got more character development in her 6 episodes or so than Megan Wheeler did in two seasons. Even Bobby and Alex were pretty defined by their second season, IMO. But all we knew is, she was Ross' protege that moved to MCS when he came over, was raised by a single mother with a criminal dad (in an episode synopsis but never made it to air) that abandoned them, and had a crooked fiancé and became a single mom herself.

In terms of the character herself, outside of the outer stuff, her personality was never really defined to me. Not blaming Julianne Nicholson, but it's true.

[Xeliou66]

Interesting - I agree that about season 7 I think the characters were in a much darker place that season, but the cases themselves weren’t as dark as season 4’s cases IMO. Season 9 was quite dark as well at times, but season 4 takes the cake IMO for the darkest cases, it seems like almost every other case from that season was extremely creepy-dark-weird in some way. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting - I agree that about season 7 I think the characters were in a much darker place that season, but the cases themselves weren’t as dark as season 4’s cases IMO. Season 9 was quite dark as well at times, but season 4 takes the cake IMO for the darkest cases, it seems like almost every other case from that season was extremely creepy-dark-weird in some way. 

Season 4 was a well of dark and twisted, I agree. When one thinks of the kinky "Sex Club" episode (as an aside Rosanna Arquette did a good job there!) as a lighter reprieve, you know the show got a bit heavy!

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

Season 4 was a well of dark and twisted, I agree. When one thinks of the kinky "Sex Club" episode (as an aside Rosanna Arquette did a good job there!) as a lighter reprieve, you know the show got a bit heavy!

LOL for sure. I’m not sure what the darkest/creepiest episode of season 4 was, but I would say it would probably go to Want or In the Dark, both of those episodes were extremely creepy/weird, and No Exit was incredibly disturbing and dark. There are plenty to choose from from season 4 though. 

[WendyCR72]

The letter scene from "Wee Small Hours" just ended. Kathryn Erbe really sold Alex's anguish at feeling she betrayed her partner. And I loved Bobby's little smile at her and agreement that he was "an acquired taste". Settled like professionals, friends, and adults. So nice.

As an aside, Colm Meany (Judge Garrett) also appeared in the movie, Claire Dolan, with VDO in the '90s.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The letter scene from "Wee Small Hours" just ended. Kathryn Erbe really sold Alex's anguish at feeling she betrayed her partner. And I loved Bobby's little smile at her and agreement that he was "an acquired taste". Settled like professionals, friends, and adults. So nice.

As an aside, Colm Meany (Judge Garrett) also appeared in the movie, Claire Dolan, with VDO in the '90s.

To me he was always the poor man's Gene Hackman.

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The letter scene from "Wee Small Hours" just ended. Kathryn Erbe really sold Alex's anguish at feeling she betrayed her partner. And I loved Bobby's little smile at her and agreement that he was "an acquired taste". Settled like professionals, friends, and adults. So nice.

As an aside, Colm Meany (Judge Garrett) also appeared in the movie, Claire Dolan, with VDO in the '90s.

The guy who played Judge Garrett also played a polygamist Mormon leader in the Mothership episode Lost Boys, an episode that was just being discussed over on the L&O board. 

I love In The Wee Small Hours, and I agree that the deal about Eames requesting a new partner was settled nicely and professionally without unneeded soapy drama. If it had been SVU or even later seasons of CI, it would’ve devolved into soapy melodrama lasting several episodes. 

[WendyCR72]

MyNetwork just finished with "Identity Crisis". We talked of this before, but I really did like how understated it was. Had this episode occurred under Warren Leight as EP, we'd get tons of references to Bobby's own brother and schizophrenic mother.

Instead, Walon Green allowed the episode to be subtle and VDO still managed to convey Bobby's own issues and insecurities when investigating the Burress brothers, like when Anthony's ex mentioned him being damaged goods and Bobby just looked sort of sad.

And I also said this, but the actor that played the murdering brother was really very good.

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

To me he was always the poor man's Gene Hackman.

God, Gene Hackman. There's a name I haven't heard in a while! Hope he is enjoying his retirement.

[LemonSoda]

No Exit still haunts me! More so now that so many people are meeting up with people from apps without speaking. 

[WendyCR72]

57 minutes ago, LemonSoda said:

No Exit still haunts me! More so now that so many people are meeting up with people from apps without speaking. 

Yeah. Still, I think the episode itself is extra creepy because of the suicide web site. Still loved Alex telling the owner of it, who got off with a plea bargain in having to shut the site down, to go do his little dance in hell as Bobby smiled.

[peacheslatour]

7 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Yeah. Still, I think the episode itself is extra creepy because of the suicide web site. Still loved Alex telling the owner of it, who got off with a plea bargain in having to shut the site down, to go do his little dance in hell as Bobby smiled.

I loved that as well. It was perfect.

[WendyCR72]

14 hours ago, LemonSoda said:

No Exit still haunts me! More so now that so many people are meeting up with people from apps without speaking. 

One thing that just occurred to me, most shows from this franchise are "ripped from the headlines". So was there a REAL suicide site, etc.? The thought is both sad and chilling.

[LemonSoda]

7 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

One thing that just occurred to me, most shows from this franchise are "ripped from the headlines". So was there a REAL suicide site, etc.? The thought is both sad and chilling.

Sadly they do exist. 
 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by LemonSoda
Removed a longer paragraph about the real cases because it’s a sensitive topic and I don’t want to upset anyone or lead anyone to dark places if they’re in pain. I love you all! If you’re suffering, anonymous help is out there.

[WendyCR72]

51 minutes ago, LemonSoda said:

Sadly they do exist. 
 

 

Figures.  😞

[WendyCR72]

And on another note, Victoria Carson of "Wrongful Life" really was a piece of work. I bet a cobra would make a better, more-loving mother. But Talia Balsam, a.k.a. Mrs. George Clooney #1, did a great job with the role.

[peacheslatour]

31 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

And on another note, Victoria Carson of "Wrongful Life" really was a piece of work. I bet a cobra would make a better, more-loving mother. But Talia Balsam, a.k.a. Mrs. George Clooney #1, did a great job with the role.

As long as we're talking about Mothers of the Year contestants, how about the mom from Beast? She has two daughters, one is murdered by Balki and she talks about her like she was the most beautiful, cultured, bestest creature who ever lived. Her other daughter, meh, she was nothing. Ugly, stupid and classless. Jeez louise.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah No Exit was disturbing IMO, the opening of the guy being stuck in the car about to get run over by the train was quite horrifying. 

41 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

As long as we're talking about Mothers of the Year contestants, how about the mom from Beast? She has two daughters, one is murdered by Balki and she talks about her like she was the most beautiful, cultured, bestest creature who ever lived. Her other daughter, meh, she was nothing. Ugly, stupid and classless. Jeez louise.

The mom from Beast was a true bitch for sure, she only loved one daughter and treated Colleen like trash. She was an ugly old witch herself and a worthless excuse for a mother. Beast was a twisted episode but it was really good.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Xeliou66

[WendyCR72]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah No Exit was disturbing IMO, the opening of the guy being stuck in the car about to get run over by the train was quite horrifying. 

The mom from Beast was a true bitch for sure, she only loved one daughter and treated Colleen like trash. She was an ugly old witch herself and a worthless excuse for a mother. Beast was a twisted episode but it was really good.

Still wish, when Mark Linn-Baker returned in S6 in "Endgame" as Wally, that we also saw Bronson Pinchot's Gregory. A true Perfect Strangers reunion! LOL! (Okay, maybe it would have been too corny for that episode, considering how dark and twisted it was.)

[Sigmagirl]

So maybe we should have our own Primetimer Awards: LOCI Edition, with categories like creepiest episode, most evil perp, most deranged perp, most sympathetic perp, most annoying victim, funniest scene, best episode, worst episode, whatever. Like the old TWOP Tubey Awards. Anybody interested?

[peacheslatour]

15 minutes ago, Sigmagirl said:

So maybe we should have our own Primetimer Awards: LOCI Edition, with categories like creepiest episode, most evil perp, most deranged perp, most sympathetic perp, most annoying victim, funniest scene, best episode, worst episode, whatever. Like the old TWOP Tubey Awards. Anybody interested?

I'm in.

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Sigmagirl said:

So maybe we should have our own Primetimer Awards: LOCI Edition, with categories like creepiest episode, most evil perp, most deranged perp, most sympathetic perp, most annoying victim, funniest scene, best episode, worst episode, whatever. Like the old TWOP Tubey Awards. Anybody interested?

So many options here! But sounds interesting.  😉

[peacheslatour]

8 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So many options here! But sounds interesting.  😉

I've been thinking of starting a thread about shootings on the courthouse steps. How many episode of CI, SVU and even Mothership either ended or started with somebody getting shot on the courthouse stairs?

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I've been thinking of starting a thread about shootings on the courthouse steps. How many episode of CI, SVU and even Mothership either ended or started with somebody getting shot on the courthouse stairs?

It happened a boatload of times in SVU, either at the courthouse or at the police station. It didn’t happen as often on the Mothership or on CI, but it happened a few times - on the Mothership, someone got killed at the courthouse in The Fertile Fields, Criminal Law, Bitter Fruit to name 3. On CI, someone got killed in the courthouse at the end of Proud Flesh and Slither, I can’t think of any others at the moment. 

[WendyCR72]

And in real life, I don't think I have ever heard of Wild West courtroom shootouts.  🙂 But then, this is all fiction, so...drama! In all of the shootings, at least on the Mothership's end, I am glad the show at least resisted one of the main attorneys being shot and fighting for their lives or whatever.

I guess two dead ADAs were enough.  😉

As for CI, so little ever took place in a courthouse, which is kind of too bad. Had Courtney B. Vance been given more to do, perhaps he would not have left. But then, I read about Warren Leight's distaste for courtroom stuff, so...yeah. (But if he hates it so much, why the hell be EP of shows that used that very formula?!)

[WendyCR72]

Speaking of Carver above, I'm rather shocked he never really got an arc of his own, even work related. Oh, he had scenes with Arthur Branch in "Wee...", but no real arc.

Courtney B. Vance certainly had the talent. I don't know what kind of story, but as he did mention a wife and kids, maybe his family could be threatened during a case he is trying and go from there?

Just seemed a shame he became so peripheral, especially since Vance was so compelling in the Mothership episode, "Rage".

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Speaking of Carver above, I'm rather shocked he never really got an arc of his own, even work related. Oh, he had scenes with Arthur Branch in "Wee...", but no real arc.

Courtney B. Vance certainly had the talent. I don't know what kind of story, but as he did mention a wife and kids, maybe his family could be threatened during a case he is trying and go from there?

Just seemed a shame he became so peripheral, especially since Vance was so compelling in the Mothership episode, "Rage".

The closest we got to a personal case for Carver was in Best Defense, given that he was friends with Peter Bonham.

While I never cared for personal stuff, I would’ve liked to have seen Carver used more and I wouldn’t have minded a personal storyline for him since we didn’t get much of him. I wish CI had gone into the courtroom more or had more legal stuff, there was never enough legal material and we only saw trials in 2 episodes (The Good Doctor and In The Wee Small Hours pt 2), I wish there had been more of Carver in the courtroom. And it was disappointing how they never addressed why Carver left, and that they didn’t replace him. Carver and Deakins brought a lot to the show, and both were underappreciated and underused. 

[peacheslatour]

On 6/14/2020 at 6:25 PM, WendyCR72 said:

And in real life, I don't think I have ever heard of Wild West courtroom shootouts.  🙂 But then, this is all fiction, so...drama! In all of the shootings, at least on the Mothership's end, I am glad the show at least resisted one of the main attorneys being shot and fighting for their lives or whatever.

I guess two dead ADAs were enough.  😉

As for CI, so little ever took place in a courthouse, which is kind of too bad. Had Courtney B. Vance been given more to do, perhaps he would not have left. But then, I read about Warren Leight's distaste for courtroom stuff, so...yeah. (But if he hates it so much, why the hell be EP of shows that used that very formula?!)

I felt the same way about Jamey Sheridan. I disliked Eric Bogosian so intensely that I wanted something bad to happen to his character. And then it did. 

[WendyCR72]

On 6/17/2020 at 10:35 PM, Xeliou66 said:

The closest we got to a personal case for Carver was in Best Defense, given that he was friends with Peter Bonham.

While I never cared for personal stuff, I would’ve liked to have seen Carver used more and I wouldn’t have minded a personal storyline for him since we didn’t get much of him. I wish CI had gone into the courtroom more or had more legal stuff, there was never enough legal material and we only saw trials in 2 episodes (The Good Doctor and In The Wee Small Hours pt 2), I wish there had been more of Carver in the courtroom. And it was disappointing how they never addressed why Carver left, and that they didn’t replace him. Carver and Deakins brought a lot to the show, and both were underappreciated and underused. 

Well, CI probably did not have much court stuff for the same reason that SVU has curbed it: Warren Leight. He has been known to not like the courtroom stuff. And while Rene Balcer was the EP for the first five seasons, I believe Leight joined the show...around S3 in some producer role? So maybe he had input. Or maybe not.

Either way, Carver really had little to do.

As for Deakins, while he was also mainly a desk jockey, he did get some good stuff in "My Good Name" and "On Fire", etc. Maybe if Deakins/Jamey Sheridan had the kind of screen time that Ross/Eric Bogosian got as captain, he would have stayed.

I did like Joseph Hannah in S10, though. His approach seemed more laid back a la Deakins than in your face like Ross.

[Xeliou66]

I don’t think the lack of legal stuff had much to do with Warren Leight, he didn’t take over until season 6, I think it had more to do with the format of the show being so centered on Goren and Eames unraveling the case that they didn’t have time to show court stuff, but I wish they had made time more often for that, Carver was a really good character and he was almost always underused. I would’ve liked to have seen more of him in court. I do think Warren was the reason the ADA position wasn’t replaced in season 6.

Deakins was sorely missed as well when he was gone, he was underused as well, at least he got some episodes where he was heavily featured and got an exit story even if it wasn’t a great one. Making Deakins’ absence worse was the fact that he was replaced by asswipe Ross, who not only was a condescending dick to the detectives most of the time but got way more screentime than Deakins did. Ross was a dick and I felt nothing when he got whacked. I agree about Hannah in season 10, he was a good captain and reminded me of Deakins in some ways. Zoe Callas in season 9 was so forgettable and boring, she never added anything to the show. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Zoe Callas in season 9 was so forgettable and boring, she never added anything to the show. 

Which is both a shame and a bit mystifying as Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio has been good in other roles. But then, Season 9 was so devoid of energy - and had mostly new writers from what I gathered (I guess a lot of the old ones returned for the S10 send off) - and it showed.

This show did have the irritating habit of not mentioning departed characters, though, as much as I do/did like the show.

Carver leaves - and the only reference was the brief new ADA saying he referred to Major Case as "Major Hunch". No explanation of why he left, etc.

The new ADA herself was here - then gone.

Megan Wheeler went to have her baby - and then no explanation as to her leaving the job. Not even that she wanted to stay at home with her new baby. Just Wheeler's water breaking and her exit having the character give birth with Eames announcing the kid's name. (I did like the little scene of Alex noticing Megan's water breaking and taking charge, asking Wheeler what hospital, etc., as Nichols and Ross stupidly stood there and started at where Wheeler's water broke as Alex chided, "Detectives!" It was nice to have a little humor again for a second.)

As depressing as it was, at least Goren and Eames did get an exit in S9. But then that sucked so much that they returned for the fans to give them a better ending, so... And with the newer ending, there was zero explanation about Callas, Nichols, and Stevens and why Hannah took over or how Goren and Eames were reinstated, etc. (I honestly didn't miss Nichols, Stevens, or Callas, but considering they did head an entire season, you'd think the writers would have at least mentioned their fates in passing, especially since, in one episode, Zoe Callas made a big deal about possibly "having [her] name removed from the door" after Nichols/Stevens did something or other... So it did not seem like she would want to leave as captain of MCS.)

I guess if one is creative, at least this show gives fanfic writers loads of these holes to fill as they see fit. LOL!

[Dirtybubble]

That's one of the things that has always bugged me about the Law & Order shows and spin offs--the changing of characters with no real explanation as to why.  One instance in particular that has always bugged me is why Logan's partner Barek left.  She was just gone.  And all I remember was a smug little comment Ross made to Logan about bringing her back and Logan made a weird face as if he didn't want her to come back....soooo wtf?  What happened??

The CSI shows were always good at really explaining why characters left.  Even when one of them dies there was always some sort of memorial or something to remember them not just swept under the rug and pretend like they never existed. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

That's one of the things that has always bugged me about the Law & Order shows and spin offs--the changing of characters with no real explanation as to why.  One instance in particular that has always bugged me is why Logan's partner Barek left.  She was just gone.  And all I remember was a smug little comment Ross made to Logan about bringing her back and Logan made a weird face as if he didn't want her to come back....soooo wtf?  What happened??

In light of what I’ve read about how that fuckface Weinstein raped Sciorra, I think maybe she was suffering PTSD? But yeah, it would have been nice if Show could have told us why. Wheeler’s absence and departure was the only explanation we got. Well, I can’t speak for season 9 because I stopped watching shortly before. This show was the only one that never told us. 🙄😒😒😒😒

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I don’t think the lack of legal stuff had much to do with Warren Leight, he didn’t take over until season 6, I think it had more to do with the format of the show being so centered on Goren and Eames unraveling the case that they didn’t have time to show court stuff, but I wish they had made time more often for that, Carver was a really good character and he was almost always underused. I would’ve liked to have seen more of him in court. I do think Warren was the reason the ADA position wasn’t replaced in season 6.

Deakins was sorely missed as well when he was gone, he was underused as well, at least he got some episodes where he was heavily featured and got an exit story even if it wasn’t a great one. Making Deakins’ absence worse was the fact that he was replaced by asswipe Ross, who not only was a condescending dick to the detectives most of the time but got way more screentime than Deakins did. Ross was a dick and I felt nothing when he got whacked. I agree about Hannah in season 10, he was a good captain and reminded me of Deakins in some ways. Zoe Callas in season 9 was so forgettable and boring, she never added anything to the show. 

I don’t even know why Wolf bothered to include it as part of the Law & Order franchise, since there was no ORDER. Two measly cases don’t count.

Having Carver say they didn’t have the evidence or there was no case, or the few bumping of heads with Goren, DOES.NOT.COUNT.

Vance was VASTLY underused. And he also appeared in the unofficial pilot of the mother ship-“Everybody’s Favorite Bagman”as the Mayor’s stooge who tried to get Stone to back away from the Halsey case.

It’s the main reason why I couldn’t get into this show and didn’t start watching until Logan shows up in season 4’s Stress Position”, because 🥰❤️🥰MIKE!!!🥰❤️🥰 Then the Logan years. And caught up on the rest in syndication.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

In light of what I’ve read about how that fuckface Weinstein raped Sciorra, I think maybe she was suffering PTSD?

Not that that isn't possible, as it NEVER goes away, but Weinstein the pig raped her in the early to mid '90s, and she wasn't on CI until a decade later. So, while it could be as you say, maybe she just wasn't happy with the role.

If I recall, the audience didn't seem to take to Barek all that well. But who knows.

Still, yeah. We discussed this at length, but Logan's odd look after Ross mentioned getting Barek back was just weird, since they seemed fine at the end of S5.

Yes, Logan did make a pass at her as he was lashing out over his shooting a cop, but she called him out, he talked to Olivet, and all was fine. So Logan's weird look made absolutely no sense.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah the line from Ross about getting Barek back and Logan’s expression was really weird and unexplained, Logan and Barek were on fine times at the end of season 5 so that really made no sense and I didn’t like it. 

The show did have a bad record of not explaining why characters left - no explanation for Barek, no explanation for Carver which really pissed me off, no explanation for why Wheeler didn’t return, and no explanation for Callas leaving before season 10, I believe Nichols and Stevens were still with Major Case when the show ended, we just weren’t seeing their cases anymore. 

The Mothership was much better about letting us know what happened to characters, although we didn’t find out why Cragen and Robinette left until a couple of seasons after they were gone. And we didn’t find out why exactly Arthur Branch stepped down from his position as DA. 

[WendyCR72]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The show did have a bad record of not explaining why characters left - no explanation for Barek, no explanation for Carver which really pissed me off, no explanation for why Wheeler didn’t return, and no explanation for Callas leaving before season 10, I believe Nichols and Stevens were still with Major Case when the show ended, we just weren’t seeing their cases anymore. 

Good point about Nichols/Stevens.

As for Wheeler, I agree, obviously. But maybe her lack of explanation could be mitigated by the fact that S8 was the year another Writers' Strike happened. (In 2008.) So perhaps something was planned and scrapped?

Yeah, I doubt it, too. But in the case of a strike, one never can tell.

[Xeliou66]

It was inexcusable to not have one line telling us what happened to the characters that departed, it’s not hard to let us know what happened to them. 

About Carver and Deakins, they were terribly underused, and both were sorely missed when they left - the show sharply declined after season 5, not only because of the change in showrunners but because of the absence of Deakins and Carver, they were both great characters who added a lot to the show despite not having many scenes - and it hurt that they didn’t replace Carver and just dropped the legal stuff, and then replacing Deakins with Douchebag Ross was such a massive drop off, and it pissed me off that they then gave Ross a boatload of screen time that Deakins never got. 

[WendyCR72]

Ah, I see the WE late-night mini marathon is back, at least tomorrow, from 1:00 a.m. to 4:00 a.m. ETA: Marathon goes 'til 4. So set the DVR if you want to.

[Dirtybubble]

On 6/21/2020 at 12:04 AM, Xeliou66 said:

It was inexcusable to not have one line telling us what happened to the characters that departed, it’s not hard to let us know what happened to them. 

About Carver and Deakins, they were terribly underused, and both were sorely missed when they left - the show sharply declined after season 5, not only because of the change in showrunners but because of the absence of Deakins and Carver, they were both great characters who added a lot to the show despite not having many scenes - and it hurt that they didn’t replace Carver and just dropped the legal stuff, and then replacing Deakins with Douchebag Ross was such a massive drop off, and it pissed me off that they then gave Ross a boatload of screen time that Deakins never got. 

LoL--well I must be the only person on the planet that liked Capt. Ross!  Yeah he was a lot different than Deakins--he was in your face, gruff, but IDK I just liked him. He was captain around the time Bobby was going off the rails and Ross called him out for his behavior.  We the audience understood why Goren was doing the things he was doing but Ross didn't so understand how frustrating that was for him.  Plus he did help Goren out on numerous occasions (the whole going to prison for his nephew story line, getting Goren reinstated, etc.)

I also liked more personal story lines for each character as I never wanted to watch just a cops and robbers show.  I liked to know a little more personal stuff with each character (another reason why I liked the CSI shows so much) and I really liked the little fling that Ross and Rogers had.  I just wish Goren and especially Eames could have had a little side romance for their characters.  I mean we had a little something for Wheeler and Logan (however brief and sad it was) but still throw the 2 main characters a bone for pete's sake! 

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, Dirtybubble said:

LoL--well I must be the only person on the planet that liked Capt. Ross!  Yeah he was a lot different than Deakins--he was in your face, gruff, but IDK I just liked him. He was captain around the time Bobby was going off the rails and Ross called him out for his behavior.  We the audience understood why Goren was doing the things he was doing but Ross didn't so understand how frustrating that was for him.  Plus he did help Goren out on numerous occasions (the whole going to prison for his nephew story line, getting Goren reinstated, etc.)

I also liked more personal story lines for each character as I never wanted to watch just a cops and robbers show.  I liked to know a little more personal stuff with each character (another reason why I liked the CSI shows so much) and I really liked the little fling that Ross and Rogers had.  I just wish Goren and especially Eames could have had a little side romance for their characters.  I mean we had a little something for Wheeler and Logan (however brief and sad it was) but still throw the 2 main characters a bone for pete's sake! 

I couldn’t disagree more with everything you said. I hated Ross, he was a condescending, smug douche to everyone, and the thought of a romance between the awesome ME Rodgers and Captain Douchebag is sickening IMO. And I hate romance storylines and was glad CI never brought romance in much, if I wanted romance I would watch the Hallmark channel or something. I don’t like personal soapy shit, it’s why I really dislike seasons 6-7 of CI for the most part.

[WendyCR72]

Obviously, I know practically nothing of Frank Sinatra music, but while I knew "In The Wee Small Hours" had Ethan Garrett use Sinatra references in his blog and such, I never knew Sinatra actually had a song called...

"In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning".

Until I just saw the title on one of the SiriusXM channels. So, clever tie in even using a Sinatra title for the episode.

[WendyCR72]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Plus he did help Goren out on numerous occasions (the whole going to prison for his nephew story line, getting Goren reinstated, etc.)

Okay, Ross did help reinstate him. But since Ross was the one that sent Bobby's nephew back to prison - when Bobby made it known it was a danger - IMO, Goren's suspension was also partially set in motion by Ross to begin with, since Ross doing that is what made Bobby decide to go undercover at Tates in the first place.

Sorry, but if that relative was Nichols' or Wheeler's, I think Ross would have proceeded differently. To me, he clearly had a bias against Bobby. Yeah, Bobby and Ross clashed and Bobby contributed to a lot of it, but considering Ross was hounding Eames about Goren in his very first episode? It seems like he had already made his mind up about Goren and listened to the bigwigs upstairs instead of forming his own opinion over time.

(Edited to say, the quote I was responding to had @Xeliou66 as the quote author and I know that is not true as it was @Dirtybubble! So the board just had a fart, I guess!)